Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

ROB gets crapped on by Smash 4 physics. He is not good at baiting airdodges. He can't edgeguard low recoveries well. He's one of the worst characers in the game at landing safely and his recovery is also bad. And his damage per hit and KO options aren't good. He does have alright pokes, and lasers make for good followups, and Gyro is somewhat nonsense to play around when set up correctly, but overall his reward is low, and he's easily killed.

Uair seems like it beats airdodges pretty well since it stays active for so long, and it's a kill move too. USmash, FSmash, and UThrow are also solid kill moves. Nair is also a very safe way to land due to its generous autocancel window (dear Sakurai, please give this to Charizard), and he can attack out of his recovery multiple times if he wants to recover low (ie, jetpack a bit, UAir, Jetpack some more), which makes gimping him really tough.

Oracle's been playing a lot of ROB at Shockwave if anyone wants to see ROB gameplay.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Super cancerous high tier character that is literally only held back by weak KO options. But he does have KO confirms, an unreactable approach, good projectiles, ridiculous edgeguarding, gets out of traps 100% free.

ROB gets crapped on by Smash 4 physics. He is not good at baiting airdodges. He can't edgeguard low recoveries well. He's one of the worst characers in the game at landing safely and his recovery is also bad. And his damage per hit and KO options aren't good. He does have alright pokes, and lasers make for good followups, and Gyro is somewhat nonsense to play around when set up correctly, but overall his reward is low, and he's easily killed.

Custom up specials. They're beautiful.

 

[Spinosaurus]

ROB has the most adorable glitch with the rocket booster though so he's top tier in my eyes <3 <3 <3

That said yeah, some of ROB's changes are just unfortunate. FTilt especially is the worst. Still unsure on exactly what to think of him here. (Awesome USmash change aside)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Custom up specials. They're beautiful.

Do educate me. Because ROB's default Up-B is most definitely terrible.

Uair seems like it beats airdodges pretty well since it stays active for so long, and it's a kill move too. USmash, FSmash, and UThrow are also solid kill moves. Nair is also a very safe way to land due to its generous autocancel window (dear Sakurai, please give this to Charizard), and he can attack out of his recovery multiple times if he wants to recover low (ie, jetpack a bit, UAir, Jetpack some more), which makes gimping him really tough.

Oracle's been playing a lot of ROB at Shockwave if anyone wants to see ROB gameplay.

Right, keeping in mind ROB's physics are terrible and that he's liable to overshoot his target by trying to jump into them. Meaning airdodging actually has a very good chance of avoiding ROB's aerial followups in spite of his lingering hitboxes.

U-smash is okay, but definitely not reliable outside of punishing mistakes. F-smash doesn't hit super hard, and is slow. U-throw doesn't kill people pre 150% generally speaking.

N-air is terrible for landing safely except against people who don't try to powershield it. And it's not good for getting out of fast juggle strings.

ROB doesn't get as much fuel in this game, and he is not exactly heavily disjointed. His Up-B is a terrible recovery move and easily intercepted, which combined with ROB's terrible landing options makes his recovery extremely vulnerable.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think you need to look at his eruptions a bit more if you're using it for juggle situations, the worst time to ever consider using it out. Ike also never really fsmashes, Usmash is where it's at.

Eruption is an edgeguarding move in this game, period, and it covers most angles to the edge as well as getup options. What gives eruption 2 the edge over the others against a good portion of the cast that go into freefall with their recovery is that it delivers the most powerful, spammable horizontal windbox in the game. You can charge it onstage to blow away any non-sweetspotting recovery, or use it offstage to complement or replace aerials since it lifts you up. There's also no use attacking it since it gets to the portion with super armor relatively quickly. Unlike the other horizontal windbox customs, it's a sphere around Ike and *much* stronger.

I don't really use Eruption at all honestly. I had no luck at all with Eruption 2 as it seemed really slow and obvious such that opponents could just easily recover past it and was getting the sense that Ike might as well just have three specials (his other three are really good at least!), but it may be a lot easier for me to get to work in a game with good controls (not 3DS) where I'm not so consistently terrified to go off-stage and aggressively edge-guard. I didn't realize that it had a lot of super armor (seemed really unreliable when I was using it), that and changing his momentum seems like it would hypothetically be useful when being juggled too though I certainly had no luck with it (the way you phrased that made me think you were thinking about Ike doing juggles; I mean Ike as the victim of an opposing juggle trying to get down).

