Character Competitive Impressions

[Berserker.]

Riiiight so... This is actually the first time I actually used Marth. I never gave him a shot in Melee or Brawl. Back in Melee, I was still kinda casual. Brawl, I only fought against him with Snake. The only reason why I didn't feel like using him is because he's er... his vibes and idles... he's weird as a character. In Smash 4, I preferred using Lucina for personal reasons so using him for the first time wasn't as hard as I thought. The only thing I had to remember was the tipper mechanic. I only had 3 games using him so here we go

Holy Christ. The tipper. It's as insane as Shulk in hyper Smash. You can KO below 80%. That's ****ing insane. Tipping with Marth on the 3DS version is hard for me. Like, I just 1 tipper KO in one match. That's how bad I did. I still think I did relatively well with him (Won all 3 matches). Even without tipping his blade, Marth is still great but I'm fully aware that tipping his blade is a must to maximize his potential. Despite the range nerf, his range is still great anyway

Shield breaker does a lot of shield damage even if you don't charge it up. I noticed it did even more than Lucina's shield breaker but maybe tipping it helped. I had trouble doing his side B for some reason. Like, I couldn't even do the 3rd slash. It just stops at the 2nd hit. I actually went into the same problem with Lucina. I'm familiar with his recovery because Shulk's air slash (sans the second slash) is pretty similar. Marth's counter is pretty straight forward. I still use it from time to time.

About his grounded normals, his neutral jab is amazing. I envy his jab. This is pretty much what I wanted for Shulk but anyway... The range of this is great so it's nice for spacing (Shaya mentioned this already). F-tilt is gorgeous. I use it even more than his f-smash for sending players off stage. It's so easy to tip and it's pretty fast. It's my second favorite move behind Marth's f-air. His d-tilt, I only use it for shield poking but that's about it. His u-tilt is a great juggler/anti-air. I'm familiar yet again with his f-tilt and u-tilt because it sort of looks like Shulk's and even functions like it except it's faster and the tip deals more damage. His smash attacks in general.... Eh. The only smash attack that I actually like is his f-smash. I'm not sure about his d-smash or u-smash. When am I suppose to use d-smash and u-smash? I feel like u-smash's hitbox looks too thin but I'm eyeballing this. His f-smash KILLS. It's got range, it's pretty fast and tipping it KILLS.

Onto his aerials.... Despite the landing lag, I still think F-air is one of Marth's most important moves. As long as you FH it (and tip it) or maybe cancel the landing lag with n-air because based from what I noticed, N-air's landing lag isn't that much Not sure where b-air comes in. I know u-air is great for juggling. I know tipping d-air meteor smashes (Same went for Lucina). I've pulled it off once and daaaamn, that hit sound effect. The only aerial that I ignored was his b-air. I don't think it's useless nor even bad to begin with but f-air just seems better to use in general. Then again, I'm new to this character. Sort of because I used Lucina


So yeah. First impressions of using Marth in general. My indecisiveness is making me switch from Palutena to Marth now. That way, I can always practice my spacing despite which character I'm using because they both use swords and have long range. Honestly if you forced me to pick a tier for him, it's high up in high tier or bottom in top.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Based off personal experience, once the meta develops a bit and match ups are a bit more solidified, if Yoshi doesnt beat Rosalina, ill eat my own shoe. Feel like our mobility can easily handle Luma and our footsies are just straight up better, even when she has Luma. Aside from Rosy though, I dont think Yoshi beats any other top tiers and loses to a handful as well.

 

[Luco]

Some quick stuff to mention, Marth's Bair is used primarily for the kill over the Fair as it's slightly more powerful. The Usmash should have hitboxes on the ground around Marth which pulls the person into the smash itself (A bit like someone else we all used to know :D ) and the dolphin slash should be performed with reasonably regular button inputs rather than trying to time it through what marth is actually doing on screen. ^_^

 

[Shaya]

His range wasn't nerfed!
It was nice to see shield breaker range buffed. And with forward smash, the extra range behind marth and the more "crashing wall" type hitbox in front I find is significantly easier to tip with than Brawl, at least.

