Character Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

Shulk maybe yes but ROY?!

I mean we were JUST talking about how Roy was over-rated. He's decent, has throw combos and good mobility but not the secret high/top tier peeps thought he was gonna be. He's still our boy though. <3

In terms of DLC I think is the best, followed by either or (probably Roy first but not sure at this stage) followed by .

Versing a Ryu who's good at FAC and flame circle Hadouken (as well as obviously TSRK) is quite scary, really. Having that kind of powerful OoS is certainly an asset - but I do still worry about his mobility causing him issues in the long run in some MUs.

 

[|RK|]

The only thing that Luigi has to respect is Charge Shot and Z-air. Missiles are stuffed by Fireballs, her rolls are awesomely slow, she dies fairly early for a heavyweight from HooHahNado (Let's be honest. If falling speed matters so much that Falcon dies later than Ganon vertically, then being floaty is a big no-no against HooHahNado). She is easy to combo depsite floatiness, easy to gimp (Traded D-air with her SA once), easy to kill, and... yeah.

She has Charge Shot and Z-air to keep Luigi at bay, but Samus struggles to get Luigi off her face and she misses a grab = stock taken.

I don't think Luigi loses to Samus. I see it as even. If we are going to seriously base our opinions straight on that one single match, then the MU chart would've been screwed (X 2-stocked Y! So this MU is in X favor!).

Or it's me who is insane right now. I slept at like 11 PM last night.


Luigi has U-smash, D-smash, dash attack, and Cyclone to separate Luma from Rosalina.

I suppose optimal Luigi play: Fireballs over Luma, get in when she does a mistake, U-smash/Cyclone, then grab.

I wonder if this will be exploited in the future...

I'm not necessarily saying Samus wins - just that it doesn't seem terrible. Missles shouldn't really be used vs Luigi at close range anyways. They cancel each other, sure - but they aren't really expected to hit most of the time. Samus has an awful roll - I just use bombs to cover my retreat. That's part of what allows projectiles in the first place.

As for dying later to Nado... well, maybe that's because I'm a Kirby main used to dying pretty early, lol. Samus living at like 110% (without getting hit with the weaker part) was strange to me.

 

[webbedspace]

Having watched both KTAR and WTFox I'm amused to see that the "Stall Villager" build appeared on both streams, and was defeated on both streams (Player-1 was defeated by Wizzrobe, and CaptnAwesum was defeated by DKWill twice - once with Wind Kong, once with Sheik). Neither Villagers stuck exclusively to ledge-stalling, instead switching between a mix of ledge-stalling, center-stage stalling, and more usual offensive maneuvers - often forcing the opponent to ledge-stall in order to break through their defenses.

It occurs to me that the Stall Villager is not, as many claim, an aberration in the Smash roster - their gameplan is remarkably similar to Pac-Man's gameplan. In fact, I feel like Stall Villager is what Pac-Man wants to be, but cannot - controlling the ground with the sapling instead of Trampoline, forcing space with Pushy Lloid instead of Hydrant, harassing with f-air instead of Bonus Fruit. If Pac-Man was stronger and more popular, people would probably be booing and hissing just as much as they have for Stall Villager.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He's not bad, just not nearly as good as people hyped him to be.

I don't see where this is coming from at all

Due to where his sweespots are placed he gets punished for accurate spacing and good decision making.

Just let that sink in for a brief moment.

And then you multiply that fundamental hole in his character design with the fact that bad play generally tends to get rewarded in smash 4 via rage mechanics and you have a combination of attributes that may very well rival Mewtwo's in terms of how crippling they are [OK, probably not quite as bad but you get the idea].

He's a deeply disfunctional character whose saving graces are his mobility and a few truly great moves like dthrow or Jab.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So Roy is actually kinda bad.

Discuss.

When will people start listening to me?

 

[thehard]

Having watched both KTAR and WTFox I'm amused to see that the "Stall Villager" build appeared on both streams, and was defeated on both streams (Player-1 was defeated by Wizzrobe, and CaptnAwesum was defeated by DKWill twice - once with Wind Kong, once with Sheik). Neither Villagers stuck exclusively to ledge-stalling, instead switching between a mix of ledge-stalling, center-stage stalling, and more usual offensive maneuvers - often forcing the opponent to ledge-stall in order to break through their defenses.

