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Character Competitive Impressions

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Luco

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It doesn't do **** against any floaties

Now you mention it, I actually don't use it that much >_>



Oh right
Hahahahaha you saw the post but not the quote didn't you? <3

Bowser Jr and DHD I can't see being awfully good in the jab tier list.

Why are we actually discussing this possibility??? XD

This actually seems to be a case where some of the top tiers could have trouble against some of the mids. Once that silly Rosalina glitch against DHD is fixed (i'm assuming it hasn't been already), I think DHD could be viable against her (not that I think DHD is mid, I think he's definitely high). I actually suspect the peach v Rosalina MU would also be interesting.
 
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Shaya

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I don't tend to mind stuff that gets the brain juices going. Jab seems to be a pretty relevant move on just about every character this game. It's somewhat like how "back air" was this almost universally common move for most characters in Brawl. We sure had many back air chats in the past :p.

From personal experience I think the following jabs are pretty alright, one way or another:
:4bowser::4falcon::4darkpit::4dedede::4diddy::4dk::4falco::4fox::4gaw::4myfriends::4littlemac::4link::4lucina::4marth::4palutena::4pit::4robinm::4sheik::4villager::4yoshi::4zss:

Anyone I didn't list are either bad (:4metaknight:) or I haven't seen much of offline (basically everyone else)

:4marth::4lucina::4link: have long range jabs that aren't "very fast" (Links is pretty much a true combo though), but are very amazing as a spacing tool, and can be a hit confirm frame trap scenario that leads to great things.
:4dedede: and :4littlemac: have obscene damage.
:4bowser:1-2 is devastating out of shield and he follows up with positional advantage exceptionally from it. :4dk:'s 1 is pretty scary, not sure how guaranteed his stuff for it is, the range is pretty good, second hit is decent as well. :4yoshi: obviously similar.
:4falcon::4darkpit::4pit: have gentlemen options, as well as the rapid jab, which are fantastic, great for on hit frame traps and potent footsies.
:4falco: 1-2 jab is obscene range and skewing of his hurtbox, pretty sure it's close to safe on shield. Multi jab is pretty good damage. Has jab cancels and probably gets guaranteed hits off with rage / enemy percent.
:4palutena: jab 1 leads to grab, 95% of the time on everyone, trust me, it's really really good, her grab range is OBSCENE and it's fast, long ranged and pops up right into her (can be avoided with shuffling right on first hit, it's kinda like snake's jab in brawl).
:4robinm: kills, pretty safe on the 1-2, wind or otherwise. Pretty staple part of their moveset and CQC.
All the others just seem to have their solid 1-2-3s or still pretty good ranged rapid jab options.
Already talked about Gdubs recently :p
 
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ChronoPenguin

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Shulks Jab:
It's straight up slow on 1, its slow on 2 and its slow on 3. If you jab with Shulk against Jigglypuff they will kill you. it's unattractively punishable, it doesn't punish anything well or do any kind of set-up, it lacks range to be any sort of deterrence. It's just some extra but in all likelihood given the proximity to land it unless you specifically hit just Jab3, you'll probably not want to be that close to the opponent anyways. Most of the time if you are jabbing it means you didn't space properly. Everything else in Shulks kit is disjointed and fairly long, to jab anything other than intentionally jab 3 is basically a spacing off, and if they're just walking into jab 3's despite the 2 telegraphed jabs beforehand...

Tl;dr when I started Shulk I jabbed now I feel like if I jab I made a mistake somewhere
 
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Spirst

 
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:4greninja: has a good jab as well with some decent priority. It's fast, relatively safe, and does a decent 11%. I think it can actually go through Falcon's jab but I'd have to test it again.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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Love how Mac's jab is "pretty alright," Shaya. Just pretty alright.

I feel grimy just love-tapping somebody's shield with it a couple of times, haha. Cause I know I'm going to ****ing hit them.

Smooth Criminal
 
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mimgrim

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Diddy's Jab isn't that good tbh. I believe his Dtilt is now faster, or just as fast, as his Jab 1 which means there is no reason to use Jab 1 over Dtilt now and his Multi Jab is horrible and does not connect properly and to do a gentleman type Jab combo the attack button has to be held. It's really awkward and not very rewarding and is outclassed by Dtilt pretty much.
 

Shaya

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Fair enough, I was just having reservations about diddy, as I was [still continuing to] editing in thoughts for why and then I it was roughly just "jab 1 seems alright, everything else, not so much, kinda meh". He doesn't need it though with his tilts, obviously.
 
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My bad :(

Adding to what ChronoPenguin said,

Yeah, his jab is crappy. It whiffs a lot even on the first hit against certain characters and some crouching characters. That's pretty much my gripe with it. I see why it would be considered trash tier.

Yeah. You can actually crouch under it
 

Z'zgashi

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Diddy's dtilt is hella good, I honestly wouldnt be surprised if it's safe on block (not counting power shields) at long/max range.
 
