Character Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

Characters who are strong in advantage, disadvantage, and neutral (customs off, no Miis):



Notice a trend?

They're all Top/High Tier except for Meta Knight lol. You could probably argue a few others up in here or a few off, but the point is that it's a very short list full of great characters. Customs expands the list ever so slightly (Mario and Palutena come to mind, as well as some Mii builds), but it's fewer than 10 characters out of a cast of ~51.

Always remember the game states, friends. You won't always be mindlessly making combo videos out of your opponents. Most of your game time will be spent finding a way in (neutral) or minimizing damage taken (disadvantage).

Wait, what makes Yoshi strong at disadvantage? Is it the super-armor on his double jump?

And if only Greninja had a strong neutral...

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Wait, what makes Yoshi strong at disadvantage? Is it the super-armor on his double jump?

And if only Greninja had a strong neutral...

his air speed and nair.

 

[NairWizard]

"Victory Top Tier is my destiny!"

Seriously though, you keep calling the good characters early. Reminds me a bit of Chrisis when she posted on the UMvC3 boards.

#ChrisisWasRight

lol, I'm glad my Harvard education paid some dividends.

did I mention that customs Mario is the best character in the game yet

Wait, what makes Yoshi strong at disadvantage? Is it the super-armor on his double jump?

And if only Greninja had a strong neutral...

Greninja's neutral is pretty good (he's got scary mobility), but he can't approach too well, and his disadvantage is kinda bleh because he relies on Hydro Pump to get out of bad situations. His n-air is mediocre.

Yoshi is good because of a great b-reverse, n-air (and the threat of down-b sometimes), super armor on his 2nd jump, and great aerial mobility.

Meta Knight isn't strong in neutral wtf

His neutral isn't as good as Sheik's neutral, but 6 jumps + great dash attack/grab + great ground mobility is basically all you need to play a good neutral game. It's hard to get Meta Knight to mess up. It's also hard to projectile camp him due to his size (in addition to those 6 jumps). Definitely one of the better neutrals in the game.

Once you get out of the "must have good short hop aerial" mentality, some characters like Greninja and Meta Knight really open up in neutral.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Bias talking, but I'd put Wario as another character that is strong at neutral, advantage and disadvantage*, personally.

*As long as he has the bike (although there's rarely any reason for him not to)

 

[Antonykun]

"Victory Top Tier is my destiny!"

Seriously though, you keep calling the good characters early. Reminds me a bit of Chrisis when she posted on the UMvC3 boards.

#ChrisisWasRight

@ NairWizard senpai call Villager

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's neutral is pretty good (he's got scary mobility), but he can't approach too well, and his disadvantage is kinda bleh because he relies on Hydro Pump to get out of bad situations. His n-air is mediocre.

I suppose. His disadvantage is pretty good I'd say, if you angle Hydro Pump properly you can do some fun tricks, that can make Greninja revert right back to advantage by making the opponent go above him thanks to the water, if they happened to be jumping after you, and Greninja loves when the opponent is above him. It's a bit trickier to get him out of disadvantage with Hydro Pump, but it can have a lot of reward. His great airspeed and fall speed also help him get back to the ground with less trouble if he's getting juggled.

By the way, SolidSense, what do you think of the Greninja/Meta Knight MU? I've heard people say it's a hard MU for Greninja to win and I can see the reasons why (Shuttle Loop is really scary), but I'm not very sure about it. I don't have much experience going against him myself so I was hoping to get more input on that.

 

[Vincent21]

*As long as he has the bike (although there's rarely any reason for him not to)

 

[Spinosaurus]

I was gonna clarify Villager actually. That MU is annoying for this very reason lol.

 

[Mr. Johan]

SolidSense is the same bloke who had Robin as 3rd best in the game a long ways back, so his predictions aren't quite 100%. :V =P

 

[etecoon]

Meta Knight isn't strong in neutral wtf

He is if you look at him as new character with the trends of this game, strong dash attack/grab in a game where no one can seamlessly wall that well, MK wasn't the only character that lost that ability, great ground speed, a great character at rollsies which is disturbingly a thing in this game, has multiple jumps and falls faster than he used to so his mixups out of jumping around with dair are good

MK isn't exactly top tier, but he is still pretty strong in every phase of the game. His neutral now just revolves around baits and getting in, lack of strong zoning doesn't mean weak in neutral. He might not be Sheik, but upper half of the cast in this regard? I can't see why not

 

[A2ZOMG]

SolidSense is the same bloke who had Robin as 3rd best in the game a long ways back, so his predictions aren't quite 100%. :V =P

Nobody is perfect.