Tipper shield breaker does more shield damage, yes.

Basically I don't feel Marth's range has been nerfed when that forward air hitbox still beats everything, and stuff like jab feels like it reaches up to barely short of his tilt ranges now. Down tilt not pushing Marth forward is, depending on how you look at it, a "range" buff (it pushing you forward and keeping you there meant grabs were easier on it / etc).

 

[Berserker.]

His range wasn't nerfed!
It was nice to see how much shield breaker range was buffed, and the extra range behind marth and the more "crashing wall" type hitbox in front I find is significantly easier to tip with than Brawl, at least.

Tipper shield breaker does more shield damage, yes.

Thanks for answering

I also noticed that his neutral attack looks almost similar to u-tilt except u-tilt has better range. Not complaining, just more reasons to like his neutral A anyway. Even the sword blur on his f-tilt slightly goes above his head. Whoa.

Oh and thanks Luco. I finally connected all the hits of his side B.

Definitely second maining this guy. I shouldn't have dismissed him too early

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Why should Kirby be fine with shulk. If you miss inhale you die. Shulk has 2x if not 2.5x more range. Even if you land inhale you are too light for 3/5 arts. Speed nerfs your damage. Kirby can rack up percent if he is allowed in but he'll be spaced out half the time and still has to respect Vision puttinf extra emphasis on his to grab which has little follow up. Sure he is a threat off-stage but shulk, marth, pit are going to be pain in general.

Yeah good greninjas and Yoshi feel pretty nightmarish for us. Kirby still has his flaws from melee/brawl. Fast characters, and characters who out range us are trouble some. For me personally. A lot of the fights feel up hill. I'm not the best Kirby though and I tend to be really aggro.

Who doesn't outrange kirby on a general level, WFT?

Its quite odd too see contrast between Brawl where Kirby mains felt they had the advantage on Yoshi and now. I don't think the matchup is on some nightmarish level. Kirbs stronger off-edge. The range differences in their ground game aren't that substantial outside of yoshis dtilt. Yoshi still outranges otherwise but its on a level where kirb can legit get into his space. Now in the air, yoshis back air and uair blatently outrange. His Fair isn't longer than Kirbs which probably ties with Yoshis Nair. He can have access to yoshis command grab and for egg toss you ban FD. Yoshi has better presence on FD then he will on battlefield.
There should be more pressing matchups for Kirby then Yoshi.

 

[ChikoLad]

Not seeing why people are so bummed about Shulk's jab. I think it's pretty good and people just don't realize how to use it properly. It's not a B&B jab like Ike's but more situational. But dude, Monado Buster Nair to Jab combo dishes out like 30% guaranteed to opponents at 50% or higher and you can't escape it as easily as some of the multi-hit jabs. It's not godlike but definitely not nearly as bad as some of you people make it sound.



I don't think Rosalina has a losing matchup. If anybody has the potential to straight-up beat her I'd say it's either Sonic or Yoshi though. Incidentally I'm curious to hear whom they could lose to because both look like their worst matchups could be even. I would not be surprised to see these three character having no disadvantaged matchup at all. Same goes for Greninja. Diddy though seems like he might lose a few. Rosalina has favorable tourney results against Diddy and some character could be able to gimp Diddy - Villager seems really annoying for Diddy too.

Sheik I would say looks like she might lose to Lucario. TKD thinks that Fox might beat her but I think it's even.

As far as Rosalina goes, the only characters I could see POTENTIALLY being a losing one for her are ZSS and Lucario (surprise!), but only by a VERY slight margin.

Everyone else is slightly to majorly in her favour (or then you have characters like Bowser Jr and Mega Man where fighting Rosalina is completely and utterly an uphill battle for them). With maybe one or two evens (I can see Link being even later on).

Though to be honest, I personally believe that while Rosalina will be top tier in the end (maybe even broken, depending on how ATs develop), she will be reduced to high tier at some point between now and a more complete meta game. Though that's purely speculation.

 

[Gamingboy]

I am disappointed for the sheer lack of PacMan impressions. The yellow mouthball is really good folks.

