Character Competitive Impressions

[Ultinarok]

Doc's Tornado is pretty great off stage as well. Kills pretty early.

Greninja actually has a pretty solid offstage/edgeguard game in all honesty.

I know they can edgeguard, but it's not exactly safe as either because doc has bad recovery and greninja has a slow fair, weak bair, brief nair with a small duration, risky up b and side b and risky dair. I feel like they do better grounded, but that's just my two cents.

Like I said, mac is a way better example though.

So who do you all think will benefit most and least from having customs?

 

[Timbers]

To sum it up, Wolf Flash gives Fox a strong meteor, makes edgeguarding him more dangerous, makes his recovery less exploitable since Wolf Flash travels diagonally instead of straight, and it functions as a kill and sort of an anti air tool.

I do like the option of Fox having edgeguarding material, but iirc Wolf Flash has much less horizontal distance (most notably the end of the move cuts your horizontal recovery 100% as if you hit a wall).

It's a nifty option for anti-air, but not sure if it will realistically replace uair/bair pressure. It has a use on dthrow/fthrow followups, but the endlag is also there. Also makes recovering onto the stage a poor option, or resetting to neutral.

I'm curious how it will play out and I'm only speculating, but I'd hate to be in a position where I have to rely on upB more often than I already do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This. One of their best traits currently. I think it's because their tools to actually get opponents offstage, like aerial pressure, have been nerfed. Their neutral game is problematic and they can't approach easily or force approaches, so the edgeguarding is kind of bittersweet. They'd be godlike in doubles when paired with a character with the opposite problem, like maybe dr. Mario or greninja.

This man is a ****ing knowledge sage

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

I'm actually hopeful that the Cimbers will be released for DLC, along with Lucas and Wolf (I'd pay for char. DLC), with the advent of the New 3DS (better CPU), but it is Sakurai...

Well that is why we are campaigning to show Sakurai we really want these characters back, heck @ CosmicEternity44 actually sent 2 extremely well written requests for more character DLC to Sakurai, and even had them translated into Japanese,

Spoiler

Just so you all know, I sent Sakurai a message on Twitter yesterday about Wolf DLC. Here is the message I sent him, including the link to the full message:

@Sora_Sakurai 桜井様 お世話になっております。 突然ですが、DLCについてお願いがあり、ご連絡させていただきました。 実は、最新のWii (cont) http://tl.gd/n_1skbf4q

Here is the full message:

Spoiler

お世話になっております。

突然ですが、DLCについてお願いがあり、ご連絡させていただきました。

実は、最新のWii U/3DS版のスマブラに、スターフォックスのウルフを追加キャラとして参戦させていただきたいのです。これは私の仲間のたくさんのウルフファンを代表してお願いしており、ウルフを追加キャラにしてほしいと言う人は本当にたくさんいます。

ミュウツー以外にはDLCの予定はないとおっしゃったと伺いましたが、私も、私の仲間のウルフファンたちも、ウルフをスマブラに参戦させてくださることを心から願っています。

ウルフをWii U/3DS版スマブラに追加してほしいという私たちの思いをお伝えするために、同じ願いを抱く仲間たちの名前を以下に列記します。
名前のほとんどをローマ字で表記しており、恐縮です。恐らく、重要なのは人数かとは存じますが。

ウルフのサポーターのリスト
WOLF FOR DLC！

http://m.uploadedit.com/b044/1422491443909.txt

ご覧のように、ウルフをWii U/3DS版DLCに望むファンは非常にたくさんおり、合計で1100名が名前を連ねています。
このメッセージが桜井様の目に止まり、もし、まだ着手していなけば、DLCの作成を始めるきっかけになれば幸いです。
私たちファンの声が届き、ウルフのDLCを作っていただけますよう、心から願っています。
長文をお読みいただき、ありがとうございました。

Here it is translated into English:

Spoiler

Hello, Mr. Sakurai. I want to let you know something in regards to DLC. On behalf of my fellow Wolf fans, I would like to say to you that there are very, many people who want to see Wolf from Star Fox be in the latest Super Smash Brothers game for the Wii U and 3DS. I have heard that you have said that you are not working on DLC other than Mewtwo, but myself and my fellow Wolf fans would really appreacite it if you were to include Wolf as a playable character in Smash. To show our support for Wolf being DLC for Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS, here is a list of people who want to see you include Wolf as a playable character in Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS. I hope you do not mind the list being mostly in Romaji, though I think the number of people on the list counts more.