It occurs to me that the Stall Villager is not, as many claim, an aberration in the Smash roster - their gameplan is remarkably similar to Pac-Man's gameplan. In fact, I feel like Stall Villager is what Pac-Man wants to be, but cannot - controlling the ground with the sapling instead of Trampoline, forcing space with Pushy Lloid instead of Hydrant, harassing with f-air instead of Bonus Fruit. If Pac-Man was stronger and more popular, people would probably be booing and hissing just as much as they have for Stall Villager.

I get the feeling default Villager vs default DK would look worse. Don't think DK can answer to f-air well in any format.

I noticed Nairo using Guiding Bow on stream, that move looks like it has some nice frame trap potential.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also he is not bad. He just isn't the hero of the Fire Emblem crew.

He is not unsafe though. He actually has some of the safest pokes out of the entire cast.

 

[meleebrawler]

Due to where his sweespots are placed he gets punished for accurate spacing and good decision making.

Just let that sink in for a brief moment.

And then you multiply that fundamental hole in his character design with the fact that bad play generally tends to get rewarded in smash 4 via rage mechanics and you have a combination of attributes that may very well rival Mewtwo's in terms of how crippling they are [OK, probably not quite as bad but you get the idea].

He's a deeply disfunctional character whose saving graces are his mobility and a few truly great moves like dthrow or Jab.

Just because he's a swordie who doesn't benefit as much from the usual spacing game they play doesn't make him disfunctional.
He basically plays a brawler archetype like Mario but has the benefit of complete disjoints on all moves. He has arguably the best mobility of all swordies on offence and if you make even a small mistake it's not too difficult for him to KO you before rage even begins to become an issue.

What really holds him back in my eyes is his sub-par air game.

Also he is not bad. He just isn't the hero of the Fire Emblem crew.

He is not unsafe though. He actually has some of the safest pokes out of the entire cast.

Dtilt FTW. Flare Blade also gives some very solid mindgames even if you are aware of the move's near nonexistent endlag.

 

[Firefoxx]

Roy seems like one of the best characters to get people from 0 to 50-60% in a flash. And then he's pretty lacking since you have to basically fall into him or blindly attack his shield for him to then your stock that early. And with his recovery, plus how weak aerial Blazer is (outside of that max rage first hit only nonsense), you can basically just trade with any lingering aerial and take his stock.

He's pretty good, but that's probably it.

Edit: Oh and his garbage disadvantage state and easily combo'd physics aren't things that can be easily glossed over.

Flare Blade also gives some very solid mindgames even if you are aware of the move's near nonexistent endlag.

While Flare Blade is pretty sweet in this game, 19 frames of endlag on a move that hits on frames 23-26 at the earliest isn't really the definition of safety.

Or maybe it is against anyone who doesn't have Falcon's dash grab.

 

[Kofu]

While Flare Blade is pretty sweet in this game, 19 frames of endlag on a move that hits on frames 23-26 at the earliest isn't really the definition of safety.

Or maybe it is against anyone who doesn't have Falcon's dash grab.

I don't know how long it takes to come out from releasing the charge but that's also a factor. It sounds a little similar to Game & Watch's USmash in functionality: a move that's pretty slow on startup but makes up for it with other factors that give it surprising safety and low end lag. In Flare Blade's case it's a fairly nice hitbox with the fact that the move is very, very scary if charged (it can be started in the air which is nice, too).

 

[Nobie]

I think Roy's character is just meant to be one that takes risk, though whether that's a crippling flaw or not is debatable. I think where Roy actually suffers the most is against his fellow swordsmen. He might have overall fantastic mobility, and I think his closer sweetspot isn't that bad when you can KILL with forward tilt at a reasonable percent, but he still has to deal with the fact that Marth and friends excel at keeping people at just the right distance, and for Marth in particular it's especially dangerous for Roy. Though, I think that even Lucina presents a threat to Roy and there the matchup might be anywhere between even to slightly in Lucina's favor. She doesn't have monster tipper rewards, but it's not that hard for Lucina to push Roy out, especially because of her even blade. That's mostly my theorycrafting though, so don't listen to me too much.

