Character Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Okay, so with permission:

Roy's down throw appears to have been needed. I expected it to be a good combo starter, and it seems like we have confirmation of that. Further, his attacks are stronger at the hilt as always. My assumption is tips for combos, into hilt for the kill.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think mayham is hard to contain right now and I won't be having much time to really enforce it for at least today.
If you guys avoid one liners (i.e. "ZOMG HYPE") I won't come back later to infract/warn. So yeah, try to keep it less-social like.


@Cassio

Oh okay. My opinions are customs off. A lot of characters get good tools that compete with ZSS mid and long range capabilities (Fox laser, Sonic stuff). However, the non-paralyzing laser choice is underused and likely counteracts a lot of this pressure she puts herself under, but alas.
And yeah, sorry for misunderstanding you

1. ZSS ****s on fatties, none of them fall out of up-b, likely ever and this makes disgusting things possible from any vertical confirm. Seeing as dthrow up-b is unavoidable for nearly every fatty and kills at 80%, she invalidates them in practice IMO:
... is interesting, flame thrower is a really good perturbing tool against her, but his fate mostly remains the same.

2. ZSS tends to demolish characters who don't have frame safety enough on shield to avoid being grabbed, uptilted or jabbed reliably:
2a. Character's who can't avoid back throw down-b in practice: (this list is likely larger, fyi)

3. Other characters that don't have reliable answers to zair (and usually can be flip jumped for trying):

4. Characters who [can] get out spaced/walled:

5. Competitive characters against her that die too early so it's manageable:
5a. Competitive characters otherwise (imo) [Sheik dies very early but is one of two top tiers who naturally fall out of up-b (the other being ZSS herself)].

I personally disagree Ganon is invalidated against ZSS. I think that matchup is more like 55/45 her favor right now. The Up-B jank is silly when it happens, but it depends a lot on a risky grab at a certain range to confirm easily. Ganon also kills ZSS pretty early as well, actually has very good attacks for contesting her DownB directly, and she can't edgeguard him nearly as well as other characters, meaning once either she or Ganon is past the percent/rage range where her Up-B confirm happens, she doesn't easily end Ganon's stock.

One thing Ganon has that the other heavies don't have is a REALLY good N-air. He can beat basically any of ZSS's aerials directly with it, which makes him less vulnerable to being anti-aired as he tries to navigate around her stuff.

 

[Shaya]

As the tallest character in the game, A2. Sorry, he has no chance.
He can be hit with any rising aerial (one of ZSS' weaknesses against 90% of the cast), and can also be shield pressured by UP AIR.
If ZSS can get away with ff up airing into you, you're going to die at any percent.

He is legitimately a walking combo-fodder for Zero Suit. And as ZSS can be outside of Ganon's footsie range and grab any of his things on reaction (something most other characters cannot do to negate Ganon's massive range)...

 

[FullMoon]

I noticed Greninja wasn't mentioned so I was wondering where he'd fall into. His MU against ZSS always struck me as even.

 

[Shaya]

^ Evenish, maybe even in his favour. It's unfortunately a camp match up I think.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As the tallest character in the game, A2. Sorry, he has no chance.
He can be hit with any rising aerial (one of ZSS' weaknesses against 90% of the cast), and can also be shield pressured by UP AIR.
If ZSS can get away with ff up airing into you, you're going to die at any percent.

He is legitimately a walking combo-fodder for Zero Suit.

Ganon's height almost never comes into play the way you argue it. If Ganon is actually doing anything on the ground, he will be doing DA, F-smash, or D-tilt, where ZSS cannot rising aerial him safely given his model height is reduced at this point.

Furthermore, Ganon really doesn't want to shield as much as he wants to space with fullhops in this matchup given his aerials are good, but he doesn't always have quick punishes for Paralyzer zoning on the ground.

 

[FullMoon]

^ Evenish, maybe even in his favour. It's unfortunately a camp match up I think.

His favor? Huh.

Something I noticed about ZSS vs Greninja is that similarly to the MK MU, Greninja can get out of ZSS's Up-B with Shadow Sneak cancel and, if he ends up behind ZSS, even punish her for it. The timing however seems to be really strict, I only managed to pull it off once.