Wolf's supporters. WOLF FOR DLC

http://m.uploadedit.com/b044/1422491443909.txt

As you can see, there are quite a number of fans would would like for you to include Wolf as playable DLC in the game; one thousand and one hundred people to be exact. If you get this message, I hope this message will persuade you to work on Wolf DLC if you have not started working on such a thing as of yet. We would appreciate it if you are willing to listen to us and make the Wolf DLC. Thank you for your time.

I am not sure if Sakurai has or will read this, but I'd say sending that message is better than not doing anything. I hope this helps Sakurai consider adding Wolf as DLC. Just wanted to share this with you all.

Guys, I just sent another message to Sakurai on Twitter. Here is the short version.

"@Sora_Sakurai こんにちは、桜井さん このような数々のメールでご迷惑をおかけしていなければと存じますが、ご迷惑でなければ、多くの人達がウルフをDLCにして欲しいと願う理由についてもっとお見せしたいのです。 (cont) http://tl.gd/n_1skmlne "

The long version can be found here.

http://tl.gd/n_1skmlne

Now, here is the English version of what I wrote.

Spoiler

Hello, Mr. Sakurai. I hope I am not bothering you with these posts, but I would like to show you more as to why there are plenty of people who want Wolf in as DLC, if you don't mind.
I would like to start by showing you this poll here on Smash Boards, a big community where many fans talk about Smash Brothers the series.

http://smashboards.com/threads/poll-vote-for-your-preferred-smash-bros-dlc-choices.375784/page-12

This shows a poll for what characters are wanted in Smash Brothers for the Wii U and 3DS. Here are the results.

Wolf
420 vote(s)
52.4%
Ice Climbers
327 vote(s)
40.8%
Lucas
352 vote(s)
43.9%
Snake
287 vote(s)
35.8%
Roy
177 vote(s)
22.1%
Squirtle
143 vote(s)
17.9%
Ivysaur
145 vote(s)
18.1%
Pichu
98 vote(s)
12.2%
King K.Rool (Donkey Kong)
360 vote(s)
44.9%
Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong)
259 vote(s)
32.3%
Isaac (Golden Sun)
309 vote(s)
38.6%
Wonder Red (The Wonderful 101)
163 vote(s)
20.3%
Inkling (Splatoon)
202 vote(s)
25.2%
Impa (The Legend of Zelda)
199 vote(s)
24.8%
Tetra (The Legend of Zelda)
100 vote(s)
12.5%
Captain Toad (Super Mario Bros)
163 vote(s)
20.3%
Paper Mario (Paper Mario/Super Mario Bros)
148 vote(s)
18.5%
Krystal (Star Fox)
171 vote(s)
21.3%
Black Shadow (F-Zero)
106 vote(s)
13.2%
Medusa (Kid Icarus)
90 vote(s)
11.2%
Hades (Kid Icarus)
94 vote(s)
11.7%
Bandanna Dee (Kirby)
222 vote(s)
27.7%
Chorus Men (Rhythm Heaven)
162 vote(s)
20.2%
Ray Mk (Custom Robo)
104 vote(s)
13.0%
Andy (Advance Wars)
108 vote(s)
13.5%
Chibi Robo (Chibi Robo!)
116 vote(s)
14.5%
Kamek (Yoshi)
84 vote(s)
10.5%
Lip (Panel De Pon)
106 vote(s)
13.2%
Mach Rider (Mach Rider)
102 vote(s)
12.7%
Reyn (Xenoblade Chronicles)
69 vote(s)
8.6%
Rayman (Rayman)
164 vote(s)
20.5%
Bayonetta (Bayonetta)
146 vote(s)
18.2%
Professor Layton (Professor Layton)
103 vote(s)
12.9%
Bomberman (Bomberman)
130 vote(s)
16.2%
4th Mii Fighter Archetype
140 vote(s)
17.5%
Other...(character not on this list)
257 vote(s)
32.1%

As you can see, in the results for the poll, out of all characters, Wolf is the most wanted character to be playable as DLC in Smash Brothers for the Wii U and 3DS. He has 420 votes, with a percentage of 52.4%.

Also on Smash Boards, there are some people who said they want Wolf in as DLC in one topic.

http://smashboards.com/threads/cant-let-you-cut-me-sakurai-wolf-for-dlc.324209/

Here are some translations from the same topic about people wanting Wolf in.

By rsr2
Wolf needs to come back.
That is all.

By bombers14
and he definetley better be back

By tekkie
Wolf needs a comeback.
Honestly Wolf/Falco/Fox are the perfect trio, they should just add to it. there's no reason to remove any of the three.

By Sunnysunny
He's smashbro's token "anti-hero."
Also he makes a cool noise when you u-smash.

