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Character Competitive Impressions

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Luco

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What about :4drmario:? Been hearing from several people that he does significantly better than Mario in this, including a Ness main I know, but the only thing I know is that Doc's short hop makes him able to actually hit Ness with his aerials.
Doc's supposed to do better in this MU (according to the general public because 'hey look pills can't be absorbed!', although I'm intrigued by what you've mentioned)) than Mario but I'm not sure I see it. He trades a better neutral for less ability to punish mistakes and a far worse offstage game. Pills certainly do force an approach (I guess theoretically if we had a big enough lead we could just sit there and PS them but I don't think that's practical) and Doc kills earlier than Mario, but he doesn't have FLUDD and his cape is worse than Mario's in that if he screws up he's suddenly in an awful position (because we can edge-guard him easier than Mario) so we don't have that much to fear from him off-stage. Because of his poorer mobility he finds it really hard to punish us too. I don't have too much actual experience with the MU, so maybe Doc's SH doing more in this MU affects it but I never really have a problem with Doc and I can't think of any evidence that shows that Doc does anywhere near as well as Mario. I think most of the time he just hits our shield and gets punished for it. Maybe @TTTTTsd would know a bit more about it though?
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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off topic, Has anyone looked at boxing and thought they can apply the knowledge of fighting games to boxing and understand some stuff? because i sure can


EDIT: my post is pretty vague and bland so let me explain more i guess. so, in one specific part of the vid [22:49], you will see manny just dipping and weaving outside of david diaz's range to provoke him to attack because manny's hand speed is faster and he will connect first. after the first intiation bob and weave motion, he then goes into a stance, or postion to open up diaz's defense and throws some jabs to get something started, but diaz's defense is super solid, and he holds his guard. Diaz then predicts manny will strike with something heavier, so he changes postion and right after, manny whiffs his attack right above diaz's head. Then, diaz thought it was time to begin his pressure, so he trys to counterattack, along with some attack combinations, or strings, but they all whiff, since manny is fast on reaction and after a change of their postion in the ring, they're back to neutral. one must also notice how long they fight in neutral, but how explosive their attacks come out.
but this is what i'm seeing, you guys might see something different.
I've drawn that conclusion before and I think it's pretty spot on.
 

Kofu

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Dunno how else to explain he's one of those characters that gets juggled by Doc Jab2 -> Up-B before he can block. He definitely doesn't fall that fast, at least not instantaneously (Doc for instance can't do Jab2 -> Up-B on Pikachu or Fox who are lighter than Mac). And aside from having quick options to interrupt stuff like Mario U-tilt strings, he can't block those either.
Fair enough, at least you're giving some reasoning. Air mobility is a pretty complex thing and it isn't strictly basic fall speed numbers.
 

rm88

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What the issue with WFT? I keep seeing her in bottom, yet i fail to see how her flaws are truly horrible to the point she's bottom.
:4drmario::4mario::4fox::4tlink::4wario::4yoshi: have the same range issue
I won't make a list of all her flaws, but each time you can find a lot of character worse, but they are considered mid
WFT has some of the absolute worst hitboxes in the game, not only because of "horizontal" range. This really hurts some of her supossed key moves and makes her already super slow smash attacks pretty unsafe. She's completely destroyed by short characters with lots of offensive options like Olimar or Pikachu, I think. WFT is my 4th favorite character but she really, really needs a buff.
 

migul

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Dunno how else to explain he's one of those characters that gets juggled by Doc Jab2 -> Up-B before he can block. He definitely doesn't fall that fast, at least not instantaneously (Doc for instance I know can't do Jab2 -> Up-B on Pikachu or Fox who are lighter than Mac). And aside from having quick options to interrupt stuff like Mario U-tilt strings, he can't block those either.
Might be gravity. I dunno.
EDIT: It is, LM's gravity is .08, tied for 34th. It's the same reason I can u-tilt Fox to 35% before he can escape but can only do 10% to D3
 
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Nobie

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I think Mewtwo has strong offense and defense, it's just that he has a hard time switching between the two, and it's in those transitions that he suffers.
 