Though bringing it up when a patch is coming is probably not very wise of my part.

 

[Shaya]

The patch that apparently dropped in Japan would mean we couldn't play wifi with them if there was balance changes...
Neither character can approach one another. Both characters jab into kill confirm on each other (jab up-b or jab up smash from greninja). Greninja's height vs ZSS disjoints. I'd perhaps prefer Marth here as sh air dodge approaching is bogus.

Ganon's height almost never comes into play the way you argue it. If Ganon is actually doing anything on the ground, he will be doing DA, F-smash, or D-tilt, where ZSS cannot rising aerial him safely given his model height is reduced at this point.

Furthermore, Ganon really doesn't want to shield as much as he wants to space with fullhops in this matchup given his aerials are good, but he doesn't always have quick punishes for Paralyzer zoning on the ground.

Actually it does. ZSS' main weakness in play style is needing to reach the apex of her jump before she can safely act. She outspaces all 3 of those grounded tools too.

And you can't just jump freely in the match up, you're going to get zaired, baired (disjointed) or naired (also disjointed) or your landing grabbed. We have transcended priority tools in both dash attack (that's disjointed) and down smash, which ganon poses little risk to ZSS doing it at a mid range.

 

[Thinkaman]

Here is the correct link to the Roy and Ryu subforum.

But seriously, this thread is fine for analysis of actual mechanics. (And resulting speculation.) Keep content-less hype in said subforum, easy.

 

[FullMoon]

Did all Japanese players get the patch though? Considering the patch was only up for a very short time I wouldn't be surprise if only a few people got it, unless everybody's Wii U automatically downloaded the update.

 

[Shaya]

Well it was the point I was trying to see from all this hacking stuff, so if anyone's seen an explicit "there are balance changes" they should let us know so we can prepare for another multiday/week/month ****fest.

(Pray for thinkaman's soul).

 

[Ryu_Ken]

How effective are Ganon's specials against ZSS? I've used his down b to prevent juggles (though not as much given how laggy it is) and his side b to punish dash attacks in other MUs, but Im not really aware of ZSS's tools in this MU.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well it was the point I was trying to see from all this hacking stuff, so if anyone's seen an explicit "there are balance changes" they should let us know so we can prepare for another multiday/week/month ****fest.

(Pray for thinkaman's soul).

I don't even have 2 systems to use this time--you ******** are on your own!

 

[thehard]

Noticed that Ryu has a bunch of hitlag on his aerials, for that SF flavor

 

[A2ZOMG]

The patch that apparently dropped in Japan would mean we couldn't play wifi with them if there was balance changes...


Actually it does.

And you can't just jump freely in the match up, you're going to get zaired, baired (disjointed) or naired (also disjointed) or your landing grabbed. We have transcended priority tools in both dash attack (that's disjointed) and down smash, which ganon poses little risk to ZSS doing it at a mid range.

B-air is somewhat scary but Ganon's N-air has about the same range and does the same damage. While she can outspace with Z-air, the followups on that are only good in specific positions, and N-air is not exactly super fast or super awesome in situations where it isn't spaced close to the ground so I doubt you'd pick that for an anti-air option most of the time anyway.

ZSS DA is a good anti-air though it still can trade with Ganon's N-air, and the reward on it is really low. D-smash is safe to throw out in midrange yes, not going to argue against that though by itself ZSS usually won't land it unless her opponent makes some kind of critical error. Most of the other options ZSS has against Ganon, individually they're punishable since Ganon actually has good aerials to defend himself against approaches, and he's by far much better off confirming the KO on ZSS when he easily beats her Down-B kicks with U-air and has Flame Choke setups to count on, and plus his lingering aerials actually are good for covering her recovery options on a read.

Ganon does much better at not getting his landing grabbed compared to some other heavies given not only does he have good spacing aerials, aerial Wizkick can't be disrespected either as he lands. Note that I never argued the matchup wasn't favorable for ZSS, but invalidating is a pretty blatant stretch. He functions in neutral by having better spacing aerials than other heavies (and the relative risk of being anti-aired by ZSS is considerably lower than dealing with her ground options) and also has win situations either from Flame Choke or generic U-air juggles which will kill ZSS more than respectably early enough.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

B-air is somewhat scary but Ganon's N-air has about the same range and does the same damage. While she can outspace with Z-air, the followups on that are only good in specific positions, and N-air is not exactly super fast or super awesome in situations where it isn't spaced close to the ground.