By SmasherP82
Wolf is awesome! If he gets cut i'm probably going to kill something ):< plus he's not even a clone so he should stay anyway and **** anyone who wants him cut!

By Reggie Amiibo
Wolf was my Brawl secondary (behind Toon Link), and I fully support his inclusion.
for DLC!

By _Magus_
Want him so bad. So fun in brawl, and was more unique than falco

By SG9000
Here's a thing I wanted to say, just for kicks:
#Wolf4DLC

By Stormfury12
Slap me on that list. Wolf needs to come back.

By FalKoopa
Wolf was definitely a deserving character. While not the best addition in Brawl, Sakurai did a very good job in differentiating him from Fox.

By MagnesD3
Wolf was the highlight of the brawl characters that were included for me, him and sonic.

By Pakky
I too support Wolf, slap me on that list as well

By eltacoenojado
It's so exciting to see all the support for wolf!

Superior Spider-Mew
Definitely put me on that list, I didn't really use Wolf that much but he was a fun character and I like him as a character, Wolf must return for smash 4!

By Rizen
Wolf was my favorite secondary in Brawl. Add me to the supporter list.

By Arc Skypaw
Totally wanna see Wolf back in the game, he is the only StarFox character I actually enjoyed playing.

By Josiah
I would fully support Wolf DLC and buy it for both versions I have.

By DaRedMage
Wolf was my one of my favorite characters in Brawl. He, along with Lucas, Ivysaur and Squirtle had NO REASON TO BE CUT! I want in on this.

By rsr2
Yeah I joined late but I still want him back. That way I can show off the tattoo more lol >_>

By eltacoenojado
So I was playing last night, just doing random stage selection. I got both Star Fox stages one right after another, and they both decided to play the Star Wolf music. It made me sad, but at the same time gave me hope for our beloved Wolf to return as DLC.
Wolf For DLC!!!!

BoN~
#Wolf4Smash
Wolf in brawl is so cool,i love that up smash,in pm one of my mains,that speed is so cool,and the shine x3

By KCJ506
Wolf is pretty much the only cut vet I want back and the only one whom I think even has a realistic chance.(in regards to ones that haven't been announced)

By Zeriora
Bring wolf back, BRING HIM BACK, i mained him in brawl besides toon link but JESUS, i loved him UNTILLLLLLLLLLLL....

By Pazzo
You have my vote. Wolf for DLC! Let Lucas get a comeback too if we're at it.

By MacSmitty
Add me to the support list, Wolf was fun to play as in Brawl.

By Yitsul
he has my support! smash needs more villains

By AscWolf
I really want so see Wolf again ._.

By ferioku
Dammit Nintendo! Wolf is the only Villain I've ever favored to all the protagonists in any video game! Better be DLC T_T

By EndlessChrom
We better get Lucas and Wolf back...this would be awesome :D

By Skyward
Wolf is currently the only character I actively want in the game, so add me to the support list.

By Yetiplays
Wolf is a Character I really want back. He wasn't My favorite in brawl, but I feel like Wolf is better to have than Falco, more relevance to franchise.

By SmashBroski
I support Wolf!

By HotNTasty
Add me to the support list. Time to reclaim another lost main!

By SmashingObjection
Feel free to add me as a supporter :D. We need wolf.... really nothing else to say, we just need him

By Xzsmmc
Count me in. Always sucks to lose a character, and Wolf going is baffling to me. Here's hoping for him and Lucas to make a return.

By ProjectAngel
I hereby support Wolf for Smash 4 DLC

By Strider_Bond00J
I'm just going to put this here: I'm all for Wolf to return. Regardless of how you looked at it, he was his own unique fighter and deserves to come back - there's no point in having a once three-rep series drop to two when they're like Ryu and Ken.

By Cpt.
I support. It was a poor decision to cut Wolf in the first place.

By CliffJumper
Wolf did not deserve to be cut from the game in any way.

By BravadoMan_13
In my opinion, I think Wolf will be the next veteran confirmed for DLC. I really want to see him back. What good what it be that Lylat Cruise returns but Wolf doesn't? He'll be back and better than ever.

By 0ShadowStories
Now that we have DLC possiblities, Wolf is my #1 vet to come back. I always played him in brawl so he was my main.

By Grovbi
While I'm not a huge fan of Wolf, he was my preferred out of the Star Fox fighters in Brawl. I'd happily welcome him back if he were to return.

By True Blue Warrior
Wolf for the win.