Also, to be clear about another thing, my comment about Ike fsmash was just about a broken shield. It kills a lot earlier than usmash, and it doesn't really matter if the move has 45904385 frames of start-up if the opponent can't move. It was a part of the broader context of a super high power move like full charge Eruption not mattering for Ike (since if the opponent really does get shield broken, Ike fully charged fsmash will almost always kill anyway). I do know that Ike usmash is a much better move than fsmash in the general situations in which the opponent is able to move; I'm not the Ike guru like you, but I do know that much...

On that note, can I ask about your thoughts on Dr. Mario? I've been curious myself since your analysis of Mario pretty much matches mine.

I think Doc is worse than default Mario since his combo game is just worse by a lot and his diferent nair/dairs are actually overall worse neutral options, but he's still okay and probably very close to the middle of the cast (if Mario is B+, Doc is B). Doc's extra power is legitimately nice,and the fact that Doc has no reason not to run power up special due to recovery down special helps him out a lot too. Pills would be better than fireballs, but the fast versions are very similar and just the best so...

I'm curious on your thoughts on Wario's and ROB's customs. Really enjoy these write ups, by the way.

I'm popular today I guess?

Wario is a character whose customs I honestly feel are pretty awful. Default Bite is a decent command grab, and while the extra range on Inhaling Bit is really nice, the ridiculous commitment and the total lack of damage on hit make it overall pretty bad. Garlic Breath is just way too slow to be useful; I don't get that move at all. I think Bike 1 vs Bike 2 is mostly preference; Bike 1 pops him a bit higher for recovery while Bike 2 just moves so much faster and also breaks easier so Wario is less likely to be stuck without his bike. Bike 3 is really slow, takes forever to break (bike breaking is good on Wario, means a new bike) and IMO not good at all. As long as Wario keeps bike up, his defualt up special really goes far enough so his extra distance one doesn't seem worth giving up what is honestly a pretty decent attack in this game, and while the sideways up B is actually amazing offensively, it's so suicidal to bring it because of what it does to Wario's recovery that I don't think it's a good option. Both Waft options make the move not a threat and thus are awful, but Rose-Scented Waft has to get some kind of prize for having the greatest name of any custom move.

R.O.B. I'm not super sure about honestly, spent less time on him than many others. I like angling his lasers more since I mostly like neutral on him as a quick disruption from an arbitrary position though I think it versus default is preference, and I'm pretty sure always ready lasers are awful since they don't go as far which is a really big deal. Default side is surprisingly a really good footsies tool (was so useless in Brawl...), and neither of the customs seem to consistently do anything worthwhile offensively so I'm not really sure what they're for. His defualt up special just seems like obviously the best recovery on him by far. On Gyro I really like the extra damage of the fire gyro, but default is still a good move whose range is sometimes handy so it's not a big deal to take one or the other and even the slip one isn't that bad either.

 

[Luco]

Sure!

Ness I feel is mostly about normals and doesn't actually care about special move choices as much as other characters other than Pk Thunder. Ness's default Pk Thunder is a ridiculously amazing move, a good projectile, a trap move, a potent kill option, and even a mobility option while also being a way better recovery than anyone is ever willing to admit (it's not smash 64 or melee anymore, Ness's recovery works a lot better now!). IMO it's never worth it to take any PKT other than default (the power one especially is super disappointing; we knew from Brawl how much worse the Lucas one is than the Ness one), and that's the main important choice. On neutral, 1 vs 2 is a pretty tight choice. I feel like 1 to trap certain recoveries, especially with Ness's severe dair nerf, is overall more helpful than the anti-air that 2 provides though this will probably come down to playstyle a lot. Pk Freeze is useless and shouldn't be considered. On side, I find that default is a wonderful little trap; even though Pk Fire is a lot less inspiring in this game than in past ones, the weakening of SDI makes it actually easier to get follow-ups out of it and he can get some really nasty ones. Lucas's PKF is a crummy projectile that is overall a bit easier to hit with but also doesn't do a terrible lot for Ness when it does connect; it may be worth it against an SDI monster but I'd prefer to take my chances with a real reward if I have to have a slow projectile. Pk Bonfire is hilarious, but given how easy it is to escape, I'm not sure if it's actually useful except maybe against Villager just to turn his tree fortress into a forest fire. Most foes don't have energy projectiles so thus I feel as though it's a better baseline to have an attack that does something on down, but against the right characters (especially someone like Wii Fit Trainer or Lucario!), the default or "forward" (very similar) PSI Magnets would be useful.

