Character Competitive Impressions

[HeroMystic]

Link isn't working for me. Is it supposed to lead to http://a-social-in-need-of-new-phantom-ours-went-on-strike.344739/page-743#post-18807885?

I fixed the link.

 

[Ffamran]

There's always the alternative of banning any remotely good Specials - default and custom. For example, Falco would end up with Burst Blaster, Falco Charge, Fire Bird, and Accele-Reflector. With this set, he loses any ability to cause hitstun from afar and potentially gimp someone as Blaster would do and he loses the ability to edgeguard with Explosive Blaster; Falco Charge is essentially another Side Smash that's weaker, has a worse late hit, is telegraphed, and worsens his recovery even more since it travels less than Phantasm and he also loses the ability to spike someone with Phantasm or I-frame dash with Phase along with losing a burst movement; Fire Bird is the middle of the road where he won't have a burst movement through Fast Fire Bird and have some extra distance with Distant Fire Bird; Accele-Reflector makes it so that reflected projectiles travel faster, but the cost is he loses default Reflector's spacing ability, speed, damage, and full hitbox along with losing the ability to kill with Reflector Void.

Some characters might end up the same, but they're at their lowest points. So, let's start making our characters even *******.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Now on the other side of things... this thread... ugh.

We're getting past the whole "talking about characters, learning about the game" (+ interpreting tournament results) and more so for lack of a better word: cancer.
I think it's fair for people to start building their arguments for what's going to be happening in the future after Evo. But no one should be truly supportive of one meta over the other before time has passed.

Is it possible for us to curve back to somewhere at least semi-neutral? Something new and exciting or abusive and shallow, however you spin it, we can all still talk about it without stabbing each other in the groin. And if the random immature pop-in from someone who is highly regarded needs to be dealt with, better leave it to me/mods rather than digging a deeper pit.



They can't be the extremes of the same spectrum without both being incredibly stupid and painful most of the time. I'm mildly defending Joe because it's 1v100 (on smashboards at least), and 99 of those are just as bad if not worse.

"Next, and lastly"
Because that's the neutral stance to take in it and the reasons for that stance seem pretty logical from my point of view. Hit confirms into kill specials is a lot more prevalent with customs on than what we've seen with customs off in it's first half year. Do you need me to say more/go on?

Take away the subjective or the emotion and look at something. Then question why that subjective perspective exists and relate to it.

What's the problem with hit confirms into kill moves?

 

[Shaya]

What's the problem with hit confirms into kill moves?

When did I ever say it was a problem?
Never.

It does create a contrast to the customs-off metagame. People don't like change, but you can't really blame people for having a preference.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

When did I ever say it was a problem?
Never.

You're ranting about why customs are bad the last point you make is the increase kill set ups. Maybe I took what you said wrong though.

 

[Neoleo21]

You're ranting about why customs are bad the last point you make is the increase kill set ups. Maybe I took what you said wrong though.

He never said that it was bad, just that it was different from the vanilla game. Some people prefer this game with a lot of weird stuff like myself and others may not like Seagull Joe.

 

[deepseadiva]

Someone asked me for my latest tier impressions, so I thought I'd post it here. Not many changes (several tiny shifts), though I am putting Diddy above Sheik. (I still think they are roughly equal--I'm just choosing to defer to the majority opinion rather than grandstand.)

Also finally letting customs Zelda move up a tier, though remaining the worst character in the game. Phantom Strike punishing air dodges is what pushed me over the edge.

1v1, no customs, ordered within each level:








1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above:






Moves up 4 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 2 tiers relative to a no-customs list:
Moves up 1 tier relative to a no-customs list:

I love how Brawler and the other ones suddenly exist in the second list. And I appreciate the bigger tiers customs bring. Sad to see Mac so low, but he's definitely a good face for bottom tier in Sm4sh, ie "characters that are pretty bad, but you can use them in certain situations." I really do love this game and the future of it is absolutely SPARKLINGLY BRIGHT.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've fought against custom Sonic a lot. Sonic remains a top tier character and both of his side customs are pretty awesome, but they really aren't unfair in any way. Hammer Spin Dash still loses to the "hit Sonic out of it" strategy, and of course, it can only ground you if he hits you on his way down if you're grounded. Burning Spin Dash is a lot less flexible of a movement/pressure option in exchange for a lot of damage and the ability to plow through some projectiles. I feel like a lot of the Sonic hate is misplaced; you have to play a different game when Sonic is involved, but that different game is really fun and really interesting. Customs only enhance this in my opinion.

