Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

Related question: How many of those lightweights have range comparable to ZSS/Rosalina?

This question seems pretty stange. For the most part i could ask how many heavy weights have range like samus. how is this relative?

 

[Pyr]

Have any of the balance patches we've seen thus far been bad for the game? (aside from bugging out Bowser's klaw)

Well, we've only gotten 1, so technically speaking, no. It removed quite a few techs, but it's overall impact was meh. Not bad, not good.

That said, quality patches increases the benefit of frequency. Mewtwo's update will bring changes most likely, since they're sending out an "update" anyway. For Smash, there should be 1 a year. Prob in December. Nintendo isn't incompetent like a lot of people want to believe, and they are paying attention from what I can see. A year of time to observe and balance seems... Appropriate for them in my viewpoint. Just a feeling.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Rosalina? She's a lightweight, right?

Yep, 4th lightest in the game behind Jigglypuff, G&W, and Kirby. (In that order, I think.)

This question seems pretty stange. For the most part i could ask how many heavy weights have range like samus. how is this relative?

Well, here's what he said:

Would it be fair to say that every character below 85 weight besides ZSS and Rosa have bad matchups with heavies? It sure seems like it. Almost all of them just get outspaced to 40% and then they die, while the heavies are just laughing as they get up to 150%.

Since he specifically mentioned getting outspaced, I was wondering if range was the main issue at play more than anything else.

 

[Jaxas]

Would it be fair to say that every character below 85 weight besides ZSS and Rosa have bad matchups with heavies? It sure seems like it. Almost all of them just get outspaced to 40% and then they die, while the heavies are just laughing as they get up to 150%.

I don't think they have bad Matchups, in fact the MU is likely heavily in their favor (Sheik, Pika, Sonic, etc seem like they all wreck heavyweights) but it may not feel like it because a single mistake on the Lightweights's part often means they flat out die.


Anyways...
I see a lot of discussion about "Everyone should know how to DI Diddy's Dthrow/etc by now, stop getting hit by non-true followups", but I don't think we have a thread (or other reference about what is (generally) the 'best' way to DI certain moves). Is there one and I'm just blind?

 

[Shaya]

The patch that removed vectoring was the patch that turned top 10 diddy into a clear winner, and suddenly the "low tier" feelings around mario and luigi reversed rapidly.
Lucario fell completely out of the lime light and by some is considered a significantly weaker character, he gained a weakness in his recovery but lost the ability to live for a lot longer.

An engine change such as vectoring would have had a HUGE impact, we can only really stipulate on it though as the meta was barely developed.

If the next patch tweaked rage (something many complain about), I wouldn't be surprised to see sudden shifts away from Diddy, Falcon, Ness, Sonic who have noticeable rage perks that oft decide matches in the current meta.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yep, 4th lightest in the game behind Jigglypuff, G&W, and Kirby. (In that order, I think.)


Well, here's what he said:


Since he specifically mentioned getting outspaced, I was wondering if range was the main issue at play more than anything else.

hmm perhaps but i don't see anybody who actually knows what they are doing with heavys to be afraid or range spacer attacks. its really projectiles they should have there mind on.

 

[S_B]

Well, we've only gotten 1, so technically speaking, no. It removed quite a few techs, but it's overall impact was meh. Not bad, not good.

That said, quality patches increases the benefit of frequency. Mewtwo's update will bring changes most likely, since they're sending out an "update" anyway. For Smash, there should be 1 a year. Prob in December. Nintendo isn't incompetent like a lot of people want to believe, and they are paying attention from what I can see. A year of time to observe and balance seems... Appropriate for them in my viewpoint. Just a feeling.

I can see that, but now that I think about it, a better question might be how well does NAMCO handle updating their fighting games?

 

[David Viran]

Nope. Just a bit more difficult to time.

And even if it did, you can negate this property by short-hopping, and canceling the vertical momentum of your jump with HSB.

Are you sure? I was using it yesterday and could not get it to sweet spot out of a dash once.

 

[Blobface]

On HSB, I do not have enough experience on it to really comment on the move itself. I'm not going to deny it has potential.