Hmm, I have to disagree slightly; Lucas' PKT in Brawl was actually a viable edge-guarding tool (I don't know why commentators always used to get so excited because some top player would put the PKT into himself to escape if the opponent did manage to dodge it... which was hard... but anyway) and because people couldn't jump into it and Pikmin didn't disrupt it other than purple (maybe), Lucas' PKT was always considered the better out of the two because Lucas' PKT was hard to disrupt and his PKT2 couldn't be stopped short by jumping into his way as well as the fact that it just went a longer dista. Ness' PKT has certainly been buffed, but i'd use Lucas' PKT if it wasn't for the fact I feel like it doesn't go as far or something else weird is happening there... I dunno, it might just be that I feel dirty using cheap rip-offs of Lucas' specials. ;P

(If I had to elaborate, I feel like its even slower than Lucas' projectile and doesn't launch Ness as far or with similar mobility. The whole thing with Ness is when he PKT's somewhere, he just.... stops at the end, whereas Lucas slides or goes just that little bit extra. Doesn't feel that way using it as Ness in this game.)

Regardless, pretty much agree with the rest of it, though I feel Ness' SH mechanics are what stops the Lucas PK Fire from being useful. Ness jumps a little too high and it usually goes over the heads of most people, so it has to be timed in a way that gives it horrendous landing lag. Ness doesn't get the boost from it either so he can't use it in a retreating situation to be safe on shield either.

PK bonfire is funny though yeah :D . Using it against timber counter might actually be a valid strategy; because other than the possiblity of that tree making a major difference, I believe Ness wins this match-up hands down.

 

[Terotrous]

U-smash is okay, but definitely not reliable outside of punishing mistakes. F-smash doesn't hit super hard, and is slow. U-throw doesn't kill people pre 150% generally speaking.

USmash has a front hitbox now, so it's also viable OOS or after a spot dodge. It's also a solid platform poke and he seems to have a few combos into it at low percents.

N-air is terrible for landing safely except against people who don't try to powershield it.

Well most stuff is unsafe on powershield. It does autocancel, so you're fairly safe if timed correctly. If they start attempting to counter it preemptively you can always just empty jump throw or something.

ROB doesn't get as much fuel in this game, and he is not exactly heavily disjointed. His Up-B is a terrible recovery move and easily intercepted, which combined with ROB's terrible landing options makes his recovery extremely vulnerable.

He still gets a pretty ridiculous amount. I've seen Oracle go way offstage, and have enough gas for two uairs before returning to the stage. I've also very rarely seen Uair's hitbox lose.

 

[Berserker.]

These tier lists posts. I think I'm gonna laugh my ass off right now, You guys should put some thought into it before doing this.

I take back what I said about Tink's fire arrows being underwhelming. They're good imo

 

[Emblem Lord]

The more I analyze the Hero King and his descendent the more I have to accept that Marth completely outshines Lucina.

Safer on block
Alot more kill moves
More damage per hit when played optimally
Will get more out of trap scenarios due to pivot smashes on Wii U

Marth has bair, f-tilt, Dancing Blade side slash 4, and uair for killing. Lucina only has her spike, f-smash and u-smash. Marth's tipper f-tilt can start killing near FD's ledge around 115%! That's damn good for a tilt that's pretty safe on block aside from speedsters like Fox and Sonic. Bair being a killer is awesome as well since it's now Marth's best aerial and a great edgeguarding tool.

Once Wii U version drops Marth will truly shine in land trap situations where a pivot tipper f-smash could end your stock at 90% or less depending on who he is fighting. Get them in the air, dash at them to bait the air dodge, pivot and BOOM!! That's a stock. I imagine Marth will be able to force opponents to simply eat an aerial just so they can avoid 50/50 death scenarios. The nerf to airdodging really lets his trap potential shine. 3DS holds him back so much. The changes to ledge mechanics on stage hurt him though. His ledge footsies arent as scary which really sucks.

