Character Competitive Impressions

[Dogivet]

A Smart Player ≠ a Knowledgeable Player
I think that's all that needs to be established because they're completely different.

And while it could be possible to make all characters homogeneous, (extreme example from the video: all characters have a normal grab and Shiek's Fair) there's no reason it should for the sake of balance.
Perks tweeked here and a step at a time is a better direction than an outright change to a character.

 

[KenMeister]

Yeah, Link can do all three of those things, what with his improved grab into combos, bombs, Zair, range, and aerials. I mean, a 6-frame tether grab makes him suffocating for lower tiers and other heavies.

Actually his standing grab startup is 12 frames, while pivot is 14. I forget what dash grab was, but it's pretty close to the other two grabs. It's so slow it can be reacted to assuming your not right in his face, but you'd have already beaten him in CQC by then. Zair isn't safe on shield at all. Try zairing a shielding Rosalina in tournament and watch her run up and grab you thanks to the nerfed landing lag data on zair in Smash 4. His projectiles don't really do the shieldstun that Melee or 64's rangs brought to the table, meaning you can shield dash through them easily if you know what you're doing. Sure his aerials have low landing lag, but because fair is laggy and nair isn't as fast as other sex kicks, while being short-ranged, you can't really space them on shield without getting punished. You can sort of get away with spaced bair on shield, but it's neither good on short opponents and anyone with amazing OoS options (like Pika) will punish it anyway.

 

[Lavani]

If you want something less abstract to point to, ZeRo's also made repeated claims on things such as a 1.0.8 Sheik needle nerf when the frame data on it was only changed in 3DS 1.0.4, with multiple people debunking his claim. Haven't really followed anything else he's had to say about the game since 2014 aside from what's brought up here on occasion, but he seems to make his claims based on feels, kneejerk reactions, or "this would make a character better" moreso than careful testing or proposed changes based on character knowledge, and doesn't really consider how widely-regarded his opinion is when making these statements.

I was going to come in here to say something about how "this isn't the ZeRo Impressions thread guys", but it probably is important to put it out on the table that player skill and game knowledge aren't synonymous (kind of ninja'd on that point while typing but oh well).

 

[Routa]

........ Can people stop saying theory when they clearly mean hypothesis? My biological lab experiences and my TA job I had for those labs made me a real stickler for when people casually use the term theory incorrectly and think they're right in using it. Every time I see that, I just want to assume everything they after that is complete nonsense.

I want to remind that not everyone is good in english. I mean for example word "hypothesis" isn't really a common word. I mean yeah I should use it instead of "theory" in these kind of situations, but... I am used to use "theory" instead of "hypothesis".

So shortly said: not everyone's native language is english and errors like these should not be a big deal.

(My english sucks and you must deal with it)

 

[A_Kae]

Just to give the proper definitions here:

theory |ˈTHēərē, ˈTHi(ə)rē|
noun (pl. theories)
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained: Darwin's theory of evolution.
a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based: a theory of education | music theory.
an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action: my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged.
Mathematics: a collection of propositions to illustrate the principles of a subject.

hypothesis |hīˈpäTHəsis|
noun (pl. hypotheses |-ˌsēz| )
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation: professional astronomers attacked him for popularizing an unconfirmed hypothesis.
Philosophy: a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.

And here's what google shows when you search for "difference between theory and hypothesis", if you're stlll confused

1. In the scientific method, a hypothesis is an educated guess about an explanation for a set of observations. A hypothesis may be proven false through experimentation. A scientific theory is a hypothesis that has been repeatedly tested and not disproven.

Edit: Fixed the formatting.

 

[Speed Boost]

........ Can people stop saying theory when they clearly mean hypothesis? My biological lab experiences and my TA job I had for those labs made me a real stickler for when people casually use the term theory incorrectly and think they're right in using it. Every time I see that, I just want to assume everything they after that is complete nonsense.

Thanks man, but this is a conversation about a video game so theory works just fine. I have a problem when people say douchey stuff like that, so why don't you stop and will call it even.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/theory

 

[FullMoon]

Well today I learned more about English here than I normally do at my English course at least.

 

[NairWizard]

I was going to come in here to say something about how "this isn't the ZeRo Impressions thread guys", but it probably is important to put it out on the table that player skill and game knowledge aren't synonymous (kind of ninja'd on that point while typing but oh well).