I've been playing a bit of Pac-Man as an alt. Fun character to play as, can have a really get-at-him brawler style and the B-side special can surprise people at times due to how it can go upward or downward.

 

[ChikoLad]

I think Pac-Man is really solid and is being underestimated a lot, but I base this more off of my experience facing him than my experience using him, as I'm honestly not great with him (I'm way too predictable with him). Ironically, although I've won most of my matches against him, that's because I was using Rosalina. One of my best friends mains Pac-Man, so a lot of our matches are Rosalina VS Pac-Man. And since the match up is quite a bit in my favour, I end up winning almost every time.

However, if I switch to anyone else, his Pac-Man tends to beat me all of the time. Only exception I remember being when I decided to try using Sheik.

 

[Jahordon]

Not seeing why people are so bummed about Shulk's jab. I think it's pretty good and people just don't realize how to use it properly. It's not a B&B jab like Ike's but more situational. But dude, Monado Buster Nair to Jab combo dishes out like 30% guaranteed to opponents at 50% or higher and you can't escape it as easily as some of the multi-hit jabs. It's not godlike but definitely not nearly as bad as some of you people make it sound.



I don't think Rosalina has a losing matchup. If anybody has the potential to straight-up beat her I'd say it's either Sonic or Yoshi though. Incidentally I'm curious to hear whom they could lose to because both look like their worst matchups could be even. I would not be surprised to see these three character having no disadvantaged matchup at all. Same goes for Greninja. Diddy though seems like he might lose a few. Rosalina has favorable tourney results against Diddy and some character could be able to gimp Diddy - Villager seems really annoying for Diddy too.

Sheik I would say looks like she might lose to Lucario. TKD thinks that Fox might beat her but I think it's even.

I had been playing Diddy exclusively, and the good opponents I played really shut me down by simply spot dodging monkey flips and bananas, or attacking bananas and peanuts to destroy them. Without the banana game, Diddy is good, but disadvantaged.

I've recently been playing Yoshi, and he just feels so flexible. Eggs are a great and mobile projectile, he lives forever, deals a ton of damage, and kills early. He can set up some crazy links with his moves, too. Yoshi feels like a character that won't get shut down by anybody and can compete with Rosalina, and those two things should make him a top character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I love how everybody keeps saying that Pac-Man is underrated as if anybody had denied that he's a solid character in the first place.

 

[Shaya]

I love how everybody keeps saying that Pac-Man is underrated as if anybody had denied that he's a solid character in the first place.

People have indeed questioned his abilities. Many recent comments prior to today indicated LOW TIER INKLINGS.

 

[Jahordon]

Based off personal experience, once the meta develops a bit and match ups are a bit more solidified, if Yoshi doesnt beat Rosalina, ill eat my own shoe. Feel like our mobility can easily handle Luma and our footsies are just straight up better, even when she has Luma. Aside from Rosy though, I dont think Yoshi beats any other top tiers and loses to a handful as well.

What problems does he have with the other top tier characters?

 

[hariooo]

People actually think Falcon is somewhat high tier now? Lol just because you were able to 2xUair into utilt spike someone who can't DI doesn't mean he has a combo game. In fact aside from aerial stomp into bounced knee (which isn't even guaranteed), I'm not sure what else can even come close to comboing into knee that can't be airdodged out of.

He's like slightly better than Brawl but as soon as his character design became obsolete after Melee, he has no place in the game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

People actually think Falcon is somewhat high tier now? Lol just because you were able to 2xUair into utilt spike someone who can't DI doesn't mean he has a combo game. In fact aside from aerial stomp into bounced knee (which isn't even guaranteed), I'm not sure what else can even come close to comboing into knee that can't be airdodged out of.

He's like slightly better than Brawl but as soon as his character design became obsolete after Melee, he has no place in the game.

He's a mobile heavier character with a pretty decent combo game. He's not as fast or has as many options as Sonic but he can kill a hell of a better.

He's pretty good this time around.