But yeah...why does Lucina exists? Even on default Marth is solid mid at worst. At best bottom of high tier. Lucina is low mid at best. Low tier IMHO.

 

[Berserker.]

But yeah...why does Lucina exists? Even on default Marth is solid mid at worst. At best bottom of high tier. Lucina is low mid at best. Low tier IMHO.

Idk. She's a girl? If you don't like Marth's voice?

It's a real shame how Marth turned out to be the better Lucina or vice versa and ****

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well most stuff is unsafe on powershield. It does autocancel, so you're fairly safe if timed correctly. If they start attempting to counter it preemptively you can always just empty jump throw or something.

ROB's N-air has what, a 20 frame startup? When you're talking an aerial that's that slow, on a character who is floaty and huge, that's not a good option for landing. Against good players, once ROB is offstage, he is extremely unlikely to get back on his feet without taking very significant damage.

He still gets a pretty ridiculous amount. I've seen Oracle go way offstage, and have enough gas for two uairs before returning to the stage. I've also very rarely seen Uair's hitbox lose.

U-air only covers ROB directly above him, has significant commitment, and ROB is a very large target. It is neither extremely difficult or risky for most characters to outspace ROB's U-air during edgeguard situations.

Combined with ROB's terrible landing options and ledge options, he's a character whose risk doesn't really justify his reward, and I believe he is not valuable competitively.

 

[Shaya]

She exists for doubles (I could see the 'consistency' having true meaning here). And is perfect as a crutch/weighted training tool, "oh so everything is basically the same, except I have to be more careful of shields".

She will out punish Marth in certain forward smash scenarios, stutter step fsmashing is very potent in this game and also out of a pivot. But obviously those same tools can be used to allow Marth to get the tipper.

But yeah, she's noticeably worse. And after a hella lot of play time with her, it really comes down to kill potency. Lucina starts to look for the kill at around 110-120% with SMASH ATTACKS, while Marth does the same except at 70-80%. At the same time as Lucina smash attacks are killing, so are our forward tilt, up air and back air.

Another thing that becomes extremely noticeable over time if you've played both to the extent I have is just how critical the down tilt differences are. The animation of it guarantees tipper on anyone approaching it horizontally (same as forward tilt, which is another unfortunate thing for Lucina), you just have to have relatively precise timing. The safety of that move changes drastically by just a few frames (it's a 23 frame move; 14-16 frame cool down), I find anyone able to get within tipper range with down tilt cannot grab me without trading with jab, while with Lucina I get grabbed, and in the case of tipper, it's safer on shield and pushes them further away as well, where a character like Bowser can shield drop jab my dash grab or dancing blade, I'm usually maintaining control with the same actions as Marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

She exists for doubles (I could see the 'consistency' having true meaning here). And is perfect as a crutch/weighted training tool, "oh so everything is basically the same, except I have to be more careful of shields".

She will out punish Marth in certain forward smash scenarios, stutter step fsmashing is very potent in this game and also out of a pivot. But obviously those same tools can be used to allow Marth to get the tipper.

But yeah, she's noticeably worse.

Hitlag modifiers are such dishonest nonsense. And so is being pixels taller.

Makes me almost as mad as Marth's generally janky hurtbox does due to the way he leans in on several of his attacks.

 

[Jahordon]

Instead of people posting all these premature tier lists, we should be discussing matchups. Right now, does it look like Rosalina and Shiek have any bad matchups, or even any 50/50 matchups? How many other characters can we say that about? Greninja feels like he can have some bad matchups, and so does Diddy. Yoshi seems solid, but I don't know enough about his matchups yet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They just didn't program her modifiers correctly if at all. Had they given her significant reduction on her shield hitlag like Marths sourspot she would have been fine.

Still a worse Marth but I would not have called a Lucina player utterly foolish for maining her solo in tourney, as I would now.