By Putuk
Not a huge Wolf fan, but he's definitly my favorite Star Fox character to play as in Smash Bros.
I've got my fingers crossed for you guys!

By Komenja
Well, this blows. Here's hoping he's DLC.

By Lady Byakugan
I want wolf back. Much more unique than falco

As you can see, there are a lot of people who want Wolf in as DLC, and would be happy if you included him in the game as DLC.

There was another poll that was made by someone on Smash Boards. Here it is:

http://kwiksurveys.com/app/rendersurvey.asp?sid=l7xz9kv7oegh3nc484671&refer=smashboards

The one who created the poll had just released the statistics of the votes. Let me show you some of the results of that poll. The statistics can be found here in a spoiler at the top of the page.
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...es-check-out-the-results-so-far.386712/page-4

1. Wolf 240
2. Ice Climbers 228
3. Lucas 218
4. King K. Rool 196
5. Isaac (Golden Sun) 181
6. Snake (Metal Gear) 181
7. Ridley 167
8. Dixie Kong 164
9. Ganondorf with a Revamped Moveset (replacing his existing one) 155
10. Rayman 151
11. Roy 146
12. Banjo & Kazooie 137
13. Toad/Captain Toad 129
14. Bandana Dee 129
15. Paper Mario 128
16. Krystal 128
17. Majora (Skull Kid) 120
18. Simon Belmont (Castlevania) 117
19. Inklings 115
20. Impa 111
21. Bomberman 111
22. Zero (Mega Man) 110
23. Waluigi 102
24. Squirtle 102
25. Wonder Red (Wonder 101) 102
26. Bayonetta 102
27. Chrom 101
28. Dark Samus 93
29. Black Shadow 93
30. Ivysaur 92
31. Chorus Kids (Rhythm Heaven) 89
32. Sceptile 85
33. Ghirahim 84
34. Hades 84
35. Tails (Sonic the Hedgehog) 84
36. Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog) 84
37. Takamaru (The Mysterious Musasame Castle) 82
38. Black Mage (Final Fantasy) 82
39. Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney) 81
40. Dillon (Rolling Western) 80
41. Professor Layton 80
42. Chibi Robo 79
43. Shantae 79
44. Lyn 77
45. X (Mega Man) 76

In a previous poll (now unavailable) the same user made, there have been 860 votes, shown in the second page of the same topic.. Let me show you some of the results.

Can't Let You Do That, Tier List
Wolf 622

Top Tier
Lucas 578
King K. Rool 542
Ice Climbers 531
Ridley 453
Snake (Metal Gear) 443
Dixie Kong 415

High Tier
Toad/Captain Toad 381
Bandana Dee 369
Isaac (Golden Sun) 348
Black Shadow 345
Roy 326
Kamek 312
Paper Mario 311
Impa 311
Krystal 311
Banjo & Kazooie 305

At the same time, some characters people want for DLC can be seen on Smash Boards. The topic titles for characters people want as DLC include... (as shown here: http://smashboards.com/forums/wii-u-3ds-character-discussion.291/

Can't Let you cut me Sakurai,Wolf for DLC

PK Love - Lucas DLC Support Thread - Under New Ownership!

"Kept You Waiting Huh?" The Solid Snake for Smash DLC Thread!!! Under New Ownership

The S.T.E.A.M.-powered soldier - Henry Fleming for DLC!

Krystal for DLC: Year of Star Fox

The Lycia Alliance: Roy for DLC! -- *Help Our Boy Reclaim the Throne Today!*

Isaac for DLC - Our Puns ROCK!!!

Inkling for Smash! DLC possible!

Awakening the Voice - Tiki for DLC! * FE14 confirmed! Praise Naga~! *

Fiora for SSB4 DLC [Xenoblade spoilers]

Mother Series's Eternal Villain - Porky Support Thread (New Ownership!)

Orange Star's Keet CO - Advance Wars' Andy for SSB4

The Spunky Princess of Sarasaland: Daisy for SBB4 (Request Daisy in your Club Nintendo Surveys!)

Rhythm Heaven Character Emblem Data Found; a Sonata of Hope! Chorus Kids for Smash Bros DLC!

Agnes Oblige for DLC and why you should want it!

K. Rool's Kremling Kutthroats: Request the King in Your Smash Club Nintendo Forms Today!!

"Witness My True Power!" - Melia Antiqua for SSB4 DLC (Potential Spoilers; Complete Moveset Added)

DLC - Rayman: Hero of the Glade of Dreams - Who Needs Limbs Anyway?

UNITE, DLC! - Wonder Red for SSB4! (TW101 music confirmed!)