Number Three

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Are the votes for this tier list open for anyone and everyone who wants to vote? Like could someone vote for Palutena as the best in the game if they so desire?
 

NachoOfCheese

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I think Mewtwo has strong offense and defense, it's just that he has a hard time switching between the two, and it's in those transitions that he suffers.
Offense as in what? His moves?
Defense as in what? His shield? Rolls? Spot dodges?
What exactly do you mean
 

Nobie

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Offense as in what? His moves?
Defense as in what? His shield? Rolls? Spot dodges?
What exactly do you mean
I mean he can quickly build up damage, and his kill power is undeniable and he can run away pretty effectively, but his poor aerial deceleration and the end lag on certain key moves like grab means getting caught with his pants down is bad news bears. Compare with Mega Man whose pellets and ability to weave allow him to transition between attacking and defending almost seamlessly.
 

TriTails

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Off topic but the forgotten Princess :4peach: is somone I find has a good Match Up spread against a lot of the top tiers.

Top 10 (IMO/No Order):
:4sheik::4pikachu::4sonic::4zss::4ness::4luigi::4fox::4diddy::4falcon::rosalina:
Beyond Shiek, ZSS, Maybe Pikachu and Sonic I think she wins or at least goes even with the rest.

Luigi can't combo her as well due to her being floaty and she can combo him back highly effectively. She dominates him off stage and can lame him out with Turnips. Ness is much the same once they're offstage they should be as good as dead. Diddy is the same and she can take his bannana and still fight with aerial attacks. Diddy has a better time then the others due to higher mobility and Monkey Flip. Falcon's advantage is shot due to Float and general floatiness, and Peach's great advantage is awesome in this match-up.

Rosalina is an interesting case, but Booty bumping Rosa means it hits Luma gets knocked and can act out of it super quickly. Edge guarding thag recovery is free, like samples at the grocery store after the inital U-Air to cover ledge from Rosa. Its still a harder match up because you can get zoned out but peach can still approach with turnip baits and spaced fair. She'spretty effective at getting rid of Luma and she cam take advantage of those 12.55 seconds.

I don't know about Fox.

In Order of Peach's advantage:
:4luigi::4ness::4falcon::4diddy::rosalina:|:4fox:|:4pikachu::4sonic::4sheik::4zss:
Advantage ends with Fox or Rosa IMO

I'm no professional Peach though.
:4luigi:: You must defeat my Fire Jump Punch to win.

Luigi can't be lamed out by Turnips. We can lame you out with Fireballs better.

Floaty =/= no combos. As long as Luigi can still do his D-throw > F-air > U-air, you'll take about 26% of damage, and D-air spike bounce seem to work better on floaty characters. Oh yeah, HooHahNado kills Peach pretty dange early as well.

Winning off-stage game =/= Winning against Luigi. That'd mean he would lose against almost everyone... which he doesn't.
 
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Nabbitnator

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I've had to switch to zss against Luigi from peach. His fireballs does soo much to her approach. Now she does have combos on him despite being floaty. They just have to be altered.
 

Ikes

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This doesn't make sense to me. No character throws each direction 25% of the time. As Ness you very rarely need uthrow because the other three fill almost every need; why is uthrow even relevant to evaluating Ness's throws? This is like saying Ganon has bad tilts because his utilt is so bad... when his ftilt and dtilt are so good and are clearly used collectively way more than 2/3 of the time. Ness's fthrow is better than Lucas's bthrow because it's functionally unique; it's way better to have two unique throws for different situations than two throws that often do the same job and compete for uses.

Let me highlight this. Suppose character A can kill at about 130% on average with all four throws. Character B kills at 130% on average with three throws and the fourth is mostly bad but at under 10% it gets a single hit combo follow-up. Obviously a throw that kills at 130% in general is a superior asset to a super low percent only combo throw. However, in context here, the second character is clearly way better off; you already have no trouble killing at 130% with a grab with both characters whereas with the second one you have more useful rewards when you grab someone at 0%. This is Ness vs Lucas throws in a nutshell. Throw by throw Lucas looks great, but then you realize he has one elite throw and three good ones while Ness has one elite throw that is elite in a more important category than Lucas's one elite throw, two good ones (people who don't realize Ness fthrow is very good are crazy, incidentally - it's way higher value than a traditional one especially in the context that Ness absolutely does not need it at high percents), and one you rarely use but that between Ness's three commonly used throws he covers more situations and functionality than Lucas does with four.