I would just like to note that the Ganon boards thought the exact same thing about Wizard's Drop Kick. Just like Esam, we thought it fixed all of Ganon's weaknesses, maybe even making him top/high tier.

I'm not denying the move is good, but make sure you remove all the silverware before you flip a table.

 

[Ffamran]

Have a weight chart handy?

Though I'm pretty sure Pika and Sonic both destroy heavies and I'm assuming they're below 85.

Here's a link: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/unread.

DISCLAIMER: Kirby won't be considered for testing with Monado arts until Wii U version and even then potentially won't be tested. Stop asking.

Being me, I've decided to rank each character by how much they weigh. Pretty much done. Not sure if Jump or Smash stance shulk change weight but he doesn't use those stances so I can't test it until I get the English copy of the game.

Rank | Character | Weight
1 | Extreme 盾 (Shield) Stance Shulk | 189*
2 | 盾 (Shield) Stance Shulk | 146*
3 | Koopa | 128
4 | DK | 122
5 | Dedede | 119
6-7 | Charizard | 115
6-7 | Bowser Jr. | 115
8 | Ganondorf | 112
9 | Samus | 108
10-11 | Ike | 107
10-11 | Wario | 107
12 | Robot | 106
13-15 | Captain Falcon | 104
13-15 | Link | 104
13-15 | Yoshi | 104
16-18 | Shulk | 102
16-18 | Max Weight Mii | 102
16-18 | Megaman | 102
19 | Default Weight Mii | 100
20 | Lucario | 99
21-22 | Dr. Mario | 98
21-22 | Mario | 98
23-25 | Villager | 97
23-25 | Min Weight Mii | 97
23-25 | Luigi | 97
26-28 | Wii Fit Trainer | 96
26-28 | Dark Pit | 96
26-28 | Pit | 96
29-31 | Robin | 95
29-31 | Sonic | 95
29-31 | Pacman | 95
32-33 | Frog | 94
32-33 | Ness | 94
34-35 | Toon Link | 93
34-35 | Diddy Kong | 93
36-37 | Palutena | 91
36-37 | Duck Hunt | 91
38-39 | Lucina | 90
38-39 | Marth | 90
40 | 撃 (Smash) Stance Shulk | 89.5
41 | Petch | 89
42-43 | Zelda | 85
42-43 | Sheik | 85
44-45 | Little Mac | 82
44-45 | Falco | 82
46 | Zero Suit Samus | 81
47 | Meta Knight | 80
48-50 | Fox | 79
48-50 | Olimar | 79
48-50 | Pikachu | 79
51 | Rosalina | 78
52 | Kirby | 77
53 | G&W | 75
54 | Jigglypuff | 68
55 | Extreme 撃 (Smash) Stance Shulk | 67

*Monado Art Weights accurate to ~1 point either side.

 

[Blobface]

Uh, is Peach supposed to be called Petch in that chart?

 

[Locke 06]

Related question: How many of those lightweights have range comparable to ZSS/Rosalina?

Olimar & his Pikmin fit the bill. G&W's disjoints are probably shorter, but he gains the advantage of being small.

The removal of vectoring, god frog, Rosa's Nairplane, OP dragon rush, Mac's ridiculously damaging multi-hit jab, and hitstun cancels like rush cancels, thunder combo breaks, and popgun canceling... along with the addition of Shulk's number buffs, Ike's & Dorf's autocancels, MK's damage buff(s?), and Zelda's utilt buff.

That patch did a lot. Along with the removal of DACUS.

And are you really basing your argument of who's viable based on "who wins an Apex or Evo" when there has only been a single one of those tournaments? Please stop.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Uh, is Peach supposed to be called Petch in that chart?

Yes. It's a reference to this.

 

[Lavani]

MK's damage buff(s?)

Nair got a damage buff from 7.5%>10%, while fthrow got a bugfix to make sure it always did its full 9% (many characters only took 3% from it)

He also got a significant knockback buff on bair and hitbox buffs for uair/dair.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Uh, is Peach supposed to be called Petch in that chart?

Author here.