At the same time, to play the game the way ZeRo does you do need knowledge of high-level tactics. ZeRo knows what works and what doesn't work. Right now, no one else plays the game in quite the same way that ZeRo does (he's the first player I've seen to consistently abuse tether grabs by running up and holding shield at close range, for example). I would expect him to be able to assess a character's viability at top level competitive play. I also agree that Marth and Link are probably not relevant opponents at that level as of right now.

So I don't think that the fundamental problem here is game knowledge.

Rather, the discrepancy between the thinking in this thread and ZeRo's thinking is that ZeRo wants all characters to be as good as Sheik rather than seeing Sheik nerfed. And we (rightfully) claim that "everyone should be as good/overwhelming as Sheik" is not a competitively healthy balance paradigm. Being cynical of ZeRo on the basis of his tedious and somewhat chaotic approach to balance is fine.

But let's not make assumptions about ZeRo's knowledge of neutral or of the game, or his understanding of character viability. If he didn't understand or couldn't analyze holes in different characters' neutral games, then he wouldn't be winning tournaments.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I want to remind that not everyone is good in english. I mean for example word "hypothesis" isn't really a common word. I mean yeah I should use it instead of "theory" in these kind of situations, but... I am used to use "theory" instead of "hypothesis".

So shortly said: not everyone's native language is english and errors like these should not be a big deal.

(My english sucks and you must deal with it)

Same. I speak Igbo and Yoruba as my first languages. English is just a language my country was forced to learn. I put on a fake American accent cuz I'm a decent actor.

Thanks man, but this is a conversation about a video game so theory works just fine. I have a problem when people say douchey stuff like that, so why don't you stop and will call it even.

This type of laziness and stubbornness only makes the problem worse. I'm saying something "douchey" since I pointed out something wrong in your speech. Well exxxxxxcccccccuuuuuuuussssssssseeeeeee me. I guess everyone should be OK with you calling everyone salty, but as soon you're called out, you're like "nah bruh". There's really no "we" in this whole thing. Mixing and matching definitions have systematically weakened the overall meaning of words in society, so much so that people believe it's no big deal to use an important word like theory when theory isn't the word you want.

Good day sir.

 

[Speed Boost]

Same. I speak Igbo and Yoruba as my first languages. English is just a language my country was forced to learn. I put on a fake American accent cuz I'm a decent actor.

This type of laziness and stubbornness only makes the problem worse. I'm saying something "douchey" since I pointed out something wrong in your speech. Well exxxxxxcccccccuuuuuuuussssssssseeeeeee me. I guess everyone should be OK with you calling everyone salty, but as soon you're called out, you're like "nah bruh". There's really no "we" in this whole thing. Mixing and matching definitions have systematically weakened the overall meaning of words in society, so much so that people believe it's no big deal to use an important word like theory when theory isn't the word you want.

Good day sir.

I wasn't wrong saying theory, because I wasn't talking about science.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/theory

: an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events

: an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true

: the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject

Don't you feel silly now? Douche

 

[Thinkaman]

I dunno what all you guys are talking about, but "Link should have a frame 6 grab" is the sort of thing that makes milk come out people's noses.

 

[Ffamran]

All right... How about we talk about characters? Y'know, the topic? The thread's called "Character Competitive Impressions". If you want to talk about "Chile ZeRo Impressions", then by all means... in a PM or a social group thread if you really want to fanboy or anti-fanboy ZeRo. In other words: discussion on ZeRo's fallible words ends now.

I dunno what all you guys are talking about, but "Link should have a frame 6 grab" is the sort of thing that makes milk come out people's noses.

More like blood than milk...

 

[A_Kae]

I dunno what all you guys are talking about, but "Link should have a frame 6 grab" is the sort of thing that makes milk come out people's noses.

Blood is more likely.

Seriously, tethers should never be as fast as regular grabs, and F6 is faster than most, IIRC.

Edit: someone posted the same thing just before I did.

 

[Thinkaman]

For reference, a long-range f11 tether is the bundle of fun known as Brawl Olimar.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I wasn't wrong saying theory, because I wasn't talking about science.

http://i.word.com/idictionary/theory

: an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events

: an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true

: the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject

Don't you feel silly now? Douche

Yes, ad hominems help your petty argument. That definition of has been added due to people's incorrect usage of the term (just like racist/racism has added newer definitions to it when it was pretty simple before). Now, to keep it basic: a theory is the how and why something works and has been validated while in contrast to hypothesis which is an unverified guess work.

@ Thinkaman
Petty people like myself creating a petty arguments. You can (and probably should) ignore as many ad hominems will be thrown.