The exact metric is "starting from the moment in time you have already landed a grab, what is your average pay-off?". This discounts the grab itself (so Lucas's awful tether is not held against him), but it does weigh in the character's specific chase options and correctly adjusts for the fact that throw choice is an interesting dynamic with many factors to be weighted.
the fact of the matter is that Lucas' throws kill in more situations than ness' bthrow, albeit somewhat later

he can kill off the top like Mewtwo, at the edge facing towards the blast zone with fthrow, and away from the blast zone with bthrow

his dthrow combos are also harder to DI due to the angle it tosses them at
 
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Speed Boost

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I mean he can quickly build up damage, and his kill power is undeniable and he can run away pretty effectively, but his poor aerial deceleration and the end lag on certain key moves like grab means getting caught with his pants down is bad news bears. Compare with Mega Man whose pellets and ability to weave allow him to transition between attacking and defending almost seamlessly.
I see what you are trying to say. Although, what moves are the culprits in your opinion? He doesn't have any laggy normals really. I think his problem is more the endlag on his down throw and his weight.

If they took some frames off the end of DThrow and then made him a heavy lightweight/light middleweight he might be pretty good. Even if he could only get DThrow to FAir until like 50-60% it would make a big difference.
 

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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Emblem Lord

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What exactly will SH double fair fix?

What even needs to be fixed?

Why do I need to care about what this non Marth player is saying about Marth that clearly doesn't even know.
 

A_Kae

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What exactly will SH double fair fix?

What even needs to be fixed?

Why do I need to care about what this non Marth player is saying about Marth that clearly doesn't even know.
Fixing stuff like u-tilt missing a lot when it shouldn't is something. Besides stuff like that, Marth is in a good spot IMO.

Agree that people shouldn't be listening to someone who doesn't know the character.
 

wedl!!

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thehard

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Gotta love people asking for "fixes" to characters working as intended.

Also gotta love the Smash community's obsession with super safe shff aerials.
 

Ffamran

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What exactly will SH double fair fix?

What even needs to be fixed?

Why do I need to care about what this non Marth player is saying about Marth that clearly doesn't even know.
This has me wondering now, especially the fact that ZeRo specifically mentioned that Falco doesn't play similarly in each game with Smash 4 being the most different. I wonder if people really are hung up on not being able to play Falco, Marth, and *insert character's name here* like in Melee, Brawl, or PM.

Some characters are pretty similar in each game, though. Take Link who pretty much uses his projectiles in each game, but how he uses them and how they affect people depends on each game, but Link still feels similar in each game. He's a slow, powerful walking armory whose moves haven't really changed much other than Smash 4 giving him his Jump Attack from Ocarina of Time and onwards. Mario's always been that jack of all trades, Captain Falcon that all in or nothing fighter, and Fox was pretty much a good character in every game except in Brawl where the game pretty much screwed him over, but didn't stop him from being a decent mid tier. Even Marth is kind of similar where he plays a strong spacing game, but Smash 4 has been trying to figure him out with the recent patch about getting there.

Then you have Falco. In Melee, he was a combo machine with good zoning, in Brawl he was a monster zoner with disgusting setups, and in Smash 4, he's kind of like an anti-zoner with a good combo game. In each game, he's different. He's much, much more different than say, Mario who keeps his "core game plan" in each game, but still functions differently because of how each game works. Or Meta Knight where Smash 4 Meta Knight is just a toned down Brawl Meta Knight. Still a strong character, still has his "core game plan", but not as ridiculous and not functioning like in Brawl because that would be impossible with how this game functions.