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Everything else in Shulks kit is disjointed and fairly long,
Just to further expound on this

The thing with Shulk's jab is that not only is bad in general but it's short ranged. Instead of a punch and a kick (Which he never did in Xenoblade), I would have preferred a 2-hit long ranged sword swipe because it mixes well with Shulk's long ranged moveset (Something like Marcina's jab would be great). The range gap between Shulk's sword normals and his jab are pretty big which is probably why I rarely use jab

The only actually use I have with this is that you can combo it after n-air (4 hit combo, but that only works at lower percentages obviously) but that's only against heavier characters
 

mimgrim

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The Koopalings have a pretty good Jab as well. First hit has very generous IASA frames and the multihit portion connects very well and tacks on a good bit of damage, pretty easy to get 20%+ with it. I think it might also be counted as disjointed (I think most of the Koopalings' attacks would actually be counted as disjointed?)? Not sure on that.
 
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Z'zgashi

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Shulk's dtilt is pretty fast though, spacing ftilts is a solid option, nair is amazing, and since he's got great range, he honestly doesnt need his jab for his neutral game. Also his utilt is a pretty solid anti air.

His tilts cover all his footsies needs so its not like he really needs a long range jab.
 
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Shulk's dtilt is pretty fast though, spacing ftilts is a solid option, nair is amazing, and since he's got great range, he honestly doesnt need his jab for his neutral game. Also his utilt is a pretty solid anti air.

His tilts cover all his footsies needs so its not like he really needs a long range jab.
idk. You're right but it feels weird having one move you don't even notice for a whole match

Kinda like Snake's NIKITA back when I used Snake
 

Z'zgashi

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I feel like jabs are generally just your go to for damage, especially at low percent, since Shulk doesnt have much in terms of long strings; mostly just 2-4 hits to put them offstage/in the air for stage advantage.

But I agree, jab doesnt have many uses outside of a combo finisher.
 

Z'zgashi

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On the topic of jabs, D3's is pretty good if it connects. You mostly rely on his tilts and short hops, but when you do use it as a mix up/punish, it naturally sets up frame traps with jab cancels, grabs, etc with the fact that one hit brings them in, another out, and if you mix it up on them, you can bounce them around between the two hits to try and bait out an air dodge/shield and punish.
 
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ChronoPenguin

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Just to further expound on this

The thing with Shulk's jab is that not only is bad in general but it's short ranged. Instead of a punch and a kick (Which he never did in Xenoblade), I would have preferred a 2-hit long ranged sword swipe because it mixes well with Shulk's long ranged moveset (Something like Marcina's jab would be great). The range gap between Shulk's sword normals and his jab are pretty big which is probably why I rarely use jab

The only actually use I have with this is that you can combo it after n-air (4 hit combo, but that only works at lower percentages obviously) but that's only against heavier characters
You can M-art cancel into a grab though which is the superior option when it presents itself pretty much all of the time and dtilt of peace.

Anyone I didn't list are either bad (:4metaknight:) or I haven't seen much of offline (basically everyone else)
Hmm I didn't think Kirbys jab was bad am I missing something or was this part of the haven't seen offline.
 
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Z'zgashi

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Only use Ive found for MK's jab is an anti air. Use it preemptively and use the last hit to stuff approaches. Pretty garbage otherwise, ftilt just straight up outclasses it in every way, especially since they removed the hitbox behind him to catch rolls.
 

Shaya

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@ Shaya Shaya how exactly are you Jab Canceling Falco's Jab? As I can't get it to Jab Cancel for the life of me.
In falco's case it's just the same timing for brawl and you aren't forced into the multi jab if you just do the first two hits. Jab1 tilt, walk, dash, grab or jab2 into the same seems pretty straight forward and you can still do like jab1-2 into jab1-2 again on shield if they hold shield expecting continuing hits.
 

Smooth Criminal

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On the topic of jabs, D3's is pretty good if it connects. You mostly really on his tilts and short hops, but when you do use it as a mix up/punish, it naturally sets up frame traps with jab cancels, grabs, etc with the fact that one hit brings them in, another out, and if you mix it up on them, you can bounce them around between the two hits to try and bait out an air dodge/shield and punish.
I couldn't have said it better if I tried. I just wish jab-canceling with the King had a couple more viable options than dtilt and grab (even then, it's kinda sketch). Like I've nailed people with Up-Smash and Down-Smash out of it before, but I feel like there's a whoooooole buncha leniency for the opponent to just GGPO ("good game, peace out") of the setup by airdodging, mashing aerials, pretty much anything in return. Am I imagining a discrepancy here, Z, or is it really legit? I can see the mixup potential of course, but it's not a "true," reliable link, is it?

Smooth Criminal
 
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mimgrim

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In falco's case it's just the same timing for brawl and you aren't forced into the multi jab if you just do the first two hits. Jab1 tilt, walk, dash, grab or jab2 into the same seems pretty straight forward and you can still do like jab1-2 into jab1-2 again on shield if they hold shield expecting continuing hits.
Are you talking about the IASA frames Falco has on Jab 1 and 2? As I thought Jab Canceling was actually canceling the Jab with a crouch preemptively, even before the IASA frames if they have them?
 

