Character Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

The fact that Meta Knight can actually get away with the super scrub tactic of "roll, down smash" is kind of amazing to me.

 

[NairWizard]

Has everyone seen this? ESAM talks about Heavy Skull Bash and why he thinks it makes custom Pikachu the best character in the game.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3065l7/the_reason_heavy_skull_bash_issilly_by_esam/

Alright, so, I spent a ton of time yesterday after work labbing with this custom, and I have to say that after 6+ hours of testing (exclusively this move and setups into this move; 6 hours is a long time to test just one move) against CPUs and people, I have to agree that ESAM is right at least that Heavy Skull Bash is kind of silly on a character like Pikachu. It's not HSB that's the problem, though--the move would be fine on another character like Zelda because Zelda doesn't have the ability to create pressure situations. The problem is that the move is on Pikachu, who has Quick Attack and autocanceling/fast aerials and high ground speed, in addition to one of the smallest hurtboxes in the game. All of that combined enables him to get from any point A to any (grounded) point B faster than any other character, even Sonic--whether that's the ledge, the body of the stage, or a platform. With a character who can move around that fast and thus unpredictably, a move with bonkers KO power is probably a little overpowered.

What's interesting about this move is that I don't have to set up situations where it works, it just works in situations that Pikachu already sets up naturally. Pikachu makes airdodging or aerialing seem really appealing, especially when he is putting pressure on you with Quick Attack.

This is something like (though not on the same scale of) giving a character like Sheik Ness' or Sonic's b-throw. Sheik creates situations over and over again where shielding seems like the best option; she conditions you into pulling out that shield so that she can get a grab. Imagine if she could actually capitalize on that grab and b-throw you for the kill at high percents. Heavy Skull Bash creates a situation that's much like this; Pikachu makes several characters airdodge or throw out a preventive aerial.

The move is less potent on stages with platforms than on stages without, because the opponent has a few more landing options other than aerial, airdodge, land, or jump away (the first 3 all get hit by a well-timed HSB, the last one doesn't)... or so you would think. I was able to edge-cancel Quick Attack into Heavy Skull Bash KOs at 50% on Lylat and Battlefield consistently against real players who know how to DI and were prepared for the move. I managed to get it off of up-air and b-air strings at the ledge and tips of platforms. Because of Pikachu's fallspeed, I even got it by airdodging my opponent's aerial, fastfalling, then charging, a potent mixup when platforms are involved.

Quick Feet, one of Pikachu's custom up-bs, actually true combos into Heavy Skull Bash at certain percents, and it also has enough hitstun that throwing out a move or airdodging is very appealing against it.

Overall, Heavy Skull Bash is somewhat like Counter Timber, in that it fits naturally into its character's playstyle (Villager already wants to set up traps; CT only helps him do it better), only in addition to fitting naturally it also is a patch to one of Pikachu's biggest issues (getting KOs without Rage).

What does this say about customs? I don't really care. Let's have that debate elsewhere. All I know is, this move is crazy, and I don't know how I missed all of its uses before. Other Pikachu mains should be using it, or trying to use it as much as possible.



On the topic of MK, people have touched on this already, but the only thing holding him back is approaching. You don't have the tools to approach characters like Sheik as MK if Sheik is aware of your ground mixups. SH aerials, a good d-tilt (or a better d-tilt), a projectile... there are many solutions to this, but MK has access to none of them.

I still think that's he Top Tier, but the bottom of it.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The question we should ask ourselves: Is this the kind of game we want to play and watch?

I feel as though the Customs-on metagame is an exciting and entertaining metagame that is well worth its merits, despite some of the drawbacks that come with it. However, I also feel as though more moderation is required in order for the metagame to stay healthy and entertaining, especially if it is to run along-side with the Customs-off metagame of Smash 4.

One is not better than the other. It's kind of like a trade honestly. You remove some problems going from one metagame to the other, but you also remove some benefits going from one metagame to another as well. The only difference is that the Customs-on metagame has a lot more variety in the options that players can choose, which also includes how many additional variables top players will have in regards to influencing the Customs-on metagame as a whole. Such as what sets are the "best", sets that counter other sets, and if any specific custom moves need to be banned or not.