Here's the thing, does it really matter? What if a character's play style took a 180, but they functioned much better than before or functioned just as well, but differently? So, let's say in some crazy universe, Captain Falcon lost his power, but he hits faster and safer than Sheik and lands with less landing lag than Kirby. He retains his insane combos, but they're longer and faster. Essentially, you'd have The Flash if he was holding back his punches. Now, let's say that somehow the Capt. still retains his viability and whatever standing with his MU charting... thing. Would it matter now that the Capt. functions differently, but is still a strong character? For those who liked his old style, I can see why people would be irked, but for people who just like the Capt. or like this kind of play, it wouldn't matter, right?

Look at Roy. Plays and functions differently than in Melee. Is he a better character? Can't really say, but does he function well? Absolutely. So, what if Marth (and Lucina) end up after a couple of patches, a monster spacing fighter? Marth could be considered that already, but let's say Marth is an even better spacer than now. Marth won't combo like in Melee or wall you with Fairs, but now, if he spaces correctly, you're screwed no matter what. He's going to knock you back like a bird constantly flying into a window. He's not going to combo you a lot, but he has setups like his current jab to whatever. His new play style, however, rewards him greatly and he would function differently, but is still a strong character. So, does it matter now if he's not Melee Marth or Brawl Marth if he's just as or even more powerful, but plays differently?

Do you all get what I'm say after that wall of text? I can't seem to find the right words to shorten this...

Edit: Forgot about the whole SFV Ken thing. Er... So, Ken's the "same" in pretty much all the games, except for SFV where he's designed to be more offensive. If he's still good and functions well, would it matter if he's not the "old Ken"?
 
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Speed Boost

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So.. ZeRo released two videos regarding the buffs of Link and Marcina.

For Marcina: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfl6nFuv9SA
For Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh0MJIRiwAg

To summarize the videos for those who doesn't want to watch it. He still thinks Link and Marcina are still crap despite the buffs and that Link should have a Frame 6 grab while Marcina should have SH Double Fair back.
Zero actually never says he wants SH Doube FAir back. He wants to see the endlag and knockback changed so your can chain them together like Sheik.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Anyone else feel :4lucario: would be significantly better in a 3 stock format?
 

Spinosaurus

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Edit: Forgot about the whole SFV Ken thing. Er... So, Ken's the "same" in pretty much all the games, except for SFV where he's designed to be more offensive. If he's still good and functions well, would it matter if he's not the "old Ken"?
Ken has always been very offensive and SFV just seems to emphasize that more with the new animations more than anything. No doubt he changed but his playstyle is still intact.

Bison on the other hand...kinda hard to tell. His playstyle is all space control and footsies with his walk speed and pokes, but SFV seems to be trying to make him very aggressive by giving him more tools in exchange for his walk speed which was a stable of his moveset. Definitely different though for now.
 
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Ffamran

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Zero actually never says he wants SH Doube FAir back. He wants to see the endlag and knockback changed so your can chain them together like Sheik.
Oh man... No... Sheik does that, but with a 5% hit. Now, imagine Marth doing that with a disjoint and whatever damage his Fair does. That would be evil. Just pure evil. At the same time, does Marth have the air speed or even the fall speed to do that? Sheik players will fast fall their Fair, jump again to Fair, and repeat. Marth would have the run speed to catch up, but I don't know if he could land in time to run and catch his opponent.

Now, something like Ike or Diddy's Fair landing lag might be okay. Marth could Fair, not have a lot of landing lag, and continue to do something else. Still, not sure if that's what Marth "needs".

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3cunn4/are_customs_the_future_i_really_hope_not/
<3 leddit

:4falco:/:4peach: mu thoughts? i personally have a lot of trouble with this mu (as peach) but i can see why it would be easier than i make it out to be. falco is pretty good at boxing but has poor mobility, but so does peach. she also has a significantly better projectile without 30 years of endlag, so idk.
Last I remember, not in Falco's favor. We have a thread on it: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...sion-10-peach-from-corneria-with-love.391298/.