Yes.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's as a joke for it to be Petch from streetpass I think.

Anyways Shaya's post still makes me dream of a world where rage is nerfed. I honestly would rather have smash 4 mechanics buffed/nerfed over buffing/nerfing characters.

Imagine a world where we can have people not dying 10% from Rosa Uair cuz Luma knockback is set. Or Falcon Raptor boost not having insane knockback growth due to rage.
Or Rolls being nerfed universally just like airdodges since Rolling on stage is the equivalent of planking in Brawl. They literally moved ledge invincibility and threw it into rolls not named Samus or Yoshi.
How about a game where we can apply shield pressure again without getting punished? Somebody shielding a move should get rewarded, yes, but to make shielding pressure almost non-existent cause of the shield changes.... plz...

The wet dream that never was.
Sack-of-rice, what goes on in that head of yours that seems to age backwards.

 

[S_B]

Uh, is Peach supposed to be called Petch in that chart?

 

[Ffamran]

Aren't rolls the same or similar to past games in SSB4?

 

[FullMoon]

Rolls have the exact same frame data as in Brawl I believe

 

[Sinister Slush]

A lot of rolls are insanely good or rolls with them teleporting more common like greninja palutena rosalina etc. similar to airdodges being just a couple frames faster with less lag at the end.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Rather nerf Shield Regen then Rage.
That regen is clearly based on Free-for-all because it's stupidly quick and pretty much counteracts the heightened shield damage entirely.

 

[AceMan]

I've watched a lot of matches and experimented a lot so here's my opinions, warning some of them are very controversial.
1) Diddy Kong is not the best Sheik is in my opinion as she has better projectiles, combos, approach options, et cetera.
2) Shulk is underrated, he may have a higher difficulty curve than others but I think as the metagame progresses and people realize how to use him he could be in one of the top 2 tiers.
3) Not counting Mii Fighters, the worst characters in the game are Falco, Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer, and Little Mac (In no particular order).
4) Kirby, Charizard, and Ganondorf are underrated, not saying top tier but I think Kirby could be Mid or High with the other two being mid.
5) Top 5 are Sheik, Diddy Kong, Rosalina and Luma, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu in said order. Don't feel the need to explain most of this as I explain top 2 in No. 1 and char 3 and 4 are generally accepted, Pikachu is controversial but I think he is better than many characters thought of above him such as Sonic as he has amazing speed, small size, decent finishers, underrated air game, great grabs, incredible combos, though he does suffer from the "IC syndrome" (Another name I use to define high learning curve as Ice Climbers were probably the first extremely hard characters to learn).
Those were just a few of my many controversial ideas, tell me if ya wanna know more.

 

[HeroMystic]

Rather nerf Shield Regen then Rage.
That regen is clearly based on Free-for-all because it's stupidly quick and pretty much counteracts the heightened shield damage entirely.

This. If Shield Regen was nerfed (perhaps taking 10 seconds to regain full shield HP instead of ~4), Shield Pressure would exist without ruining the offensive usage of shield, which a lot of characters rely on.

Kind of don't care about rolling. I punish those all day as long as I'm not on Wi-Fi.

 

[Antonykun]

Rather nerf Shield Regen then Rage.
That regen is clearly based on Free-for-all because it's stupidly quick and pretty much counteracts the heightened shield damage entirely.

This might be why chars with throw followups are so strong...

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Rather nerf Shield Regen then Rage.
That regen is clearly based on Free-for-all because it's stupidly quick and pretty much counteracts the heightened shield damage entirely.

I was so excited to see higher shield damage and then like 2 secs later it's back. Such a shame.

 

[NairWizard]

Would it be fair to say that every character below 85 weight besides ZSS and Rosa have bad matchups with heavies? It sure seems like it. Almost all of them just get outspaced to 40% and then they die, while the heavies are just laughing as they get up to 150%.

In that category you have: Little Mac, Falco, MK, Fox, Olimar, Pikachu, Kirby, Game and Watch, and Jigglypuff.

When customs are off, I think that LM, Falco, Fox, Pikachu, and Olimar enjoy clear advantages against heavies as a class.