Shaya

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You can M-art cancel into a grab though which is the superior option when it presents itself pretty much all of the time and dtilt of peace.


Hmm I didn't think Kirbys jab was bad am I missing something or was this part of the haven't seen offline.
Basically the haven't seen offline (i.e. either personally or seen them used in tournament). Out of the rest of the jabs I either think they're "pretty usable still" or just not enough info. Like, I don't think Mario/Luigi jabs are bad, Samus' jab looks horrendous on first look but it may be designed to just be a first hit move. I find solid usages of Pikachu's jab as well, although I wouldn't call it great.

Meanwhile, Meta Knight's jab is really really bad. Press A once and you're stuck for an hour. GRRR.

Are you talking about the IASA frames Falco has on Jab 1 and 2? As I thought Jab Canceling was actually canceling the Jab with a crouch preemptively, even before the IASA frames if they have them?
Pressing down first only allowed you to reset your state as to avoid the game taking your "A" input as a follow up input of your other hits of jab, as the windows for them can actually often be longer than the IASA.
 
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Z'zgashi

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I couldn't have said it better if I tried. I just wish jab-canceling with the King had a couple more viable options than dtilt and grab (even then, it's kinda sketch). Like I've nailed people with Up-Smash and Down-Smash out of it before, but I feel like there's a whoooooole buncha leniency for the opponent to just GGPO ("good game, peace out") of the setup by airdodging, mashing aerials, pretty much anything in return. Am I imagining a discrepancy here, Z, or is it really legit? I can see the mixup potential of course, but it's not a "true," reliable link, is it?

Smooth Criminal
Nothing but finishing the full jab combo out is true unless they get the landing lag after jab 1 (not sure exactly how that landing lag works, but Im 99% sure at least another jab 1 or grab is guaranteed if they land), but it most definitely sets up a huge advantage frame trap wise. Honestly, unless they have a sex kick or something similar, you can basically just play around with them like a cat with a mouse.

Also, its fun to use the multi hit from his jab for spacing, the last hit has an OBSCENELY big disjoint lol
 
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As bad as Shulk's jab combo is, I did hear someone KO'd Game and Watch at 123% with it. Of course, Smash (Default) mode was activated and bad DI might have helped but it's worth noting anyway

And that's another thing. There are a notable amount of jabs in this game that can KO
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Was unable to post my full thoughts earlier due to work.

Top Tier:

:4zss: I really don't think this character has any sort of true weakness. Sure, she might be lighter than a good portion of the cast, though this only helps her escape combos more than anything else. Several disjointed hitboxes, strong attacks, two recovery options, incredible speed, great Dthrow for combos, great projectile for combos, incredibly low landing lag, an Up B that kills and is a great OoS option, Zair for zoning, and more. Seriously, what was Nintendo thinking when making this character? Unless she is patched, there is no way this character is dropping down to anything below top tier.

:rosalina:Very similar to ZSS in that she has no true weaknesses...kind of. Unlike ZSS however, she does have a few weaknesses, but they are backed up with even more insane strengths. She's extremely light and a huge target, making her easy to send far...were it not for the fact that Lumas protect her pretty much 24/7. Easily the best trap/stage control character in the game with how Luma works, and this strength is further amplified by how her normal moveset by itself is above average as well. The only thing it really lacks is KO potential, which Luma also covers. And losing a Luma hardly matters due to how quickly they respawn. That's honestly the biggest complaint I have with her. If her Luma took longer to respawn, she would be a lot more balanced overall. Either way though, I can see this character's potential only continue to rise, especially since all of her custom moves are good as well. Oh, the fact that you can't really pummel her or grab her for long also is quite annoying as well.

:4sheik: The last of the "big three" of the strongest characters in the game, currently anyways. But these three don't appear to be going anywhere any time soon. She has one of the best projectiles in the entire game (needles), which are great for free damage and interrupting your opponent. She also probably has the best combo game out of the entire roster to boot, with how Ftilt/Dtilt pop opponents up for juggles, Fair has literally no langing lag at all, her Bair/Nair also have very low landing lag, her throws are great for setting up combos/strings (especially Dthrow), and more. Bouncing Fish is an amazing special move that helps with KOing, recovery, and techchases to boot. I haven't experimented enough with her grenades though, so I am not too sure how good they are. Either way though, she is really fast and has no troubles at all being able to get up in your face and lay down the pressure. Her one minor flaw is that her KO potential is somewhat lacking besides Usmash and Bouncing Fish, though this hardly matters. The only other thing holding her back from being "God Tier" is that her recovery still leaves a little to be desired, even though it got buffed with Bouncing Fish.