ZSS DA is a good anti-air though it still can trade with Ganon's N-air, and the reward on it is really low. D-smash is safe to throw out in midrange yes, not going to argue against that though by itself ZSS usually won't land it unless her opponent makes some kind of critical error. Most of the other options ZSS has against Ganon, individually they're punishable since Ganon actually has good aerials to defend himself against approaches, and he's by far much better off confirming the KO on ZSS when he easily beats her Down-B with U-air and has Flame Choke setups to count on.

Ganon does much better at not getting his landing grabbed compared to some other heavies given not only does he have good spacing aerials, aerial Wizkick can't be disrespected either as he lands. Note that I never argued the matchup wasn't favorable for ZSS, but invalidating is a pretty blatant stretch. He functions in neutral by having better spacing aerials than other heavies (and the relative risk of being anti-aired by ZSS is considerably lower than dealing with her ground options) and also has win situations either from Flame Choke or generic U-air juggles which will kill ZSS more than respectably early enough.

Yeah, this isn't a 90/10 MU for ZSS, but it's definitely not 60/40 for her, either. Ganon aerials are pretty laggy, so he's pretty vulnerable to Paralyzer and ZSS's Side B.
May I ask, how does Ganon defend himself with his aerials? I know Uair and Nair are good options against ZSS down b and some of her aerials, but I wager he has a really hard time defending himself in the air.

 

[bc1910]

@ Shaya Greninja doesn't get jab into Usmash. Unless it's some ZSS specific thing. Could you elaborate? The only way I can see it working is if Greninja does jab 1, jab 2, hyphen Usmash to catch her jump, but even then she could jump airdodge.

Also most of his attacks don't have the frame safety on shield to not at least get jabbed reliably. But realistically hardly anyone does since jab is an 8 frame OoS option for her, and at least Greninja has range/retreating aerials on his side. It's not a MU killer. I agree it's a camp MU, probably even, I think slightly in her favour right now but I can see it getting closer more than I can see it getting worse for Greninja.

 

[Ffamran]

I apologize for coming off harsh, but I didn't want stuff to be consumed by hype and I didn't know the extent of what's been found other than they're in the game, people have been showing them off, and etc. Apparently, there's some frame data found. That's okay, but hype stuff like, "OMG, RYU'S IN!" is not okay, but something like, "Ryu's air speed is ___", is fine.

It looks like Ryu's air speed looks good, but he might have the same issue that Shulk and Little Mac have: inertia. If Ryu's going left, he's going left. Jumps are good considering he's, well... a human with martial arts training and not someone like Mario or Luigi. It doesn't look like he's a fast faller. He's fast on the ground and his Dash Attack look like there's little end lag. Hadouken can't be spammed quickly - Ryu has to time it or end up shooting a nothing - and Ryu's need to connect hits before canceling into another move means he has to be on point - I wonder how shields will affect him since if he hits and can cancel, he could feint moves, but if he hits shields and suffers end lag, then that's going to be a pain in his game. Uair - said to be deceptively short and hits twice - and Dair have short range sort of like Little Mac's and Fair? looks like a sex kick. Still, I wonder if Ryu can do the whole Uair to Shoryuken like Meta Knight, ZSS, and Mario can with their Uair to Up Special.