The serious problems that affect the Customs-on metagame are logistics, misinformation, and getting people to agree on things specifically related to the customs (specific sets/"broken" custom moves). And until a few of those things are solved, be that via by experience/game patches/people agreeing with eachother, the Customs-on metagame is probably going to continue to be a bumpy ride for a while.


That being said, I personally like the Customs-on metagame more, since I find it to be more entertaining overall. Though there are definitely issues to it currently, and how some customs leave a sour taste in my mouth on an otherwise (mostly) pleasant experience.

 

[S_B]

The question we should ask ourselves: Is this the kind of game we want to play and watch?

A game that has more than just Diddy, Shiek and maybe Rosalina in it?

A billion times, yes.

 

[Locke 06]

A game that has more than just Diddy, Shiek and maybe Rosalina in it?

A billion times, yes.

I give up.

 

[Radical Larry]

I feel like Wizard's Dropkick is overrated for true combos, since you can just as easily do it with his Wizard's Foot in a D-Throw > D-Spec combo. You also get more damage and can often do it three times on a character, and even in rage on some.

 

[DavemanCozy]

My biggest concern is a community split in the future. You might think it won't be a problem if the community splits, but it will be. How will majors run, for example?

We don't need to decide on the future of custom moves right now. But as we continue to explore what they have to offer, we need to keep an eye out of how the game will play, and most importantly, we need to ask questions such as these:
1) Is watching and playing customs on entertaining?
2) is the game truly better? Or does it degenerate to unreasonable to deal with moves??

I agree this isn't the time nor place for this, this is just some food for thought.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

In regards to Heavy Skull Bash, my limited testing of the move made me realize if it didn't have the same properties of Smashing the move similar to the regular version of Skull Bash, it would be slightly less troublesome to deal with.

Not by much, of course. It is still especially strong on a character like Pikachu. But if the Smashing property was removed, it would make the move more telegraphed, and have a weaker initial hit (going from 15% to like 6% or 9% iirc with less knockback).

As it stands, Pikachu can just Smash HSB whenever he wants. Which not only reduces the move's charge time, but makes it more unpredictable and he can throw out a relatively high base knockback move that deals 15% and is faster than his Fsmash.


The move isn't just good for its KO potential, it is also good for tacking on damage and putting your opponent into a bad position as well. Pikachu loves opponents who are off of the stage.

 

[Minordeth]

My anaology for customs on vs off is like this:

Customs off:Street Fighter::Customs on:Guilty Gear.

 

[Nobie]

People argue that Diddy usage will decline if customs are on, but I'm not so sure.

Imagine a world where some tournaments are customs on, some are customs off (what a crazy place that would be, huh!!!). You're a skilled player who likes to go to as many tournaments as you can, but you don't have a lot of time to practice. Who works well in a customs off environment? Diddy Kong. Who works well as a default character in a customs on environment? Diddy Kong.

 

[Minordeth]

I'll also agree with Thinkaman here, and say Rest is, by far, the jankiest thing in any Smash game. People must forget that Hungrybox is a player that exists. HSB is powerful, for sure, but the lag, the precise sweetspot, and set-up requirement make it a somewhat less janky Rest.

If people can think Melee, with it's janky AT dependence, and jank moves, is exciting, I see no reason why the average viewer wouldn't think Customs Sm4sh would be any less.

 

[PUK]

People argue that Diddy usage will decline if customs are on, but I'm not so sure.

Imagine a world where some tournaments are customs on, some are customs off (what a crazy place that would be, huh!!!). You're a skilled player who likes to go to as many tournaments as you can, but you don't have a lot of time to practice. Who works well in a customs off environment? Diddy Kong. Who works well as a default character in a customs on environment? Diddy Kong.

Usually if you don't have a lot of time to practice you don't put too much importance in winning , and just play the character you like the most.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

People argue that Diddy usage will decline if customs are on, but I'm not so sure.