:4sonic: Sonic got quite a few buffs, in all the places that he wanted to have them. More speed, more KOing power, a better Dsmash/Dash Attack/Homing Attack, more differences between Side B and Down B...and a metagame/game engine to better suit his playstyle. Because Smash 4 heavily relies on footsies, and with the addition of pivot tilts/Smashes to his arsenal, Sonic won big in this game. Not to mention, Side/Down B to jump to Nair is pretty much a free 30% damage combo against the opponent whenever you are able to hit them with it. He even still has Spinshotting still, and a new ability (which I somewhat discovered) called "Instant Spin Dash Jump"...which further adds more tools to his ability to approach and combo opponents. His Uthrow is also great in that he can chase the opponent afterwards using Spring, and then follow up with Uair. He still has a few small problems, he doesn't like being shielded against and his aerials have quite a lot of landing lag. But in regards to Sonic, this character has gained a lot of new ground, and is only going to continue to pick up speed.

:4diddy:Pretty much the character Mario always wanted to be. He's above average at pretty much mostly everything he does. Good recovery, good damage, good speed, good KO moves, good combos, good projectile/trap, good techchase with Side B, good throws, good gimping potential and a great meteor Dair. Overall he's just really solid, and there's not much else I can really say about him. He just simply works. Sure, bananas took a pretty hard hit, but everything else he has seems to have gotten better. He is also one of the few characters who has two throws which can lead into true combos (Uthrow and Dthrow). His main problems are that he has one of the worst jabs in the entire game (just use Dtilt instead), and his Usmash tends to miss opponents more due the the last hit being a linear uppercut now. And...that's about it really. Simple, fun, and effective.

:4yoshi: Probably the weakest of the top tiers, but still incredibly solid. He has a nigh-flawless combination of ground and air speed which feels exceptionally fluid, which is great for both approaching and retreating. Lots of coverage/pressure from eggs to keep opponents at bay, especially with Dtilt to help keep opponents off of him. Dtilt also helps him put the opponent into a position where he can gimp/spike them off of the stage too. His Utilt is great for following it up with Uair, Bair is great for playing both defensively and offensively and it can KO, and Dair just destroys shields and spot-dodges. His new Usmash and Dash Attacks are great boons to his arsenal as well, but the loss of his old Usmash means that he is a bit more vulnerable from behind. His recovery is still a hindrance, and Egg Roll still pretty much sucks unfortunately. But other than that, he's really good this time around. And he's got a few good customs to boot, specifically his Star Egg custom which gives him yet another option to zone people out.

High Tier

:4ness: Ness is pretty great in this game, though I feel as though he is being slightly overhyped. But that is just me. His ground game still sucks, his Dthrow -> Aerial combos drops more often than I would like it to, his Dair is worse in this game (much to my dismay), and his recovery is...well, still incredibly easy to gimp. Fair and PK Fire are still great for keeping people at bay, and his Dsmash YoYo feels better in this game too. And the fact that PK Thunder is actually a great projectile in this game is quite humerous to me. Even so though, I feel as though his potential might wane over time. What he does good at, he does pretty good at. But exploiting his flaws is like an Achilles Heel, and brings him to his knees. But for now, it's good to see him finally have some time in the spotlight. At the very least, he has Lucas's PK Thunder to help him with his recovery in this game, so that's something.

:4falcon:Probably the most buffed character in the entire cast, in my opinion. The sole fact that it feels like I am playing Captain Falcon again and not a bottom tier character alone gives me a lot of hype. Utilt spike is just a brilliant buff that helps both with edgeguarding and combos and I love it. And his Knee of Justice actually KOs again now. Gentlemen is great in this game, Dtilt sets up for gimps, and dash grab is just scary. His recovery is still bad, however, though Up B is good for racking up damage sometimes (17%). I did notice one problem however. If he uss his Up B and hits an opponent with it and then lands, he still has the Up B landing lag afterwards. Though this can be fixed by using a Uair before landing upon the ground, which has little to no landing lag and is a great move anyways. Overall though, I am thoughroughly impressed with Captain Falcon in this game, and "I'm glad he is back."

:4greninja: I feel as though people are overestimating this character, but not by too much. He has trouble killing, his tilts aren't too spectacular, his smashes are kind of slow, and his Side B has too much startup and endlag to be useful despite how cool the concept is. But everything else he has is really good. Nair can chain into both Usmash and Fair at certain percents, his projectile is pretty good, his recovery is amazing, and his aerials are all really solid. He wants his opponents to be in the air as much as possible, since he pretty much out-Falcos Falco in the sky. He seems to have a bit of trouble when people get up in his face though, which is why I feel as though people are giving him a bit too much credit. But otherwise, he is a really good character.

:4marth:People should not underestimate Marth's strength. Tippers are very scary. That being said, his recovery still sucks. Being able to easily kill at like 80% is no joke in Smash 4 though.

:4duckhunt::4pacman::4peach::4robinm::4tlink::4wario2:

Mid Tier

:4bowser: Currently a little overhyped right now, at least with default moves anyways. He is incredibly threatening if he hits you however, but he is still susceptible to combos and being zoned out. With his Dash Grab custom however? Definitely ends up being a high tier with that move alone, as it increases his mobility and gives him a techchase that he can easily abuse. I can only see this character's potential grow over time, at least accounting for the high probability that customs will be allowed.