Falco has issues against disjoints due to being slow. His aerials don't really have much range which makes intercepting Peach's Fair and maybe Nair. Doesn't help that Peach's Uair is disjointed while Falco's Dair is slow. As for Peach's Dair, I don't think Falco can do much unless she's floating right above the ground and Falco can hit a Ftilt or Side Smash. Reflector would work if it didn't have a lot of end lag making it really punishable; Reflector Void would be awesome against Peach because of the reward alone. The issue with that is that good Peach players would hold onto a Vegetable which means Falco has to guess whether she's going to throw it or just float in with an aerial. He throws out a hitbox, Peach can throw a Veggie and capitalize on hitstun. If he tries to reflect, Peach can just bait Reflector, float in, and hit him.

In the air, Falco would like to be behind Peach, but he'll need to hit her first since Peach's Bair and Nair are fairly quick and strong. In front of her, above her, and even below her is where he's basically screwed. Although the patch made Falco's aerials safer and more reliable, the issue of range is still there. He'd like to be on the ground, but Peach's float already gives Falco issues because of float aerials. Now, if she's not floating for whatever reason, Falco probably would like that since he can challenge anything and use Dtilt to space.

Edgeguarding probably goes in Peach's favor since Falco's recovery is just... yeah... Let's not speak of it. It'd be great if Falco's Falco Phantasm functioned well instead of just functioning, but whatever. At the same time, if Falco can force Peach to go deep, it might not be fun for Peach. Falco can probably intercept Peach Bomber if not just trade with it.

Then there's the fact that Peach has Dark.Pch which means Peach's metagame is probably miles ahead of Falco...

Ken has always been very offensive and SFV just seems to emphasize that more with the new animations more than anything. No doubt he changed but his playstyle is still intact.

Bison on the other hand...kinda hard to tell. His playstyle is all space control and footsies with his walk speed and pokes, but SFV seems to be trying to make him very aggressive by giving him more tools in exchange for his walk speed which was a stable of his moveset. Definitely different though for now.
The V skill is his combat roll from a previous game, right? I don't know, but maybe Ken would play different, but not super different, but still more offensive... Eh.
 

NachoOfCheese

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the fact of the matter is that Lucas' throws kill in more situations than ness' bthrow, albeit somewhat later

he can kill off the top like Mewtwo, at the edge facing towards the blast zone with fthrow, and away from the blast zone with bthrow

his dthrow combos are also harder to DI due to the angle it tosses them at
Doesn't matter. Ness's Bthrow kills from anywhere and it's still earlier than Lucas's.
 

Emblem Lord

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Zero actually never says he wants SH Doube FAir back. He wants to see the endlag and knockback changed so your can chain them together like Sheik.
So basically Zero likes to talk out of his ass.

Thank you for letting me know I do not ever need to listen to anything this man has to say.
 
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A_Kae

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Oh man... No... Sheik does that, but with a 5% hit. Now, imagine Marth doing that with a disjoint and whatever damage his Fair does. That would be evil. Just pure evil. At the same time, does Marth have the air speed or even the fall speed to do that? Sheik players will fast fall their Fair, jump again to Fair, and repeat. Marth would have the run speed to catch up, but I don't know if he could land in time to run and catch his opponent.

Now, something like Ike or Diddy's Fair landing lag might be okay. Marth could Fair, not have a lot of landing lag, and continue to do something else. Still, not sure if that's what Marth "needs".
Fair 7/10 damage btw. Don't know if he's got the speed to make it work like sheik does if you just adjusted the move itself. He might need a bit more speed to go with it, I'm not sure. But, yes, you really don't want Marth having a fair like that. Or even close to it.

There's nothing that Marth really 'needs'. He's got some issue with hitboxes that I think should be fixed, (u-tilt, fair, jab 2 are the biggest offenders) but he's got every thing he needs to fight and win against most of the cast.

Zero actually never says he wants SH Doube FAir back. He wants to see the endlag and knockback changed so your can chain them together like Sheik.
That would be the same thing. Shorthop fair doesn't work because Marth lands on the frame before a hitbox is out. If it was reduced by 4 frames, the entire arc would come out, and you would have SH double fair.

ZeRo is just talking about things he doesn't understand. And giving his position, he really shouldn't be doing that.
 
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Gamegenie222

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So.. ZeRo released two videos regarding the buffs of Link and Marcina.