This is as far as you go! - Birdo for DLC thread

Gunvolt For Smash 4 DLC

The Original Girl With the Whirl: Dixie Kong Support Thread

Ridley’s Partner in Crime, Kraid for Smash4 DLC(Move Over King K. Rool,I Need Me A Galactic Reptile)

SUCKER PUNCH! You Never Saw Him Coming: Bisharp for DLC

Practising his Black Magic; Black Mage for Super Smash Bros.! May Monday be the Day?)

Nintendo's ace pilots take flight! Pilot Wings for SSB4! The dream's not dead! Taking flight as DLC!

-Darunia for Smash!- DLC? New LoZ Rep?

The Axe Lord Swings Away! Hector for SSB4 DLC support thread!

No Jokes, but i want Groose as Smash DLC

The Soulful Diva of F-Zero: Kate Alen for DLC!

Reprogramming the Kid : Masked Man for DLC!

The Chibi-Robo for SSB4 Thread!! A little guy with BIG Potential!

The Second Best Wario Ware Employee: Mona for SSB4

Captain Syrup, Wario Land's Sultry Pirate Captain!

4th-D Slip Master: Ninten for DLC!

As you can see, there are plenty of people who want plenty of characters in Smash Bros 4 as DLC. Though I do not have the time to show you every page and post, each topic has over one hundred posts and many pages about people discussing about the character they want in as DLC. Now, I have heard that you are a bit uneasy in terms of making more DLC, and I believe I heard you said that it would be rather greedy. Still, as I have pointed out, a lot of people want so many different characters in as DLC. Smash Brothers, the series overall, is known for its fan service, and with that, there will be so many people who would be happy if their favorite DLC character is playable, even if it has to be DLC. I do know that you said that DLC can cost a lot, and it would not be easy, but it would please the fans so much if you at least gave it a try and make some more DLC characters. You don't have to make every character there is, or that many characters to be in as DLC, but I am sure the fans would be happy with you if you made some DLC characters nonetheless. Whether or not this convinces you to make such DLC, I hope that even though you may see it as greedy, and that it may cost a lot and require some time, I hope you will be able to see how many people will be happy if you made more DLC, and I am sure they will like it if you cared enough to add more DLC for Smash Brothers 4 for the Wii U and 3DS. Whether it is Wolf, or Mona, or King K. Rool, or anyone else, even if you can't include them are, it would be good to see fans happy to see you care enough to add more DLC characters. So, even if you still have not decided to add more DLC by now, I hope this message at least helps convince you some to make more.

Also, it appears the link to the list of supporters I peviously showed you was outdated. Here is another list, which is bigger now.

http://freetexthost.com/oi0463d5yn

So, what do you all think?

This man deserves a medal.
Anyway, I do like ROB's new side B, being able to get a hit at the end of the spin, and his aerials are pretty powerful, though some of his a attacks aren't as powerful, and due to his larger size, he gets hit more.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well MK ignores edge guards so I don't fear marcina in that area, but against marth. 70% + tippers + light character = No choice but to respect and fear.

That's like the only reason I think the MU is close to even or in MK favor, I gotta be onpoint with my kill setups or try my best to avoid a hard punish. For real his punishes are bloody demoralizing at times where I knew that shuttle loop would kill but I miss and die.

MK ignores every single trap situation ever.

Like seriously you people are fapping to combos when you need to be fapping to the fact that he doesnt care about any disadvantage situation he is put in EVER. He can teleport out for free.

lol. DUMB!!!!!

Abuse that ****.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK ignores every single trap situation ever.

Like seriously you people are fapping to combos when you need to be fapping to the fact that he doesnt care about any disadvantage situation he is put in EVER. He can teleport out for free.

lol. DUMB!!!!!

Abuse that ****.

Already have been man. Already have been.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I know they can edgeguard, but it's not exactly safe as either because doc has bad recovery and greninja has a slow fair, weak bair, brief nair with a small duration, risky up b and side b and risky dair. I feel like they do better grounded, but that's just my two cents.

Like I said, mac is a way better example though.

So who do you all think will benefit most and least from having customs?

Benifits? there is alot of variables to that.

because we would have to be identifiying what custom do for said character.

iv put it down to 3 categories

-1 Increased game plan.

-2 Weakness coverage

-3 Jank (whole new type of option that centers the entire playstyle)

1 i would put characters like samus. her customs don't really cover her weaknesses but make her strenghts greater.

2 i would place characters like bowser/ganon giving them options to cover weakness that their design entails.

3 DK,Palutena *cough*

 

[Yokoblue]

I say he won't lose a move simply due to Fox having the same move as a custom. Plus Fox flash doesn't have any purple lightning.

