Character Competitive Impressions

[GeneralLedge]

If I'm watching the stream and reading Heavy Skull Bash's description both correctly, it seems to have significantly less knockback even just a few units away from Pikachu. It looks like it requires being pretty much within grab range to hit like a kill move.

Next people will ask to ban grabs because grabs hit at grab range and some grabs can guarantee a kill at certain percents.

 

[Castell]

tons of moves that are in the customless metagame can kill at ridiculous percents if you don't know wtf to do against them/don't see them coming

imagine if rest was a custom move for instance, there would be the same omg borke da geme!!! bann!! cries

That's kinda the point I was making. If people are still going "omg borke da geme!!! bann!!" when they look at customs with 4 days left until the solidified EVO rule set, then it seems the community hasn't been informed enough. Not that I'm trying to blame anyone, but stands to reason that customs could still be considered untested if the community is really split over the idea.

If I'm watching the stream and reading Heavy Skull Bash's description both correctly, it seems to have significantly less knockback even just a few units away from Pikachu. It looks like it requires being pretty much within grab range to hit like a kill move.

Next people will ask to ban grabs because grabs hit at grab range and some grabs can guarantee a kill at certain percents.

Try labbing the move yourself. It has some weird properties. When standing still uncharged, the 'sweetspot' of the move can be considered around 2 pikachus and does 15%. When uncharged and done out of a run, pivot, jump or anything except standing still, the sweetspot is about 2 pikachus and does 6%. When standing or done out of movemnt, charged even for a little bit, the sweetspot and damage both grow very fast, around 3 pikachus and ~25% damage.

 

[NairWizard]

Since I don't like to give an opinion without some knowledge, I went and watched the sets to see what the hype was all about. Apparently MVD kept getting killed at like 60-80 from Heavy Skull Bash. ESAM's use of it was much looser than my own; it did seem almost like he was just throwing it out at moments where MVD would be likely to not respond with patience -> airdodge. Also, ESAM mentioned on Reddit that it's possible to punish the ~2 frames of landing lag that every character has while falling to the ground (including during autocanceled moves, and it's 4 frames when fastfalling, something that I didn't know).

I have to incorporate this move more solidly into my gameplan. I may have been too hasty to dismiss Pikachu in the customs metagame based on my experience vs. heavies; it seems that if I use more of this move, I should be able to overcome that heavy disparity. If I can kill Ganon on a landing at 100, that's pretty good, and probably keeps the matchup in Pikachu's favor.

So basically I learned from this that I haven't been using enough Heavy Skull Bash. Cool.

 

[Nocally]

To be honest, those two customs are pretty game changing for Pikachu. ESAM talked about in the post-tournament interview. Pikachu as a character, excels at racking up damage but can only kill with a hard read or if the opponent doesn't DI the up-throw to Thunder. Factor in the Thunder Wave, which stuns enemy for Kills with Smash attacks (trade off being half damage and much less range so it's not broken), and Heavy Skull Bash which hits as hard as F-Smash or as hard as like Bowser's fully charged F-smash when charged, which it takes even less time to charge then the normal Skull Bash AND comes out much faster than F-smash. The only down side is the more end lag. But remember this is on Pikachu. Only heavies should be getting kills at <50% with hard reads and slow moves, but Pikachu is getting them for much less. It's kind of like Link's Power Bow before it got nerfed, except that Link needed to fully charge it and Link wasn't already a really good character with manageable flaws.

This is probably going to be the next "Broken custom of the Week". It seems customs haven't been fully integrated into the community yet, which certainly hurts the idea of having them at EVO.

The thing about Skull bash is that it's not only super strong in close range, but when you get hit and soar out to the blast lines, skull bash will kinda "misfire" just like Luigi's´ side b, making it a good recovery move as well.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I'm fairly sure any version of skull bash gets a charge boost when input as a smash attack.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Since I don't like to give an opinion without some knowledge, I went and watched the sets to see what the hype was all about. Apparently MVD kept getting killed at like 60-80 from Heavy Skull Bash. ESAM's use of it was much looser than my own; it did seem almost like he was just throwing it out at moments where MVD would be likely to not respond with patience -> airdodge. Also, ESAM mentioned on Reddit that it's possible to punish the ~2 frames of landing lag that every character has while falling to the ground (including during autocanceled moves, and it's 4 frames when fastfalling, something that I didn't know).