And just to be accurate, I'm pretty sure I was hyping Metaknight long before anyone else during the 3DS era. I never claimed he was top tier, just he was definitely underestimated and that Tornado was a seriously amazing move.

No I'd say 50-50.

Ikes options are just as valid, maybe with the Dif that Ike is one of those characters you can use Monado Shield on and it not simply be a "I dun wanna die" reaction.

It's funny as with them both being disjointed, they can play out of each others jab range entirely less they want to go for grabs and shulk has the advantage when it comes to getting a grab due to Monado Speed. Basically for them to be in jab range of each other, one or both of them is mis-spacing by normal conventions when not aiming for grabs. Plus I'd call Air Slash the more punitive OOS option. However their ranges aren't that different at all, and Ike can very well find himself in shulks space and prepared ot hit earlier with a Dtilt. Which can be jumped over but this creates an interesting decision in the fight itself.

I want to say Ike wins on customs but that's based on presumption since the main concern when I think of that is the Windbox and I haven't tested its counter-play options at all and I am a full believer that Decisive Monado arts is absolutely real life.

Monado Shield is so terrible...dunno why Shulk mains ever use it honestly.

Whenever I see a Shulk use Monado Shield, I grab him, throw him upwards, and watch his demise unfold.

 

[Vincent21]

He is if you look at him as new character with the trends of this game, strong dash attack/grab in a game where no one can seamlessly wall that well, MK wasn't the only character that lost that ability, great ground speed, a great character at rollsies which is disturbingly a thing in this game, has multiple jumps and falls faster than he used to so his mixups out of jumping around with dair are good

MK isn't exactly top tier, but he is still pretty strong in every phase of the game. His neutral now just revolves around fake outs and getting in, lack of strong zoning doesn't mean weak in neutral. He might not be Sheik, but upper half of the cast in this regard? I can't see why not

Bolded Part: This is kinda one of the reasons we (although I can't speak for @ NairWizard but it sure applies to me) are excited about Mii Gunner.

He can. He can wall that. Decisively, and with ease.

 

[NairWizard]

SolidSense is the same bloke who had Robin as 3rd best in the game a long ways back, so his predictions aren't quite 100%. :V =P

Yeah, I messed up when I thought that Robin was that good in this game. I still believe that she's pretty good in a customs meta--it's just that there are certain holes in her attack patterns that are easy to exploit once you've fought her a few dozen times (rolling past Arcfire is an example of something that I wasn't doing back then which I know now to do). I also stick by my assertion that if Ganon had Thoron over Warlock Punch he would be top 5.

By the way, just for the record, I make no guarantees that my claims are accurate (looks like other people are doing that for me, which is amusing). Like everyone else here, I'm using some judgment and my experiences to make educated guesses about the future viability of characters.

By the way, SolidSense, what do you think of the Greninja/Meta Knight MU? I've heard people say it's a hard MU for Greninja to win and I can see the reasons why (Shuttle Loop is really scary), but I'm not very sure about it. I don't have much experience going against him myself so I was hoping to get more input on that.

So in theory this goes heavily in MK's favor because MK is scary when he gets Greninja in the air, but in my experience (and again, I haven't played aMSa, and I think playing him is pretty much necessary to get a good grasp of what Greninja can do in certain MUs, since he's so far ahead of the Greninja metagame), it's closer to even because Greninja outranges MK on the ground, which is kinda annoying since they both play reactive ground games. Greninja's jab beats out MK's approaches, dash attack is hard to punish, and dash grab seems to reach for an eternity (I was never aware that it was frame 9; that's kinda crazy).

 

[warionumbah2]

Meta Knight was unnecessarily bad pre patch, he had no kill setups of cause of vectoring and his Nair,his main edgeguard tool, was nerfed in kill power.