I'm sorry Shaya, but I just don't agree with your assessment of customs promoting killing at 60%. You pretty much only die at 60% if your opponent makes a really huge read (like Shulk in Shield or Smash using Power Vision against one of your smashes) or if you make bad decisions like taking Mii Brawler to Smashville and then going out on that platform so close to the blast zone. This sort of bad decision making also happens without customs; people do foolish things like chase Sonic to near a walk-off and get back thrown and die at any percent or people let Diddy or Rosalina grab them on high platforms which can only happen if you don't consider it an urgent problem to avoid those situations. Certainly customs add a variety of excellent kill moves, but kill at 60% is hyperbole if all of the players are passably well informed and make decent decisions. I challenge anyone to find a stream archive of this game, customs on or off, in which between losers/winners/grand finals half of the stocks or more are taken at under 70%. That's just not how things go, and I do not believe they are more likely to happen that way in the future either.

I also think that the way that the game is way more balanced with customs on is about more than Diddy. Like Diddy is a really relevant factor, but even if Diddy didn't exist, the customs on game would still be a lot more balanced than the customs off game both because the inverse relation between general character quality and power of customs is pretty strong (characters like Wii Fit Trainer get to be viable; that's a lot of help) and more importantly because everyone having better options just makes match-ups tend toward being more even. When everyone has options, the game is more dynamic and you can respond to more situations. When options are more limited, that's when you get the situations where someone just gets locked out and you see your awful match-ups.

For the most extreme case, consider what @ Ffamran said in jest except take it seriously. Let's say Falco were compelled to run 3312 in tournament but everyone else were compelled to run their single worst custom load-out as well. As Rosalina, I think my worst would be 3132. Imagine if we had to fight each other, super bad Falco vs super bad Rosalina. Sure my ability to deploy Luma and control remote space goes to about zero with those awful Rosalina customs, but with those awful Falco customs, his ability to get past a basic "zone with normals" game from Rosa is going to go way down (he loses everything he had on the B button that might have helped!) and that's going to make that match-up awful for Falco in a far more painful way than any benefit Falco might get from the significant nerfs Rosalina faces from those awful customs. In this silly hypothetical metagame, we might expect match-ups like this to happen a lot, things getting lopsided just because one side's option pool is just too dry.

I can't deny that preference is preference, but at that point, you're moving into the subjective. No doubt some people (by most evidence about 20% of players) just find customs off more fun. That's fine; I spent years finding Brawl a lot more fun and generally "better" than Melee so I'm not really in a position to tell people that not believing what the majority believes makes them wrong. I think the important thing is that we remain respectful of objective truth (claims like "customs are broken" are, with our current evidence, objectively wrong), remain understanding of subjective preference, and we all do the best we can do to promote whichever very specific game it is that we love. Smash 4 with customs in the game I play and the game I love. I'm here to help that game and to promote it however I can. Definitely I would prefer to avoid bad arguments and to focus on building the meta; a good starting point might be, to directly address what Shaya is saying, figuring out what average kill percents actually are in customs on and customs off and seeing how it actually varies character to character. That would be really interesting actually, and having a discussion with numbers might make it a lot more enjoyable for everyone.

 

[Strangelove13]

When did I ever say it was a problem?
Never.

It does create a contrast to the customs-off metagame. People don't like change, but you can't really blame people for having a preference.

I completely agree that everyone has their own preference, and you can't really fault people for trying to play what they think is the funnest. However, the problem I personally have is that people are not really having a discussion.

Shaya, in your couple of posts I have seen the best argument I have ever read against customs and it's because you actually took your time to make a well thought out post and to cordially argument for it in your next posts without resorting to insulting, badgering, or name calling. That is what I think has been missing from these last few days.

We have seen many people just throw out couple of word posts with words in them like "overpowered" "jank" and "broken" in the last few days without anyone actually providing a well thought out reason as to why it is so.

I just wish some of these posts were actually more well thought out of such as yours, so we could actually have a good discussion, and I think if both sides actually took a moment to calm down and have a healthy discussion things would be a lot more productive.

Also, the assumption that pro players are against custom moves, and that the spectators and "couch warriors" are trying to force the game to turn into something they don't want makes me quite sad(not attributing this thought to you Shaya, just a general thing I have seen). I have seen plenty of pro players arguing FOR custom moves even before EVO had them legal, and I see a lot more now, especially in regions that have had it legal for longer such as NY and Dallas. I don't think we can say that either the PRO or the AGAINST are the majority(we also have a large amount of smashers that fall into the NEUTRAL category) and I personally think that arguing which side is right based on being the majority is unproductive.