I have to incorporate this move more solidly into my gameplan. I may have been too hasty to dismiss Pikachu in the customs metagame based on my experience vs. heavies; it seems that if I use more of this move, I should be able to overcome that heavy disparity. If I can kill Ganon on a landing at 100, that's pretty good, and probably keeps the matchup in Pikachu's favor.

So basically I learned from this that I haven't been using enough Heavy Skull Bash. Cool.

i don't think that match up was ever switching to ganons favor. we just will always know ganon to do ganon things.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Anyone who frequents Reddit should be aware of this, but if not: http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/3930427?t=7h31m51s

ESAM (Pikachu with Heavy Skull Bash) goes for a read that MVD would not jump after getting down thrown and either do an air dodge or an aerial. He does just that and kills Diddy at 40% before the hit at Castle Siege.

I must say even if it is a difficult move to sweetspot, and its long end lag, that move seems quite overpowered. And playing on a larger stage wouldn't make it any less absurd really. It needed a read to land, but the punish is way too strong. If there are guaranteed, not too difficult to perform set ups to land this move on most of the cast, I would consider banning this move.

I thought ESAM retired and MVD played Duck Hunt? The brochure said ESAM retired and MVD played Duck Hunt.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It's possible, just hard. That's why it's called competitive.

And keep in mind Sm4sh (and customs) has been out for a short time. Brawl came out 7 years after Melee. Sm4sh came out 6 years after Brawl. If it continues like this, it means we still have several years left to learn how to play with customs.

The possibility of learning customs, and the rapidity at which you can do it, should not be an argument in the debate of wheter or not to allow them.

It's more impractical than impossible. Most players never really learned the MUs against mid to low tiers in Melee and Brawl, so it's not as if this is anything new. The good news is that thanks to online it's not too difficult to acquaint yourself with just about every character in the game on a basic level. Even so, there's a LOT of customs out there and to really know everything every viable build of every character can do requires you to put a ridiculous amount of time into the game. Most of the time it's possible to have a basic understanding of all the custom moves with a little homework, but the reality is that with 50+ characters there are going to be tricks and setups that even the most well-informed players won't be able to keep up with, at least for the first few years the game's out. The difficulty of keeping up with the meta doesn't make it unplayable or necessarily unfair, just annoying to an extent.

 

[S_B]

Anyone who frequents Reddit should be aware of this, but if not: http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/3930427?t=7h31m51s

ESAM (Pikachu with Heavy Skull Bash) goes for a read that MVD would not jump after getting down thrown and either do an air dodge or an aerial. He does just that and kills Diddy at 40% before the hit at Castle Siege.

I must say even if it is a difficult move to sweetspot, and its long end lag, that move seems quite overpowered. And playing on a larger stage wouldn't make it any less absurd really. It needed a read to land, but the punish is way too strong. If there are guaranteed, not too difficult to perform set ups to land this move on most of the cast, I would consider banning this move.

Every time a Diddy player ragequits, an angel gets its wings.

Am I the only one finding the hypocrisy in this kind of staggering? Diddy, while not quite on par with Brawl's MK, is still an atrociously bad FOTM and if SSB was made by a developer who released regular balance updates, his aerials would've been toned down months ago.

And these Diddy mains are salty about customs? Salty that other characters may actually pose a challenge and d-throw > u-air isn't going to carry them anymore?

Seriously...?

 

[Castell]

I thought ESAM retired and MVD played Duck Hunt? The brochure said ESAM retired and MVD played Duck Hunt.

ESAM still goes out to local tournaments. He's just no longer committed. MVD does play Duck Hunt, except Duck Hunt loses to pretty much all the top tiers. I can't blame him for picking up Diddy as a pocket character, as he doesn't really have bad match-ups with anyone, least of all the top tiers.

 

[NairWizard]

i don't think that match up was ever switching to ganons favor. we just will always know ganon to do ganon things.

In general, Pikachu's main issue is dying before he gets to use his Rage to KO an opponent. With customs off, this doesn't usually matter because most recoveries are exploitable and Quick Attack + Thunder gives Pikachu enough coverage offstage to hit most characters. There are a handful of recoveries that I just can't edgeguard as Pikachu with customs off. Sheik, other Pikachus, Meta Knight, Zelda, Palutena... maybe ZSS/Greninja and a few others are challenging, but doable.

