Character Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

I think DAir hitting through ebt and spiking Villager is enough of an answer. Not to mention shielding at the ledge, which everyone can do.

I've found Rush to be the most useful. The invincibility/intangibility? Has saved me a couple times from bowling balls, and the instant vertical helps against slingshots. I don't have any experience with the other 2 in the MU, but T Hold seems like you're just asking to get gimped/edge guarded.


Edit: back to Luigi, as people just get better at the game, his weaknesses are going to get exploited more. Yes, Rosa needs to avoid getting grabbed (so does mega and everyone), but they have the tools to do so. It just takes good defensive play.

Shield + Leaf Shield/Plant Barrier has its greatest use in the Villager matchup, I think.

 

[Firefoxx]

Eh, this part was useless and I overreacted to Cobbs. I can see how my semantics post came across. Guess I need an editor every once in a while too

Edit 2: To actually get on topic (a bit) I actually don't see Falcon doing particularly well in the customs meta. His recovery, which is already a large problem for him, becomes a massive liability in customs play. Falcon strike doesn't do enough to cover this weakness because it doesn't go far enough, and it doesn't even matter because many times the command grab on Dive is the only reason he's actually able to combat attempts to gimp him. Mario and Doc, two characters that were already an issue, become massive problems for him. Cape + wind = one super dead birdman.

On top of all of this, he gets basically nothing out of customs himself. Dash punch is a slight improvement on a worthless move. Lighting kick combos into f-smash and knee but good luck landing it. neither raptor boost gives him more recovery. AND his overall tankiness is far less impressive in a world filled with very strong KO set-ups

 

[Terotrous]

I know that. As I pointed out 2 posts down, he needs to be more mindful of his public image

Uhhh... I don't want to beat a dead horse, but M2K's credibility about these issues has never been the best. He's quite famous for making off the cuff statements about what is or isn't OP / banworthy (generally, anything he loses to).

Dude is a great player, but I don't really take his suggestions regarding metagame balance very seriously. I don't think it's something he's very heavily invested in (probably since he has enough skill at the game that the game balance doesn't affect him as much). When he makes a silly statement like this, generally we just have a good laugh and move on.

 

[Firefoxx]

Uhhh... I don't want to beat a dead horse, but M2K's credibility about these issues has never been the best. He's quite famous for making off the cuff statements about what is or isn't OP / banworthy (generally, anything he loses to).

Dude is a great player, but I don't really take his suggestions regarding metagame balance very seriously. I don't think it's something he's very heavily invested in (probably since he has enough skill at the game that the game balance doesn't affect him as much). When he makes a silly statement like this, generally we just have a good laugh and move on.

I LOLM2K at basically every word that comes out of his mouth, dont worry

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Isn't O.T Hawk actually considered quite good now in SSF2T? I recall he had some shenanigans where he could repeatedly tick you with his command grab or something.

I just meant SF4, honestly.

If you're talking about SF4, I'm pretty sure the only good thing about T Hawk is Condor Spire. There was some Japanese T.Hawk at some majors last year who shook things up a bit, but yeah, the character doesn't seem that strong. Maybe he got better in Ultra, but no one really plays him.

He did not get better in Ultra. He lost cr.mk->condor spire as a reliable option (which was really important), and gained a red focus combo that you need a clean jump-in to land. Condor Spire is good right up until the point the opponent realizes, "Hang on, I can just DP this on reaction". And then you're done. This character is ass.

Luigi's ground mobility is far from great (same run speed as Ike) and his air mobility is awful. Poor speed + poor range = able to get walled out. Add in his traction issues, which makes some things safe on block, and a bad dash attack (not unusable, but still bad). His saving grace in neutral is his fireballs, PP/pivot jump canceled up smash, and crawl.

If you can disrespect his fireball game and play mid-range to where rolls end up in front of you, you win neutral and win it hard.
[/quote

Makes sense. Thanks for explaining that to me.