Imagine a world where some tournaments are customs on, some are customs off (what a crazy place that would be, huh!!!). You're a skilled player who likes to go to as many tournaments as you can, but you don't have a lot of time to practice. Who works well in a customs off environment? Diddy Kong. Who works well as a default character in a customs on environment? Diddy Kong.

Custom moves, I feel, won't really do much to impact the amount of Diddy Kongs in tournaments. Since Diddy still has a lot of untapped potential, and he is extremely easy to play and be successful with.

What custom moves do, however, is affect how well another character is able to contest Diddy in a match.

Whether or not this is a good or bad thing, however, is left up for debate.

 

[Nobie]

Usually if you don't have a lot of time to practice you don't put too much importance in winning , and just play the character you like the most.

What I should have said is that you're unsure of how to divide your practice time between customs on and customs off.

 

[S_B]

If people can think Melee, with it's janky AT dependence, and jank moves, is exciting, I see no reason why the average viewer wouldn't think Customs Sm4sh would be any less.

...Which is why the entire discussion is borderline insane.

When clones were revealed in SSB4, were players crying "WTF?!? NOW I HAVE TO LEARN TO FIGHT TWO VERSIONS OF PIT?!"

Customs are basically adding additional clones to the game. Hell, Mario and Luigi in SSB64 WERE clones with different customs.

My biggest concern is a community split in the future. You might think it won't be a problem if the community splits, but it will be. How will majors run, for example?

If Project M didn't kill melee, this won't kill SSB4.

In a few months, everyone will be laughing about how dumb people were for chicken littling over customs...

I give up.

What? It's not like SSB4's meta is a veritable cornucopia of variety or anything...

 

[ZarroTsu]

IDK why people think customs will magically botch everything ever. You can still opt to not use customs. You can still hold non-custom tournaments. Nobody says, or should able be able to tell you that you can't.

Why do people act like that's a scary thing? You can have two games and play both.

 

[Pyr]

If Project M didn't kill melee, this won't kill SSB4.

In a few months, everyone will be laughing about how dumb people were for chicken littling over customs...

Although there wasn't much to kill off, B+, B-, BB, and P:M all effectively killed Brawl. Brawl is a much better example because P:M was developed from it like a customs meta is being developed for S4. The effects of customs will be big long term. The exact effects, though, are unknown.

And people aren't being dumb. I've come to think that the real issue is less that a move is powerful or useful and more that you start fighting the move, not the character. That's the concern. A move could become so polarizing that you fight that move instead of the character itself, and that's a very bad thing for a competitive game.

What? It's not like SSB4's meta is a veritable cornucopia of variety or anything...

To be fair, custom's or not, we still have the largest viability list for S4 then any of the other games had. As far as I can tell, the gap between worst and best isn't a large gap in this game. The gap between top and high isn't too big, either.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's unfortunate people believe only Diddy/Sheik are winning tournaments because that's all they see on a stream.

 

[S_B]

Although there wasn't much to kill off, B+, B-, BB, and P:M all effectively killed Brawl. Brawl is a much better example because P:M was developed from it like a customs meta is being developed for S4. The effects of customs will be big long term. The exact effects, though, are unknown.

Brawl was garbage for balance, though. The gap between highest and lowest tiers was ridiculous, just like how it would've been in Melee without the advent of wavedashing, and even then, melee only has 8-9 viables (which is pretty good for a SSB game).

And people aren't being dumb. I've come to think that the real issue is less that a move is powerful or useful and more that you start fighting the move, not the character. That's the concern. A move could become so polarizing that you fight that move instead of the character itself, and that's a very bad thing for a competitive game.

What move classifies as such a thing?

I'd give more credence to this argument if customs allowed you to swap out EVERYTHING a character has: grab, A moves, jump height, etc., but that's not what we're looking at here (yeah, you can do some of that with equipment but that will NEVER be tournament legal).

To be fair, custom's or not, we still have the largest viability list for S4 then any of the other games had. As far as I can tell, the gap between worst and best isn't a large gap in this game. The gap between top and high isn't too big, either.

True, and I'll be the first to admit that the meta is still young, but even with customs, I don't think we'll see it change much from the way it's developing now.