After patch he gained kill setups and a stronger Nair, but the 3ds version has crappy controls and larger blastzones so his Shuttle Loop killed later.

Its only now MK went from "low tier his hitboxes don't match, nerfed range, ugh lag, nerf knight" to "He's a solid high tier, he has a good neutral,advantage and disadvantage state like the top tiers".

Wonder which character will get this treatment next? Mii Gunner now that customs are on?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Monado Shield is so terrible...dunno why Shulk mains ever use it honestly.

Whenever I see a Shulk use Monado Shield, I grab him, throw him upwards, and watch his demise unfold.

Its an I don't want to die reaction, but it only really works on a base level against slow projectileless enemies with heavy damage where you can abuse it for OoS options caused by the reduced shieldstun and pushback. Lately its just an M-cancel option. Not that throwing upwards is that big a deal given the Shield monado often comes out at high%'s anyways and Shulk can switch to Jump during hitstun if the player is cognizant of it.

If you're all talking about MK praise the earliest praise I saw was from @ Shaya on first patch and why the buffs were significant.

 

[NairWizard]

If you're all talking about MK praise the earliest praise I saw was from @ Shaya on first patch and why the buffs were significant.

Yeah, @ Shaya was also on the Pikachu hype train well before I was. That was back in the 1.0.3. Rosalina dominance era even before Pikachu got his kill power buff which really made him nuts, because f-smash is great.

 

[Antonykun]

Only I will truly understand the full extent of this post

 

[Mr. Johan]

I dunno about Robin getting "pretty good" just by being in a customs meta. None of her customs save for Speed Thunder really cover any holes she may have had originally. Her Elwind customs are horrid, Goetia's bad, Distant Nos has a niche in Doubles, and Arcfire+ sucks. I guess Fire Wall can get some use, but it interferes with how Robin wants to zone and get her KOs. Plus Bouncing Fish goes over it and Monkey Flip Kick flat out ignores it, so lol.

Speed Thunder's great, but I doubt it's enough to push her a lot in customs. I'd put a lot more stock in Thunder+ if the move was unblockable, but ah well. But as of right now, I think Robin benefits the least in customs meta out of anyone besides Jigglypuff.

 

[FullMoon]

So in theory this goes heavily in MK's favor because MK is scary when he gets Greninja in the air, but in my experience (and again, I haven't played aMSa, and I think playing him is pretty much necessary to get a good grasp of what Greninja can do in certain MUs, since he's so far ahead of the Greninja metagame), it's closer to even because Greninja outranges MK on the ground, which is kinda annoying since they both play reactive ground games. Greninja's jab beats out MK's approaches, dash attack is hard to punish, and dash grab seems to reach for an eternity (I was never aware that it was frame 9; that's kinda crazy).

So around 55:45 Meta Knight's favor then? Greninja outranges him in pretty much all aspects that I can think of and can keep him at bay, but once Meta Knight gets in Greninja can be taken out very fast and he can't really do the same to MK.

By the way, it's not just aMSa. It seems Japan in general is just really ahead when it comes to Greninja's meta. I wonder if he's more popular there or something.

 

[Antonykun]

So around 55:45 Meta Knight's favor then? Greninja outranges him in pretty much all aspects that I can think of and can keep him at bay, but once Meta Knight gets in Greninja can be taken out very fast and he can't really do the same to MK.

By the way, it's not just aMSa. It seems Japan in general is just really ahead when it comes to Greninja's meta. I wonder if he's more popular there or something.

As far as I know Japanese players have a tendency to play the riskier, less meta characters who are still surprisingly good if you master them.
In the states we tend to pick the safer choice (not saying its bad tho).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I dunno about Robin getting "pretty good" just by being in a customs meta. None of her customs save for Speed Thunder really cover any holes she may have had originally. Her Elwind customs are horrid, Goetia's bad, Distant Nos has a niche in Doubles, and Arcfire+ sucks. I guess Fire Wall can get some use, but it interferes with how Robin wants to zone and get her KOs. Plus Bouncing Fish goes over it and Monkey Flip Kick flat out ignores it, so lol.