For Marcina: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfl6nFuv9SA
For Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh0MJIRiwAg

To summarize the videos for those who doesn't want to watch it. He still thinks Link and Marcina are still crap despite the buffs and that Link should have a Frame 6 grab while Marcina should have SH Double Fair back.
Why does he keep bringing up PM Link in these vids with Link I will never know.
 

Ffamran

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You never should listen to what Zero says in the first place.
Like seriously.
Or rather, listen, but question, make a counterargument, and reason for yourself instead of blindly listening to what anyone says.

Welp, EVO's next week... Anyone want to make a predictions list of who and what characters are going to win? If not, we could pick a random character to talk about like... Kirby.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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What exactly will SH double fair fix?

What even needs to be fixed?

Why do I need to care about what this non Marth player is saying about Marth that clearly doesn't even know.
This kinda how I feel when watching Zero videos. Sometimes it can be a bit annoying. At least he doesn'thave a hatred for your main.
 

Sinister Slush

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Or rather, listen, but question. make a counterargument, and reason for yourself instead of blindly listening to what anyone says.
Well I mean, for a good portion of people in the scene that has some sense. They've heard enough from Zero early on to know not to listen to him by now.
Since the brawl days at that for me at least.
 

NachoOfCheese

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What exactly will SH double fair fix?

What even needs to be fixed?

Why do I need to care about what this non Marth player is saying about Marth that clearly doesn't even know.
To be fair, that's the entirety of this thread.
People just say stuff like "I feel like Game and Watch (insert mindless speculation about matchups that have never been played here)"
Seriously, I know it probably gets annoying when every single time you see "NachoOfCheese" in your alerts you get a post with DK this and DK that but here's the thing. When I post, I'm confident that what I'm saying is valid. If someone asked me to talk about say Palutena, I'm not gonna say anything about her because I don't know anything about her. But people like to talk the talk on here.
 

Ffamran

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Well I mean, for a good portion of people in the scene that has some sense. They've heard enough from Zero early on to know not to listen to him by now.
Since the brawl days at that for me at least.
Whoops, didn't mean to target you... I should put disclaimers on my posts. :p

Still, for me, everyone can have a point even if it's like one point in a mess of whatever they're trying to say. So, I would take that one word of what they're saying and question the rest.
 

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Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
302
Welp, EVO's next week... Anyone want to make a predictions list of who and what characters are going to win? If not, we could pick a random character to talk about like... Kirby.
Prediction: Top 8 will feature 5 characters using 1111, a 1131 Fox, a 2311 Pikachu, and a 2311 Rosalina. This will definitively prove that customs are OP, somehow.
 
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Speed Boost

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
195
Location
Ganymede
Fair 7/10 damage btw. Don't know if he's got the speed to make it work like sheik does if you just adjusted the move itself. He might need a bit more speed to go with it, I'm not sure. But, yes, you really don't want Marth having a fair like that. Or even close to it.

There's nothing that Marth really 'needs'. He's got some issue with hitboxes that I think should be fixed, (u-tilt, fair, jab 2 are the biggest offenders) but he's got every thing he needs to fight and win against most of the cast.



That would be the same thing. Shorthop fair doesn't work because Marth lands on the frame before a hitbox is out. If it was reduced by 4 frames, the entire arc would come out, and you would have SH double fair.

ZeRo is just talking about things he doesn't understand. And giving his position, he really shouldn't be doing that.
Actually if it just auto cancelled sooner it wouldn't be the same thing. Just like Sheik doesn't do two FAirs in a SH. If it's possible for Sheik, it's probably possible to make Marth do something similar.
 
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LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
If someone asked me to talk about say Palutena, I'm not gonna say anything about her because I don't know anything about her. But people like to talk the talk on here.
Talk to me about Palutena or someone in this thread will die ever hour on the hour O_O

On a more serious note, why don't we discuss... OH! I saw a friend discussing a bit on who to main the other day, and saw they were having a hard time choosing between :4duckhunt: and :4robinf:. I thought the doggy would be the obvious choice, but maybe people here could talk pros/cons of each and I can send them here to read?
 
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