I like that there are people trying to bring other characters into the fold and they break top 8 but the big tournaments are still generally taken by the top tier.

It's unfortunate people believe only Diddy/Sheik are winning tournaments because that's all they see on a stream.

Two things...

1. No one has said anything to that effect (at least not me). I've said numerous times that I'm bored of watching Diddy fight himself because there are a crapload of Diddy players out there.

2. What major tournaments are being won by characters out of the top tier (or suggested tiers)? I go HUNTING for upsets in tournaments where a lower tier character wins but I seldom find them and I definitely don't see them upsetting in MAJOR tournaments which are what most people are focused on because that's where the best players in the world congregate.

Let me put it this way, if even Yoshi or Wario, characters that people THINK are good but can't seem to take tournies, takes Evo, I'll vomit rainbows from happiness.

EDIT: For example, here's a Bowser winning grand finals in a tourney from Spain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L4BFIv6F0I
...but seeing as how it's not an Evo or an Apex, I don't think anyone is going to insist Bowser be pushed up the tier list.

 

[DavemanCozy]

And people aren't being dumb. I've come to think that the real issue is less that a move is powerful or useful and more that you start fighting the move, not the character. That's the concern. A move could become so polarizing that you fight that move instead of the character itself, and that's a very bad thing for a competitive game.

This is exactly the kind of thing which I refer to when I say degenerate gameplay.

Sure, they may be ways to get around it. There were also ways if dealing with Meta Knight's tornado in Brawl, but that didn't change the fact of how dumb that move was.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Bowser's the reason we don't run three stock. Too many options to bowsercide. /s

 

[Timbers]

I also cited ZSS' stun laser as an example and, TBH, I don't see anyone flying off the handle about bananas anywhere NEAR how much salt we've seen over villager's customs (or customs in general).

In fact, the custom backlash from tournament players is mind boggling, given that default Diddy is still winning most tournaments. Yet, we're seeing buckets of salt as if custom characters were camping out every single match and winning every tournament...

ZSS stungun woes fall on deaf ears. It's not anywhere on the level of banana/needles as far as projectiles are concerned. Banana gives Diddy one of the best oos options in the game that racks up a 20-30% punish. You're seriously trying to compare apples to oranges. Bananas do not allow Diddy to STALL THE GAME. People hate Diddy (and his bananas) because he's a good, easy character. People hate customs villager because they fear that he will turn every match into a 5-8min (depending on timer) ledgestall fest. Villager doesn't even have to be as good of a character as Diddy to become the most hated character, if all he will do is ledgestall (hypothetically speaking).

 

[Quickhero]

Bowser's the reason we don't run three stock. Too many options to bowsercide. /s

Please tell me how you land Koopa Klaw and manage to commit suicide with it. I wouldn't run Dash Slash over it all the time if you could tell me because Bowser would legit be hella good without customs if you can hit the move.

Sarcasm aside, yeah that's not the reason at all. Nobody even thinks about suicide moves when deciding 3 stocks. As a matter of fact, many people for 3 stocks (which I'm for btw) use the fact that it nerfs the impact of SDing less powerful, as when someone SDs it mitigates the severity of that happening in a match by at least a little bit. Obviously both players committing suicide isn't the same thing, but the point still stands that Bowsercide benefits more from less stocks than more.

EDIT: If /s means sarcasm please kill me.

 

[Judo777]

I'm still not quite convinced. Perhaps against some opponents who have really good recovery it takes longer, but there's a lot of characters that Sheik can edgeguard quite competently, and thus a Bouncing Fish offstage isn't the only method of getting a kill. Perhaps vs Diddy / Sonic / Pika it often takes around 150-170, but we're talking about Sheik's viability vs the entire cast, not just the top tier.

Also, it's quite possible that Sheik is taking that long to kill simply because she can. There's nothing stopping you as a Sheik player from going for a USmash read around 110%, like how many other characters try to get their kills, Sheik just has better and safer options so she doesn't have to "gamble" that way. I'm not quite sure that constitutes "trouble killing".