I have to agree with what Amazing Ampharos wrote above but I think that the fact that we can have this discussion with civility, with both sides taking their time to make well thought out posts, and actually take the time to try to understand each other's view points a huge step forward.

I also realize that I may not have the experience or clout as the pro players who have been out there for years like Seagull Joe, but I do think it is worth listening to the voices of people out there such as myself if they present a well thought out argument and bring something worthwhile to the table as I hope I have provided.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I completely agree that everyone has their own preference, and you can't really fault people for trying to play what they think is the funnest. However, the problem I personally have is that people are not really having a discussion.

Shaya, in your couple of posts I have seen the best argument I have ever read against customs and it's because you actually took your time to make a well thought out post and to cordially argument for it in your next posts without resorting to insulting, badgering, or name calling. That is what I think has been missing from these last few days.

We have seen many people just throw out couple of word posts with words in them like "overpowered" "jank" and "broken" in the last few days without anyone actually providing a well thought out reason as to why it is so.

I just wish some of these posts were actually more well thought out of such as yours, so we could actually have a good discussion, and I think if both sides actually took a moment to calm down and have a healthy discussion things would be a lot more productive.

Also, the assumption that pro players are against custom moves, and that the spectators and "couch warriors" are trying to force the game to turn into something they don't want makes me quite sad(not attributing this thought to you Shaya, just a general thing I have seen). I have seen plenty of pro players arguing FOR custom moves even before EVO had them legal, and I see a lot more now, especially in regions that have had it legal for longer such as NY and Dallas. I don't think we can say that either the PRO or the AGAINST are the majority(we also have a large amount of smashers that fall into the NEUTRAL category) and I personally think that arguing which side is right based on being the majority is unproductive.

I have to agree with what Amazing Ampharos wrote above but I think that the fact that we can have this discussion with civility, with both sides taking their time to make well thought out posts, and actually take the time to try to understand each other's view points a huge step forward.

I also realize that I may not have the experience or clout as the pro players who have been out there for years like Seagull Joe, but I do think it is worth listening to the voices of people out there such as myself if they present a well thought out argument and bring something worthwhile to the table as I hope I have provided.

I heard the strange love jokes.....I'm not amused. ........

 

[Bjurrse]

Its sad that people are so quick to scream OP! Anyone remember little mac? Do we really want salty experiences to shape the balance of the game?

What scared me more than ESAMs skullbashes, was the amount of diddys in that tournament.

If people seriously whine so much about customs, when that hairy screamer is in almost every game, I don't know what to make of it.

I really hope that customs work out, and we don't ban moves without enough playtesting.

Should something absolutely broken show up, we deal with it when it arises.

 

[Shaya]

I for the foremost just argue for the opposite side, back home I'm telling anti-customs regions to not be part of the problem. I'm neutral to customs but pro-hyperbole (numbers are magical by default; especially 20% instances that represent the internet rather than the active player base). Reliable burst movement specials with amazing kill power is a saner way to put it; it's definitely not a widespread thing in the customs-off meta.

The meta we want to see developed is imposing on players who despise some of the game play that comes with it. This isn't anywhere close to unanimous though, and it's easy for us to praise the heroes who say it's "fine" (after winning) while degrading those demons who prefer a game we've seen thus far (who are predisposed into believing certain things are "serious problems" from an early and potentially naive look). But either way, it's a problem.

I think majority of us like the way customs meta is going for the most part. The contentious singular customs aren't game-breaking in the traditional sense (YET!), but what's actually best for the game's longevity? As I sway between preferring to be able to use just one character or 3-5 to cover "annoying" custom characters (Falco & Sheik <3, soooooo good) I ultimately still prefer what's best for the stakeholders I believe matter most (Tournament Organisers, Active Players, Media Reception), if there's a way to get the most players going to the most events, everything else is cake.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't buy it.

Yeah, it's different. It's also new. You think we'll still have people dying to Heavy Skull Bash reads at 40% at Evo? You think Extreme Balloon Trip is going to dominate the meta the next time someone pulls it out and fails to do anything significant with it? What we're seeing now are the growing pains from a new meta. This happens. I remember back when everyone thought Mac was the ****. Now he's just... Well, ****.