Speed Thunder's great, but I doubt it's enough to push her a lot in customs. I'd put a lot more stock in Thunder+ if the move was unblockable, but ah well. But as of right now, I think Robin benefits the least in customs meta out of anyone besides Jigglypuff.

I don't think I'm qualified enough to really make a call on Robin being good/bad/average, but Thoron+ is a fullscreen kill option if you get the chance to actually charge it all the way and Fire Wall doesn't fizzle out the moment it gets below Robin so maybe it's good for antijuggles? IDK, I'm grasping at straws here.

 

[Luco]

I was always saying MK wasn't as bad as people said he was, and on Pikachu my ideas were open (we really have no Pika players in Australia lawl!)

One thing I did call on early was that Gunner would be high/top tier. I feel so proud for that. <3

Something else I find funny is DHD and Bowser Jr, because they always seem to get connected in conversation (and they're very connected for me by virtue of they're both my secondaries), and how one always seems to be 'good' and the other 'bad' at differing point and in the end I suspect they'll both end up decently good. Maybe. Hopefully.

Anyway, Monado shield is weird. On one hand it's cool because it actually does keep Shulk alive, but on the other it really is one of those transformations where you're waiting him out. He does become combo fodder again, and occasionally his sudden lack of mobility can cause him to fail getting back on stage, but those are the rare occasions. What Shield really does is act as an extra timer where shulk can, for the most part, do what he wants without fear of dying. Except it lasts like 40 seconds (?), and as soon as it's done, it's done.

I wish I could explain my thought processes on it better, but whatevs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Its an I don't want to die reaction, but it only really works on a base level against slow projectileless enemies with heavy damage where you can abuse it for OoS options caused by the reduced shieldstun and pushback. Lately its just an M-cancel option. Not that throwing upwards is that big a deal given the Shield monado often comes out at high%'s anyways and Shulk can switch to Jump during hitstun if the player is cognizant of it.

If you're all talking about MK praise the earliest praise I saw was from @ Shaya on first patch and why the buffs were significant.

I mean, Monado Jump, Buster and Speed have definite practical uses and are in general pretty good given their downsides can be safely played around. Smash is super risky but sometimes can pay off. Shield seems mostly terrible against people that know how it works. I mean I play Ganondorf, and whenever I see Shulk use Shield, I'm like "Wow! U-throw is a top tier move! No way!" Either I stall out Shield this way by just chasing his terrible landing repeatedly, or he switches to Jump and basically it's as if it was never really a good choice for him in the first place anyway.

 

[Antonykun]

I remember @ Thinkaman throwing praises at gunner before the game came out in the states.

 

[Ffamran]

I remember @ Thinkaman throwing praises at gunner before the game came out in the states.

I was defending Falco and look where it got me.

There's so many characters out there that not all of them will get their limelight. Luigi, Greninja, Pac-Man, and Olimar just got theirs, but only Luigi seems to be the one popular because he doesn't have to micromanage like the others. Sooner or later, Peach will, the Villager will, Meta Knight will, Ike will, Shulk will, Mii Brawler will, Mii Gunner will, and more. It's just that because the game's still young, the characters with the quickest and easiest results will be focused on like Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Sonic, and Rosalina & Luma.

 

[NairWizard]

I dunno about Robin getting "pretty good" just by being in a customs meta. None of her customs save for Speed Thunder really cover any holes she may have had originally. Her Elwind customs are horrid, Goetia's bad, Distant Nos has a niche in Doubles, and Arcfire+ sucks. I guess Fire Wall can get some use, but it interferes with how Robin wants to zone and get her KOs. Plus Bouncing Fish goes over it and Monkey Flip Kick flat out ignores it, so lol.

Speed Thunder's great, but I doubt it's enough to push her a lot in customs. I'd put a lot more stock in Thunder+ if the move was unblockable, but ah well. But as of right now, I think Robin benefits the least in customs meta out of anyone besides Jigglypuff.