People love throw combos, and the fact that Roy is so nimble and has those throw combos and indeed hits like a truck up close makes people automatically think that he's fantastic. I think everyone who picks up Roy for the first time and just like, jumps forward, notices how different things are.

Also, I think that Roy's sword being the way it is doesn't seem like that much of a flaw, just because his rewards on hitting properly are so damn high. If you happen to hit with the weak part of the sword, it's still kind of okay knockback, and it feels more like a bonus than a missed opportunity. "If I had been using a non-sword character, that wouldn't have hit at all."

 

[Luigi player]

Many people including me at first thought that Luigi was terrible in Smash4. He just felt really bad while playing him. His downB got slowed down, it was more difficult to mash and you couldn't do it at all without a second jump. His upB killed at 80 earliest, etc.

But that was just wrong. He was probably still top 15-20 at the time, it's just that pretty much nobody really tried to play him or got used to his new style.

I started playing him at the end of the 3DS days (shortly before the first patch and the Wii U version) and I can tell you this:

- he still had his nice dthrow combos (though not as consistently, but most of the time almost worked the same)
- he still had his great Fireball and dashgrab, and jabs, and usmash, and like almost everything he has now...
- though he did have worse KO power because of vertical vectoring. Dthrow to downB was probably not even a combo (at KO-%) and couldn't really KO, and usmash and upB were kinda weak, same with fsmash (like most KO moves that KOed off the top).

His fair got a bigger hitbox which was awesome, but his fair was still a great move before regardless. His biggest gains were no vertical vectoring for mostly vertical-hitting moves. DownB being able to KO, dthrow having easier followups, upB actually being useful, etc.
But even without all of this Luigi was still a good character. I'm sure you can imagine this with how good he is now (even though he might be a little overrated imo). He still had dthrow to double fair or fair -> uair etc. Luigi isn't only good because of being able to KO you with dthrow to downB (which is only somewhat reliable in the first place against many characters). And yeah his weak attacks were giving him some trouble which made him worse, but that still doesn't make him that much worse.
Keep in mind every character had a harder time KOing because of vertical vectoring and the blastzones on the 3DS are bigger (further away) too.

Here's a friendly match I had in the 3DS days if you want to get a quick view of what Luigi could always do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjPSKXtlowc [not the best quality though] (this was when I first started picking up Luigi and only had a little plan of what I'm doing (like ~2-3 hours of playtime))

 

[A2ZOMG]

Many people including me at first thought that Luigi was terrible in Smash4. He just felt really bad while playing him. His downB got slowed down, it was more difficult to mash and you couldn't do it at all without a second jump. His upB killed at 80 earliest, etc.

But that was just wrong. He was probably still top 15-20 at the time, it's just that pretty much nobody really tried to play him or got used to his new style.

I started playing him at the end of the 3DS days (shortly before the first patch and the Wii U version) and I can tell you this:

- he still had his nice dthrow combos (though not as consistently, but most of the time almost worked the same)
- he still had his great Fireball and dashgrab, and jabs, and usmash, and like almost everything he has now...
- though he did have worse KO power because of vertical vectoring. Dthrow to downB was probably not even a combo (at KO-%) and couldn't really KO, and usmash and upB were kinda weak, same with fsmash (like most KO moves that KOed off the top).

His fair got a bigger hitbox which was awesome, but his fair was still a great move before regardless. His biggest gains were no vertical vectoring for mostly vertical-hitting moves. DownB being able to KO, dthrow having easier followups, upB actually being useful, etc.
But even without all of this Luigi was still a good character. I'm sure you can imagine this with how good he is now (even though he might be a little overrated imo). He still had dthrow to double fair or fair -> uair etc. Luigi isn't only good because of being able to KO you with dthrow to downB (which is only somewhat reliable in the first place against many characters). And yeah his weak attacks were giving him some trouble which made him worse, but that still doesn't make him that much worse.
Keep in mind every character had a harder time KOing because of vertical vectoring and the blastzones on the 3DS are bigger (further away) too.