But you know what's happening, for the most part? Characters are getting tools they desperately need. Characters are gaining the abilities they needed to compete. Falco has mobility, combos, and setups with his customs. Doc becomes the powerhouse he ought to have been from the start. And if the price we have to pay for that is some gimmicky **** that won't work in a week, let alone by the time Evo rolls around, then by all means, let's have it!

 

[ZarroTsu]

I have a stunning idea:

What if, instead of promoting exclusively all customs, or banning specific customs, or banning all customs, we allow, specifically, certain sets of customs, and name them accordingly? Including, if it balances it, the moves that everyone unanimously agree suck?

You would, instead of 12 customs, have 1 (or 2) additional "characters".

For example, take Sheik's Penetrating Needles or Gravity Grenade. Several people agree these two customs basically make Sheik go from S tier to SS tier because they do nothing but improve an already great character. Meanwhile, moves like Gale or Jellyfish are (afaik) considered niche or crap. So, what if instead of allowing a 2211 set and making Sheik SS tier with customs, we only allow a 2222 set? Not explicitly a (all four same numbers) set (although that is a lazy way of putting it), but specificly tailored customs that prevent the setup from being overpowered, and tailor a specific weakness so it isn't "broken"?

Like let's say Kong Cyclone DK is only ever allowed regular DK punch, or Heavy Skullbash is required to run alongside Quick Feet.

Is this a bad idea? Or a balanced idea?

 

[extrasensory]

I have a stunning idea:

What if, instead of promoting exclusively all customs, or banning specific customs, or banning all customs, we allow, specifically, certain sets of customs, and name them accordingly? Including, if it balances it, the moves that everyone unanimously agree suck?

You would, instead of 12 customs, have 1 (or 2) additional "characters".

For example, take Sheik's Penetrating Needles or Gravity Grenade. Several people agree these two customs basically make Sheik go from S tier to SS tier because they do nothing but improve an already great character. Meanwhile, moves like Gale or Jellyfish are (afaik) considered niche or crap. So, what if instead of allowing a 2211 set and making Sheik SS tier with customs, we only allow a 2222 set? Not explicitly a (all four same numbers) set (although that is a lazy way of putting it), but specificly tailored customs that prevent the setup from being overpowered, and tailor a specific weakness so it isn't "broken"?

Like let's say Kong Cyclone DK is only ever allowed regular DK punch, or Heavy Skullbash is required to run alongside Quick Feet.

Is this a bad idea? Or a balanced idea?

too confusing and arbitrary. would be a complete mess trying to figure out what sets are 'appropriate' and explaining all this crap to new players would just alienate them.

 

[|RK|]

.

I agree, and despite being a Kirby main, I don't really mind one way or the other where customs are involved.

We can observe trends, yes. But to make hard, pessimistic calls about an untested meta? I suppose I can understand the emotional view, but I'd prefer a more logically structured argument (much like your post) from those shaping the metagame.

Either way, time will tell what a customs meta really looks like.

 

[ZarroTsu]

too confusing and arbitrary. would be a complete mess trying to figure out what sets are 'appropriate' and explaining all this crap to new players would just alienate them.

As opposed to customs in general </devil's advocate>?

To elaborate, let's wipe all the current sets out of the way for a moment. Let's say Pikachu has one custom set, 2332, and let's call this set "Pichu".

"Pichu" has access to Heavy Skull Bash and Thunder Wave, but loses the recovery and mobility options due to having Quick Feet instead of Quick Attack. He also loses the ability to uthrow-into-thunder as a viable kill string, due to having Thunder Burst instead of Thunder.

Would you still play as "Pichu"? Is "Pichu" overpowered, or underpowered? Where on a hypothetical tier list would "Pichu" be placed?

For players against customs, like @Seagull Joe , is this a character idea you could get behind? Or are customs still dumb even if we made a "Wolf" or "Lucas" set, exclusively?


(Footnote: We give Charizard a Dragon Rush set and name it "Ridley")

 

[extrasensory]

As opposed to customs in general </devil's advocate>?

To elaborate, let's wipe all the current sets out of the way for a moment. Let's say Pikachu has one custom set, 2332, and let's call this set "Pichu".

"Pichu" has access to Heavy Skull Bash and Thunder Wave, but loses the recovery and mobility options due to having Quick Feet instead of Quick Attack. He also loses the ability to uthrow-into-thunder as a viable kill string, due to having Thunder Burst instead of Thunder.

why not meteor quick attack; is meteor quick attack too strong along with quick attack while quick feet is more balanced? is removing pikachu's uthrow into thunder enough to make him into a 'balanced' character when he takes heavy skull bash? can he take distant thunder or is that enough to push him over the edge? what combinations should be allowed if pikachu decides to take a different neutral b custom?