 

[Shaya]

Also, back on the point of G&W, as I read "low tier" from AA..
His ground game seems pretty buffed. And having spacing mechanics required to get kills doesn't really phase me (re: down smash, the hammer hits seem very strong, while the sourspot is dash attack fodder).
Dash Attack, Jab, Forward Tilt. Are very good moves. Especially jab, glorious jab. It would have to be 3 frame start up at worst I'd think (probably 2?), is safe on shield, is a large disjoint, clashes with every projectile, and clanks with most moves otherwise. Also hit's behind him. I don't know why, but I'll take it. Also kills fresh pretty early (revenge kill ****ers at 130% no problem), with the final hitbox being like twice the range and angling upwards, I have not seen a single soul shuffle away from it.
Seriously, his jab may be better than Falcos
Pivot Fsmash at any point of his dash is a little obscene considering the disjoint and upwards angle of it.

Chef is buffed. All three have usages and niches, although I think you'll tend to go with fast chef if you want the "typical" of regular chef (no real RNG on the customs although sometimes the angles of default are.. godlike). It [fast chef] forces approaches and has little lag. SuperSized Chef is cute and I could see it actually also being useful, the moment it leaves the pan you're free to move, it moves slowly, does high damage, can be used to extend his juggle game greatly and frame trap people's landings, it's kinda obnoxious in an advantageous position and is almost like a horizontal counter, because the entire bacon that comes out at start up is considered the frying pan hitbox, which is electric instead of fire, I've combo'd straight into forward air and dash attacks people running into the frypan-plus. While Fast chef is obnoxious at a mid to long range neutral.

Regular Up B is pretty great. The shorter, completely invincible start up (I'm pretty sure, regular doesn't have it before launch any more), high damage, high knock back version is revolting. PLEASE aerial his shield. Ever. But it really does make him a lot weaker getting back to the stage.

His true weakness is indeed his light weight. But I don't think I feel him being low tier. Structurally, I'm confident about the advantages or "gimmicks" he can abuse on quite a few of the good characters in this game, but he could still fall short in the long run.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also, back on the point of G&W, as I read "low tier" from AA..
His ground game seems pretty buffed. And having spacing mechanics required to get kills doesn't really phase me (re: down smash, the hammer hits seem very strong, while the sourspot is dash attack fodder).
Dash Attack, Jab, Forward Tilt. Are very good moves. Especially jab, glorious jab. It would have to be 3 frame start up at worst I'd think (probably 2?), is safe on shield, is a large disjoint, clashes with every projectile, and clanks with most moves otherwise. Also hit's behind him. I don't know why, but I'll take it. Also kills fresh pretty early (revenge kill ****ers at 130% no problem), with the final hitbox being like twice the range and angling upwards, I have not seen a single soul shuffle away from it.
Pivot Fsmash at any point of his dash is a little obscene considering the disjoint and upwards angle of it.

Chef is buffed. All three have usages and niches, although I think you'll tend to go with fast chef if you want the "typical" of regular chef. It forces approaches and has little lag. SuperSized Chef is cute and I could see it actually also being useful, the moment it leaves the pan you're free to move, it moves slowly, does high damage, can be used to extend his juggle game greatly and frame trap people's landings, it's kinda obnoxious in an advantageous position and is almost like a horizontal counter, because the entire bacon that comes out at start up is considered the frying pan hitbox, which is electric instead of fire. While Fast chef is obnoxious at a mid to long range neutral.

Regular Up B is pretty great. The shorter, completely invincible start up (I'm pretty sure, regular doesn't have it any more), high damage, high knock back is revolting. PLEASE aerial his shield. Ever.

His true weakness is indeed his light weight. But I don't think I feel him being low tier.

Yeah Heavy Trampoline probably alone makes G&W a serious contender, now that I think about it.

I don't think he's low tier on default settings either. But I do think his default movepool is a bit short on reward. Again, not having really good KO setups while being super light is problematic. I do think though his spacing options are fundamentally fine. His aerials still do decent damage and have good hitboxes. While they don't linger as long, they have less total duration, which gives G&W more FLEXIBLE spacing, in the sense that you can more readily move from one aerial to another while spacing, making his aerial midrange probably better overall.

And unless I'm mistaken, I believe G&W's F-air may in fact autocancel in a short hop. I swear I saw it not long ago. In addition to the reduced landing lag, it's pretty legit, and imo overall is relatively fair (I swear this wasn't intentional) compensation for most of the other nerfs.