 

[Kofu]

One thing worth noting when considering Zelda and her buffed Farore's Wind is that she seems to become vulnerable where she reappears a split second before she actually does. I managed to DAir spike a Zelda trying to sweetspot the ledge with G&W once without even leaving the stage (the DAir was a mistake but the result was amusing and informative). I think the same thing is true when she uses it on the stage.

It's still good as a punisher but needs to be used carefully against an opponent who's in neutral, or close to it.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Strangely I can beat the frontrunners for "high-tier" with Palutena but I can't beat any characters that are marked to be worse. I can only beat the "bad" characters with Pikachu! It makes no sense to me at all. Maybe its the matchup? I'm not sure.

 

[zephyrnereus]

any ROB opinions on his custom moves?

his laser variations seem more like personal preference, though I feel the default is the superior beam. I guess the wide angle beam might be good against floatier character, due to the fact that it can work as an anti-air move.

the robo copters, I personally prefer his second variation, due to it being a MUCH better reflector. it also doubles as a GTFO move, similar to his D-smash but lasting much longer so it punishes rolls a bit better. this move also seems to nullify all tether ledge grabs! ROB can simply grab the edge and when the enemy tries to tether grab, he simply sideB's away from the stage and they get a face full of robofist. the trajectory and hitstun it gives make it seem like a pseudospike. the third variation seems pretty useless... it wants to be a mario cape, but with the smallest reflector window, and because its also a hit, any flipped opponent is pulled out of a freefall state and gives them a chance to try recovering again.

the boosters...I'm not sure how to feel... they all have their good, but with a huge flaw that just makes them meh. default has the most fuel but is very slow and leaves you open, not to mention that letting go of the booster without cancelling it to an aerial causes him to lose so much momentum that trying to go up swallows the tank. the robo rocket seems pretty unique. it has probably one of the most unique and unexpected meteor smashes in the game. its fast, and deceptively big. its main flaw, ROB only gets one shot. any projectile can stop the ascend and he is as good as dead. he won't get the recovery back like other standard recovery moves and I feel this is what makes this move pretty bad. the third booster option IMO is the safest. it doesn't suffer the momentum drain when letting go of the booster, but its fuel tank is really small...

now for the gyros. they're all decent (honestly, the only thing that stops them from being a great projectile is the fact that they all disappear upon contact with a shield. whyyy?) the standard is fine, the fire has great damage but the fact that its distance is nerfed makes it kinda bad in my eyes. personally I prefer the slip gyro, due to the fact that in the air it is pretty much the same as the standard when it comes to distance, but throwing it on the grown makes it a low projectile that slides a good distance if charged, and it trips! IMO its better at tripping than bananas, as its a lot harder to pick up than a banana. still, sometimes it simply doesn't cause a trip. perhaps it has a high but not full chance? like an 80%? I'm not sure on this.

 

[Conda]

The Koopalings have a pretty good Jab as well. First hit has very generous IASA frames and the multihit portion connects very well and tacks on a good bit of damage, pretty easy to get 20%+ with it. I think it might also be counted as disjointed (I think most of the Koopalings' attacks would actually be counted as disjointed?)? Not sure on that.

Heck no, bJr jab is super easy to escape. I land the finisher on around 1/4 of the ones I toss out.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Oh yeah about Marth's side B. For some reason I can't do the full sequence it if I combo into it, it feels like it just doesn't work for some reason.

Maybe it's just me, but basically if I try to do falling Uair into Side B combo. Uair into side B combos just fine, but the following Side Bs get stuffed or something and it just doesn't come out sometimes for the full combo. It's really weird.


Also speaking of bad jabs, Shulk's may be inconsistent but at least it's still better than Samus'.

 

[mimgrim]

All these tier lists are making me want to punch my monitor.