 

[Lavani]

Blood is more likely.

Seriously, tethers should never be as fast as regular grabs, and F6 is faster than most, IIRC.

For what it's worth, the fastest grabs are F6.

 

[Thinkaman]

My only advice is to cut things out before Shaya calls in a frame-6 airstrike.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Oh I was (will). Having been called a douche twice from someone proves to me the person isn't worth many people's time.

 

[Minordeth]

Actually his standing grab startup is 12 frames, while pivot is 14. I forget what dash grab was, but it's pretty close to the other two grabs. It's so slow it can be reacted to assuming your not right in his face, but you'd have already beaten him in CQC by then. Zair isn't safe on shield at all. Try zairing a shielding Rosalina in tournament and watch her run up and grab you thanks to the nerfed landing lag data on zair in Smash 4. His projectiles don't really do the shieldstun that Melee or 64's rangs brought to the table, meaning you can shield dash through them easily if you know what you're doing. Sure his aerials have low landing lag, but because fair is laggy and nair isn't as fast as other sex kicks, while being short-ranged, you can't really space them on shield without getting punished. You can sort of get away with spaced bair on shield, but it's neither good on short opponents and anyone with amazing OoS options (like Pika) will punish it anyway.

Yeah, 12 frames is toward the lower bound of reaction times, even if you are trying to anticipate a grab. You are underselling both the start-up and end lag of a long-range tether grab that can be mixed in with say, bomb frame traps. You can also space Fair reasonably well, although you are right, it's not completely safe, although really, not much is completely safe on shield in this game. Link's tilts are reasonably fast, and again, coupled with bombs, his mix-ups can be adapted to most characters. His Zair, with the increased range is not the best approach, unless well spaced, but it is a wall for aerial approaches.

Even if you shield dash through a projectile storm, Link has increased grab range, with less end-lag, and a rather decent jab. That a good Link player wouldn't be able to space and condition said shield-dashing isn't realistic.

All of Link's buttons are highly context based. He is a character that, by design, is supposed to adapt. He can't throw out much for free, other than bombs. But even in losing MUs against say Sheik, he now has the tools to compete.

 

[FullMoon]

If anyone should be given a frame 6 grab it's Greninja.

#nobias

Anyway, what do people think of Megaman right now? He's probably one of the more unorthodox characters in the game and I never really know what to make of him. In my personal tier list I place him as top 20 just because his projectile game is really strong and hard to get through thanks to the pellets (thank god I main a fast character)

On that note, how does Megaman fare against Lucas and Ness? The PSI Magnet buff probably makes pellets not very spammable since they can heal up a lot of damage by repeatedly absorbing them. Lucas even has the benefit of being able to hit Megaman with his version of it if he tries getting up close.

 

[Speed Boost]

Yes, ad hominems help your petty argument. That definition of has been added due to people's incorrect usage of the term (just like racist/racism has added newer definitions to it when it was pretty simple before). Now, to keep it basic: a theory is the how and why something works and has been validated while in contrast to hypothesis which is an unverified guess work.

@ Thinkaman
Petty people like myself creating a petty arguments. You can (and probably should) ignore as many ad hominems will be thrown.

"My petty argument"? I wasn't the one who replied to a post about SSB with a grammar lesson, was wrong and is still fronting like he knows what he is talking about. I understand the scientific method and how the word is defined there. You aren't the only one who has been to college.

 

[KenMeister]

If anyone should be given a frame 6 grab it's Greninja.

#nobias

Anyway, what do people think of Megaman right now? He's probably one of the more unorthodox characters in the game and I never really know what to make of him. In my personal tier list I place him as top 20 just because his projectile game is really strong and hard to get through thanks to the pellets (thank god I main a fast character)

On that note, how does Megaman fare against Lucas and Ness? The PSI Magnet buff probably makes pellets not very spammable since they can heal up a lot of damage by repeatedly absorbing them. Lucas even has the benefit of being able to hit Megaman with his version of it if he tries getting up close.

I feel like Mega Man is sort of a secret counterpick character towards opponents that are really relevant, yet probably loses to really weird MUs. Example, I feel like Mega Man could give Rosalina a headache since he can wall her out with lemons without having to worry about Luma as a sponge absorbing everything given she's super tall and her usual defensive gameplan doesn't work as well in other MUs, while Mega Man mains claim he loses to Samus, but I really don't know why.

 

[FullMoon]

Wait wuh.

