Character Competitive Impressions

[Antonykun]

Dapuffster said it better, I do think brawler is being highly overrated, somewhere in the 15-20 region just because landing a kill with him is hard when someone is familiar with the character, he has the yoshi syndrome in that respect where he is good at getting the % lead but then gets screwed over by the opponent having rage + better kill options.

Wait... Does that mean Swordfighter has best overall kill power of the Miis?
Up throw is a kill set up for U-air and U-air easily kills at 100%

 

[Jigglymaster]

Wait... Does that mean Swordfighter has best overall kill power of the Miis?
Up throw is a kill set up for U-air and U-air easily kills at 100%

Is that even a real combo though? That's like saying hypothetically Mii Brawler can D-throw into Helicopter Kick and kill at 100% if he sets it up right.

 

[Smog Frog]

doesnt mii brawler have more things that combo into copter kick? i remember falling uair(this works at a large range of % too!), sh fair, and dtilt iirc. of course, this is tiny brawler, but i think default at least has falling uair into up b.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Is that even a real combo though? That's like saying hypothetically Mii Brawler can D-throw into Helicopter Kick and kill at 100% if he sets it up right.

It isn't a combo. It potentially combos at 0% but there is DI to account for. With no DI, yeah it can true combo...but not at kill %'s.
Not that its a biggie given that being above an opponent isn't an ideal situation regardless so by that very nature u-throw and d-throw help position opposition for his U-air, but that's me ranting.

 

[Jaguar360]

Is that even a real combo though? That's like saying hypothetically Mii Brawler can D-throw into Helicopter Kick and kill at 100% if he sets it up right.

I think U-throw to U-air on Swordfighter is air dodgeable. Positioning is perfect for it though.

D-throw to U-air is guaranteed to kill at some percents I think, but the percent window is for the kill is smaller.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

He has results, just nothing breathtaking. People too lazy to click onto character boards another thing for no discussion over there too, which also makes them miss info that's right in front of their faces if all they did was make a couple of simple clicks over just leddit twitz and bookface

i actually know his results but its pretty damn rare that hes beeing in the top 8 of well any large tourny. But i am lacking in info on his results in japan.

 

[Antonykun]

Is that even a real combo though? That's like saying hypothetically Mii Brawler can D-throw into Helicopter Kick and kill at 100% if he sets it up right.

Swordfighter's Uair Autocancels 7 frames after the WH ends meaning that it is safer to throw out than Helicopter Kick
I'm not going to say Swordfighter is like Ganon tho just that his U-air is cray cray

 

[Ffamran]

He has results, just nothing breathtaking. People too lazy to click onto character boards another thing for no discussion over there too, which also makes them miss info that's right in front of their faces if all they did was make a couple of simple clicks over just leddit twitz and bookface

There was that one Yoshi, Xeon, who go second in Puerto Rican tournament.

Hey, at least people use him. Look at the other characters like Samus, Falco, and Zelda. I wouldn't be surprised if people legitimately did not know they existed. The Zelda board laughed when people were getting bodied by a Zelda spamming Din's Fire online. That's the equivalent of spamming Fox and Falco's Blasters.

 

[webbedspace]

I'll be honest: this game maybe has too many characters to easily remember at once. I frequently catch myself realising I forgot Charizard exists. And when I do, I find it's because I've forgotten about Peach or Pac-Man or Lucario or something.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There was that one Yoshi, Xeon, who go second in Puerto Rican tournament.

Hey, at least people use him. Look at the other characters like Samus, Falco, and Zelda. I wouldn't be surprised if people legitimately did not know they existed. The Zelda board laughed when people were getting bodied by a Zelda spamming Din's Fire online. That's the equivalent of spamming Fox and Falco's Blasters.

Zelda will always have Nairo.

We gotz representation in one form or another for at least all those characters as little as they may be.

 

[NairWizard]

Dapuffster said it better, I do think brawler is being highly overrated, somewhere in the 15-20 region just because landing a kill with him is hard when someone is familiar with the character, he has the yoshi syndrome in that respect where he is good at getting the % lead but then gets screwed over by the opponent having rage + better kill options.