Are you only considering the highest placing? While a Rosa player did outplace every Sheik at Apex, Sheiks got 3rd and 5th, and there was a third Sheik in top 16. I would consider this a better placing than what Rosalina achieved, even though a single Rosa finished 2nd.

Few things wrong with this, firstly NO viability against the entire cast is not what is important. Viability against the best characters are what matters much more. King Dedede murdered well over half of the cast in Brawl, he was still B-C tier because he had awful MU's with the top tiers. It doesn't matter if you can reliably kill Ganondorf at 40% if you see one every 7 tournaments.

Firstly, I'm not even sure Usmash kills at 110% lol. Secondly tipper Usmash's hitbox is extremely small and hard to land (very few characters can be hit with it standing. So you're opponent has to be in a very specific spot to be hit). And side hit usmash kills at like 150+

Sheik is also the most heavily punished character in the game for gambling because of her weight kill power ratio being the worst in the game. Sheik players don't gamble often because they can't afford to.

Sheik's edge guarding game is pretty good don't get me wrong, unfortunately good players will eventually stop getting gimped near as often, especially due to bair being our only viable aerial for gimping thanks to the fair nerf (fair is incapable of gimping Mario, so anyone with longer recovery than Mario can't be gimped by it, unless they DI like garbage). And bair actually hits the opponent slightly up as well. It can gimp people but its not ideal and your opponent needs to recover low for it to be effective.

I was simply saying, you are saying that other members of the cast aren't viable when Rosalina and Sonic have better results than Sheik at large scale tournaments. Not to mention the Sheik that placed highest at Apex was Mr. R (arguably one of the best players in the world, and was probably the closest thing to the literal definition of an outlier in brawl).

 

[HeroMystic]

2. What major tournaments are being won by characters out of the top tier (or suggested tiers)? I go HUNTING for upsets in tournaments where a lower tier character wins but I seldom find them and I definitely don't see them upsetting in MAJOR tournaments which are what most people are focused on because that's where the best players in the world congregate.

It's even more unfortunate that people only want to pay attention to majors, when what's on stream are usually weeklies and monthlies.

Our Monthlies had AeroLink(Diddy) vs Epsy(Little Mac), and at TGC, which is basically a regional since people from out of state went here, had a Fox player winning the whole thing, and that ended up being a Fox vs Ness Grand Finals.

Did we forget that TCU had Ally(Mario) vs Will(Donkey Kong) months ago? That isn't an old thing either. Super recently (literally just a few days ago), Ally won a tournament and the Grand Finals match was Mario vs ROB.

Nairo wins tournaments with ZSS, Robin, and Pit. (Admittedly I have heard he recently picked up Diddy though, haven't seen him use it in tournament yet)

Did you guys forget Trela won a tournament with Mii Swordfighter?

Oh, and Seagull Joe and Boss dominates their weeklies and neither of them use Diddy.

Yes, when Majors are in play, there is a lot of players that use Diddy and Sheik. Why? Because they're the best characters in the game, and this does not change with customs. But do you see Top 8 or Top 16 flooded with them? No. That didn't happen in Apex, even with terrible seeding in mind, and that certainly did not happen during any other tournament (except BEAST VI because Europe is weird, but even then a Luigi won that tournament).

 

[Blobface]

Would it be fair to say that every character below 85 weight besides ZSS and Rosa have bad matchups with heavies? It sure seems like it. Almost all of them just get outspaced to 40% and then they die, while the heavies are just laughing as they get up to 150%.

 

[Ffamran]

Would it be fair to say that every character below 85 weight besides ZSS and Rosa have bad matchups with heavies? It sure seems like it. Almost all of them just get outspaced to 40% and then they die, while the heavies are just laughing as they get up to 150%.

Falco would like word. Hits like a light heavyweight, but is a lightweight... Was this what Fox was in Melee?

 

[HeroMystic]

Falco would like word. Hits like a light heavyweight, but is a lightweight... Was this what Fox was in Melee?

Fox was more like a glass cannon in Melee.

 

[Ffamran]

Fox was more like a glass cannon in Melee.