 

[Shaya]

Seriously, his jab may be better than Falco's (AND FALCOS IS BETTER THAN MACS, AND MACS IS BETTER THAN FALCONS, WHICH IS BETTER THAN YOSHIS, WHICH IS BETTER THAN IKES, WHICH IS BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE [probably]) shoutouts to dedede jab though. I'm willing to allow a jab tier list
I get jab->grab a lot, but I haven't felt too confident doing anything else out of it on hit. May feasibly lead into kills at the right percent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Seriously, his jab may be better than Falco's (AND FALCOS IS BETTER THAN MACS, AND MACS IS BETTER THAN FALCONS, WHICH IS BETTER THAN YOSHIS, WHICH IS BETTER THAN IKES, WHICH IS BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE [probably]) shoutouts to dedede jab though. I'm willing to allow a jab tier list
I get jab->grab a lot, but I haven't felt too confident doing anything else out of it on hit. May feasibly lead into kills at the right percent.

Now you're just acting silly. G&W's Jab most likely is frame 4, and best case scenario, you can probably link into D-tilt. His Rapid Jabs though are pretty good and relatively safe, even on block iirc.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Instead of people posting all these premature tier lists, we should be discussing matchups. Right now, does it look like Rosalina and Shiek have any bad matchups, or even any 50/50 matchups? How many other characters can we say that about? Greninja feels like he can have some bad matchups, and so does Diddy. Yoshi seems solid, but I don't know enough about his matchups yet.

Rosalina struggles a bit against ZSS since Paralyzer stops Luma cold basically always. (Although ZSS is also a top tier contender so...yeah.) Sheik, Jigglypuff, and Peach may also be troublesome matchups, wouldn't surprise me. Wario maybe but Luma Shot beats the bike every time, IDK how much Wario relies on it.

 

[Big O]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but G&W SH Fair does not autocancel and his jab1 (which seems to have set knockback) can't lead into anything if they SDI/Vector/DI or w/e up and jump out.

If they don't jump out, the most you can do is continue to jab combo. Jab -> grab is a just a mixup. His Up B is kinda nuts though with all that invincibility lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but G&W SH Fair does not autocancel and his jab1 (which has seems to have set knockback) can't lead into anything if they SDI/Vector/DI or w/e up and jump out.

If they don't jump out, the most you can do is continue to jab combo. Jab -> grab is a just a mixup. His Up B is kinda nuts though with all that invincibility lol.

Eh, I kinda was prepared to be told something there was sketchy/incorrect. So I appreciate the accurate information.

Now in other news, I was looking up Ike footage. But...this also happens to be the most competent Olimar footage I've observed so far. Interpret it as you will. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pqq7GHHLhg

 

[Shaya]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but G&W SH Fair does not autocancel and his jab1 (which has seems to have set knockback) can't lead into anything if they SDI/Vector/DI or w/e up and jump out.

If they don't jump out, the most you can do is continue to jab combo. Jab -> grab is a just a mixup. His Up B is kinda nuts though with all that invincibility lol.

Does the knockback not scale with rage? And eh, jump or die is a pretty good scenario, especially with an up-b that kills.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Idk. She's a girl? If you don't like Marth's voice?

It's a real shame how Marth turned out to be the better Lucina or vice versa and ****

This is what I've always hated about clones that are too similar to the original counterpart... One will almost always outshine the other which makes the lesser character essentially useless.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Been saying Hammer Bash is the Kirby custom of choice I feel it's now confirmed.
Newish tech for it allows him greater Vertical recovery via using the initial momentum of Jump to boost with it.
He can reach the top of visible FD in 3 jumps. Completely off-screen in 4. Normally with all 6 Jumps he doesn't reach that height.

Im not saying Kirby is probably one of the best characters off-stage.
But he'll probably end up one of the best characters off-stage.
Jumping Inhale is horizontal, Hammer Bash is Vertical, hits hard kills off-the top, Upper Cutter is just more recovery on top of that, and an kill in some high-up situations, truckload of jumps inherently. This is also probably his least punishable set-up to boot.

If Kirbys ground/air meta comes out stronger in the coming months he'd be a force. If this kid just had faster air maneuverability he'd put in so much work.

 

[Big O]

Well what I did was jab at 0 and 999 in training mode. Unless rage doesn't work in training mode, I don't think it makes any difference.