Anyways. I want to talk a bit more about Bowser. I think that anyone who pouts him in the higher or lower sections of the cast, in terms of viability, are both wrong. He still has the weakness of being big and fat but now with increased mobility while still being able to tank pretty well and kill easily. Also, his 2nd Sspecial is absolutely amazing and very troll worthy. Other then his Sspecial customs though, I'm not too impressed by his custom line-up. I don't see any reason to use the other Fortress moves since the first on has good vertical recovery and decent horizontal recovery instead of having just one or the other. Not really impressed at all with any of the Bombs, but at least the first one is a shield breaker. As for his breath attacks. I think it is up to personal preference for them and that there isn't a super important one for him, personally have been using the 2nd one myself. Personally think he is in the mid range of the cast, probably in the upper portions of the middle, because he was turned into a very solid character but he is still fat and tall and even though he has improved mobility it still isn't that good.

Heck no, bJr jab is super easy to escape. I land the finisher on around 1/4 of the ones I toss out.

I've been having a different experience, but then again I tend to do full Jab combo only at lower percents. Otherwise I just use Jab 1 because of the very generous IASA frames.

 

[RWB]

I don't tend to mind stuff that gets the brain juices going. Jab seems to be a pretty relevant move on just about every character this game. It's somewhat like how "back air" was this almost universally common move for most characters in Brawl. We sure had many back air chats in the past .

From personal experience I think the following jabs are pretty alright, one way or another:

How is 's jab? It doesn't do much damage, and I dunno how good it is on guard, but I think the burying effect on grounded opponents is pretty nice- allows for some kills at higher percents.

 

[Jabejazz]

The fact WFT hits behind him/her as well is pretty WTF. I like it.
Also the burying effect can be avoided I believe.

I'll add that TripleD's jab is a godsend compared to what we had in Brawl, god damn am I glad we have this.
Nothing guaranteed out of "jab cancels", but we have a few silly options depending on how they react.

 

[Terotrous]

Some very good jabs (not in any order):

Little Mac
Yoshi
Bowser
ROB
Peach
Palutena
Wii Fit Trainer
Rosalina
Dedede


There's probably a lot of others. Jabs in general seem to have been buffed quite a bit compared to past games.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jabs have been a very good option in Brawl too.

 

[Deathcarter]

From personal experience I think the following jabs are pretty alright, one way or another:

: *laughs*

Seriously, Ike's jab not working on Greninja unless Ike has rage is soooooo lame. Does this happen with any other character aside from Ike?

 

[Rockaphin]

I can't tell if Villager has a good match up against Little Mac or not. Villager has such a good aerial game but Little Mac's rush down approach might be too much. I want to say this match up is in Villager's favor, but I'm not too sure. His edge game is ridiculous, especially with characters that have vertical recoveries. Also, the sling shot is hard for Mac to deal with.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Don't Villager's tilts straight up beat Mac's approach?

I dunno. The priority on these seem stupid good to me.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

I can't tell if Villager has a good match up against Little Mac or not. Villager has such a good aerial game but Little Mac's rush down approach might be too much. I want to say this match up is in Villager's favor, but I'm not too sure. His edge game is ridiculous, especially with characters that have vertical recoveries. Also, the sling shot is hard for Mac to deal with.

Villager V Little Mac is pretty bad for Villager IMO. Gyroids and Slingshots are great spacing tools on Mac since he is so ground locked, but once Mac gets in it can be really hard to get him out. His Haymaker is also a really great tool of dealing with all of those so he can get past your projectiles pretty easily. And since villagers grab is REALLY slow it's pretty hard to throw Little mac of the stage for a gimp.

 

[Radical Larry]

For any and all reasons, I feel that the only characters capable of countering Rosalina are Link, Pikachu, Little Mac and Sheik, maybe even Dark Pit and Pit. However, I feel as if she is one of the more dominant forces and can easily counter the rest, unless the opponent aims for the Luma first, sends her off and then meteors her to oblivion.

Anyways, anyone want to say anything about Captain Falcon?

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Falcon is GOOD again combos 4 days.

 

[Berserker.]

I just realized I can actually SH F-air with Marth, as long as I don't FF

Oh my. This character's amazing. I'm still maining Shulk but I felt like I've missed out for a long time

@ Radical Larry What do you think about Link's customs by the way?

 

[hariooo]

He's a mobile heavier character with a pretty decent combo game. He's not as fast or has as many options as Sonic but he can kill a hell of a better.

He's pretty good this time around.