Would you still play as "Pichu"? Is "Pichu" overpowered, or underpowered? Where on a hypothetical tier list would "Pichu" be placed?

all these questions having no answer is the reason why this is a terrible idea. the custom move project is based on which sets people find most useful, while trying to 'balance' everything is a logistical nightmare.

 

[PUK]

We shall not try to balance the game. Currently we have two options
1: playing custom off: it's what we did at the beginning, what we did even now in a lot of places, and it's not balanced. Not a bad choice, but a lot of players, including myself, find it sometimes boring because of Diddy/shiek superiority. Because they invalidate 2/3 of the cast by themself.
2: playing custom on: you are currently trying it, and i don't see anything close to Diddy and shiek. From DK to Zelda, no character besides shiek and Diddy invalidate a large portion of the cast. It's still not balance, as you still have options which enhance your chances before your opponent even picks a character (Diddy, shiek, pikachu), and options which reduce your chances of winning (LM, lucina, etc). It s violent, unforgiving, with gimmick strategie which can troll, and frustrating. But you can go in a tournament with a low tier and if skilled enough, win. And i think that's the most important thing of a fighting game.

 

[S_B]

Take for example. Who would want to challenge him on the ground and get d-throw > u-aired multiple times and take absurd damage or die? No one. The only tactic then becomes to run away and camp.

I wonder how much people would be complaining about Diddy's bananas, for example ("OMG!! IT GIVES HIM A GUARANTEED TRIP!?!"), if they weren't default, or ZSS' stun laser ("HOLY ****!!! SHE CAN JUST STUN YOU AND GETS A FREE SMASH AFTER THAT?!").

But that aside, I think none of this comes close to becoming a legitimate complaint until we see people winning tournaments with this "janky" tactics.

Until then, Diddy, with his ability to force a trip on players, then use that trip to set up one of the most reliable kill setups in the game (if it wasn't reliable, people wouldn't be using him like they do) will remain the king of jank.

 

[Timbers]

But you can go in a tournament with a low tier and if skilled enough, win. And i think that's the most important thing of a fighting game.

Customs do not make this any more of a reality than with customs off. Each meta is going to have its low tier characters. Infact, low tier characters may have a smaller chance at doing well in a customs on environment with the levels of "jank" that many other characters receive from customs. We'll likely have more viable characters in a customs meta, but it's silly to think that a handful of characters won't get left behind.

I wonder how much people would be complaining about Diddy's bananas, for example ("OMG!! IT GIVES HIM A GUARANTEED TRIP!?!"), if they weren't default

how could people possibly complain anymore than they already do about Diddy? He's easily the most hated character in this game, and bananas are a huge reason for this (alongside many other reasons). I see what you're trying to do, but you picked the wrong default special for your example. Bananas are really ****ing dumb and everyone knows it.

 

[Judo777]

I have a stunning idea:

What if, instead of promoting exclusively all customs, or banning specific customs, or banning all customs, we allow, specifically, certain sets of customs, and name them accordingly? Including, if it balances it, the moves that everyone unanimously agree suck?

You would, instead of 12 customs, have 1 (or 2) additional "characters".

For example, take Sheik's Penetrating Needles or Gravity Grenade. Several people agree these two customs basically make Sheik go from S tier to SS tier because they do nothing but improve an already great character. Meanwhile, moves like Gale or Jellyfish are (afaik) considered niche or crap. So, what if instead of allowing a 2211 set and making Sheik SS tier with customs, we only allow a 2222 set? Not explicitly a (all four same numbers) set (although that is a lazy way of putting it), but specificly tailored customs that prevent the setup from being overpowered, and tailor a specific weakness so it isn't "broken"?

Like let's say Kong Cyclone DK is only ever allowed regular DK punch, or Heavy Skullbash is required to run alongside Quick Feet.

Is this a bad idea? Or a balanced idea?

Who thinks those customs help Sheik go to SS tier?

Penetrating needles is useful in like 3 MU's and are otherwise signifcantly inferior to standard needles. Gravity Grenade is significantly better than burst grenade, but it doesn't help that much. It gives her yet another thing she already has, a move that your opponent should never get hit by, that kills if they do (see vanish and bouncing fish offstage).