Roy's fast on the ground and in the air. Fast dashing speed carried from Melee, air speed might be faster, but I don't remember much from Melee, and his fast fall speed. Short hop fast falls will be a thing with Roy, but might not be with aerials, so Roy could do the same bait thing all fast fallers can do, but not something like short hop fast fall Nair like Fox, but I don't know what Roy's auto-cancel windows are, so take that with a grain of salt. His jump might be an issue since while he's fast in the air, having a low jump and being a fast faller will probably hurt his recovery. Then again, Wolf's jump was low and his fall speed and air speed were incredible allowing him to throw out aerials which had good auto-cancel windows or came out quickly - don't know about Roy's. Blazer being able to angle and the fact it multi-hits would mean Roy can probably do the same thing as Mario with his Super Jump Punch to lengthen combos and get out compared to Marth and Lucina doing something more similar to Dr. Mario with a strong, single hit. Probably because of animation changes - dude loves his reverse grip swings with jab, Ftilt, Utilt, Dash Attack, Blazer, and Counter -, but Roy's range seems kind of short for a swordsman, but that might aid in his ability to center his hits since he doesn't exactly have that range to play with compared to Marth, Lucina, the Pits, Ike, and obviously, Shulk. Hopefully, his Up Smash doesn't have issues like Zelda, Samus and Mewtwo's, but considering the recent patches addressing Zelda's, that might not be a thing. I can't tell if his Nair only hits in front and while Dair looks cool - Ike -, not swinging his sword could create an issue where he can't cover below him well like Marth who can just Dair while Roy has to choose between center with Dair, or the sides with Fair and Bair. Haven't seen his jab hit, but it might be like a Ganondorf and Zelda jab which might ironically make his better than Marth and Lucina's if it has the knockback to push people away while being fairly quick or average in speed.

 

[FullMoon]

It would be a beautiful thing if Greninja could jab -> sweetspot Up-Smash.

Though I have plenty of ZSS experience and a lot of time most of my problems with her is that, well, she's pretty much as fast as me.

Oh, and Flip Jump. I always underestimate the range of that damned move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, this isn't a 90/10 MU for ZSS, but it's definitely not 60/40 for her, either. Ganon aerials are pretty laggy, so he's pretty vulnerable to Paralyzer and ZSS's Side B.
May I ask, how does Ganon defend himself with his aerials? I know Uair and Nair are good options against ZSS down b and some of her aerials, but I wager he has a really hard time defending himself in the air.

A lot of it comes down to the simple fact that Ganon kills pretty early, honestly. Also his KO confirm situations are better than the other heavies.

Furthermore ZSS can't really get much done against Ganon without approaching at some point. She doesn't exactly force approaches, given Paralyzer is kinda slow (even if relatively safe on shield). She has potentially devastating juggles, but they hinge on a grab, which can be punished heavily if anticipated. In that way, both Ganon and ZSS really just have to play a fair midrange game to get anywhere. And if she doesn't kill Ganon with her juggles, he survives much better in this matchup than in others given she doesn't have great low edgeguards.

The way I see it, both characters have to guess to win. ZSS might have to guess in slightly fewer situations, but regardless she doesn't have a perfect way to wall Ganon who can contest a lot of her preferred tools with aerials, and Ganon actually has above average KO confirms on her. I say 55/45 ZSS favor because her grab by design is too risky and makes the neutral game a fair guessing game on both ends. Arguably 6/4 her favor given her grab reward can be pretty stupid regardless, but by all means I think it's a competitive matchup.

 

[BSP]

It depends on the spacing, but he could Down-B on the edge closest to you (assuming you're not directly in the center) and the trampoline will teleport him backward into the center of it, for instance. Things like that. Trampoline is a great tool for dealing with grounded opponents and forcing people to jump, but you have to be proactive about your offense/defense at that point; I think it's a bit overrated as a reactive defensive tool.

Something I think people forget or don't enough credit to is that trampoline takes dash grabs and running games out of the neutral game completely. I think Pac-Man is one of the better characters at handling Falcon and Sonic's neutral games because he can essentially remove their running and grab games from the equation. The cost is his grab, but not having to worry about Sonic running / spindashing circles around you or eating 30% from Falcon grab shenanigans is nice.

I know you guys love to talk about trampoline forcing aerial approaches, but what about characters that have decent/good options on shield when landing, like Sheik's spaced Fair or to a lesser extent Ness' Bair?

Jump up and challenge with Pac-Man's own aerials, or don't shield and instead challenge with Utilt or U smash. Utilt has some invincibility and Usmash is a pretty big disjoint. If Pac-Man has a Bell charged, it's a pretty effective anti-air as well.

I personally believe Sonic is our worse MU. We have to play extremely lame to get control over him. (Stalling on the ledge and using trampoline/hydrant traps the entire match). And even then these tactics are punishable if you mess up.