Cool, this confirmed my suspicions (haven't played top-level Brawler).

Now that customs have been out for a few weeks, I'd be curious to see an updated tier list from you, Dabuz.

 

[Nu~]

Cool, this confirmed my suspicions (haven't played top-level Brawler).

Now that customs have been out for a few weeks, I'd be curious to see an updated tier list from you, Dabuz.

But we still haven't seen more than 1/2 of the custom characters in action yet

 

[Antonykun]

But we still haven't seen more than 1/2 of the custom characters in action yet

and of those there are those who aren't even used "correctly"

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon with the disjoints, yo.

Shenaniganon strikes again

Yeah, it's still impossible to make a tier list at this point. There's way too much untapped potential.

With that said, we should really condense smash 4 tier lists more. So many tier lists have several alphabets worth of tiers. If we do make a tier list, I'd say 4 tiers max, S,A,B,C, with S being the absolute best, A being viable, B being "secondaries may be required", and C being "secondaries are mandatory".

 

[Antonykun]

Shenaniganon strikes again

Yeah, it's still impossible to make a tier list at this point. There's way too much untapped potential.

With that said, we should really condense smash 4 tier lists more. So many tier lists have several alphabets worth of tiers. If we do make a tier list, I'd say 4 tiers max, S,A,B,C, with S being the absolute best, A being viable, B being "secondaries may be required", and C being "secondaries are mandatory".

Villager is C tier then

 

[Quickhero]

Villager is C tier then

We get Villager isn't broken and that the EBT strategy ADHD used is pretty inconsistent, but you cannot say that he REQUIRES a secondary and make it sound like Villager is average when compared to the rest of the cast. Villager has gained a number of good match-ups that makes it so he has a decent chance vs most of the class and should definitely be at least B tier, if not bottom A tier; going by Blobface's criteria, of course.

 

[S_B]

You can toss Bowser into C tier, then. You had BETTER have a secondary...

 

[Road Death Wheel]

has there been any character other than diddy/shiek/pika that you should not have a secondary?

 

[Nu~]

has there been any character other than diddy/shiek/pika that you should not have a secondary?

I don't know why zss or sonic would need a secondary

 

[David Viran]

has there been any character other than diddy/shiek/pika that you should not have a secondary?

I believe zss does not need a secondary. Her worst MU's are still doable.

 

[Antonykun]

We get Villager isn't broken and that the EBT strategy ADHD used is pretty inconsistent, but you cannot say that he REQUIRES a secondary and make it sound like Villager is average when compared to the rest of the cast. Villager has gained a number of good match-ups that makes it so he has a decent chance vs most of the class and should definitely be at least B tier, if not bottom A tier; going by Blobface's criteria, of course.

Sorry I totally forgot about customs
Custom Villager is still dubious to me.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't know why zss or sonic would need a secondary

maybe you got me on sonic. iv seen him funtion pretty well as a stang alone but zzs will always hate being tall and havng a slow grab. her mu with diddy looks grim.

 

[David Viran]

maybe you got me on sonic. iv seen him funtion pretty well as a stang alone but zzs will always hate being tall and havng a slow grab. her mu with diddy looks grim.

The Diddy MU is not bad enough to warrant a secondary. Being tall is good and bad she has good range mostly because of it and the grab dare I say it I would actually prefer over a regular grab on her. It fits her playstyle more she doesn't really want to be that close.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

*throws D3 into @ Blobface 's C-tier.*

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

Smooth Criminal

 

[HeroMystic]

has there been any character other than diddy/shiek/pika that you should not have a secondary?

ZSS, Rosalina, Mario, Yoshi, and Sonic don't need secondaries. Pretty sure Luigi is okay without one despite his somewhat bad MUs with Rosie and Megaman.

 

[Nu~]

Until every Pac-Man learns how to handle rosa and sonic, throw Pac in B

Oh, but we will be high A tier with customs fully explored...mwhahaha

 

[Seagull Joe]

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

 

[NairWizard]

ZSS, Rosalina, Mario, Yoshi, and Sonic don't need secondaries. Pretty sure Luigi is okay without one despite his somewhat bad MUs with Rosie and Megaman.