Here's a friendly match I had in the 3DS days if you want to get a quick view of what Luigi could always do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjPSKXtlowc [not the best quality though] (this was when I first started picking up Luigi and only had a little plan of what I'm doing (like ~2-3 hours of playtime))

I was one of the first people to say he was underrated. Even 3DS era when vectoring semi-screwed him, he still had notably above average grab followups and back then I could tell his Fireball was crazy good.

I have no idea in contrast how anyone came to the conclusion that 3DS era Mario however was any good. Character generally speaking suffered from bigger blastzones and vectoring making him pointless.

Also he is not bad. He just isn't the hero of the Fire Emblem crew.

He is not unsafe though. He actually has some of the safest pokes out of the entire cast.

Roy's stuff however is only really safe at tipper range, where he has low hitlag modifiers but also his reward is pretty crappy at tipper range.

And Roy's greatest strength is also one of his biggest downfalls for being a really strong competitive character: his grab game. Yes he gets great position advantage from D-throw and all, but his D-throw at the same time isn't perfect. He still has to actually guess for the KO.

Throw in his generally terrible disadvantage state, notably how vulnerable he is to being comboed and juggled, (his recovery at least is passable, but it's still not very good and doesn't let him edgeguard very deep) he's the worst of the 3 new DLC characters.

Roy seems like one of the best characters to get people from 0 to 50-60% in a flash. And then he's pretty lacking since you have to basically fall into him or blindly attack his shield for him to then your stock that early. And with his recovery, plus how weak aerial Blazer is (outside of that max rage first hit only nonsense), you can basically just trade with any lingering aerial and take his stock.

To be honest if you want to take people from 0 to 50-60 in a flash, aside from the obvious Luigi, you're better off playing Link or Ike.

 

[meleebrawler]

Roy's stuff however is only really safe at tipper range, where he has low hitlag modifiers but also his reward is pretty crappy at tipper range.

And Roy's greatest strength is also one of his biggest downfalls for being a really strong competitive character: his grab game. Yes he gets great position advantage from D-throw and all, but his D-throw at the same time isn't perfect. He still has to actually guess for the KO.

Throw in his generally terrible disadvantage state, notably how vulnerable he is to being comboed and juggled, (his recovery at least is passable, but it's still not very good and doesn't let him edgeguard very deep) he's the worst of the 3 new DLC characters.

Or if they just won't die just Uthrow and be done with it. Or use Fthrow if they're dodging your dthrow followups.

 

[Vipermoon]

Roy's stuff however is only really safe at tipper range, where he has low hitlag modifiers but also his reward is pretty crappy at tipper range.

And Roy's greatest strength is also one of his biggest downfalls for being a really strong competitive character: his grab game. Yes he gets great position advantage from D-throw and all, but his D-throw at the same time isn't perfect. He still has to actually guess for the KO.

Throw in his generally terrible disadvantage state, notably how vulnerable he is to being comboed and juggled, (his recovery at least is passable, but it's still not very good and doesn't let him edgeguard very deep) he's the worst of the 3 new DLC characters.

To be honest if you want to take people from 0 to 50-60 in a flash, aside from the obvious Luigi, you're better off playing Link or Ike.

His sweetspots seem to do insane levels of shield pushback. I don't know why. But it seems like he can't be shield grabbed sometimes even with the hitlag modifier.

One of Roy's biggest issues with his throws are that they both send you in front of Roy. There really isn't a DI mix-up here. Just DI forward.

Or if they just won't die just Uthrow and be done with it. Or use Fthrow if they're dodging your dthrow followups.

Uthrow is weaker than Marth's btw and has a more DI'able angle. That makes me happy.

 

[A_Kae]

His sweetspots seem to do insane levels of shield pushback. I don't know why. But it seems like he can't be shield grabbed sometimes even with the hitlag modifier.

One of Roy's biggest issues with his throws are that they both send you in front of Roy. There really isn't a DI mix-up here. Just DI forward.