With customs on, several characters get boosts to their recoveries that leave me scratching my head as to how to get the KO consistently. I mean, I can still gimp Ganon, don't get me wrong, but it's hard, really hard. Wizard's Dropkick + up-b customs makes it risky.

Liberal use of Heavy Skull Bash may make this a non-issue, though to be fair Pikachu will still die for missing the move.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Seriously this topic has been done to death now, we get it. players are salty. We should actually talk about counter strategies rather than moan about other moaning. If we want people to start implementing counter strats, please lets make some dang it.

 

[COLINBG]

It's more impractical than impossible. Most players never really learned the MUs against mid to low tiers in Melee and Brawl, so it's not as if this is anything new. The good news is that thanks to online it's not too difficult to acquaint yourself with just about every character in the game on a basic level. Even so, there's a LOT of customs out there and to really know everything every viable build of every character can do requires you to put a ridiculous amount of time into the game. Most of the time it's possible to have a basic understanding of all the custom moves with a little homework, but the reality is that with 50+ characters there are going to be tricks and setups that even the most well-informed players won't be able to keep up with, at least for the first few years the game's out. The difficulty of keeping up with the meta doesn't make it unplayable or necessarily unfair, just annoying to an extent.

Now I'm more with you.

I believe a good player knows how to and is able to play as every character in a somewhat effective way. That means he will also know how to counter them and react accordingly when facing them.

Of course, knowing every little aspect and property of every custom in the game is not possible, but even without customs, I don't think it's possible to do with the default moves; a lot of players who main a character still learn things about him/her after several years.

''Good enough'' is what we should be trying to go for, and that is definitely possible. What I mean by that is, you don't need to know 100% of the advanced techniques a move can do to be able to play againts it in a competitive manner. In almost every situation, having a general/advanced understanding of the move is sufficient to not hinder your gameplay.

There are also characters who have either no good customs, very little good customs, or customs really similar to the default moves, so we don't have to learn how to play versus 81 new sets for each character. Most of them have a dozen of good sets at best. That rules out a good portion of what we should be preparing against. Ideally, we should be able to counter the 81 sets for each character. In practice it's not possible, but it's also not needed, even at a competitive level.

But I understand your point.

 

[Nu~]

We know how to stop it, so let's move on. Use a disjointed/invincible hitbox to get villager off the ledge without touching the balloons. (ie: Fire hydrant, stone Kirby, thunder jolt, etc)
Or just gain the lead and run away to force him in the offensive.


Soo...about those Pac-Man customs...
2132 season is about to begin

An aggressive Pac-Man set that uses freaky fruit for kill setups, combos, and projectile elimination (Galaxian is love, galaxian is life)
with on fire hydrant and meteor trampoline for unfair stage control & traps?
It's what I always wanted (single tear)

 

[Castell]

If we're talking about counter strats to Heavy Skull Bash then let us follow the words of Isai: "Don't get hit."

The weakness of the move itself is the ridiculous kill power disappears after 1/4 of the distance is traveled and it has the same end lag as regular skull bash for about half the distance. It has the weird glitch that makes the half distance point moot and QA is already very good for recovery. Its main uses has been for punishing rolls, spotdodges, airdodges, and aerials on shield extremely hard. I can't test shield damage but a strong move like that probably murders shields.

Space pikachu from a safe distance or bait it out with a counter. It's an imperfect solution, I know.

 

[Quickhero]

Why does aMSa think that Greninja stays the same with custom moves on? Shifting Shuriken is an amazing move and Greninja gets a better combo game and a scary kill-confirm and really doesn't lose that much in return. Someone tell aMSa to use it.

 

[S_B]

It's more impractical than impossible. Most players never really learned the MUs against mid to low tiers in Melee and Brawl, so it's not as if this is anything new. The good news is that thanks to online it's not too difficult to acquaint yourself with just about every character in the game on a basic level. Even so, there's a LOT of customs out there and to really know everything every viable build of every character can do requires you to put a ridiculous amount of time into the game. Most of the time it's possible to have a basic understanding of all the custom moves with a little homework, but the reality is that with 50+ characters there are going to be tricks and setups that even the most well-informed players won't be able to keep up with, at least for the first few years the game's out. The difficulty of keeping up with the meta doesn't make it unplayable or necessarily unfair, just annoying to an extent.