MK is probably even vs. most, might lose to Ganon.
Kirby probably loses.
Jigglypuff is hard to analyze because... being light and dying early is just part of her design. Her aerial mobility is good enough to give her a fair shot at beating heavies without getting hit. They probably do win, though.
Game and Watch? Probably. @ Shaya probably has some thoughts on Game and Watch vs. heavies.

When customs are on, heavies get better, but so do many of the above characters. Kirby for instance probably wins against the heavies or at worst goes even because his customs are great. Jumping Inhale is particularly effective against heavies because you can chain smoke them. Pikachu may struggle without liberal use of Heavy Skull Bash, but he has that, so I don't know. Falco's customs are amazing; so are Fox's.

So yeah, overall I disagree.

 

[S_B]

Rather nerf Shield Regen then Rage.
That regen is clearly based on Free-for-all because it's stupidly quick and pretty much counteracts the heightened shield damage entirely.

I made a post discussing this in the comp forum but a mod locked it, then never moved it to the general. :\

I feel like heavies would suck a WHOLE lot less if this was the case, especially if their attacks did more shield damage in general...

 

[Ffamran]

I've watched a lot of matches and experimented a lot so here's my opinions, warning some of them are very controversial.
1) Diddy Kong is not the best Sheik is in my opinion as she has better projectiles, combos, approach options, et cetera.
2) Shulk is underrated, he may have a higher difficulty curve than others but I think as the metagame progresses and people realize how to use him he could be in one of the top 2 tiers.
3) Not counting Mii Fighters, the worst characters in the game are Falco, Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer, and Little Mac (In no particular order).
4) Kirby, Charizard, and Ganondorf are underrated, not saying top tier but I think Kirby could be Mid or High with the other two being mid.
5) Top 5 are Sheik, Diddy Kong, Rosalina and Luma, Zero Suit Samus, and Pikachu in said order. Don't feel the need to explain most of this as I explain top 2 in No. 1 and char 3 and 4 are generally accepted, Pikachu is controversial but I think he is better than many characters thought of above him such as Sonic as he has amazing speed, small size, decent finishers, underrated air game, great grabs, incredible combos, though he does suffer from the "IC syndrome" (Another name I use to define high learning curve as Ice Climbers were probably the first extremely hard characters to learn).
Those were just a few of my many controversial ideas, tell me if ya wanna know more.

Your ideas are more of statements rather than arguments. I could say, right now, that Meta Knight is the 6th best character in the game. So, what? Absolutely nothing, that's what. You have to back up you claims or they'll fall flat and people will just ignore you. You have to to explain why Shulk, Kirby, Charizard, and Ganondorf are underrated, why Falco, Palutena, Wii Fit Trainer, and Little Mac are the worst characters in the game, Otherwise, it's just empty statements and there's no context too like people say that Palutena, Kirby, Ganondorf, and Wii Fit Trainer with customs are great, but without them, Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer are meh, Kirby's all right, and Ganondorf's all right.

 

[Antonykun]

I can't wait for people to scream JANK!!!!! OP!!!! #BANCUSTOMS at custom Kirby. I can practically taste the salt now.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I'd argue Kirby's A-button moves alone make him fairly strong anyway. Lousy Kirby Amiibo kicking my ass without ever using stone or hammer mumblrgrumble...

I can't wait for to scream JANK!!!!! OP!!!! #BANCUSTOMS at custom Kirby. I can practically taste the salt now.

Makes me wonder how it hasn't caused that already. Has there been a gif on reddit's front page with Kirby's giant hammer custom killing at 10%, with screams for bans yet?

 

[Judo777]

Rolls have the exact same frame data as in Brawl I believe

I actually believe all rolls in this game are the same as the absolute best rolls in Brawl. So they are better.