Uthrow is weaker than Marth's btw and has a more DI'able angle. That makes me happy.

More damage = more shield pushback. That's all there is to it.

And to put some numbers to the uthrows:

Marth's Uthrow:

Damage: 4
Angle: 93
BKB: 70
KBG: 120​

Roy's Uthrow:

Damage: 6
Angle: 97
BKB: 60
KBG: 100​

Roy's throw does a bit less knockback than Marth's, and has a worse angle.

 

[Firefoxx]

And Roy's greatest strength is also one of his biggest downfalls for being a really strong competitive character: his grab game. Yes he gets great position advantage from D-throw and all, but his D-throw at the same time isn't perfect. He still has to actually guess for the KO.

To (sort of) add on to this a little, his great throw game is also held back by a very obvious plan of attack. If he runs at you, the only thing you really have to be scared of is his dash grab. His dash attack is pretty slow and has very large endlag, DED requires very precise spacing to make function properly and even then it still doesn't work very well, and his aerial approach options aren't that great and put him in position to get combo'd very easily.

 

[Vipermoon]

DED works very well. Each hit does consistently 1% less than Marth and it has more consistent knockback. If Marth's works well (which it does), Roy's does too. Roy's can be used in the 100%s, Marth's not very reliably. They are otherwise exactly the same. Overall Marth's is better because damage and ability to kill.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I haven't made my conclusion on Roy just yet. There's areas that he struggles in and there's areas in which he thrives. I have a hard time just straight up calling him bad.

 

[Luco]

I always thought was still rewarded for good spacing but got more when his opponent was closer, but if his sourspots are noticeably unsafe on shield then he's in a bad position because of hit-stun making him more unsafe than just doing nothing... Speaking of which, What might tomahawking do for Roy?

Also, just a daily reminder everyone - look more closely at the message than at the messenger status (in other words, don't let your pre-conceptions of a poster destroy any chance they have of making a 'good post' in your eyes). It shows in this thread when people have angsty complaints with one another because they tend to start on 'opposite ends of the pitch' when it comes to discussions purely because of what the other person is saying. Don't be like that. Don't fall into the (unfortunately common) trap of registering messenger status purely before the message.

Even posters with out-there ideas have very important things to say that often get completely dis-regarded because people filter those people's posts with a bias.

 

[Firefoxx]

DED works very well. Each hit does consistently 1% less than Marth and it has more consistent knockback. If Marth's works well (which it does), Roy's does too. Roy's can be used in the 100%s, Marth's not very reliably. They are otherwise exactly the same. Overall Marth's is better because damage and ability to kill.

I have not experienced this consistency, but I'll be sure to re-examine it

Regardless of all of his problems, Roy will never be "bad." He simply has too much mobility and power (and a recovery that isn't Mac-tier) to not have an impact on the meta. And when you get on a roll and can get the right reads he's downright devastating.

 

[Yonder]

Many people including me at first thought that Luigi was terrible in Smash4. He just felt really bad while playing him. His downB got slowed down, it was more difficult to mash and you couldn't do it at all without a second jump. His upB killed at 80 earliest, etc.

But that was just wrong. He was probably still top 15-20 at the time, it's just that pretty much nobody really tried to play him or got used to his new style.

I started playing him at the end of the 3DS days (shortly before the first patch and the Wii U version) and I can tell you this:

- he still had his nice dthrow combos (though not as consistently, but most of the time almost worked the same)
- he still had his great Fireball and dashgrab, and jabs, and usmash, and like almost everything he has now...
- though he did have worse KO power because of vertical vectoring. Dthrow to downB was probably not even a combo (at KO-%) and couldn't really KO, and usmash and upB were kinda weak, same with fsmash (like most KO moves that KOed off the top).