:4ludwig: A great mindgame character with Side B and Mechakoopas, but falls a little flat in being great due to his inability to KO at reliable percents. I think one thing that people are overlooking is his ability to mitigate damage/combos due to his unique mechanics, though most combos will still probably hit him anyways since he is a fatty (and can also take more damage instead, also due to his unique mechanics). Side B also isn't as good as people think it is, since it is rather easy to block with good prediction. Even so though, like Bowser, I can only see this character's potential rise, also accounting for customs probably being allowed in the future. Giant Mechakoopas and his Spinout Side B custom being prime candidates for helping him shoot up in regards to competitive viability. (Also, his cannonball move sucks imo, and none of his customs help with that)

:4dk: Very similar gameplan to Bowser, but a tad bit more agile and less strong. His 10-Wind Giant Punch is no joke, and can KO opponents at around 50% or less depending on the situations. I also really love his new Down B spike in the air now, which is probably his best spike besides Dair (also having 4 spikes is pretty awesome, even though the Side B spike sucks in this game). Other than that, DK feels like DK in this game, and is overall pretty solid. Like Diddy, he is very simple and straightforward.

:4dedede: Not as bad as some people say he is. Dthrow and sourspot Nair are still great for combos, and I still love how his Jab 2 can set the opponent up for being grabbed afterwards. His Gordo can be punished, but it still needs to be respected as well. I also think that people should use his Down B more, since it has quite a bit of knockback to it. Either way though, his weaknesses still definitely hinder him though. His speed doesn't do him any favors in particular, and it's not really fun to have a Gordo come back and smack you in the face. DeDeDe still definitely works though, and just requires more patience to play as in contrast to a lot of other characters. His Dash Attack is still absolutely horrendous, however.

:4megaman: Definitely not bottom tier, unlike how quite a few people think he is. None of his toolkit really flows together, though this makes Mega Man also quite unpredictable to fight against. Reflectors are his bane, but otherwise his zoning potential is not to be underestimated. And depending on who he is fighting, he could end up being really great or...not especially great, but still fairly decent. Also, Leaf Shield isn't bad. It leaves a lot to be desired, but it still has definitive uses and situations in which it can shine in.

:4lucina: The sole fact that she can't KO as early as Marth drops her down a tier. I tested her hitlag on shield in comparison to Marth and didn't find much of a noticeable difference. Even so, she's still pretty solid with both things considered. Just not as good as Marth, and no real reason to use her as opposed to Marth...unless you really like the character or are looking for a challenge.

:4metaknight::4link::4pit::4darkpit:

Low Tier

:4luigi:I don't think Luigi is as bad as people say he is. He's not great, but not incredibly bad. His Fireballs are good for zoning, his Down B is decent for techchases, he has the easiest Dthrow to combo after in the world, and his recovery is pretty decent. He also has quite a few custom moves to help add to his viability as well. In particular, I found that his Floating Missile custom helps quite a bit with his ability to edgeguard, with its increased knockback and decreased charge time in comparison to the standard Green Missile. His low air speed and inability to reliably KO are still huge pains in the neck though, as well as his short range. He can still win though, but he really has to earn it. You have to be very patient with him (like DeDeDe), as Luigi seems to be more of a defensive character overall. Also, be careful of his bad traction, too.

:4shulk:Would be MUCH better if every single one of his moves didn't lag so much. At least his Nair and Monado Arts are fun though, and he has a ton of range. But I doubt he'll end up any higher than this. He also has the worst Jab in the game, along with Meta Knight and Diddy, which is rather unfortunate. Speed Monado -> Buster Monado -> Smash Monado seems to be his best gameplan in a match, with Jump being used for Monado landing lag canceling and Shield being used in desperate situations.

:4ganondorf::4gaw::4myfriends::4samus:

Bottom Tier

:4mario:As much as it pains me to say it, but I really don't think Mario is all that good in this game. With customs he's a lot better, but his default moveset is quite bad. He might end up in lower tier with his brother Luigi, but I am not so sure at the moment. He has to read his opponents nearly twice as much as any other character has to, because of his low damage output. He also has a lot of trouble KOing too, having no good aerials to help seal a KO for him. He has pretty good speed and little landing lag on Nair/Bair/Dair, but that's about it really. His short range, slow fireball, inability to KO, lack of damage output, surprising difficulty with certain combos, incredibly poor recovery, and other problems just pile up too much for him to handle in some matches. In Smash 4, Mario takes "Jack of all trades, Master of None" a little too seriously. With emphasis on the "Master of None" section in particular. It feels as though everything he can do, another character can do better. He can still win matchups, due to how balanced Smash 4 is overall, but most battles are going to be uphill ones for him. Or at least, even at best. FLUDD was buffed, but its potency is a bit lacking due to how a lot of characters can easily recover in Smash 4, and with how moves tends to send opponents at higher angles in this game. And while Explosion Punch really helps solve Mario's KOing problem, it makes his recovery worse and takes away some of his combo options. The one thing he has with no drawbacks is the Gust Cape, which helps both his recovery and is amazing for gimping potential. It will only take him so far though, as every other character has access to equally amazing custom moves too. In short, Mario can still win against most of the cast, and I might be being a little too harsh on him. However, as a Mario main for 10+ years, I can say with absolute confidence that he is below average in almost every category. I am still very dedicated to the character and I will still always play as him, but I feel as though winning with him will be a struggle due to his drawbacks as opposed to my skill as the player (most of the time). And that's the kind of feeling that you should never really feel when playing a character in a fighting game, barring joke characters.