While true, there's two things to consider...

1. Many customs are garbage and strictly inferior to their standard counterparts. Have you seen Diddy's customs? Most of them are trash and no one would ever even consider using them. Out of 8 customs, Bowser has maybe 3 which are at all worth using. Sure, there's hypothetically 8 customs per character that every player will need to acquaint themselves with, but the reality is that you're just not going to see a lot of them because they're horrible.

2. Given that the balance patches we were seeing stopped abruptly for some godforsaken reason, customs are the only things that have even a CHANCE of saving many characters from being bottom tier garbage. In most cases, even customs aren't going to do that, but they at least offer us the CHANCE that it could happen and that's better than characters being guaranteed crap forever.

So I think people need to suck it up and deal with the fact that customs are going to be better for the health of the game in the long term (and won't actually be THAT much of a problem in the short term, either).

I can't speak for everyone, but seeing the same 2-3 characters coming out on top in every tournament gets old quickly and seriously causes my interest in the tournament videos/scene to wane. Diversity is better for the health of the game.

I just hope we see something emerge that counters Diddiy/Shiek antics sooner rather than later...

 

[COLINBG]

@ Castell

Isai always knew what's up

 

[WeirdChillFever]

We know how to stop it, so let's move on. Use a disjointed/invincible hitbox to get villager off the ledge without touching the balloons. (ie: Fire hydrant, stone Kirby, thunder jolt, etc)
Or just gain the lead and run away to force him in the offensive.


Soo...about those Pac-Man customs...
2132 season is about to begin

An aggressive Pac-Man set that uses freaky fruit for kill setups, combos, and projectile elimination (Galaxian is love, galaxian is life)
with on fire hydrant and meteor trampoline for unfair stage control & traps?
It's what I always wanted (single tear)

He's the trap character we need, not the one we deserve.

And yes, Meteor Trampoline is MUH BAROK FIX worthy.
It's hitbox is crazy, it kills earlier than most of other Pac's kill moves (Around 120% still not gud)

Freaky Fruit (Man, can I pull out a shameless plug again?) is so much more than different kinds of trajectories, this one includes other things like backwards trajectory (Feel the burn. Now.), meteors (Featuring the Black Eyed Keys), platform hogging fruit (An Apple a day keeps the platforms okay!) and a Danger Wrap like Melon (Fruit that prefers the air)

Default is fantastic at walling a character out, but Freaky Fruit offers silly gimmicks that make you cry.

Cherry Holidays!

 

[Castell]

Could we get some video of this ridiculous Pac-man? I'm already starting to become wary of customs that are called silly...

 

[S_B]

He's the trap character we need, not the one we deserve.

And yes, Meteor Trampoline is MUH BAROK FIX worthy.
It's hitbox is crazy, it kills earlier than most of other Pac's kill moves (Around 120% still not gud)

Freaky Fruit (Man, can I pull out a shameless plug again?) is so much more than different kinds of trajectories, this one includes other things like backwards trajectory (Feel the burn. Now.), meteors (Featuring the Black Eyed Keys), platform hogging fruit (An Apple a day keeps the platforms okay!) and a Danger Wrap like Melon (Fruit that prefers the air)

Default is fantastic at walling a character out, but Freaky Fruit offers silly gimmicks that make you cry.

Cherry Holidays!

I so badly want to see Abadango come back with Packers and take major tournaments. Seriously, that guy played his HEART out at Apex, but standard Pac-Mac just doesn't have the tools to beat the top tiers.

 

[adom4]

I don't know if this is the place to ask this but does anyone have any general tips against DDD?
I always struggle against DDD & it's driving me nuts.

 

[warionumbah2]

We should actually talk about counter strategies rather than moan about other moaning.

Counter strategies should be discussed in character board MU threads imo. Coming up with tactics against whatever MU you're covering is more effective than asking here. I get better advice from MK users , unlike here where a ton of peeps don't main MK or have experience resulting in write ups filled with theorycraft.

 

[Lavani]

Why does aMSa think that Greninja stays the same with custom moves on? Shifting Shuriken is an amazing move and Greninja gets a better combo game and a scary kill-confirm and really doesn't lose that much in return. Someone tell aMSa to use it.