Megamains claiming he loses to Samus? That's the first time I've heard of that, I'm pretty sure I've heard it being said that Mega Man won the MU unless my memory is being faulty.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Jab wasn't patched. WFT has only received nerfs (which could be argued to be bug fixes) since release.

No, jab was patched so that it stopped whiffing on short characters; a buff.

 

[Thinkaman]

No, jab was patched so that it stopped whiffing on short characters; a buff.

Pretty sure this wasn't actually the case, though it was reported a lot.

 

[Man Li Gi]

"My petty argument"? I wasn't the one who replied to a post about SSB with a grammar lesson, was wrong and is still fronting like he knows what he is talking about. I understand the scientific method and how the word is defined there. You aren't the only one who has been to college.

Here is a prime example of me seeing what a lad is saying and seeing that he doesn't want to give and act like he won........ggs man. You really earned it. Anymore congratulatory remarks before we both get warnings and further clog the thread? C'mon, I know you have more ad hominems stored somewhere.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to characters though, who, in your opinion,(I'm talking to everyone ) has the worst jab in the game? I'm tempted to say Ganon.

 

[A_Kae]

Pretty sure this wasn't actually the case, though it was reported a lot.

Looking through the patch notes threads, I'm not seeing anything for WFT's jab, so it's probably not a thing.

Air dodge landing lag went from 12>22, though. Guessing that that was some kind of typo in development.

 

[Speed Boost]

I think Mega Man will age well as Smash 4 goes on and his meta slowly advances. He is such a unique and exciting character. Unfortunately, he is also intimidating to pick up as a main.

I could see Samus out zoning Mega Man though. She has longer range projectiles in general and her ZAir helps when Mega Man get in his sweet spot lemon range.

 

[Lavani]

Air dodge landing lag went from 12>22, though. Guessing that that was some kind of typo in development.

There were several non-standard airdodges early in the game's life, all of which were normalized with 1.0.4. I don't remember exact numbers (and don't feel like doublechecking) but ZSS's was ~15f, and Little Mac and Pac-Man both had airdodge landing lag a few frames below the norm.

Considering that, I've had Wii Fit's pegged as an experiment rather than an accident.

 

[Ffamran]

The slowest grab in the game are Samus and ZSS's frame 16 grab and dash grab and their frame 17 pivot grab. Guess what? ZSS works it fine since she has setups and mobility. A frame 12 tether grab for her would be pushing it, but it's not insane and as people agreed on, her tether grab is what holds her from being a monster because of her throw game.

I don't know what Samus can do to confirm a grab, but like ZSS, her throw game is strong. Her lower movement speed does hurt her more than ZSS.

The fastest tether grab is Olimar's... I think it's Olimar's at frame 10 followed by the Links' frame 12 grabs. Seems long, huh? Let's look at the slowest melee grabs at frame 10, Zelda's, dash grab at frame 11, Zelda and Ganondorf's, and pivot grab at frame 12, Captain Falcon's. Following second slowest grabs are Bowser and Little Mac's at frame 9 and third slowest at frame 8, Charizard, DK, Duck Hunt, Falco, and Wario who doesn't care since all of his grabs are frame 8.

A frame 6 tether grab would be insane... or not? Or implies that if melee grabs on average were 2 frames shorter, then it might not be, but we'd be dealing with frame 4 grabs then for characters like Fox, Luigi, Diddy, and Sheik. Unchanged, it would be insane when you have melee grabs at frame 10 for Zelda and frames 9 and 8 for 8 other characters. That's 9 characters with melee grabs already screwed going to get screwed even more. What's more, 4 of them aren't heavyweights and who feel combos much harder than the heavies. Zelda, Little Mac, Duck Hunt, and Falco aren't having much fun with their slow grabs, especially Falco and Zelda who are slow moving characters. Little Mac is fast, but a frame 6 tether grab would murder him when he's out-spaced and read during approaches. At least Duck Hunt can throw stuff and stay out of tether grab range.

Would it help for Link and other tether grabbers to have faster grabs? Absolutely, especially the ones who don't get much off of grab like Yoshi or ones who can't really find ways to get grabs safely without being punished heavily like Pac-Man or Bowser Jr. At the same time, the slow melee grabbers should have reduced startup on their grabs too. There is no reason Bowser should have a frame 9 grab. Compared to DK and Charizard, he gets little off of grabs. Sure, he has kill throws, but so do DK and Charizard. Little Mac's ground game is supposed to be good and while boxers aren't known for grappling and he's wearing boxing gloves, Little Mac having a frame 9 grab isn't great. I don't think he gets much out of grabs, but his pummel is good. Frame 7 at the least. Zelda... Her grab doesn't even have range like Pac-Man's or Bowser Jr.'s and she's slower than both. Was Zelda purposely designed to be bad in general? Oh, she's good in doubles. So are Sheik and Villager.