Really!? Wolf only has 1 of his specials as a custom for Fox, not bringing a character back because they share a move with 1 or 2 characters is a stupid reason not to include them. and share some moves too, and is more of a clone of than . Also has Mario's fire ball as a custom, and now has the same back throw as .

Now that my angry rant is done, back on topic, I prefer most of Wario's default moves to his customs, his standard motorcycle is really good, my favorite Wario custom is the suction chomp (from Wario World) It has a wide range and can still eat projectiles.

You get only half the point. Having similar playstyle/clonish characters make that its harder for them to find ideas for customs. Says Ness and Lucas have PK Fire in common... They don't act at all the same but finding 2 other property for the move might be easy, finding 4 is another thing.

Wolf B moves are all pseudo copies of Fox/Falco. Since they already had to find 4 different way to add property to the moves, I'm only saying its going to be harder to find 2 more. Lets be honest, if falco and wolf didnt exist, Fox custom move would be their moves variant.

 

[Ultinarok]

This man is a ****ing knowledge sage

Errr...can't tell if sarcasm or what but...thanks? Lol. I don't know everything about Marth but I do know that he has always been forced to approach by a lack of projectile, and its much harder now that he can't SH double fair or safely use his aerials without lag. He still edgeguards like a boss and I really like him in this game actually. Tippers are incredible now and feel so good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Errr...can't tell if sarcasm or what but...thanks? Lol. I don't know everything about Marth but I do know that he has always been forced to approach by a lack of projectile, and its much harder now that he can't SH double fair or safely use his aerials without lag. He still edgeguards like a boss and I really like him in this game actually. Tippers are incredible now and feel so good.

nope. No sarcasm. People bring them up alot and ask the same questions and you summarized it really well as to why they are average.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Well that is why we are campaigning to show Sakurai we really want these characters back, heck @ CosmicEternity44 actually sent 2 extremely well written requests for more character DLC to Sakurai, and even had them translated into Japanese,
This man deserves a medal.
Anyway, I do like ROB's new side B, being able to get a hit at the end of the spin, and his aerials are pretty powerful, though some of his a attacks aren't as powerful, and due to his larger size, he gets hit more.

Heh heh! Thanks, Obnoxshush!

Maybe if Sakurai confirms he will do more DLC, I shall try to push for others as well, such as King K. Rool.

 

[NairWizard]

MK ignores every single trap situation ever.

Like seriously you people are fapping to combos when you need to be fapping to the fact that he doesnt care about any disadvantage situation he is put in EVER. He can teleport out for free.

lol. DUMB!!!!!

Abuse that ****.

Bingo. And this is why Meta Knight is still High/Top Tier. Having good advantage, disadvantage, and neutral is a rare quality that only the best characters have (such as Sheik, and Pikachu). On top of this, MK has great KO power. The character is crazy good.

His customs are sadly lackluster, however, so MK mains don't have much to be excited about when it comes to customs. Dreadful Tornado is worthwhile over regular Tornado against Ganondorf and other heaveis because KOing heavies with Shuttle Loop is risky. High Speed Drill Rush is good against characters like Mario when you want to power through weak projectiles. Beyond that, everything is worthless.

Before picking up MK, I had been on the lookout for a character who beats Greninja, Yoshi, Mario, and Sheik. MK is probably +1 in all of those matchups. At this point, I'm not sure if I'll stick with him because customs are upon us and Mii Gunner is fantastic, but he's a threat to watch out for as the metagame develops.

 

[Ffamran]

I do like the option of Fox having edgeguarding material, but iirc Wolf Flash has much less horizontal distance (most notably the end of the move cuts your horizontal recovery 100% as if you hit a wall).

It's a nifty option for anti-air, but not sure if it will realistically replace uair/bair pressure. It has a use on dthrow/fthrow followups, but the endlag is also there. Also makes recovering onto the stage a poor option, or resetting to neutral.

I'm curious how it will play out and I'm only speculating, but I'd hate to be in a position where I have to rely on upB more often than I already do.

Yeah, I when I unlocked it, I was sort of disappointed because Wolf wasn't there to use it by default, but I ended up seeing what it could do and the moment I saw that you didn't enter a helpless state and that it still meteored, I felt like Wolf Flash had potential. The issue is what it can do in practice vs. what it can do on paper. I mean, look at Explosive Punch on Mario. It makes Mario's recovery worse, but in practice, someone could make it extremely dangerous if they never have to leave the stage or get knocked off the stage. That's still a theory since skill level and creativity could make what seems crappy good.