I agree on how we have to run from Sonic the entire time, but I don't think he's the worst if Pac-Man camps the ledge no matter what. Trampoline heavily controls Sonic's game and puts him at significant risk whenever he approaches, and the same goes for Fox. I think Pac-Man loses to Sonic 40:60 and I'm not positive about Fox, but it's probably not that much different.

I think Sheik and Pikachu are the worst because of how easily they can ignore Pac-Man's zoning efforts.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

A lot of it comes down to the simple fact that Ganon kills pretty early, honestly. Also his KO confirm situations are better than the other heavies.

Furthermore ZSS can't really get much done against Ganon without approaching at some point. She doesn't exactly force approaches, given Paralyzer is kinda slow (even if relatively safe on shield). She has potentially devastating juggles, but they hinge on a grab, which can be punished heavily if anticipated. In that way, both Ganon and ZSS really just have to play a fair midrange game to get anywhere. And if she doesn't kill Ganon with her juggles, he survives much better in this matchup than in others given she doesn't have great low edgeguards.

The way I see it, both characters have to guess to win. ZSS might have to guess in slightly fewer situations, but regardless she doesn't have a perfect way to wall Ganon who can contest a lot of her preferred tools with aerials, and Ganon actually has above average KO confirms on her. I say 55/45 ZSS favor because her grab by design is too risky and makes the neutral game a fair guessing game on both ends.

55/45? That's pushing it a bit. I'd say 70/30 because though he might be intimidating due to potential for early kills, he's not so intimidating once ZSS punishes his laggy attacks and shuts down his recovery. A good Ganon player can cause ZSS to struggle, but since he requires more and harder reads than ZSS, this MU isn't that great for him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

55/45? That's pushing it a bit. I'd say 70/30 because though he might be intimidating due to potential for early kills, he's not so intimidating once ZSS punishes his laggy attacks and shuts down his recovery. A good Ganon player can cause ZSS to struggle, but since he requires more and harder reads than ZSS, this MU isn't that great for him.

N-air and D-tilt aren't exactly that laggy and require pretty non-trivial reads to punish if he's not being really careless against Paralyzer. Furthermore ZSS does much worse gimping Ganon's recovery compared to most of the cast given she does not have good low hitting aerials besides a suicidal D-air. Without the Up-B juggle gimps (or the gimmick B-throw setup, idk), Ganon probably survives to about 150% in this matchup if he avoids getting F-smashed.

I don't think this matchup is really any worse than say...Captain Falcon vs Ganondorf, which ranges about 55/45 to 6/4 Falcon's favor imo. For slightly different reasons given Falcon has a terrible recovery but a better dashgrab, but the neutral game is very similar in this matchup.

 

[Aquamentii]

N-air and D-tilt aren't exactly that laggy and require pretty non-trivial reads to punish if he's not being really careless against Paralyzer. Furthermore ZSS does much worse gimping Ganon's recovery compared to most of the cast given she does not have good low hitting aerials besides a suicidal D-air. Without the Up-B juggle gimps (or the gimmick B-throw setup, idk), Ganon probably survives to about 150% in this matchup if he avoids getting F-smashed.

ZSS's downB is a huge option against Ganon, both while juggling as a finisher/mixup and it is very powerful for edge guarding/gimping.Her neutral B and down smash as well as grab all serve as easy kill setups on him, and while Dtilt is a great tool for him Paralyzer outranges it. I personally think that ZSS is one of Ganon's worst MU's.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

N-air and D-tilt aren't exactly that laggy and require pretty non-trivial reads to punish if he's not being really careless against Paralyzer. Furthermore ZSS does much worse gimping Ganon's recovery compared to most of the cast given she does not have good low hitting aerials besides a suicidal D-air. Without the Up-B juggle gimps (or the gimmick B-throw setup, idk), Ganon probably survives to about 150% in this matchup if he avoids getting F-smashed.

ZSS can easily control the direction down b goes (much like Sheik's) to shut down Ganon's horizontal recovery. And if Ganon tries recovering low, Fair will keep him away from the ledge. Of course, Ganon can't be gimped easily at low%, but mid-high% will certainly ensure his Demise (BA dum tsssss )

 

[Aquamentii]

Ganon's worst matchup is probably a tossup between Diddy, Shiek, Pikachu, and Yoshi. Yoshi in particular is a nightmare. So many eggs...