Whoa, there's no way that Robin benefits the least in customs meta out of anyone other than Jigglypuff. Yoshi barely gets better (taking Lick is suicide; you need your top-tier command grab), Diddy doesn't even notice the difference between default and battering banana peel, Meta Knight prefers his default set almost always... there are several handfuls of characters who prefer non-customs to customs. And then there are other cases: Sonic mains will adamantly insist that Hammer Spin Dash isn't worth taking, and the Lucario forums similarly don't like his customs too much from what I've read--you can take these opinions with a grain of salt as those character mains are pretty accustomed to their non-custom characters, but in general there's a grain of truth there (though I think Hammer Spin Dash in particular is underrated because of the hop, but more on that another time).

Robin's Speed Thunder specifically improves her worst matchups, like Sheik. I know @Nairo at least thinks that Sheik is Robin's worst matchup, and Speed Thunder massages the pain a little. Speed Thunder is a good interrupt, and also a good way to pressure a Sheik who is just spacing carefully and pressuring (needles, f-air).

Thunder+, Fire Wall, and Distant Nosferatu (which conveniently has the same range as Arcfire, for a great mixup) are all great customs too in certain matchups, though of these Thunder+ is the most notable.

Thoron+ basically becomes her new gameplan; it isn't unblockable, but it hurts a lot, and also KOs. It basically forces approaches, which regular Thoron also does but not to nearly the same extent. You can't just let Robin charge up a 31% damage stage-length KO move. You need to go in against that. So Thoron+ doesn't do anything for matchups like Sonic, because Sonic already wants to approach you (and you want Speed Thunder for Sonic anyway), but I know that as Pikachu when I'm tjolt camping a Robin, I'm a lot more terrified of Thoron+ than Thoron, and I feel the need to go in. I would also totally take Thoron+ against Meta Knight, for example, because Meta Knight likes to hang back and wait for you to mess up.

Since it's only one charge, too, Robin gets the book immediately after using it, which is amazing both if you whiff and if you hit. If you hit a shield, great, now you have another immediate shield pressure tool. If you hit your opponent, great! You now have a KO tool. If your opponent is dead, also great, you have a neat way to start pressure on the next stock. The book is a great followup to Thoron+.

 

[meleebrawler]

I was always saying MK wasn't as bad as people said he was, and on Pikachu my ideas were open (we really have no Pika players in Australia lawl!)

One thing I did call on early was that Gunner would be high/top tier. I feel so proud for that. <3

Something else I find funny is DHD and Bowser Jr, because they always seem to get connected in conversation (and they're very connected for me by virtue of they're both my secondaries), and how one always seems to be 'good' and the other 'bad' at differing point and in the end I suspect they'll both end up decently good. Maybe. Hopefully.

Anyway, Monado shield is weird. On one hand it's cool because it actually does keep Shulk alive, but on the other it really is one of those transformations where you're waiting him out. He does become combo fodder again, and occasionally his sudden lack of mobility can cause him to fail getting back on stage, but those are the rare occasions. What Shield really does is act as an extra timer where shulk can, for the most part, do what he wants without fear of dying. Except it lasts like 40 seconds (?), and as soon as it's done, it's done.

I wish I could explain my thought processes on it better, but whatevs.

40 seconds??? Decisive Arts are half that.

One thing that Shield does that is useful at all percentages is that it makes Shulk's
actual shield stronger with less damage and pushback taken. This can let him punish
certain high-power moves more easily. Beyond that, it's main uses are potentially breaking low percent combos,
minimizing the damage taken in a disadvantaged state (useful given his atrocious air acceleration),
and looking for a killing blow at dangerous percents. In all cases you're probably going to switch out very quickly
as soon as a) the coast is clear, b) Shulk gets the upper hand somehow, or c) the opponent stalls out.
That last reason sounds bad, but if the opponent is apt to do this and Shulk is really feeling (:D) the pressure,
sometimes having about 16 seconds of safety can sound appealing.

Because the situations Shield is really useful in come and go fairly quickly, I think that it benefits
the most from Hyper Arts, because then Shulk REALLY doesn't care if you hit him during it.
You survive deathblows until ludicrous percents and take laughable damage from everything else.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I was defending Falco and look where it got me.