 

[PUK]

Customs do not make this any more of a reality than with customs off. Each meta is going to have its low tier characters. Infact, low tier characters may have a smaller chance at doing well in a customs on environment with the levels of "jank" that many other characters receive from customs. We'll likely have more viable characters in a customs meta, but it's silly to think that a handful of characters won't get left behind.
But even low tiers (in custom on) have things that can be called jank, or are solid from the beginning. And it gives them a chance, little obviously, but not ignorable. Even if they are invalidated by a character, or a strategy, even if it's the dominant chatacter or strategy, it can't be as dominant as shiek/Diddy are.


how could people possibly complain anymore than they already do about Diddy? He's easily the most hated character in this game, and bananas are a huge reason for this (alongside many other reasons). I see what you're trying to do, but you picked the wrong default special for your example. Bananas are really ****ing dumb and everyone knows it.

Well let's say people are starting to complain about FW or ko punch cuz it kills so early, it's dumb. Or thoron, cuz it's so safe. Powerful janks exist in custom off.

 

[Timbers]

*snip*

We don't know who is going to be low tier in a custom meta. You can't use the low tier of a customs off meta and try to apply it to customs on. It doesn't work. So we don't know if the future low tier of customs on will have any solid options to compete with a viable roster. Mac, DDD, G&W will probably be near useless in a customs environment. They are flawed characters that receive little to no help from customs, whereas other flawed characters are given customs that cover those weaknesses, or at least give them an abusable special to tear through a match.

FW only has the elevator effect for a 10-15% window, and Zelda goes into a longlasting helpless freefall afterwards. KO Punch isn't even a special, but, umm, he's dead most of the time before meter even charges to full. Also has 100000000 frames of endlag if he misses, and random windbox pushing opponents out of the punch for no reason is glitchy. Thoron is barely even..used. iirc there's an even stronger Thoron-only special in Robin's kit that is never talked about because elthunder is just so much better.

These are..bad examples, and it's a poor argument to make. If people think something is stupid, they'll complain about it. Diddy's banana and monkey flip get ******* about a ton. So does Sheik's BF and Vanish. Sonic's spindash. Pikachu's quick attack. I don't know why people are trying to make a point that we'd complain LESS if it was default, when all we ever do is ***** about things. Default or custom, people WILL complain about **** they don't like.

 

[extrasensory]

Mac, DDD, G&W will probably be near useless in a customs environment. They are flawed characters that receive little to no help from customs, whereas other flawed characters are given customs that cover those weaknesses, or at least give them an abusable special to tear through a match.

i can't speak for any other characters but G&W gets a killing up B which somewhat patches up his kill problems and a quick horizontal projectile in short order chef (though regular chef is good too). also, he can bucket shooting star bit and explosive balloon trip. gimmicks!

i'd say jigglypuff suffers more than those three. leaping rest is neat but whenever i use it i find that i never get a star KO from it and it seems to have increased endlag so i always get whacked even if i get a KO with it. maybe i'm just doing it wrong.

 

[PUK]

Sorry timbers, i misenderstood you about dumb move. I personnally think we shouldn't complain about a move, because it's unhealthy in a competitive game. But i understand the salt, damn shiek...
Otherwise Yes some bad character gain little with custom. But between a meta where two strategies are over dominant, and a meta where 20 strategie can work, 2 of them being better overall, the latter is nicer for a "low tier" because you have more chance to fight strategies you can handle, and the former is harder because you will only meet the over dominant strategies, which you can't handle because you're a low tier.

 

[Locke 06]

We shall not try to balance the game. Currently we have two options
1: playing custom off: it's what we did at the beginning, what we did even now in a lot of places, and it's not balanced. Not a bad choice, but a lot of players, including myself, find it sometimes boring because of Diddy/shiek superiority. Because they invalidate 2/3 of the cast by themself.

Who. Is. Invalidated. By. Diddy?

Sheik, I can see having very dominating matchups based on her really strong neutral /needles/frame data. However, I still don't know if she straight up invalidates characters.

What I see more of are characters being unviable due to multiple poor, but not unwinnable, matchups to top tiers. I know 2/3rds of the cast is hyperbole, but I don't know enough about their best matchups to say how lobsided their games can be.

 

[PUK]

Worst Diddy match up are slightly in his favor. A lot are between 6-4 and 7-3 in his favor. It means that you have to be far better to win against Diddy, unless you play one of the few character which don't fear him so much.
Same goes for shiek.
A few characters, between 15-20, while still losing against Diddy and shiek, can win.
Most can't without an absolute understanding of the MU on one side, and bad perception of the MU on the other. It's not a good premice to win.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I'm on the edge of my seat for the Mewtwo Update, concerning Diddy and/or Mii Sword, on different ends of the spectrum.