Shifting Shuriken is quite a bit slower than Water Shuriken and can't be charged; fully charged Water Shuriken is large enough to scoop opponents off the ledge, is multihit+transcendent, and has good kill power. The potential rewards from Shifting Shuriken are substantial, but it isn't a straight upgrade.

 

[NairWizard]

I so badly want to see Abadango come back with Packers and take major tournaments. Seriously, that guy played his HEART out at Apex, but standard Pac-Mac just doesn't have the tools to beat the top tiers.

I read that Abadango is using a lot of Rosalina now.

The Japanese players seem to have changed their mains for customs, at least some of them.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Did some testing/comparison data on Pikachu's Heavy Skull Bash before I have to leave. Take note this was made in a rush.

Testing was done on Final Destination against Mario, whom was at the center of the stage with 50% damage.


Pikachu's Heavy Skull Bash: 53 launcher speed uncharged, 67 half charge, 93 fully charged

Bowser's Fsmash: 67 uncharged, 80 half charge, 93 fully charged

Ike's Fsmash: 53 uncharged, 67 half charge, 80 fully charged

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch: 80 forward hit, 106 reverse hit

Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch: 53 forward hit, 67 reverse hit

Pikachu's HSB on Sudden Death: 160 launcher speed uncharged, 212 half charge, 254 fully charged

Bowser's Fsmash on Sudden Death: 241 uncharged, 281 half charge, 321 fully charged


Not sure if I did this correctly, though someone else can make more sense of this than I can probably.

EDIT: I only used HSB at point blank, by the way.

 

[COLINBG]

I read that Abadango is using a lot of Rosalina now.

The Japanese players seem to have changed their mains for customs, at least some of them.

That's a shame because Pac does well against Diddy, as well as other higher tier characters, and he's one of the characters who benefits the most from customs. I would really love to see Abadango get back at it.

 

[thehard]

Why does aMSa think that Greninja stays the same with custom moves on? Shifting Shuriken is an amazing move and Greninja gets a better combo game and a scary kill-confirm and really doesn't lose that much in return. Someone tell aMSa to use it.

I did over twitter lol. And I linked him to the Bowser Waveslash video (he mentioned interest in custom Bowser)

 

[GeneralLedge]

I wrote elsewhere (reddit of all places), but I'm starting to get this feeling in my gut that the negative part of the community is simply sick of learning new things and wants to push to a point where they know every match-up by heart so they can confirm who wins and precisely why. This gut feeling started with the whole "Melee community split", but several things are making me feel like this feeling is warranted. Specificly, in spite of the Heavy Skull Bash, many other factors made Pikachu seem like a valid Diddy counter, and yet I've rarely seen a Pikachu/Diddy MU. I've seen characters give up after the first round and switch to Diddy. Because Diddy is safe. Diddy is known to be safe. We learned that already, so why learn anything beyond that when he's going to win the cold, hard $$$?

Is it a valid thing to say, that people may simply be sick of learning how to play the game? That people want an easy way to win, and putting an obstacle in their way makes them upset that they need to learn something new?

Even without customs in consideration, I feel the same way about this. Customs are simply a different lens to see through, and I see people stagnating the game before learning it. People want to push the meta and let the meta evolve, and they cite the meta as being harmed by customs. But is it harmed by customs, or by learning? Why should I learn when I can win with Diddy Kong instead? That's how you win, after all. That's how they always will.

 

[HeroMystic]

Did some testing/comparison data on Pikachu's Heavy Skull Bash before I have to leave. Take note this was made in a rush.

Testing was done on Final Destination against Mario, whom was at the center of the stage with 50% damage.


Pikachu's Heavy Skull Bash: 53 launcher speed uncharged, 67 half charge, 93 fully charged

Bowser's Fsmash: 67 uncharged, 80 half charge, 93 fully charged

Ike's Fsmash: 53 uncharged, 67 half charge, 80 fully charged

Ganondorf's Warlock Punch: 80 forward hit, 106 reverse hit

Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch: 53 forward hit, 67 reverse hit

Pikachu's HSB on Sudden Death: 160 launcher speed uncharged, 212 half charge, 254 fully charged

Bowser's Fsmash on Sudden Death: 241 uncharged, 281 half charge, 321 fully charged


Not sure if I did this correctly, though someone else can make more sense of this than I can probably.