 

[David Viran]

N-air and D-tilt aren't exactly that laggy and require pretty non-trivial reads to punish if he's not being really careless against Paralyzer. Furthermore ZSS does much worse gimping Ganon's recovery compared to most of the cast given she does not have good low hitting aerials besides a suicidal D-air. Without the Up-B juggle gimps (or the gimmick B-throw setup, idk), Ganon probably survives to about 150% in this matchup if he avoids getting F-smashed.

I don't think this matchup is really any worse than say...Captain Falcon vs Ganondorf, which ranges about 55/45 to 6/4 Falcon's favor imo. For slightly different reasons given Falcon has a terrible recovery but a better dashgrab, but the neutral game is very similar in this matchup.

Nah spike set ups are real. There are so many ways to set up the spike for zss's flip jump. No way should he be surviving till 150% consistently.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ZSS's downB is a huge option against Ganon, both while juggling as a finisher/mixup and it is very powerful for edge guarding/gimping.Her neutral B and down smash as well as grab all serve as easy kill setups on him, and while Dtilt is a great tool for him Paralyzer outranges it. I personally think that ZSS is one of Ganon's worst MU's.

ZSS Down-B sucks for edgeguarding. Shouldn't hit anyone except like...DK and Little Mac maybe? It's a legitimate juggle option, I will give it that. ZSS however can't safely reach Ganon's low recovery with anything except like B-air.

Grab is a good kill setup, but only at a certain range, and it's also very punishable. Neutral B and D-smash are relatively safe, but slow startup and won't do much unless Ganon makes a mistake.

ZSS is nowhere near the difficulty of Luigi, Pikachu, and Rosalina for Ganon imo. Very competitively winnable matchup. The latter ones are much less preferable competitively.

ZSS can easily control the direction down b goes (much like Sheik's) to shut down Ganon's horizontal recovery. And if Ganon tries recovering low, Fair will keep him away from the ledge. Of course, Ganon can't be gimped easily at low%, but mid-high% will certainly ensure his Demise (BA dum tsssss )

Sheik's Down-B is both faster and covers more options by lingering longer. Not a good comparison.

I don't get how you edgeguard with F-air unless Ganon is just barely reaching the ledge and would be gimped by anything. If he hugs the stage, you're not gimping him unless he fails to tech a stage spike. There's a number of characters that can edgeguard Ganon well. ZSS is not one of them.

Nah spike set ups are real. There are so many ways to set up the spike for zss's flip jump. No way should he be surviving till 150% consistently.

They all can be airdodged on reaction and recovered against safely unless that gimmick B-throw setup actually combos at a specific percent. ZSS's primary kill options against Ganon are either Up-B, B-air, or paralyze confirms into F-smash.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Ganon's worst matchup is probably a tossup between Diddy, Shiek, Pikachu, and Yoshi. Yoshi in particular is a nightmare. So many eggs...

I'd say Sheik and Yoshi are tied for Ganon's worst matchup. Sheik especially because Ganon can't really escape her combos and strings. Also, Sheik and Yoshi both capitalize on his laggy moves extremely well.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS Down-B sucks for edgeguarding. Shouldn't hit anyone except like...DK and Little Mac maybe? It's a legitimate juggle option, I will give it that. ZSS however can't safely reach Ganon's low recovery with anything except like B-air.

Grab is a good kill setup, but only at a certain range, and it's also very punishable. Neutral B and D-smash are relatively safe, but slow startup and won't do much unless Ganon makes a mistake.

Sheik's Down-B is both faster and covers more options by lingering longer. Not a good comparison.

I don't get how you edgeguard with F-air unless Ganon is just barely reaching the ledge and would be gimped by anything. If he hugs the stage, you're not gimping him unless he fails to tech a stage spike. There's a number of characters that can edgeguard Ganon well. ZSS is not one of them.

They all can be airdodged on reaction and recovered against safely unless that gimmick B-throw setup actually combos at a specific percent. ZSS's primary kill options against Ganon are either Up-B, B-air, or paralyze confirms into F-smash.

No they are not. First off flip jump from traps air dodges. Bair to down b true combos so does nair and dsmash to down b. Flip jump can catch the one frame vulnerability when grabbing the ledge and spike you out of it.