 

[Terotrous]

He did not get better in Ultra. He lost cr.mk->condor spire as a reliable option (which was really important), and gained a red focus combo that you need a clean jump-in to land. Condor Spire is good right up until the point the opponent realizes, "Hang on, I can just DP this on reaction". And then you're done. This character is ***.

Probably. There's a reason very few T.Hawks have ever done much of anything, and even with matchup unfamiliarity the few T.Hawks that exist aren't winning anything substantial. I think much of the problem is that Capcom doesn't seem to know what archetype they want T.Hawk to be. Is he a grappler? Is he a footsies character? Burst movement? Combos? Who the hell knows.

Say what you want about Hugo's matchup spread, at least the guy has the tools to do what he needs to do. He gets you in a corner, then you die. That's sensible grappler design. If he has significant viability problems it's likely due hybrid zoners who have too much damage output, like Evil Ryu, but he's a problem for almost everyone.

Honestly, the design of a character like Hugo is much more what I'd like out of grapplers in this game. When he gets in your face, it's completely terrifying. Sure, it's really hard for him to get there, but if he does, watch out. Compare this to someone like Bowser, for example, and he's not nearly as threatening (in fact, Bowser's best tool is unquestionably his UpB OOS, which requires you to pressure him!). I also note that when most people look for tools for characters to get better they're looking for mobility options like the Bowser Wavedash that allow them to play more like lighter characters, rather than ways or just making them deal additional damage.

 

[Superbat]

SeagullJoe's post on twitter about banning customs and changing timer (which I agree on) is getting popular on twitter. Should we be worried?

 

[Locke 06]

We? You act as if everyone loves customs. Even if 80% or whatever of the community likes it, 20% doesn't.

Not to bring this up, but there are valid arguments against the custom metagame. Ignoring that is just silly.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

SeagullJoe's post on twitter about banning customs and changing timer (which I agree on) is getting popular on twitter. Should we be worried?

Unless he can get something together in 4 days or less there's no chance he'll be able to get customs banned from EVO. So I'm not worried on that specific front.

What is worrisome is how a lot of the calls for custom bans seem to be driven by salt, and how there seems to be a lot of people that agree with the idea.

 

[HeavyLobster]

We? You act as if everyone loves customs. Even if 80% or whatever of the community likes it, 20% doesn't.

Not to bring this up, but there are valid arguments against the custom metagame. Ignoring that is just silly.

True enough. It's impossible to really learn all viable custom builds, and all you can do is prepare for the most common ones. Especially with 2 stocks giving you less time to adjust, it's way too easy to get beaten by a gimmick set in tourney. I still think the pros of customs outweigh the cons, but the cons are still there.

 

[PUK]

Best of 3 destroys gimmick viability in itself: you still need skill to win.
And 2 stock is a US thing, 3 stock is still played a lot.

 

[AKC12]

Anyone who frequents Reddit should be aware of this, but if not: http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/3930427?t=7h31m51s

ESAM (Pikachu with Heavy Skull Bash) goes for a read that MVD would not jump after getting down thrown and either do an air dodge or an aerial. He does just that and kills Diddy at 40% before the hit at Castle Siege.

I must say even if it is a difficult move to sweetspot, and its long end lag, that move seems quite overpowered. And playing on a larger stage wouldn't make it any less absurd really. It needed a read to land, but the punish is way too strong. If there are guaranteed, not too difficult to perform set ups to land this move on most of the cast, I would consider banning this move.

 

[Terotrous]

SeagullJoe's post on twitter about banning customs and changing timer (which I agree on) is getting popular on twitter. Should we be worried?

Considering that his post about how customs make Smash 4 too defensive has 3 likes I'm not terribly concerned.

Incidentally, I feel that the only valid argument against customs is that they're still kind of unexplored and using a big tournament like Evo as a testing ground is potentially risky, but I still think it should be done.

Anyone who frequents Reddit should be aware of this, but if not: http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/3930427?t=7h31m51s

ESAM (Pikachu with Heavy Skull Bash) goes for a read that MVD would not jump after getting down thrown and either do an air dodge or an aerial. He does just that and kills Diddy at 40% before the hit at Castle Siege.