There's so many characters out there that not all of them will get their limelight. Luigi, Greninja, Pac-Man, and Olimar just got theirs, but only Luigi seems to be the one popular because he doesn't have to micromanage like the others. Sooner or later, Peach will, the Villager will, Meta Knight will, Ike will, Shulk will, Mii Brawler will, Mii Gunner will, and more. It's just that because the game's still young, the characters with the quickest and easiest results will be focused on like Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Sonic, and Rosalina & Luma.

Lab falco more friend their is more you could do. ill even mirror ya. if ya want.

 

[Ffamran]

Lab falco more friend their is more you could do. ill even mirror ya. if ya want.

I have midterms and projects coming up. So, it's not going to happen for a while.

 

[Antonykun]

You know for a guy with one really not that good projectile and a few meh disjoints Wario's defense is top notch

 

[Ffamran]

You know for a guy with one really not that good projectile and a few meh disjoints Wario's defence is top notch

Wario eats, literally eats projectiles and he moves through the air like he was a bird. I wished Falco was a bird. Oh, wait.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I have midterms and projects coming up. So, it's not going to happen for a while.

SCWEEEL yuch.

but good luck anywho.

 

[Antonykun]

Wario eats, literally eats projectiles and he moves through the air like he was a bird. I wished Falco was a bird. Oh, wait.

In my experience Wario should rarely eat any items the end-lag from doing so is just not worth it when you can just fly with the power of your fat

 

[Thinkaman]

I remember @ Thinkaman throwing praises at gunner before the game came out in the states.

I like the character, but for the life of me cannot kill. And if I am playing a zoning character with Duck-Hunt-tier KO issues... why am I not playing Duck Hunt?

 

[Antonykun]

Whoa, there's no way that Robin benefits the least in customs meta out of anyone other than Jigglypuff. Yoshi barely gets better (taking Lick is suicide; you need your top-tier command grab), Diddy doesn't even notice the difference between default and battering banana peel, Meta Knight prefers his default set almost always... there are several handfuls of characters who prefer non-customs to customs. And then there are other cases: Sonic mains will adamantly insist that Hammer Spin Dash isn't worth taking, and the Lucario forums similarly don't like his customs too much from what I've read--you can take these opinions with a grain of salt as those character mains are pretty accustomed to their non-custom characters, but in general there's a grain of truth there (though I think Hammer Spin Dash in particular is underrated because of the hop, but more on that another time).

Robin's Speed Thunder specifically improves her worst matchups, like Sheik. I know @Nairo at least thinks that Sheik is Robin's worst matchup, and Speed Thunder massages the pain a little. Speed Thunder is a good interrupt, and also a good way to pressure a Sheik who is just spacing carefully and pressuring (needles, f-air).

Thunder+, Fire Wall, and Distant Nosferatu (which conveniently has the same range as Arcfire, for a great mixup) are all great customs too in certain matchups, though of these Thunder+ is the most notable.

Thoron+ basically becomes her new gameplan; it isn't unblockable, but it hurts a lot, and also KOs. It basically forces approaches, which regular Thoron also does but not to nearly the same extent. You can't just let Robin charge up a 31% damage stage-length KO move. You need to go in against that. So Thoron+ doesn't do anything for matchups like Sonic, because Sonic already wants to approach you (and you want Speed Thunder for Sonic anyway), but I know that as Pikachu when I'm tjolt camping a Robin, I'm a lot more terrified of Thoron+ than Thoron, and I feel the need to go in. I would also totally take Thoron+ against Meta Knight, for example, because Meta Knight likes to hang back and wait for you to mess up.

Since it's only one charge, too, Robin gets the book immediately after using it, which is amazing both if you whiff and if you hit. If you hit a shield, great, now you have another immediate shield pressure tool. If you hit your opponent, great! You now have a KO tool. If your opponent is dead, also great, you have a neat way to start pressure on the next stock. The book is a great followup to Thoron+.

Thoron+ and Pocket makes for a scary nuke.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Also is hypervoice by any chance good for edge guarding? like it looks like it hits below the edge and covers a few get up options too.

 

[NairWizard]

I like the character, but for the life of me cannot kill. And if I am playing a zoning character with Duck-Hunt-tier KO issues... why am I not playing Duck Hunt?