The question on my mind isn't 'how will they fix Diddy?', it's 'will they fix Diddy?'

 

[Quickhero]

The question on my mind isn't 'how will they fix Diddy?', it's 'will they fix Diddy?'

Diddy Kong isn't over-powered, he's actually the most balanced "best character" in Smash 4 and he doesn't break this game enough to even warrant a huge nerf. He is a fine character that doesn't need nerfs just because he's currently the best. Every fighting game ever has a top tier, and nerfing a character just because he's the best character in the game is just really dumb and it just will force the community to have ridiculously low tolerance rates for anything ever.

So to answer your question, they will do neither, as even if Sakurai has the knowledge to properly buff and nerf characters, there isn't anything broken about Diddy Kong that needs fixing.

 

[Terotrous]

has there been any character other than diddy/shiek/pika that you should not have a secondary?

I don't think you actually need a secondary for Yoshi. While he isn't dominanting against the top tiers I don't think he has any match where he just can't do anything.

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

The way I see it, the fundamental problem is that Diddy and Sheik are already designed like Brawl- characters. This basically leaves us two ways to try to restore game balance - we can either elevate a lot of other characters to that level or we can keep customs off and ban those two.

Given that a lot of players seem to find that Diddy and Sheik are actually fun characters to use, the former seems to be the better option to me right now. I'm not against revisiting customs off with those two banned if customs proves to be a janky metagame (or if, god willing, the Mewtwo DLC contains much needed balance patches), but right now customs on seems to be our best shot at a metagame that involves more than 5 characters.

I suppose a possible third option is we could ban specific custom moves, including the default customs for some characters, but I really don't think we want to go down that path, it's very smogon-esque and would be super hard to enforce.

resorting to camping is usually the main tactic to dealing with mu's you don't understand.

This is an amazingly good point that needs to be emphasized more. What you should be looking at is not whether the opponent chooses to camp when faced with a powerful option (ie, Kong Cyclone), but whether or not the camping strategy is effective against it. If they try to camp and still lose, then there's no evidence that that was a correct decision.

Customs on is a different game with a different meta

It's also a very new meta, which is important. Purely as an exercise, go back to page 1 of this thread and compare our impressions about the cast vs what we know now. Look at how laughably wrong we were. We are likely equally wrong about Customs On at this point. The fact that we find some new move that seems totally unbeatable every week only highlights how little we know about this new game right now. You talk about the folly of theorycrafters, but really anyone making bold statements about the Customs On metagame is theorycrafting right now. Kong Cyclone might well be the next Little Mac and be laughably easy to deal with once you know how to get around it.

EVO is not changing at this point. Let's see what happens when the best in the world butt heads. After the dust settles we might have some idea of what we're really dealing with in terms of the customs on metagame.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Then my alternate question is 'how/will they fix everyone else?'

EDIT: @ Quickhero

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Diddy Kong isn't over-powered, he's actually the most balanced "best character" in Smash 4 and he doesn't break this game enough to even warrant a huge nerf. He is a fine character that doesn't need nerfs just because he's currently the best. Every fighting game ever has a top tier, and nerfing a character just because he's the best character in the game is just really dumb and it just will force the community to have ridiculously low tolerance rates for anything ever.

So to answer your question, they will do neither, as even if Sakurai has the knowledge to properly buff and nerf characters, there isn't anything broken about Diddy Kong that needs fixing.

How about that up air? It's ridiculously fast, has a huge hitbox, and kills way earlier than is reasonable for a move that good. Just knock it down to killing around, I dunno, ZSS uair speed. Diddy's still a really good character (probably still top 3), but the dumbest aspect has been removed and now he has to at least kinda try to get kills (although he still probably has the best setups in the game either way).

 

[Antonykun]

Who. Is. Invalidated. By. Diddy?

Sheik, I can see having very dominating matchups based on her really strong neutral /needles/frame data. However, I still don't know if she straight up invalidates characters.

What I see more of are characters being unviable due to multiple poor, but not unwinnable, matchups to top tiers. I know 2/3rds of the cast is hyperbole, but I don't know enough about their best matchups to say how lobsided their games can be.