:4drmario: Pretty much the same as above, only noticeably much slower but with a little bit more KOing power. One-Two Punch is the absolute worst recovery in the game, even worse than Little Mac, and that is absolutely horrible. On the bright side, one of his Down B customs helps with his recovery. Since you pretty much won't be using Down B to attack with much anyways, and Doc needs all the help he can get in regards to recovery and mobility.

:4kirby: Why on Earth did they think giving this character more startup lag on everything was a good idea? I seriously think that Kirby needs to steal some of ZSS's overall speed, and then both of them would end up being more balanced characters. I also dislike how Stone is nigh-useless now that you can't really cancel out of it super early as before. He's not Melee Kirby bad, and he can still win like Mario, but he is definitely below average in comparison to the rest of the cast just like Mario. I miss his 64 days...

:4olimar: Would be a lot better...if they didn't nerf his weight to hell. He has potential, but he won't ever truly shine since he pretty much gets swatted away like a gnat. Just because his new Up B is a pretty decent recovery, doesn't mean he should be this light. Heck, Villager's recovery is extremely similar, and yet he's almost as fat as Mario. I seriously don't understand Sakurai balancing sometimes. :/

Cheese Tier

:4littlemac: Along with Mega Man, though to a much higher degree, he is the most polarizing character in the entire game. Depending on the matchup and stage, he can either be extremely good or extremely bad. Which I personally find hilarious, since it allows him to be very serious...yet chock-full of laughs due to how easily he gets wrecked in certain situations. So while he might not be the best or worst character in the game, he is certainly unique, and very fun to play and play against. Super armor on Smashes is a bit too cheesy sometimes, but you simply cannot have Mac without the Cheese. It is an unwritten rule that should never be broken.

Not Sure Yet
:4palutena::4charizard::4falco::4fox::4jigglypuff::4lucario::4pikachu::4rob::4villager::4wiifit::4zelda::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:
 
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Only adding and replying to things. I won't tackle the tier list part
:4shulk:Would be MUCH better if every single one of his moves didn't lag so much. At least his Nair and Monado Arts are fun though, and he has a ton of range. But I doubt he'll end up any higher than this. He also has the worst Jab in the game, along with Meta Knight and Diddy, which is rather unfortunate. Speed Monado -> Buster Monado -> Smash Monado seems to be his best gameplan in a match, with Jump being used for Monado langing lag canceling and Shield being used in desperate situations.
His playstyle is primarily to space and be defensive unless if he's in speed and jump, you can throw that out of the window and run in and out safely with SHFF N-airs, boost pivot grabs (With speed only) and easy follow ups as long as you space n-air correctly. Some attacks have unreasonable amount of lag (F-smash) but his tilts are fine anyway. He's all about range. Trying to rush down with him (Unless you're in jump or speed) is a bad idea. His jab sucks though (Sorry about the last page) but his tilts are fine, especially for spacing again. The guy's edgeguarding is nice especially when jump or smash kick in

I'd say power vision and hyper monado arts pretty much helps by a lot. You can KO anyone with hyper Smash below 100% with your tilts (With air slash, he can KO Mario at 65% but that's near the edge but air slash as KO move is usually used for edgeguarding so this is you'll always be near the edge anyway) easily and it helps to mix it up with the Monado Arts Landing lag cancel. Also, lol power vision KO's at ridiculous percentages. You practically don't have to rack up that much damage. Just rack up around 70-95% and they're good to go.
:4littlemac: Along with Mega Man, though to a much higher degree, he is the most polarizing character in the entire game. Depending on the matchup and stage, he can either be extremely good or extremely bad. Which I personally find hilarious, since it allows him to be very serious...yet chock-full of laughs due to how easily he gets wrecked in certain situations. So while he might not be the best or worst character in the game, he is certainly unique, and very fun to play and play against. Super armor on Smashes is a bit too cheesy sometimes, but you simply cannot have Mac without the Cheese. It is an unwritten rule that should never be broken.
I've been playing around with this guy today

As a character, Mac is not as polarizing as I thought. His ground game is amazing enough to give reasons to maining him. His aerials may be crappy and his recovery options are ass but as a character? He's great. Like what everyone said, he's gonna be scary with someone that masters him and takes advantage of his armored normals. The strategy of grabbing him and throwing him off stage and attempting to gimp is undeniably the best way to go at him but it's easier said than done. Slip counter helps with recovery back to the stage if they try to edgeguard you off stage

I don't know how stages will affect him but he's not that ****ty in Battlefield imo
It pains me very much that I agree with you on Kirby. You forgot to mention how he has trouble killing in comparison to other characters as well, and how his throws rarely lead to combos. Also his range seems to have shrunk since brawl. People who claim Kirby isn't show really don't know what they're talking about. I am seriously jealous of jigglypuffs air speed and KO ability with her back air.
You want my Monado Jump? :D
 
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GrnFzzTgr

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@ ItsRainingGravy ItsRainingGravy It pains me very much that I agree with you on Kirby. You forgot to mention how he has trouble killing in comparison to other characters as well, and how his throws rarely lead to combos. Also his range seems to have shrunk since brawl. People who claim Kirby isn't slow really don't know what they're talking about. I am seriously jealous of jigglypuff's air speed and KO ability with her back air.
 