His fair got a bigger hitbox which was awesome, but his fair was still a great move before regardless. His biggest gains were no vertical vectoring for mostly vertical-hitting moves. DownB being able to KO, dthrow having easier followups, upB actually being useful, etc.
But even without all of this Luigi was still a good character. I'm sure you can imagine this with how good he is now (even though he might be a little overrated imo). He still had dthrow to double fair or fair -> uair etc. Luigi isn't only good because of being able to KO you with dthrow to downB (which is only somewhat reliable in the first place against many characters). And yeah his weak attacks were giving him some trouble which made him worse, but that still doesn't make him that much worse.
Keep in mind every character had a harder time KOing because of vertical vectoring and the blastzones on the 3DS are bigger (further away) too.

Here's a friendly match I had in the 3DS days if you want to get a quick view of what Luigi could always do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjPSKXtlowc [not the best quality though] (this was when I first started picking up Luigi and only had a little plan of what I'm doing (like ~2-3 hours of playtime))

I defended Luigi to the death back in the 3DS first days saying he was still mid tier [to much ridicule]. I saw his combo game when J tails was playing him as Wario and saw potential in him. But I was offput by the harder cyclone recovery and less killing power due to vectoring. So he kind of dipped to lower mid from there. And honestly at the end of the day he was mid tier before the 1st patch. Then we got the 1st patch and wooooow. Originally after a bit of play I thought Luigi only got the mere 1% boost on F smash and disregarded him. Then we got the data mine and vertical vectoring was gone, making Luigi shoot up to high tier at least cause he could now kill and combo. Icing on the cake was the added f smash/d smash knockback and uppercut hitbox. A humongous 2nd blessing was the gigantic fair hitbox increase to 5.6. This game Luigi a lagless spacing/approach tootl that really helped in conjunction with his fireballs. Soooo yeah, that is Luigi's story to top tier. Think Ike and MK got big buffs last patch? Luigi was the most buffed character in Smash Bros history from a single patch.

 

[A_Kae]

I always thought was still rewarded for good spacing but got more when his opponent was closer, but if his sourspots are noticeably unsafe on shield then he's in a bad position because of hit-stun making him more unsafe than just doing nothing... Speaking of which, What might tomahawking do for Roy?

Also, just a daily reminder everyone - look more closely at the message than at the messenger status (in other words, don't let your pre-conceptions of a poster destroy any chance they have of making a 'good post' in your eyes). It shows in this thread when people have angsty complaints with one another because they tend to start on 'opposite ends of the pitch' when it comes to discussions purely because of what the other person is saying. Don't be like that. Don't fall into the (unfortunately common) trap of registering messenger status purely before the message.

Even posters with out-there ideas have very important things to say that often get completely dis-regarded because people filter those people's posts with a bias.

Roy's tips actually make him safer on shield, not unsafe. His hitlag modifiers+more distance from the enemy=safety. D-tilt is only like -2 on shield when tipped, and I think -4 when not tipped. And it's a similar story for his other moves. I'm almost certain that he's got some of the safest moves in the game.

About the second bit, I agree. Judge a post on it's own merits, not the merits of the poster.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I defended Luigi to the death back in the 3DS first days saying he was still mid tier [to much ridicule]. I saw his combo game when J tails was playing him as Wario and saw potential in him. But I was off put by the harder cyclone recovery and less killing power due to vectoring. So he kind of dipped to lower mid from there. And honestly at the end of the day he was mid tier before the 1st patch. Then we got the 1st patch and wooooow. Originally after a bit of play I thought Luigi only got the mere 1% boost on F smash and disregarded him. Then we got the data mine and vertical vectoring was gone, making Luigi shoot up to high tier at least cause he could now kill and combo. Icing on the cake was the added f smash/d smash knock back and uppercut hitbox. A humongous 2nd blessing was the gigantic fair hit-box increase to 5.6. This game Luigi a lag-less spacing/approach tool that really helped in conjunction with his fireballs. Soooo yeah, that is Luigi's story to top tier. Think Ike and MK got big buffs last patch? Luigi was the most buffed character in Smash Bros history from a single patch.

but what makes Luigi different from his previous iterations? Luigi was always a beast in close range and could kill super easy from that area, but he struggled incredibly hard to get in. he never was a top tier threat until now, and i don't see any difference between this Luigi and ssb 64 Luigi, melee Luigi (this Luigi actually had a good burst movement option in wavdash), or brawl luigi.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Roy is safe as hell on Nair and d-tilt.