No DI? Based on the slow speed at which he reached the blast zone I feel like that was survivable. Someone test it.

 

[deepseadiva]

Anyone who frequents Reddit should be aware of this, but if not: http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/3930427?t=7h31m51s

ESAM (Pikachu with Heavy Skull Bash) goes for a read that MVD would not jump after getting down thrown and either do an air dodge or an aerial. He does just that and kills Diddy at 40% before the hit at Castle Siege.

I must say even if it is a difficult move to sweetspot, and its long end lag, that move seems quite overpowered. And playing on a larger stage wouldn't make it any less absurd really. It needed a read to land, but the punish is way too strong. If there are guaranteed, not too difficult to perform set ups to land this move on most of the cast, I would consider banning this move.

LMAO amazing.

I am 300% for anything that gets Diddy mains to start rage quitting.

 

[Locke 06]

True enough. It's impossible to really learn all viable custom builds, and all you can do is prepare for the most common ones. Especially with 2 stocks giving you less time to adjust, it's way too easy to get beaten by a gimmick set in tourney. I still think the pros of customs outweigh the cons, but the cons are still there.

Considering that his post about how customs make Smash 4 too defensive has 3 likes I'm not terribly concerned.

Incidentally, I feel that the only valid argument against customs is that they're still kind of unexplored and using a big tournament like Evo as a testing ground is potentially risky, but I still think it should be done.

The more valid argument is how it turns characters into focused on their specials when in customs off, it's not.

Yes, you can adapt, but which game would you rather play? And that is a serious and completely subjective question that nobody should have qualms about. If I wanted 1.0.0 3ds tournaments to be standard, because I found that game more fun than post-patch smash 4, other than logistics, who's to say it can't be?

Edit to bring this full circle: Likewise, if someone wants to play the non-custom meta game as the standard, they now can't. And that's disappointing to those who enjoy it more than the custom meta game.


Edit harder: I'd really like to end this conversation though. It really doesn't belong here, nor is it productive. EVO is running customs, therefore customs are standard for the time being. #adapt

 

[Firefoxx]

LMAO amazing.

I am 300% for anything that gets Diddy mains to start rage quitting.

That was the funniest thing. ESAM's face and MVD's reaction was pure gold

That Skull Bash seems like it can be used for some really nasty frame traps, but MVD should have known to not try and challenge it by that point. I didn't watch the whole thing, but the way the commentators were talking made it seem like ESAM had been using that move quite a bit all night. MVD tried the general Diddy get-out-of-jail-free up air, misspaced/timed it and got wrecked. Had he done a much safer play like just getting some space he would have been fine.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Yeah, apparently MVD was sent to Loser's by Heavy Skull Bash already, so this just added to his salt. By the 3rd or 4th time of getting hit by it he really should have realized how strong it was and not try to challenge it, especially in that situation.

 

[Terotrous]

LMAO amazing.

I am 300% for anything that gets Diddy mains to start rage quitting.

I didn't want to go there, but I agree, if you play Diddy you have no right to complain about anything being overpowered. What about everyone who wanted to rage quit when they got hoo hawed for the millionth time?

From a lot of these players the complaints really just seem like "With customs on, other characters can potentially beat my broken character. Customs suck!"

So long Chimp Legion. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The more valid argument is how it turns characters into focused on their specials when in customs off, it's not.

There's still quite a number of characters who are very heavily focused on their specials.

Yes, you can adapt, but which game would you rather play? And that is a serious and completely subjective question that nobody should have qualms about. If I wanted 1.0.0 3ds tournaments to be standard, because I found that game more fun than post-patch smash 4, other than logistics, who's to say it can't be?

The rest of the community who doesn't want that to be the standard.

Edit to bring this full circle: Likewise, if someone wants to play the non-custom meta game as the standard, they now can't. And that's disappointing to those who enjoy it more than the custom meta game.

They can still play with friends or on For Glory or whatever. Tournament standard is never guaranteed to be the mode you personally like the best.

 

[deepseadiva]

The more valid argument is how it turns characters into focused on their specials when in customs off, it's not.