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Oh and about ZSS, her paralyzer is something you forgot to mention. It plays a hefty role in her game plan against most match ups

It's also why she's not that good against Game and Watch

Despite all I said, thanks for explaining
 
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GrnFzzTgr

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Monado jump? Nah, I'll take speed and buster though. Getting launched even easier than I already do isn't worth it.

Speaking of ZSS, Kirby can practically duck under her ground game save for three moves.

I love watching for glory ZSS's spam the dash attack, grab, or paralyzer only for them to miss and go over my head.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Honestly, what I think is surprising me in this game is that none of the Zelda characters are bottom tier in this game. Worst off is Ganondorf who by design is probably somewhat fated to be low tier (until his DACUS is proven broken?). And I don't think Ganondorf has any seriously unwinnable matchups yet. Well, until someone proves that either Mega Man or Sheik is impractically difficult for him. But seriously, Ganondorf always has to be respected when any hit he lands could potentially be the equivalent of two or three hits from any other character. Absolutely nobody kills faster than Ganondorf in this game on a read, and it's not like his moves are actually bad. Almost all of them are AMAZING individually as punishes. A few pages ago, I just cited that a Ganondorf in Japan took 2nd in a 108 man tourney. This character can't be slept on.

Zelda to me literally can't be worse than lower mid tier for two simple reasons. You can't ****ing trap this character if she plays right and mixes up her landing with Up-B well, and she hits REALLY hard (keeping in mind she can KO you at long range with her Up-B, meaning landing is never safe against Zelda). Keeping in mind that her grab was normalized, and that airdodge and ledge physics favor her very very significantly in this game, giving her one of THE best recoveries in the game period. She's a character that survives long and just generally owns you if you end up only trading with her 1 for 1 and your name is not Ganondorf or Bowser. She's vulnerable to counterpicks against super high mobility characters, but even those matchups I don't think are completely hopeless simply because Zelda actually has really good ground moves. The fact she easily gets around projectile zoning doesn't hurt either when it means Rosalina, Duck Hunt, and Yoshi actually have to play respectfully against her.

Link seems fairly middle of the road. His defensive game is decent, and he has good KO confirms off Jab and good survivability. But he really is just seriously hindered by a poor grab game. Give Link real followups off throws, he'd probably be high tier unquestionably.

Even though TL's ground game isn't as good as Link's, he outshines Link by being better at camping and running away, and having superior throws. He's pretty good at most things that matter, and his KO moves aren't even weak. His only problem is he lacks consistent safe setups into them, though this is partially compensated for with his superior B-throw for KOs.

I don't think much needs to be said about Sheik. The only question is how much DACUS will round out her game, and if it will address her minor problems getting KOs easily.
 
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I am disappointed for the sheer lack of PacMan impressions. The yellow mouthball is really good folks.
Some people thought he was good. Like me. Despite his grab, I still think the melon is viable. Some people thought he was mediocre. I'm a bit mixed about his customs. The only one special with interesting customs imo is his down B
Monado jump? Nah, I'll take speed and buster though. Getting launched even easier than I already do isn't worth it.

Speaking of ZSS, Kirby can practically duck under her ground game save for three moves.

I love watching for glory ZSS's spam the dash attack, grab, or paralyzer only for them to miss and go over my head.
I hate dealing with you Kirbys. Trying to inhale me.
Even though TL's ground game isn't as good as Link's, he outshines Link by being better at camping and running away, and having superior throws. He's pretty good at most things that matter, and his KO moves aren't even weak. His only problem is he lacks consistent safe setups into them, though this is partially compensated for with his superior B-throw for KOs..
Also, his customs are great. I take back what I said about fire arrows being underwhelming (Setting the stage on fire is fun). It's surprisingly good. His bombs though... I don't know. I got some funny applications out of time bomb like grabbing people while holding it but it's pretty impractical. Not sure about his giant bomb either. Not much to get out of it but I'd love to hear some ideas
 
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GrnFzzTgr

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And then you realize we Kirby's can use your speed boosted pivot grab and monado arts cancels when we do manage to eat you!
 