 

[mimgrim]

Seriously, his jab may be better than Falco's (AND FALCOS IS BETTER THAN MACS, AND MACS IS BETTER THAN FALCONS, WHICH IS BETTER THAN YOSHIS, WHICH IS BETTER THAN IKES, WHICH IS BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE [probably]) shoutouts to dedede jab though. I'm willing to allow a jab tier list
I get jab->grab a lot, but I haven't felt too confident doing anything else out of it on hit. May feasibly lead into kills at the right percent.

I really want this to be expanded upon now. Falco still has a godly Jab, I'll agree, but how is it better then Mac's or Yoshi's? Mac's first Jab is frame 1, frame effing 1. And Yoshi is like the only character who can Jab Cancel now.

I really have a hard time believing on of these 2 characters don't have the best Jab in the game.

Also think Palutena has a really good Jab as well.

 

[san.]

Rage defines most jab setups, so it's definitely most useful to test outside of training mode.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I really want this to be expanded upon now. Falco still has a godly Jab, I'll agree, but how is it better then Mac's or Yoshi's? Mac's first Jab is frame 1, frame effing 1. And Yoshi is like the only character who can Jab Cancel now.

I really have a hard time believing on of these 2 characters don't have the best Jab in the game.

Yoshi is not the only character with a legitimate Jab cancel. He just happens to have one of the most obnoxious Jabs in terms of hitbox/speed/safety.

Other characters who I know have good Jab cancels include Rosalina, Link, and Fox. The former two I'm almost certain can connect Smashes out of Jab cancel, while Fox has a repeated Jab 1+2 juggle.

 

[mimgrim]

Ah, didn't know other character were able to Jab Cancel as well. I've only had success with Yoshi Jab Cancel so far.

 

[Shaya]

I really want this to be expanded upon now. Falco still has a godly Jab, I'll agree, but how is it better then Mac's or Yoshi's? Mac's first Jab is frame 1, frame effing 1. And Yoshi is like the only character who can Jab Cancel now.

I really have a hard time believing on of these 2 characters don't have the best Jab in the game.

Also think Palutena has a really good Jab as well.

Frame 1 jab sure, but it isn't maximum range, it loses to the well spaced 2 frame jabs, doesn't sway his hurtbox in any way, doesn't have disjoints. Probably the best in a lot of ways though, I think only dedede has similar damage output from their jab.
Anyway, I'm not gospel on jabs, that's for sure (I definitely really think has a very good jab in the upper echelons of the cast still). But eh, a lot of jabs are good in this.

Except , he "doesn't have regular attacks", he has bad ones.

 

[deepseadiva]

We should totally do a jab tier list.

I'm not joking. That would help in visualizing a very often-seen scenario. Jab battles are very important.

But yeah, she's noticeably worse. And after a hella lot of play time with her, it really comes down to kill potency. Lucina starts to look for the kill at around 110-120% with SMASH ATTACKS, while Marth does the same except at 70-80%. At the same time as Lucina smash attacks are killing, so are our forward tilt, up air and back air.

This was such a good and conclusive point oh my god I am still reeling from this truth.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

D3's jab shenanigans are pretty cool. I gotta say that for some of the jab canceling stuff, though, you done goofed if you fall for anything out of it except maybe dtilt and grab.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChronoPenguin]

We should totally do a jab tier list.

I'm not joking. That would help in visualizing a very often-seen scenario. Jab battles are very important.



This was such a good and conclusive point oh my god I am still reeling from this truth.

Trash Tier: Shulk.
Kirby has a fast Jab if im not mistaken and it cancels.

 

[Berserker.]

Trash Tier: Shulk

wat

 

[deepseadiva]

wat

It is ass and you know it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

wat

His Jab.
Its not.
Good.

 

[Berserker.]

It doesn't do **** against any floaties

Now you mention it, I actually don't use it that much >_>



Oh right. My bad

 

[Shaya]

A bit more quality to your posts please, thanks.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Shulk's jab definitely doesn't keep people as honest as I would like. At least D3's jabs seems to have priority. I seem to beat out a lot of stuff clean whenever I throw 'em out there.

With Shulk's jabs, on the other hand, I'm left wondering why in the hell am I not spamming his other halfway decent normals.

Smooth Criminal