The automatic default game is "Diddy Kong's Grab". It also costs us about 10+ worthwhile characters being artificially nerfed.

Customs is the better game, in my humble opinion. I know there's fear that customs make it a worse game, citing Villager and DK primarily. But the more we're actually seeing of those two, the less powerful and game-destroying they really are turning out to be. Aggressive characters with aggressive strategies are looking to be the dominant forces with customs on. Diddy is still top. Palutena enters the arena. DK is not a campy character, despite how dumb his Mach Tornado is. Among... many others.

PLUS we finally get to play with the Miis legitimately.

The pros are overwhelming. I also SEE the cons - I just do not believe them. If anything they're closer to fear mongering.

 

[Firefoxx]

Yeah, apparently MVD was sent to Loser's by Heavy Skull Bash already, so this just added to his salt. By the 3rd or 4th time of getting hit by it he really should have realized how strong it was and not try to challenge it, especially in that situation.

Not only that, he gets hit by the EXACT SAME SET UP at the end of the game before this one.

 

[NairWizard]

Heavy Skull Bash is one of Pikachu's best moves. It's like a stronger f-smash with twice the range. It does have some significant endlag, though, if you miss. I've gotten up-aired by Diddy for using it before, though at first it netted me many kills.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Probably. There's a reason very few T.Hawks have ever done much of anything, and even with matchup unfamiliarity the few T.Hawks that exist aren't winning anything substantial. I think much of the problem is that Capcom doesn't seem to know what archetype they want T.Hawk to be. Is he a grappler? Is he a footsies character? Burst movement? Combos? Who the hell knows.

Say what you want about Hugo's matchup spread, at least the guy has the tools to do what he needs to do. He gets you in a corner, then you die. That's sensible grappler design. If he has significant viability problems it's likely due hybrid zoners who have too much damage output, like Evil Ryu, but he's a problem for almost everyone.

Honestly, the design of a character like Hugo is much more what I'd like out of grapplers in this game. When he gets in your face, it's completely terrifying. Sure, it's really hard for him to get there, but if he does, watch out. Compare this to someone like Bowser, for example, and he's not nearly as threatening (in fact, Bowser's best tool is unquestionably his UpB OOS, which requires you to pressure him!). I also note that when most people look for tools for characters to get better they're looking for mobility options like the Bowser Wavedash that allow them to play more like lighter characters, rather than ways or just making them deal additional damage.

if you think that dash slash does not increase his damage output your crazy that move is combo central and for someone like bowser thats way more damage.

 

[Terotrous]

if you think that dash slash does not increase his damage output your crazy that move is combo central and for someone like bowser thats way more damage.

Oh it does, it's just not the way I would choose to improve someone like Bowser. He's supposed to be big and slow. The answer to "how do you make him better" isn't just "make him faster / more mobile", that's just detracting from his archetype.

 

[Locke 06]

The automatic default game is "Diddy Kong's Grab". It also costs us about 10+ worthwhile characters being artificially nerfed.

Customs is the better game, in my humble opinion. I know there's fear that customs make it a worse game, citing Villager and DK primarily. But the more we're actually seeing of those two, the less powerful and game-destroying they really are turning out to be. Aggressive characters with aggressive strategies are looking to be the dominant forces with customs on. Diddy is still top. Palutena enters the arena. DK is not a campy character, despite how dumb his Mach Tornado is. Among... many others.

PLUS we finally get to play with the Miis legitimately.

The pros are overwhelming. I also SEE the cons - I just do not believe them. If anything they're closer to fear mongering.

Playing devil's advocate, it sounds like you're fear mongering Diddy Kong's grab. -shrugs-

On topic: Does Diddy invalidate characters? I thought people were trying to find matchups more lobsided than 30-70 and came up with Mega vs X and MK vs Mac.

Who are Diddy's best MU's?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Oh it does, it's just not the way I would choose to improve someone like Bowser. He's supposed to be big and slow. The answer to "how do you make him better" isn't just "make him faster / more mobile", that's just detracting from his archetype.