I'm 99% sure that Rosalina needs a secondary. Her Diddy Kong MU is just too awful, and he's the most prevalent character right now. The others, I agree with.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The Diddy MU is not bad enough to warrant a secondary. Being tall is good and bad she has good range mostly because of it and the grab dare I say it I would actually prefer over a regular grab on her. It fits her playstyle more she doesn't really want to be that close.

YOur talking to a samus main i understand that prefferance very well for the grab. im just saying that less cqc tools for diddy is generally a worse out come expecially since shield grabbing become much more strict as well as punishable.
nobody wants to get u throw to u aired

 

[Pyr]

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

Do you only post blanket statements, or do you actually participate in discussion and give your reasoning? Don't think I've seen anything discussion-worthy from you yet.

 

[Nu~]

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

You're free to have your own opinion, but don't shove it down other's throats. Yes, there are arguments for and against customs, but don't act like your side is the "right" side.

 

[Strangelove13]

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

Is this a troll/bait post, or did you have twitch chat open in another tab and typed here by accident?

Care to explain your reasoning please?

 

[thehard]

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

Hammer Spin Dash lol

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

Hey man we might as well see more jank than if we are gunna have jank. whats wrong with adding 20 more characters to that jank list.

*edit* quick note btw regarding one opinion as foolish when neither truly knows the outcome, ....is foolish.

 

[Locke 06]

Pretty sure Joe's statement is not a blanket statement and his reasoning is very clear. There is a lot more jank in the custom metagame than there is in the vanilla metagame (fact). He doesn't like it, and he thinks the other people that do are foolish.

Back to the secondary topic, I think Mega's Sheik MU is bad, but not terrible. As she's most commonly cited as his worst MU, I'd put him as "does not need a secondary."

Edit: Not to call you out, but...

Hey man we might as well see more jank than if we are gunna have jank. whats wrong with adding 20 more characters to that jank list.

Are you kidding me? Please tell me other people have a problem with this statement.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Pretty sure Joe's statement is not a blanket statement and his reasoning is very clear. There is a lot more jank in the custom metagame than there is in the vanilla metagame (fact). He doesn't like it, and he thinks the other people that do are foolish.

Pretty incendiary stuff. Very least he could expand on why we're a buncha asshats for liking the kinda jank customs brings.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi doesn't need secondaries cause he isn't gonna be winning anything.

 

[NairWizard]

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

This was a lot more amusing because I read it in a Vegeta voice due to your avatar. "Why are you people so foolish!?" Come on. You can totally imagine Chris Sabat saying that. You know you can.




Anyway, I mostly agree with you, Joe, that customs introduce a lot of jank. I don't like jank. Even regular special move jank (I'd totally remove Pika's up-b from the game if I could, for example). But if customs are what people want to spectate, if the extra balance that they offer is worth the price of jank at high levels to most people, then that's fine by me. I'd rather that people enjoy watching smash 4 tournaments than that they complain about Diddy all day long. I'll win despite the jank.

So no I don't like customs, or fighting against them, but I enjoy competing, improving, and winning, and I still get to do that despite the existence of customs. I'll still play the game. It's not like we're turning on items or something. That might make me question whether I should continue playing or not.

 

[Nu~]

Hey man we might as well see more jank than if we are gunna have jank. whats wrong with adding 20 more characters to that jank list.

*edit* quick note btw regarding one opinion as foolish when neither truly knows the outcome, ....is foolish.

LOL
Wait...you are being facetious, right?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Pretty sure Joe's statement is not a blanket statement and his reasoning is very clear. There is a lot more jank in the custom metagame than there is in the vanilla metagame (fact). He doesn't like it, and he thinks the other people that do are foolish.

Back to the secondary topic, I think Mega's Sheik MU is bad, but not terrible. As she's most commonly cited as his worst MU, I'd put him as "does not need a secondary."

Edit: Not to call you out, but...


Are you kidding me? Please tell me other people have a problem with this statement.

Lol please don't take that all that seriously locke. It was my attempt at cleverly placing hyperbole in the reverse.

*edit* kinda glad it worked. it just means people actually care about the meta. not that i find my statement entirly untrue but not quite as straight forrward as that.