Diddys more of "Why play him than play Diddy" Rather than Sheik who is everyone's worst mu

 

[TTTTTsd]

All I'm going to say is Doc's Down-B 2 is a lot better than I gave it credit for. I think it still has Nado's priority on the last hit and it kills really early as an anything, like 60-70% at the edge without rage, not even offstage. It's not as hard to set up as I once thought, either. You can cover entire ledge options with it thanks to its 18-19 frames of an active hitbox, which lets you stuff a lot of ledge getup options that aren't a roll or a strong ledge attack hitbox.

It can beat getup options too if you space it right, it can catch tech rolls on platforms (particularly on BF if you use it right) and it's a good punish offstage.

Customs Doc is so fuuuunnn. This move is absurdly cool. This is why I push for a customs meta, sure early on there's "jank" that people are gonna lose to cause they don't get it, but when everyone does get it, what do we have? Something interesting, unique, that changes a lot of interactions with the game and makes it a lot more FUN. It's enough to be noticeable even to outside players and it makes a large difference, large enough to push it away from being considered an "inferior this or that", really. It's a unique draw that could be used to give more of a merit for a new player to pick this game up as well as their other choices. Just worth thinking about, IMO.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Diddy is a very benevolent dictator.

His advantages are not immense or especially polarizing, and his matchups are imo fun. Sure, uair is stupid, fair and bair are overtuned too, and Monkey Flip is vaguely unfair, but those are the breaks. I said he's a benevolent dictator, not a saint.

I'd modestly nerf Diddy (and Sheik) given the chance, and would never claim that the game is better because Diddy is overpowered. But Diddy doesn't keep me up at night. For like 75% of characters, the game would imo be worse if they swapped power levels with Diddy.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

This topic got a whole lot more interesting.

Honestly, I'm prone to agree a little bit with both sides. I feel Shaya has definitely argued a better anti-customs post than Seagull Joe has, and I feel the arguments for customs is still strong. Honestly, it really does seem like a push for an entirely new meta game, and that excites me in a strange way. The idea of there being jank in the customs meta sounds very likely; definitely more than there is in the non-custom meta. It seems to be coming down to an argument of which meta will be the prevailing one because I doubt two can exist in one space without one taking over the other.

Whatever the case, there is two months for discovering more jank, and it excites me to see that customs are even being acknowledged in the first place like this. Before Apex customs were pretty much ignored by the larger community, but now they come and display drastic changes that shake the very foundation of Smash Bros. It's a Smash 4 that is really disconnecting itself from past iterations in that sense and I find that fascinating. It has now brought out the best and worst of the community, and I feel like it has lit a fire that definitely wasn't present before in the lull after Apex.

I look forward to the next two months of bickering and adaptation. I wish both metas could share a space, but with tournaments as poorly run as is, that doesn't seem likely. Whatever the case, these next two months will be a huge storm.

 

[Terotrous]

I think Diddy is a very benevolent dictator.

Honestly I'm not quite as convinced. Like I've said before, I don't like the fact that Diddy is so basic and so good. There's a lot of characters where it's just like "why would I put effort into this characters when I could do a fraction of the work and get much better results?" I feel he will definitely stagnate the metagame in a way that a character like Evil Ryu (in Street Fighter 4) might not.

His advantages are not immense or especially polarizing, and his matchups are imo fun. Sure, uair is stupid, fair and bair are overtuned too, and Monkey Flip is vaguely unfair, but those are the breaks. I said he's a benevolent dictator, not a saint.

I don't find him fun to fight. He's stupidly safe and he has ludicrous reward on hit. You have to be super solid the entire match and one mistake can spell your doom.

I'd modestly nerf Diddy (and Sheik) given the chance

I'd probably give Diddy and Sheik moderate nerfs, then tiny nerfs to Pika, Sonic, Rosa, and maybe ZSS. Then perhaps some buffs to some of the weaker characters, like Samus and especially Zelda.


Also, I'll go out there right now and state that if we could balance the game a little better, Customs Off would be my preference. I do generally like the way most characters work in the Customs Off meta, the issue is just that the balance needs a little bit more fine-tuning.

 

[Balgorxz]

Sheik is fine IMO, diddy just needs damage nerfs since fair/uair and monkey flip deal way too much damage for how safe they are.
buff bottom 20 characterss and we are done here.
you don't need to tweek every single charater to balance a game

 

[freezy]

I ultimately still prefer what's best for the stakeholders I believe matter most (Tournament Organisers, Active Players, Media Reception)

Imo viewers are an important stakeholder aswell (maybe they could also go under "media reception"). Without them there wouldn't be streams and sponsors and probably also less tourneys, which also leads to less players. It is all tied together though, of course we can't just look at one group of stakeholders and only cater to them.