EDIT: I only used HSB at point blank, by the way.

Going by your numbers, it looks like Pikachu's HSB has high BKB (Base Knockback) when fully charged and less KBG (Knockback Growth) than Bowser's. Regardless, that's pretty strong.

 

[FullMoon]

Whether you use Shifting Shuriken or Water Shuriken depends more on the MU. Against R.O.B or Bowser Jr, Shifting Shuriken is better because that way the shuriken goes through Gyro and Mechakoopa; against someone like Villager, you probably want to keep regular shurikens because Pocket.

I do think that Greninja would like Shifting Shuriken for most MUs though. The only ones I can see it being bad are against characters with reflector and overall Shifting Shuriken improves Greninja's MU with quite a few characters.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Counter strategies should be discussed in character board MU threads imo. Coming up with tactics against whatever MU you're covering is more effective than asking here. I get better advice from MK users , unlike here where a ton of peeps don't main MK or have experience resulting in write ups filled with theorycraft.

whatever floats your boat buddy. if ya don't want to talk about your impressions of character specific match ups here no ones forcing you.

 

[S_B]

I read that Abadango is using a lot of Rosalina now.

The Japanese players seem to have changed their mains for customs, at least some of them.

Aww...

Custom Pac could be the answer to the Diddy/Shiek menace...

 

[Nu~]

I read that Abadango is using a lot of Rosalina now.

The Japanese players seem to have changed their mains for customs, at least some of them.

Not surprised, she suits his overly defensive playstyle more.
But now we lost some representation...

Good thing we still have chef pac. I like his playstyle more.

 

[thehard]

I read that Abadango is using a lot of Rosalina now.

The Japanese players seem to have changed their mains for customs, at least some of them.

Source? All I can find is a joke tweet chain between him and aMSa.

 

[FullMoon]

It kinda sucks to lose our one rep, but eh, I can live. aMSa didn't exactly drop Greninja either so that only means we probably won't see Greninja place high at EVO.

Though I'm guessing if aMSa starts struggling with Pikachu he's probably gonna try Greninja.

 

[AvariceX]

I honestly can't wait for the day customs become the standard. I won a fairly sizeable local tourney yesterday (still surprised we got so many people for a local: http://goes.challonge.com/SSB4_WiiU_03) using Diddy Kong and taking out @DavemanCozy along the way (he got me in Winners' though). I'm glad I made the switch because Diddy is really fun and taking me places but honestly it took 3 weeks for me to learn the character well enough to dethrone the guy who had been winning all of our tournaments for months. Either way it's still not the character I want to play; when customs become the norm I'm going back to either WFT, Palutena, Greninja, Link, or Mega Man and I know I'll be playing a better, more enjoyable game even though my "income" will be at greater risk (and I need that Evo fund).

Just the fact that I can seriously consider playing so many lower/mid tier characters in tournament is awesome. As it is in non-customs meta I don't see any reason why I would ever not pick Diddy, Sheik, or Rosalina if I actually wanted to win (assuming I actually knew how to play the latter two).

Edit: Forgot the more on-topic stuff: character impressions, particularly changes in them. Little Mac is a lot better than I thought, fighting him feels like fighting fast Ganondorf, it's just terrifying until you can force him into a juggle position (at which point he's not nearly as threatening as Ganondorf of course). Yoshi fights Diddy really well, it's still not in Yoshi's favour but I'm thinking of finding a counterpick for this match just in case because I really don't like it. Fox jab-jab shenanigans are some BS but I can't really complain while playing the chimp.

 

[Superbat]

Chef_Pac on twitter said that he dropped Pac-Man for pit and other characters. #Thestruggle
Sorry about my post about Seagull. Wasn't really thinking when I made that post. Check his twitter. 100% sure I saw him post something like that

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I have nightmares of Ikes tempest. I'm tossing and turning screaming "diddy save us" to no avail as the monkey gets blown away in the fury of super wind box. Then Ike turns around after his bloodless destruction of monkey and turns to my Shulk yelling "Should've played Kirby son".

Am I mad for thinking Tempest is one of the silliest moves in this game?

 

[COLINBG]

Not surprised, she suits his overly defensive playstyle more.
But now we lost some representation...

Good thing we still have chef pac. I like his playstyle more.

Losing representation for an underrepresented character is always huge. I really like Koolaid.