 

[Aquamentii]

ZSS Down-B sucks for edgeguarding. Shouldn't hit anyone except like...DK and Little Mac maybe? It's a legitimate juggle option, I will give it that. ZSS however can't safely reach Ganon's low recovery with anything except like B-air.

Grab is a good kill setup, but only at a certain range, and it's also very punishable. Neutral B and D-smash are relatively safe, but slow startup and won't do much unless Ganon makes a mistake.

ZSS is nowhere near the difficulty of Luigi, Pikachu, Villager, and Rosalina for Ganon imo.

Sheik's Down-B is both faster and covers more options by lingering longer. Not a good comparison.

I don't get how you edgeguard with F-air unless Ganon is just barely reaching the ledge and would be gimped by anything. If he hugs the stage, you're not gimping him unless he fails to tech a stage spike. There's a number of characters that can edgeguard Ganon well. ZSS is not one of them.

They all can be airdodged on reaction and recovered against safely unless that gimmick B-throw setup actually combos at a specific percent. ZSS's primary kill options against Ganon are either Up-B, B-air, or paralyze confirms into F-smash.

I would need to test this first to see its effectiveness, but would run off->reverse upB be a good edge guard against him? ZSS's upB has little range, but as long as you avoid the grab box of Ganon's upB and don't go too deep I could see that being a really dangerous stage spike, since multihit moves are harder to tech bc you have to anticipate when you'll get released. This is just a theory but that could work... also because of ZSS's tether she has a super easy time ledge trumping, which I believe true combos(and if it's not a TC then timing must be very tight to escape) into Bair, so unless Ganon is mashing a getup option he'll die.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I don't get how you edgeguard with F-air unless Ganon is just barely reaching the ledge and would be gimped by anything. If he hugs the stage, you're not gimping him unless he fails to tech a stage spike. There's a number of characters that can edgeguard Ganon well. ZSS is not one of them.

Let me rephrase that: ZSS fair will keep Ganon from trying to recover vertically. Ganon can air dodge and or try to counter with his aerials, but ZSS Fair comes out faster than his aerials. I mentioned mid-high% for a reason since Fair's knock back works pretty well at those %s. I did not mean to imply that a ZSS player would use Fair to spike Ganon since Ganon probably won't be hugging the edge of the stage when he's knocked back at mid-high%.

 

[Aquamentii]

Does anybody else think that it's ridiculous that Yoshi's Dair does 32% and breaks shields?

 

[Unknownkid]

@ Ffamran It is alright. I didn't mean to turn it into "ZOMG HYPE". This is Competitive Impression Board not the Social Board. We should act as it is intended.

Small bit about Kirby with Ryu Hat. Similar to Lucario's Aura, Kirby doesn't get the SF mechanic with Hadoken when he copies Ryu. So he unable to do EX Hadoken () or Red Hadoken (). That is a shame but I guess that make sense.

Does anybody else think that it's ridiculous that Yoshi's Dair does 32% and breaks shields?

It doesn't shield break. You will be shield poke before it breaks your shield.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Does anybody else think that it's ridiculous that Yoshi's Dair does 32% and breaks shields?

It breaks shields? I wanna see a gif or a video on this (I can't check right now unfortuanetly)

 

[Aquamentii]

It breaks shields? I wanna see a gif or a video on this (I can't check right now unfortuanetly)

If you get in most/all of the hits it destroys shields, in fact it's just better to let your shield dwindle and then take the last 7-8%. Then there's his Down B, which kills, ALSO breaks shields, and has almost no cooldown despite being almost as powerful as Bowser's.

 

[Ffamran]

Let me rephrase that: ZSS fair will keep Ganon from trying to recover vertically. Ganon can air dodge and or try to counter with his aerials, but ZSS Fair comes out faster than his aerials. I mentioned mid-high% for a reason since Fair's knock back works pretty well at those %s. I did not mean to imply that a ZSS player would use Fair to spike Ganon since Ganon probably won't be hugging the edge of the stage when he's knocked back at mid-high%.