 

[deepseadiva]

Speaking of , I've been thinking about her as a Diddy... answer? Not a counter of course (hahaha no). But she has interesting tools versus him. What are Diddy's "worst" matchups? I might forward Peach as a good enough one as any:

I'm still deciding on which character to use against Diddy. Doesn't seem like any character has an actual advantage on him currently, especially with customs off. I also doubt any character has an exactly even matchup with him as well. Hoo Ha is just such an always-looming advantage. I tried out using Peach at a tournament last weekend and got absolutely rocked by our resident Diddy. I chalk that up to my own freshness with the character though, Peach did give me some strong moments in the match and I might be hopeful with her going forward. As I'm still choosing my character choice vs Diddy, Peach might be good enough as any... I like what @Dee-SmashinBoss says here about some unique tools Peach could use versus the character:

I agree that Peach has some potential to face Diddy and has some tools to space, kill and approach him.
Because she can float it greatly helps avoid Diddy's grab.
I think floating from the ground makes you avoid bananas on the ground?
If I am correct, her Usmash should generally beat Monkey flip if time correctly and is a good tool to use against Diddy overall.

Her turnips are defiantly a necessity and you should always have one available.
Is Diddy great at dealing pressure? That's what I find to be one of Peach's greatest weaknesses.
Overall, this matchup is likely to be in Diddys favour 60:40 but it is close, so possibly even.

Float as an approach is total ass. But float as a means to avoid hoo-ha might be something, and a something no other character in the game really has. Imagine taking Diddy to a platform heavy stage like Battlefield. I'm sure he has his own advantages on it with his ludicrous aerials, but floating+platforms could be used to minimize his grab opportunities? Just brainstorming.

Turnips could be an essential tool for dealing with banana. Ideally, I'd like a character with Gravitational Pull, or Pocket - but Rosalina and Villager have their own problems with Diddy. Another option, and one Peach conveniently has is a counter-item. Imagine everytime Diddy pauses to summon a banana, we pause as well to pull up a turnip. Peach doesn't have to be at the mercy of being totally out camped. She can at least answer back with an item of her own - even if Diddy has the much more powerful combination of Peanuts+Banana. At least it's something, and a package Peach can offer.

And the #1 thing that makes Peach interesting versus Diddy in my eyes:

Kill Power. Girl has kill power now, and most critically: an aerial that can kill early. Fair is such a huge tool and the fact that she can end a stock on Mr. Kong somewhat consistently is dazzlingly attractive.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Anyways...
I see a lot of discussion about "Everyone should know how to DI Diddy's Dthrow/etc by now, stop getting hit by non-true followups", but I don't think we have a thread (or other reference about what is (generally) the 'best' way to DI certain moves). Is there one and I'm just blind?

I have been wondering about the existence of this kind of thread as well.

I asked a similar questions back in the General, but no one answered either:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-4-question-and-answer-thread.392840/#post-18695070

Speaking of Peach, I've been thinking about her as a Diddy... answer? Not a counter of course (hahaha no). But she has interesting tools versus him. What are Diddy's "worst" matchups? I might forward Peach as a good enough one as any:

Answer? I dunno about that, Diddy's f-air can snipe her and wall her pretty well. But if you know something I don't about her tools, do share.

I think Wario is a more interesting answer, being able to eat banana and peanuts and answer his Monkey Flip command grab with Bite command grab (beats it, though not the attack kick)

 

[HeroMystic]

This might be why chars with throw followups are so strong...

Partially.

Shield as a whole is balanced since it's automatically beaten by grab, and knocking your opponent in the air. Without grabs, there is no way for Shield to be beaten, with the exception of Shield damage (which is only potent on ~15% of the cast). That's why the meta is mostly developed around the Rock-Paper-Scissors format and conditioning opponents based on it (if you're too scared to shield, I can attack you all day).

The reason why characters with throw follow-ups are so strong is because they're the most reliable method to set up combos and kill set-ups. For example, If Luigi didn't have his D-throw, he would only have N-air to start combos with, and they would be incredibly short. Diddy has the "hoo hah" (I hate this term btw), which is his most reliable method to get a combo going because otherwise all he has is D-tilt and U-tilt to pop people in the air, and that kind of sucks because it doesn't work until mid-percents.

It just seems like the developers believed reliable reward from grabs would be the best way to legitimately scare players from shielding. Can't say they were wrong.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Are you sure? I was using it yesterday and could not get it to sweet spot out of a dash once.