KOing *looks* like one of Gunner's big weaknesses, but then again, it also looks like one of Pikachu's weaknesses at first. But Pikachu turns out to have some of the best KOing ability in the game once you get used to his weird way of setting up into KOs, so I'm confident when looking at Gunner's moveset that not being able to get KOs is a player limitation rather than a character limitation. The kit may have low knockback, but Gunner's setups and edgeguarding are pretty incredible (not to say that DHD's setups are not, especially with customs). Just have to find a way to tie it all together.

Also, I wonder if Samus' charge shot is worth taking for KOs, even though grenades are so great.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Also is hypervoice by any chance good for edge guarding? like it looks like it hits below the edge and covers a few get up options too.

I don't think so, mainly because when you grab the ledge first you have invincibility frames and Hyper Voice has gaps between each hitbox. I'm not even sure if it even hit that low either.

 

[Vincent21]

Only I will truly understand the full extent of this post

internet soooooooup ggs tho

I actually feel like the LM mu was waaaay better off than the villy boards said at first, and just that the ones they tested with were committing too hard.

I still think that's a little out of LM's favor obviously (no character that can edge like that leaves room for error on my part, after all) but what this made me realize is that LM isn't as stage ruined as even I (much less most people) think and have thought.

Like, in a pick-ban scenario even if FD gets slashed immediately you're not screwed. You can take this man to Battlefield just fine. His full hop reaches the side platforms, and having places to stand where you can avoid pressure from things like Shiek needles is actually beneficial. On top of that he can easily shark the two bottom platforms when he's not standing on them and therefore poses a real threat from the ground. Even in a disadvantaged mu like that one I never felt doomed because of the stage.

When you get to counterpicks, the only thing you're really, really trying to do is not get Duck Hunt. That's roughly it. Transition maps prevent you from getting camped out simply over the fact that no campable transition is permanent because... well... the map transitions. And outside of that you can survive most counterpicks bar Duck Hunt, at least off of the last Evo ruleset with a Pick 3 start. Since FD and Battlefield are both totally playable you can branch either or. And if for whatever reason FD isn't banned, after crossing out Smashville (the platform hates you, is out of your standard jump height, and forces you to make very camp-able commits) you're home free.

Lylat feels iffy to me tho... I wish I could actually try this stuff at home instead of from local events. My character knowledge is fine since I'm in there putting hours on the 3DS everyday but it's hard to stage test for the stages I just don't have =/ I'll delve into Lylat and the counterpicks I missed later. But my major point was a lot of people tend to discount Mac if he's on a non-FD stage at all, and that's simply incorrect. Battlefield is actually totally usable, and transition stages not only limit camping by nature, but also typically offer a lot of strong canvas for him to exploit in the form of walk-offs and favorable and grounded set-ups.

Stages may not be the death knell they were supposed to for this character. So if I get not only that, but real positive/even match-ups in higher ranks (which LM has most definitely) and playability despite the stage system (which, if testing on the stages I didn't cover talking here proves favorable I'd be willing to emphatically support) with the best ground game in the game I think I can support dispelling the standing bottom 5 notion of Mac. I only bring this up because before everyone kind of gave up on tier list structure in the tier list thread, that was an opinion that started off strong, and while it's lost steam ongoing, killing it feels like something I could do to put this character in more people's hands (at least as a counterpick) so his criminally ANTI-developed (the damage For Glory has done to his theory in the minds of players makes developing this character so hard) meta can actually gain traction. I wish I could go to events myself at this point. I might start uploading recorded replays... something! Vex stuffing a handful of people and like a handful of appearances and Apex is something, but not enough!

A character with a best anything, in which the "anything" is an entire vector of play (ground game), should not be this underrated.

Not to mention customs are neat, like the anti-air option offered with Grounding Blow, now allowing him to stuff people trying to space him with aerials. That's a really big deal. Like, seriously.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I also stick by my assertion that if Ganon had Thoron over Warlock Punch he would be top 5.

Somewhere Sheik is laughing at this statement. Rosalina too. He'd be much better, but still losing 60:40 or worse to two other top 5's does not bode well for him.