Default Bowser is big and fairly fast. Even in Brawl Bowser had decent mobility. Bowser's also got the highest top speed in Mario Kart, if it really matters. Bowser has become over the past two games a more mobile heavyweight like DK as opposed to Ganon and Dedede who are the true Mighty Glaciers. Dash Slash fits his archetype just fine.

 

[NairWizard]

What is this I read about aMSa switching to Pikachu?

 

[Terotrous]

Default Bowser is big and fairly fast. Even in Brawl Bowser had decent mobility. Bowser's also got the highest top speed in Mario Kart, if it really matters. Bowser has become over the past two games a more mobile heavyweight like DK as opposed to Ganon and Dedede who are the true Mighty Glaciers. Dash Slash fits his archetype just fine.

I feel like Bowser is actually closest to being a tank, due to his strong defensive capabilities. He's definitely not quite as hyper offensive as someone like Ganon. Dedede is weird. He was a zoner of sorts in Brawl (albeit one who could also do a chaingrab), but now I'm not sure what he's supposed to be.

 

[Gunla]

What is this I read about aMSa switching to Pikachu?

From the Greninja social:

naturally I keep playing Greninja!! especially customs off! but his customs doesn't change his metagame:/

— aMSa 🎮 🇯🇵 02/14-16 Genesis X2 (@aMSaRedYoshi) March 23, 2015

It seems that he's playing Pikachu when customs are on, primarily.

 

[deepseadiva]

Playing devil's advocate, it sounds like you're fear mongering Diddy Kong's grab. -shrugs-

I don't need to scare anyone to convince people Diddy is very dominant under automatic defaults. Diddy Kong has dozens of tournaments under his belt.

Customs Villiger has... 0? And needs fear to convince people to tweet about banning him and all his friends.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I, for one, welcome our new rodent overlords.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Pikachu's metagame is changed by customs?

That's news to me. I thought the only thing usable is Heavy Skull Bash, with a bit of that Thunder Jolt custom.

 

[Nobie]

One thing to keep in mind is that Diddy's poor aerial mobility actually factored in this time around. If he'd been a character who can drift further away, the damage would've been lessened. Maybe he can Monkey Flip away from Pikachu.

What I find interesting on all of this is that on the one hand, you have the utlra defensive, time-stalling play of Customs Villager, and on the other, you have the extreme punishes of Customs Pikachu, who can end a stock at 40-60% with a good read. What happens when these two styles collide? What if JTails had known about Heavy Skull Bash going into the match against ADHD?

The very fact that you have these two custom characters with completely different styles pop up at two different tournaments on the same weekend leads me to believe that we're being a bit premature to label the Customs metagame as ultra-turtley or hyper aggression. Heck, what if it turns out to be a game where turtling is powerful but precarious, and one mistake will lead to dying at 60%? What do you even call that (besides "fighting Ganondorf")?

 

[Strangelove13]

The automatic default game is "Diddy Kong's Grab". It also costs us about 10+ worthwhile characters being artificially nerfed.

The more we're actually seeing of those two, the less powerful and game-destroying they really are turning out to be. Aggressive characters with aggressive strategies are looking to be the dominant forces with customs on. Diddy is still top.

I fully agree with this. We have had at least a full month + of tournaments using customs and still nothing broken has been shown, yet people continue to parrot "custom moves are broken" as if it's some kind of universal truth.

Donkey Kong gets his tornado which is undeniably very strong but with clear weaknesses as has been discussed in this thread already. Also, despite all the "brokeness" of his moves, he hasn't won a single one of these tournaments yet. Yes, he has gotten close, but if Kong Cyclone is so broken then he should be winning the majority of these.

Rosalina becomes a fearsome character with her customs, but even Dabuz, the best Rosalina player in the world, could not beat DEFAULT Diddy. He has actually also been playing more aggressively with them on.

Villager gets his trip sapling and exploding balloons but even a world class player trying to abuse them could not beat 2 DEFAULT characters, also I haven't seen a Villager yet place above top 5.