But where are these combos that aren't just uair strings? His aerial kill moves can't be combo'd into and his ground kill moves, while strong, aren't particularly quick. Maybe it's because he was so much worse in Brawl that any upgrade seems huge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

But where are these combos that aren't just uair strings? His aerial kill moves can't be combo'd into and his ground kill moves, while strong, aren't particularly quick. Maybe it's because he was so much worse in Brawl that any upgrade seems huge.

Airdodge landing lag makes Falcon have legitimate TRAPS into his KO moves.

Smash 4 Falcon is less about confirming a death combo off a random hit, but rather putting your opponent in a bad position, forcing them into 50/50s that are not in their favor, and trying to maximize your virtually guaranteed reward from them. Falcon is a character who thrives on outplaying his opponent given he can't really be screwed over easily in neutral due to his mobility, and because his capitalization options are incredibly good.

 

[Conda]

I've read about the Pits being sleeper Marth-esque contenders this time around. Great grabs (fthrow kills at high %), disjoints, a reflect, multiple jumps, better recovery.

No counter or tippers, but still pretty impressive now. Dark Pit did well at a tourney locator tourney recently (1st iirc)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Similar archestype but with some changes. Pit/Dark Pit have projectile zoning capabilities and more anti-zoning options. Recovery is better. Neutral is strong. Jab, f-tilt, and d-tilt are great pokes. Aerials are somewhat linear and should never be fast fallen. Edgeguarding is stronger thanks to being able to harass opponents a bit more freely. Killing power is worse as is their overall defensive game and trap game. Pit/Dark Pit seem more balanced to tackle all situations, while Marth seems engineered for a specific gameplan and all his tools help him get his plan going.

If you want your precision and ability to put people in bad situations to be rewarded then play Marth. If you like having great buttons and solid overall options across the board play Pit/Dark Pit.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ugh, Pikachu's grounded UpB is just the most ridiculous piece of bad design.

 

[SonicZeroX]

But where are these combos that aren't just uair strings? His aerial kill moves can't be combo'd into and his ground kill moves, while strong, aren't particularly quick. Maybe it's because he was so much worse in Brawl that any upgrade seems huge.

Knee can be true comboed into from SHFF uair. Haven't tested VI/Rage etc, but the %s it works at is not strict so I doubt it will matter.

It's pretty hard to do on the 3DS but should be a much more viable option on the Wii U.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Even though TL's ground game isn't as good as Link's, he outshines Link by being better at camping and running away, and having superior throws. He's pretty good at most things that matter, and his KO moves aren't even weak. His only problem is he lacks consistent safe setups into them, though this is partially compensated for with his superior B-throw for KOs.

I always considered this to be one of Toon Link's greatest assets. Sure, it's hard to setup Fsmashes, but Bomb -> Uair and Bomb -> Fair honestly get the job done pretty damn well. Problem is that it may get a bit predictable always jumping above your opponent at KO % to throw that bomb down... but that's where returning Boomerang kicks in.

That said, your main point was safety. How safe/unsafe is throwing a bomb beneath you, exactly? Like you can even do Bomb -> Fair out of a full hop at about 130%.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Berserker. Well, of Link's customs of course, I say his new Neutral Special is quite the overpowered tool, though it washes away any camping capability and is used sort of as a gimping method instead. His other Neutral special, of course, eh...it's good, but not so good.

As for his side specials; I do love the Boomerang and its constant maintaining of its damage. While it does have low knockback it's better for camping and hitting others in the air. With his Ripping Boomerang, I like it's properties of being slow but piercing and doing multiple hits, but it only goes so far.

His up specials are also decent; I do like the new Spin Attack, which has powerful and electric properties, as well as high knockback, but it does have a short recovery; though in that case, he actually has a semi-spike with such the recovery. For Whirling Leap, it's not bad, but it could have at least done some damage.

For his down specials, Giant Bomb isn't much of a useful tool, not even for camping, but it's a good tool for waiting and striking. However, the best thing of all his specials, is the Meteor Bomb; thank goodness he has such a move that trumps his opponents.