Positive. You just reset the stick back to neutral during a dash, and return it forward very quickly before mashing the B button. The timing is tight, but it can be done.

I did it a few times on the 3DS version right after you mentioned this to me. I imagine it will be easier to do on the Wii U.

 

[Radical Larry]

So, let me give you a few things to talk about once more about this guy, in all seriousness:

1) So I've managed to test it, and will confirm that Ganondorf's D-Throw > Wizard's Foot is a true combo. I'm not talking about the Wizard's Dropkick custom, I'm talking about vanilla WizKick. This combo can be used from 2-3 times depending on character weight, damage and if rage is on, as well as DI.

2) With rage implemented, Ganondorf can one-hit KO opponents from 0% by sending them flying the opposite direction he hit them in with Warlock Punch; of course, rage would have to be massive, plus the character would need to be around the edge, and it may not work on super heavyweights, like Ganondorf himself.

Just two things I need to point out that I've indeed tested. I'm going to try testing something so crazy it may just work.

 

[deepseadiva]

Answer? I dunno about that, Diddy's f-air can snipe her and wall her pretty well. But if you know something I don't about her tools, do share.

I think Wario is a more interesting answer, being able to eat banana and peanuts and answer his Monkey Flip command grab with Bite command grab (beats it, though not the attack kick)

I cannot say 's aerials aren't overwhelmed by Diddy's ridiculous ones. But walls aren't perfect. If Diddy had time to pull out a banana, Peach had time to pull out a turnip. Which mitigates the situation a bit. And again, if the Peach can spot an error in Diddy's wall, fair is absolutely the perfect stock ending punish any character would want.

Wario is interesting. Question though: if Wario eats a banana, can Diddy just pull out another? The perfect tools versus banana is definitely Gravi Pull and Pocket. Moves that straight up steal the banana and give it to you. But I guess making it disappear is good - if not great. And an easy answer to Monkey Flip is sexy. :O

 

[Antonykun]

Partially.

Shield as a whole is balanced since it's automatically beaten by grab, and knocking your opponent in the air. Without grabs, there is no way for Shield to be beaten, with the exception of Shield damage (which is only potent on ~15% of the cast). That's why the meta is mostly developed around the Rock-Paper-Scissors format and conditioning opponents based on it (if you're too scared to shield, I can attack you all day).

The reason why characters with throw follow-ups are so strong is because they're the most reliable method to set up combos and kill set-ups. For example, If Luigi didn't have his D-throw, he would only have N-air to start combos with, and they would be incredibly short. Diddy has the "hoo hah" (I hate this term btw), which is his most reliable method to get a combo going because otherwise all he has is D-tilt and U-tilt to pop people in the air, and that kind of sucks because it doesn't work until mid-percents.

It just seems like the developers believed reliable reward from grabs would be the best way to legitimately scare players from shielding. Can't say they were wrong.

An annoying thing is that a lot of not top tiers get little off a throw or others have awful grabs and that might be a huge reason why the top tiers are who they are.

 

[Pyr]

I cannot say 's aerials aren't overwhelmed by Diddy's ridiculous ones. But walls aren't perfect. If Diddy had time to pull out a banana, Peach had time to pull out a turnip. Which mitigates the situation a bit. And again, if the Peach can spot an error in Diddy's wall, fair is absolutely the perfect stock ending punish any character would want.

Not discounting the FAir, because I know the awesomeness that is Peach's FAir. The bigger issue I see is getting Diddy to the point where FAir starts killing without it becoming stale. Can she get in to rack up the damage required for this without dying in the process? She's got Turnips, and turnips are really, really good. But Diddy has a Banana.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not discounting the FAir, because I know the awesomeness that is Peach's FAir. The bigger issue I see is getting Diddy to the point where FAir starts killing without it becoming stale. Can she get in to rack up the damage required for this without dying in the process? She's got Turnips, and turnips are really, really good. But Diddy has a Banana.

Well, I'd rather eat a banana than a turnip. In the literal sense, anyway.

Can Peach reliably bait something from Diddy by floating around and then punish?