MK ignores every single trap situation ever.

Like seriously you people are fapping to combos when you need to be fapping to the fact that he doesnt care about any disadvantage situation he is put in EVER. He can teleport out for free.

lol. DUMB!!!!!

Abuse that ****.

I think Zelda can do this too naturally with Nayru's Love and with customs, Farore's Squall, but I'm not sure since I think the Zelda boards are still testing it. The other thing is that Zelda isn't exactly mobile and can't do what Meta Knight can do, but she's still dangerous if you're screwing around or have no idea what to do.

You get only half the point. Having similar playstyle/clonish characters make that its harder for them to find ideas for customs. Says Ness and Lucas have PK Fire in common... They don't act at all the same but finding 2 other property for the move might be easy, finding 4 is another thing.

Wolf B moves are all pseudo copies of Fox/Falco. Since they already had to find 4 different way to add property to the moves, I'm only saying its going to be harder to find 2 more. Lets be honest, if falco and wolf didnt exist, Fox custom move would be their moves variant.

Optional: Mostly Off-topic since it's basically character speculation.

Spoiler

I feel like Wolf was a rushed character in both Melee and Brawl as I notice more things about him and Falco. In Melee, he was planned, but because Sakurai felt like he would look way too similar to Wolf, made Falco which in turn probably screwed Falco over because Falco had low air speed in all of his games and more or less ended up as a stronger and slower Fox rather than an air fighter. Now I'm wondering what it would be like if Falco was an air fighter who wasn't great on the ground. He'd probably be more like Marth in Melee and Brawl. Anyway, on Wolf, in Brawl if you notice his idle stance, there's the few frames where he stands like Fox before transitioning to his claws ready stance. Then there's his Dash Attack which Fox and Falco have for Up Smashes, his Up Smash is essentially Sonic's Uair, his Nair is Pikachu and Sonic's Nair, his Fair is either Sheik's or Bowser's Fair, and his modified Specials. Hell, his dashing animation looks like Fox's fighting stance, but in motion. The fact that the Star Fox characters all shared a Final Smash was enough to say, "Hey, something seems off. Did they not have time to give Falco an Arwing or Wolf his Wolfen for a Final Smash?"

Still, he ended up with a unique Jab combo, Side Smash - I can't think of anyone's Side Smash that moves them forward like that -, Down Smash - Little Mac sort of took it -, Uair, Bair, Dair, throws, and Blaster. Why Blaster? Because of the bayonet. No projectile Special - I'm probably wrong since I don't remember - has both a melee and projectile hit. If Wolf returned, then he needed a serious overhaul: his idle would have to changed or fixed like Sheik's, his Nair, Fair, Bair, Up Smash, Specials, and Dash Attack might have to be reconsidered, and his Final Smash would have to change as well.

But then you have to add in that Sakurai doesn't want to alienate past fans which lead to Ganondorf staying as a semi-clone of Captain Falcon, Falco having bad air speed despite being a freaking bird, Samus's design since 64, and more. Unless it was serious like Bowser or Pit needing to reflect Uprising because Brawl was basically proto-Pit and a reintroduction to Kid Icarus, not much was going to be changed.

That means a lot of time to redo a character. Lucas would have been fine as the Luigi to Ness and the Ice Climbers were fine as is until it was apparent that they would not run on the 3DS and wanting equal characters meant that the Ice Climbers would not make it in - they might if everyone adopts the New 3DS or they might return in SSB5. Wolf, Roy, and perhaps Pichu would require overhauls, but Roy's not that relevant because Fire Emblem moves from setting to setting while Marth is the first Fire Emblem hero and Pichu's, well, Pichu. If we want to go into more speculation, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Ridley.

The whole customs things was kind of iffy since Link and Toon Link alone could have had Ice Arrows, Bomb Arrows, or even Light Arrows, but they ended up with a Quickfire/Piercing Bow and Power Bow. Well, at least Toon Link got Fire Arrows.

 

[mimgrim]

I know they can edgeguard, but it's not exactly safe as either because doc has bad recovery and greninja has a slow fair, weak bair, brief nair with a small duration, risky up b and side b and risky dair. I feel like they do better grounded, but that's just my two cents.

Greninja's Up Special is not risky and is a very potent edgeguarding/gimping tool (even after the nerfs), Bair isn't really weak and send at a good angle, Fair having slow start-up isn't a big deal as long as you know how to space it because it has low end-lag. Nair is bad off-stage because of high end-lag, Dair is "lol why you do dis" off stage. He also has Shuriken which is pretty useful for edge guarding. If you know what you are doing with him his edgeguarding game is pretty potent, if largely because of Up Special.