Isn't that the definition of a lightweight hitting like a heavyweight?

 

[ZarroTsu]

EDIT: If /s means sarcasm please kill me.

Omae wa mou shindeiru.

So I caught esam's attention on Reddit:

(Link was http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSB4-Wii_U) )

Don't quote me on the "presumably half" part. I don't know exactly how much inputting as a smash charges Skull Bash, but half seems about right, being between 6 and 31 percent.

 

[HeroMystic]

Isn't that the definition of a lightweight hitting like a heavyweight?

I'd personally place that to Melee Jiggs.

 

[PUK]

Would it be fair to say that every character below 85 weight besides ZSS and Rosa have bad matchups with heavies? It sure seems like it. Almost all of them just get outspaced to 40% and then they die, while the heavies are just laughing as they get up to 150%.

Wii fit trainer laugh, she can finally throw a move and be pretty sure it will hit. And it hit hard.
And you just can't survive against zelda past 100%, even if you are bowser. At this point it's a kill option fest.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Would it be fair to say that every character below 85 weight besides ZSS and Rosa have bad matchups with heavies? It sure seems like it. Almost all of them just get outspaced to 40% and then they die, while the heavies are just laughing as they get up to 150%.

Related question: How many of those lightweights have range comparable to ZSS/Rosalina?

 

[David Viran]

In regards to Heavy Skull Bash, my limited testing of the move made me realize if it didn't have the same properties of Smashing the move similar to the regular version of Skull Bash, it would be slightly less troublesome to deal with.

Not by much, of course. It is still especially strong on a character like Pikachu. But if the Smashing property was removed, it would make the move more telegraphed, and have a weaker initial hit (going from 15% to like 6% or 9% iirc with less knockback).

As it stands, Pikachu can just Smash HSB whenever he wants. Which not only reduces the move's charge time, but makes it more unpredictable and he can throw out a relatively high base knockback move that deals 15% and is faster than his Fsmash.


The move isn't just good for its KO potential, it is also good for tacking on damage and putting your opponent into a bad position as well. Pikachu loves opponents who are off of the stage.

Doesn't it have like some weird thing where it never sweet spots out of dash or if you are holding the direction before using it?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Doesn't it have like some weird thing where it never sweet spots out of dash or if you are holding the direction before using it?

Nope. Just a bit more difficult to time.

And even if it did, you can negate this property by short-hopping, and canceling the vertical momentum of your jump with HSB.

 

[S_B]

It's even more unfortunate that people only want to pay attention to majors, when what's on stream are usually weeklies and monthlies.=

Well, majors are where the best players in the world come together so they're technically the best indicators of where characters are.

And I'm well aware that customs aren't going to shake that up enough to dethrone the current A-tier, but at the very least, they give us SOMETHING to work with that might serve to cause some degree of shake up, and I'd take that over no shake up.

The sad part is that, if Sakurai gave a crap, we'd have seen more balance patches by now that toned these characters down somewhat and this wouldn't even begin to be an issue... :\

 

[Ffamran]

Related question: How many of those lightweights have range comparable to ZSS/Rosalina?

Rosalina? She's a lightweight, right?

 

[S_B]

Would it be fair to say that every character below 85 weight besides ZSS and Rosa have bad matchups with heavies? It sure seems like it. Almost all of them just get outspaced to 40% and then they die, while the heavies are just laughing as they get up to 150%.

Have a weight chart handy?

Though I'm pretty sure Pika and Sonic both destroy heavies and I'm assuming they're below 85.

 

[Pyr]

The sad part is that, if Sakurai gave a crap, we'd have seen more balance patches by now that toned these characters down somewhat and this wouldn't even begin to be an issue... :\

Would just like to say that constant balance patches have the potential to harm a game more then help it. The only company I've seen get it right in both quality and frequency is Capcom.

 

[S_B]

Would just like to say that constant balance patches have the potential to harm a game more then help it. The only company I've seen get it right in both quality and frequency is Capcom.

Have any of the balance patches we've seen thus far been bad for the game? (aside from bugging out Bowser's klaw)