Ganondorf's fastest aerial is Uair (frame 6) followed by Nair (frame 7), Bair (frame 10), Fair (frame 14), and Dair (frame 16). ZSS's fastest aerials are Fair and Uair (both frame 6), followed by Bair (frame 8), Nair (frame 10), and Dair (frame 14). If anything, Ganondorf and ZSS are fairly close in aerial hit speed, but ZSS has much better air speed, jumps, and more options - Fair and Uair to trade with Ganondorf's Uair -, and range - Nair. Ganondorf, however, has much more power which considering if you mis-space Fair and Ganondorf is under you, it's probably not going to be fun times.

Does anybody else think that it's ridiculous that Yoshi's Dair does 32% and breaks shields?

That's assuming he can land all of the hits, it's slow enough to see compared to his Nair, and Yoshi can't really drift away with it like Fair meaning Yoshi might end up landing with Dair and suffer landing lag.

 

[Aquamentii]

Ganondorf's fastest aerial is Uair (frame 6) followed by Nair (frame 7), Bair (frame 10), Fair (frame 14), and Dair (frame 16). ZSS's fastest aerials are Fair and Uair (both frame 6), followed by Bair (frame 8), Nair (frame 10), and Dair (frame 14). If anything, Ganondorf and ZSS are fairly close in aerial hit speed, but ZSS has much better air speed, jumps, and more options - Fair and Uair to trade with Ganondorf's Uair -, and range - Nair. Ganondorf, however, has much more power which considering if you mis-space Fair and Ganondorf is under you, it's probably not going to be fun times.


That's assuming he can land all of the hits, it's slow enough to see compared to his Nair, and Yoshi can't really drift away with it like Fair meaning Yoshi might end up landing with Dair and suffer landing lag.

On Pikachu Dair wouldn't be too good of an option yes, but against tall characters like Ganon, WFT, and Marth, It's a great option on shield because short hopping into it gets you all of the hits.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

If you get in most/all of the hits it destroys shields, in fact it's just better to let your shield dwindle and then take the last 7-8%. Then there's his Down B, which kills, ALSO breaks shields, and has almost no cooldown despite being almost as powerful as Bowser's.

Uh, I wouldn't say Yoshi doesn't suffer from cooldown on his down b. it's not as slow as Ganon's or even Dedede's up b, but like theirs, it's still punishable. It's not safe from aerial approaches.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No they are not. First off flip jump from traps air dodges. Bair to down b true combos so does nair and dsmash to down b. Flip jump can catch the one frame vulnerability when grabbing the ledge and spike you out of it.

Flip Jump doesn't trap anything offstage unless you have awful reaction time. You have to literally get a solid ground confirm near the ledge for most of those combos to work and you're probably just better off killing with B-air 90% of the time if that extremely specific situation presents itself. And if you landed D-smash, you probably are better off confirming F-smash in most situations. Also good luck timing a ledge denial spike in any situation except extremely poor DI.

I heavily disagree Flip Jump edgeguards matter in this matchup, or most matchups.

Let me rephrase that: ZSS fair will keep Ganon from trying to recover vertically. Ganon can air dodge and or try to counter with his aerials, but ZSS Fair comes out faster than his aerials. I mentioned mid-high% for a reason since Fair's knock back works pretty well at those %s. I did not mean to imply that a ZSS player would use Fair to spike Ganon since Ganon probably won't be hugging the edge of the stage when he's knocked back at mid-high%.

You also can't disrespect aerial Wizkick with F-air, which both stalls Ganon's momentum and is able to either kill vertically or spike. Ganon in general really doesn't have a lot of reason to worry about getting edgeguarded by F-air, honestly. And if Ganon DIs well he just has to either aerial Wizkick or fastfall airdodge to get a solid low recovery opportunity. Not a lot ZSS can do to contest directly.

I'd say Sheik and Yoshi are tied for Ganon's worst matchup. Sheik especially because Ganon can't really escape her combos and strings. Also, Sheik and Yoshi both capitalize on his laggy moves extremely well.

Sheik is pretty awful by design, not much to say about that other than rage comebacks are how Ganon tries to win.

Also I definitely don't think Yoshi is anywhere near as hard as Luigi, Pikachu, or Rosalina for Ganon. Yoshi is pretty manageable for everyone in neutral, he's mostly just a heavy punish based character like Ganon honestly.