 

[Kofu]

I think Mega Man will age well as Smash 4 goes on and his meta slowly advances. He is such a unique and exciting character. Unfortunately, he is also intimidating to pick up as a main.

I could see Samus out zoning Mega Man though. She has longer range projectiles in general and her ZAir helps when Mega Man get in his sweet spot lemon range.

Mega Man's projectile options are also a lot faster on startup and endlag than Samus's in general. He also has a normal grab, which is huge for a mid-range character. I don't see MM losing the MU. However, Samus is better in the CQC game which could certainly give her an edge.

Unfortunately strong Samus mains are hard to come by. In general she doesn't give me issues, but a few have pretty much steamrolled me (partially due to me not anticipating an agressive playstyle) then leave before I can play them again.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Is there any reason 's tether grab is worse than 's? ZeRo said s grab wasn't as good as 's which seems weird since his grab is both faster and has more range. Anything I'm missing here?

 

[ARGHETH]

He might be saying that he gets less reward off of a grab or something. I haven't actually watched the video...

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm going to sleep but I'm going to leave this here first:

Mega Man vs. Marth?

I think the lord class wins slightly. Good night/morning.

 

[Locke 06]

Lol. Mega man is incredibly limited as a character. That's what happens when 3 of your moves are essentially the same and your other tilts and smashes have mountains of endlag. Also, poor autocancels (BAir FAir don't AC out of SH, UAir only AC's out of a FH and DAir requires a double jump to AC).

Tell me more about my character's matchups and how they're played at a high level. I'd love to hear how pelleting Rosa with luma around gives her trouble and how Samus outzones Mega man with her assortment of long range projectiles.

 

[Nysyr]

12 Frame tether is not something you really can react to full stop. It requires a read in order to get away from. 12 Frames is equivalent to 200ms which is where the average reaction time probably lies.

ZeRo may well be a bit below that due to conditioning, however moves still have startup.

 

[A_Kae]

Is there any reason 's tether grab is worse than 's? ZeRo said s grab wasn't as good as 's which seems weird since his grab is both faster and has more range. Anything I'm missing here?

Maybe by worse grab he meant that his grab followups were worse. Because ZSS is definitely outclassing Link there.

Are you sure that his grab has more range? It wasn't before the patch, and I don't know if the range boost pushes it beyond ZSS's.

 

[Thinkaman]

Reaction time isn't quite binary, but almost. Somewhere in 10-15 frames (depending on the person) is normally the threshold for reacting to something you are actively looking for, with full focus.

Edit: If Link grab was f6, grabbing someone blocking a bomb toss from max tether range would probably be guaranteed. (It'd be close, hard to say for sure by looking at it)

 

[Ffamran]

Is there any reason 's tether grab is worse than 's? ZeRo said s grab wasn't as good as 's which seems weird since his grab is both faster and has more range. Anything I'm missing here?

Consider everything thing about them. The simplest one would be running speed. Link running slower would make his dash grab seem worse despite ZSS's being being 2 frames slower. A more closer example would be Fox and Falco; both have frame 10 dash grabs, but Fox can rush in and grab more easily than Falco.

The other part is confirming or setting up the grab which not a lot of characters can. Pre-pre-patch, Link could jab cancel to grab quicker, but now it's slower. Not really a safe confirm compared to Fox and Sheik's, but a way to setup a grab. After that, I have no idea how Link is going to setup a grab. Late Nair to grab, maybe? ZSS has Down Smash and Stun Gun which stuns and stunning lasts a bit longer than knockback while locking them in place. Combined with her speed, she's getting grabs more easily than Link.

In terms of risk, Link whiffing a grab is less painful than ZSS, but ZSS has an easier time setting one up. Rewards, well, Link has a kill throw and he can combo off of D-throw while ZSS can setup a kill and her combos tends to last longer. I think it's more about safety and ease of use which would make ZSS's slower grab "better" than Link's.

 

[A_Kae]

Something that people don't consider about reaction time enough, I think, is that you have to be able to tell from the first frame that something is happening to react to it.

If I've got a move that's 16 frames of startup, but there's no animation change until F14, you aren't reacting to that.

Just something to throw out there about reactions.