A perfect SHFF Nair puts him at +1.

 

[David Viran]

Roy is safe as hell on Nair and d-tilt.

A perfect SHFF Nair puts him at +1.

Really? Doesn't his nair have 14 frames of landing lag with no good AC. How much damage does his nair do?

 

[A_Kae]

Really? Doesn't his nair have 14 frames of landing lag with no good AC. How much damage does his nair do?

4/6, 13 frames of landing lag.

Edit: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy

You hit with tipped Nair 1 on the last possible frame, which gives a 1 frame advantage on shield.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The landing RECOVERY is 13 frames.

The advantage is most likely due to his hitlag modifer on the end of his blade which greatly reduces his hitlag making him safer on pokes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...wju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=1666777880

 

[NairWizard]

Roy is so close to good, but not quite there. This sounds crazy/counterintuitive, but what he really needs is more damage on things. He has the tools to be safe, but when he plays it safe he doesn't get much reward. Being good in neutral with Roy means giving up your great advantage, and then his disadvantage makes you feel like you're ripping your own nails off with a plier.

 

[Vipermoon]

I always wish Marth never had those dumb hitlag modifiers on the tipper. All it does is give your opponent more time to DI/VI and makes everything horrible on shield. Melee had it right.

 

[Emblem Lord]

double post

 

[Emblem Lord]

I always wish Marth never had those dumb hitlag modifiers on the tipper. All it does is give your opponent more time to DI/VI and makes everything horrible on shield. Melee had it right.

He uhhhh

He has them in melee too.

>____________________>

Also Marth is as safe as Roy on d-tilt and nair, but for different reasons.

His tipper has more shield push back, so Marth pushes them away. This is what he wants.

Roy doesnt push them away, instead he gets an opportunity to go for a trap situation or mix-up. This what he wants.

Functionality bruh

 

[Baby_Sneak]

IMO, to be good with Roy in neutral, you have to move better than your opponents.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The landing RECOVERY is 13 frames.

The advantage is most likely due to his hitlag modifer on the end of his blade which greatly reduces his hitlag making him safer on pokes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...wju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=1666777880

Wow wow wubbzy. Roy's dtilt ends faster than his jab? Good God man.

 

[meleebrawler]

Wow wow wubbzy. Roy's dtilt ends faster than his jab? Good God man.

Considering the uses of the moves (dtilt mostly a safe poke, jab puts them in awkward positions), it only seems fair.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Considering the uses of the moves (dtilt mostly a safe poke, jab puts them in awkward positions), it only seems fair.

That's true I guess I didn't realize how quickly you can move after dtilt.

 

[Sir Tundra]

I don't know if any of y'all would agree with me on this but I think has a really hard time against zoners due to his high risk high reward playstyle. Roy has no safe approaches meaning he's gonna have to play very patient if he's gonna do some damage. Especially with the likes of ,,, and . I think also gives Roy a hard time but I could be very wrong about that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Question.

Do you know what a safe approach is?

 

[Vipermoon]

He uhhhh

He has them in melee too.

>____________________>

Also Marth is as safe as Roy on d-tilt and nair, but for different reasons.

His tipper has more shield push back, so Marth pushes them away. This is what he wants.

Roy doesnt push them away, instead he gets an opportunity to go for a trap situation or mix-up. This what he wants.

Functionality bruh

Marth had hitlag in Melee. But did he have hitlag modifiers? His hitlag was never noticeable in Melee like it is in later games. Maybe Melee hitlag is much less overall?

 

[TriTails]

but what makes Luigi different from his previous iterations? Luigi was always a beast in close range and could kill super easy from that area, but he struggled incredibly hard to get in. he never was a top tier threat until now, and i don't see any difference between this Luigi and ssb 64 Luigi, melee Luigi (this Luigi actually had a good burst movement option in wavdash), or brawl luigi.

Here's a reminder: Luigi does not struggle incredibly hard to get in in this game.

Edit:Forgot Wario exist. Duh.