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@ ItsRainingGravy ItsRainingGravy It pains me very much that I agree with you on Kirby. You forgot to mention how he has trouble killing in comparison to other characters as well, and how his throws rarely lead to combos. Also his range seems to have shrunk since brawl. People who claim Kirby isn't slow really don't know what they're talking about. I am seriously jealous of jigglypuff's air speed and KO ability with her back air.
I'm guessing in this one so counter me with all you got

I haven't been to the match up discussion thread there yet but I can take a shot and guess that you guys hate Greninja, Yoshi and as always Marth, correct me if I'm wrong. You guys seem pretty fine with the rest of the cast (Especially Shulk). Maybe the match ups feel mostly even or slightly advantaged? Like, it can go either way which is probably why it's stressful for you. As long as you guys do alright against at least over half the cast, I'm not sure if Kirby deserves bottom tier position even though if Yoshi is a thing. And Jigglypuff.

You can correct me on this. I'm just asking here
 

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Yeah good greninjas and Yoshi feel pretty nightmarish for us. Kirby still has his flaws from melee/brawl. Fast characters, and characters who out range us are trouble some. For me personally. A lot of the fights feel up hill. I'm not the best Kirby though and I tend to be really aggro.
 
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Tagxy

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Pikachus jab is bad but not as bad as I thought. Now I believe it actually has hitstun and the opponent is pushed out at precisely dtilts distance. Not really something you initiate with but certainly his best "get away from me" move.
On Pikachu I think the stun jolt is just obviously worth it; it begins comboing to fsmash around 50% which is just nutty and I feel one of the core strengths of Pikachu in this game given that Pikachu has shorter limbs than all of the other quicker combo-style characters, less damage than most of them, only one actually safe aerial, and a combo game that has less actually guaranteed stuff than someone like Mario has anyway so something really powerful and solid like stun I think is really important to this character. Down 2 in particular also kills stupid early on this character so it very well may synchronize well with the stun jolt; I dunno if giving up Thunder is really generally worth it mostly because Thunder is a combo escape, but down 2 really is just great on Pikachu and can do some other funny stuff for him as well (worse recovery characters have a nasty time reaching the ledge if Pikachu just covers it with down 2).
lol, we have a very different view of the character. I really doubt pika will need stun jolt for his combo or neutral game, but it could be worth it if it significantly improves his ability to land killing hits earlier.
 

Z'zgashi

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Atm Im personally thinking the tier grouping is roughly like this (and no order in tiers, I literally just went through the character select screen and put character into the tiers in the order they are in game):

Top: :rosalina: :4wario2: :4diddy: :4sheik: :4zss: :4pikachu: :4lucario: :4jigglypuff: :4greninja: :4sonic:
High: :4yoshi: :4bowserjr: :4gaw: :4tlink: :4pit: :4marth: :4fox: :4duckhunt: :4rob: :4ness: :4villager: :4darkpit: :4lucina: :4pacman:
Mid: :4peach: :4bowser: :4dk: :4link: :4zelda: :4robinm: :4dedede: :4littlemac: :4falcon: :4shulk: :4megaman:
Low: :4mario: :4luigi: :4ganondorf: :4samus: :4palutena: :4myfriends: :4kirby: :4metaknight: :4falco: :4charizard: :4olimar: :4wiifit: :4drmario:

Mii's Ive literally hardly touched and I couldnt tell you anything about them honestly. This is also not taking into account custom moves, I personally dont want to worry about those yet until we've got a grasp on default characters first.

Im going to sleep now, but Im completely willing to explain/discuss/listen to anything related to any character (except Miis lol), just quote me and I'll respond next time I get on (probably around 16-18 hours from now lol).
 

Tagxy

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As I mentioned earlier somewhere, the main thing Id miss about regular jolt over stun jolt is its ability to control space offstage that works well in tandem with thunder. Maybe Im just too used to it, I could see stun being overall better I just think its not as no-brainer as it might initially seem.

Also peeps remember not to post tier lists unless you have elaborate explanations. I saw a mountain of infractions earlier for them :<
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Not seeing why people are so bummed about Shulk's jab. I think it's pretty good and people just don't realize how to use it properly. It's not a B&B jab like Ike's but more situational. But dude, Monado Buster Nair to Jab combo dishes out like 30% guaranteed to opponents at 50% or higher and you can't escape it as easily as some of the multi-hit jabs. It's not godlike but definitely not nearly as bad as some of you people make it sound.

Instead of people posting all these premature tier lists, we should be discussing matchups. Right now, does it look like Rosalina and Shiek have any bad matchups, or even any 50/50 matchups? How many other characters can we say that about? Greninja feels like he can have some bad matchups, and so does Diddy. Yoshi seems solid, but I don't know enough about his matchups yet.
I don't think Rosalina has a losing matchup. If anybody has the potential to straight-up beat her I'd say it's either Sonic or Yoshi though. Incidentally I'm curious to hear whom they could lose to because both look like their worst matchups could be even. I would not be surprised to see these three character having no disadvantaged matchup at all. Same goes for Greninja. Diddy though seems like he might lose a few. Rosalina has favorable tourney results against Diddy and some character could be able to gimp Diddy - Villager seems really annoying for Diddy too.

Sheik I would say looks like she might lose to Lucario. TKD thinks that Fox might beat her but I think it's even.

:059:
 
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