Pikachu get's an upgrade to a move that was pretty useless before, only serving as a means for horizontal recovery. But now that it is actually an option people are up in arms.

I tend to watch a lot of these pro players streaming and I always hear them talk about how these moves are "broken" and "stupid" and "janky" but I almost never see them actually lab it up and try to find a counter to these moves, or try to fight a proficient Donkey Kong for example to find ways to counter the Cyclone(I'm not talking about ALL pro players, I'm sure there are plenty of ones that do). If people would take a day, find a DK player and practice practice practice I'm sure they would find plenty of ways around it, and perhaps once you are familiar with the move it won't seem so "broken" but simply just "very good".

 

[Gunla]

Pikachu's metagame is changed by customs?

That's news to me. I thought the only thing usable is Heavy Skull Bash, with a bit of that Thunder Jolt custom.

Here's a great example of why that custom alone is quite powerful.

 

[Remzi]

Oh it does, it's just not the way I would choose to improve someone like Bowser. He's supposed to be big and slow. The answer to "how do you make him better" isn't just "make him faster / more mobile", that's just detracting from his archetype.

I have a fundamental issue with this type of character design. A big, slow, character that hits hard will never excel in a game like Smash. You don't need to reduce a character's speed to balance his strength, his strength is already balanced by the fact that his frame is so big.

That's why I love Bowser's Smash4 design, fast and powerful, but balanced by the fact that he is so big (very weak in disadvantageous states, combo food).

 

[COLINBG]

It's impossible to really learn all viable custom builds, and all you can do is prepare for the most common ones. Especially with 2 stocks giving you less time to adjust, it's way too easy to get beaten by a gimmick set in tourney. I still think the pros of customs outweigh the cons, but the cons are still there.

It's possible, just hard. That's why it's called competitive.

And keep in mind Sm4sh (and customs) has been out for a short time. Brawl came out 7 years after Melee. Sm4sh came out 6 years after Brawl. If it continues like this, it means we still have several years left to learn how to play with customs.

The possibility of learning customs, and the rapidity at which you can do it, should not be an argument in the debate of wheter or not to allow them.

 

[Castell]

Pikachu's metagame is changed by customs?

That's news to me. I thought the only thing usable is Heavy Skull Bash, with a bit of that Thunder Jolt custom.

To be honest, those two customs are pretty game changing for Pikachu. ESAM talked about in the post-tournament interview. Pikachu as a character, excels at racking up damage but can only kill with a hard read or if the opponent doesn't DI the up-throw to Thunder. Factor in the Thunder Wave, which stuns enemy for Kills with Smash attacks (trade off being half damage and much less range so it's not broken), and Heavy Skull Bash which hits as hard as F-Smash or as hard as like Bowser's fully charged F-smash when charged, which it takes even less time to charge then the normal Skull Bash AND comes out much faster than F-smash. The only down side is the more end lag. But remember this is on Pikachu. Only heavies should be getting kills at <50% with hard reads and slow moves, but Pikachu is getting them for much less. It's kind of like Link's Power Bow before it got nerfed, except that Link needed to fully charge it and Link wasn't already a really good character with manageable flaws.

This is probably going to be the next "Broken custom of the Week". It seems customs haven't been fully integrated into the community yet, which certainly hurts the idea of having them at EVO.

 

[Hippieslayer]

tons of moves that are in the customless metagame can kill at ridiculous percents if you don't know wtf to do against them/don't see them coming

imagine if rest was a custom move for instance, there would be the same omg borke da geme!!! bann!! cries

 

[Road Death Wheel]

tons of moves that are in the customless metagame can kill at ridiculous percents if you don't know wtf to do against them/don't see them coming

imagine if rest was a custom move for instance, there would be the same omg borke da geme!!! bann!! cries

jiggs already has garenteed kill set up at 70% with customs too.

 

[Hippieslayer]

imagine if zero suits Up-B was a custom? BORKE BANN NAUW CUSTOMS R BORKE NO CUSTOMZ

not to mention a ****ton of other moves, more come to mind all the time lol