 

[Lavani]

Also worth noting bair starts fast and has good range and active frames, it's just an all-around great edgeguarding move.

Dair seems stupid at first, but Greninja can recover on whiff if he does it from the apex of a full jump or if he doublejumps first; the spike will easily kill, and even if he doesn't get the spike hit he can combo dair>fair for a kill as well. Bonus points for most opponents not expecting a Greninja to dair offstage, giving it the element of surprise.

Shadow Sneak can also be a potent edgeguarding tool used sparingly, as the shadow isn't visible offstage and it has a large hitbox with a lot of kill power. Customs add Exploding Attack (downB 2) which can be used in the same manner as Sheik's runoff Vanish.

Greninja's edgeguarding is great.

 

[Vincent21]

TL DR; I use this place for convenience and discussion. I'm not the only one on here throwing out ideas without full knowledge of the character. That's why we discuss, so we can see all sides of a topic. Anyway, I call a truce, so don't take anything I say offensively. I didn't mean to undersell Samus. I WANT her to be good, if anything. Every character deserves to be good.

I too use this forum to occasionally download character information. This place is typically stronger in that regard as well because you're more likely to find... well, not to be rude, but more competitively invested players. The player who gush over specific characters and the people who are interested in tier development and metagame dynamics, while not rigidly stuck within their worlds, tend towards different skill levels. That's not even a jab at people who just love their characters, but acceptance that you probably play a weeee bit more of this game than most if your actively choosing to spend your discussion time dissecting the metagame, and those are the players I want to be having this discussion with.

Again, I'm not Nairo, but just as something to point out:

You're a Falcon/Little Mac main. This means:
1. You probably favor rushdown, speedy, combo-friendly powerhouses, which Robin isn't.
2. You have a good match-up against her (to my knowledge), making her seem terrible when you face her, because Falcon/Little Mac get in easily and don't allow her to zone or setup easily thanks to dash grabs, generally speed, aerial setups, and armor on Mac's smashes, which she can't easily escape or deal with because she's slow.

Robin is a different playstyle, as @ Conda pointed out. Her playstyle struggles against the niche of character you use and excels against slower, less rush-friendly characters. She can go toe-to-toe with Mario, Luigi, the Pits, Bowser, Dorf, DK etc. But she can't deal with Sheik, Diddy, Falcon or Mac well (unless she gets Mac into the air).

Nairo could probably tell you the finer aspects of her character. But that may be why you don't see her strengths.

Very well and possible, but I did at one point give the character half a month, and my ultimate problem was always feeling like what I was using was a worse version of something else.

When I was using the levin sword to apply pressure and try to space, I felt like a worse Marth. Yeah pound for pound my swings can be stronger, but Marth swings are good all the time and have absurd early kill tippers.

When I'm pressure someone's shield with Arc-Fire to fish for a grab opening I'm just sitting there thinking "you know this would probably be so much easier if I were Ness and had more variety to my pressure game, better conversions, and a kill throw that rewards me even when I'm converting high % traps" (admittedly down-throw got me plenty of uair kills I didn't deserve)

When I'm recovering with Elwind I'm just there like "jesus, at least Little Mac has a wall jump and invincibility frames on UpB, an UpB that sharks ledges if you're ballsy. I can pose a rebuttal. It's not just me inviting anyone with decent aim and a passable meteor to claim free stocks from low recovery."

Those two are my listed mains, but my signature is a more accurate portrayal. I put a lot of hours in a lot of places because I believe the fundamentals in this game are tied most strongly to one's ability to space and engage in footsies. Smash 4 is so, so, so very much about both earning rewarding punishes and making the best of poor exchanges. I'm not entirely sure you could sum up my lack of success with Robin as merely being playstyle boxed (especially with how much success I've begun seeing with Villager and Dark Pit lately). I think there are things about this character I'm simply not processing, and that's where my eagerness to get educated comes from. If there is something to this character, my self-study missed it, clearly. I want to find out where I wasn't looking, and where the difference in thought lies. It'll improve me later moving forward.

AND ACTUALLY, THAT HAS ME WILLING TO MAKE A CASE THIS DAY.

I'm actually going to come down with Nairo on Zelda now, because this is something I've been ruminating on for a while now. I play with a Zelda main whose put in their time. Successful elevators, strong spacing, and all that. Doesn't always save the day; the character is still flawed, but I noticed something. While Zelda loses a lot of exchanges, and in general has a hard time making characters respect her spacing options and limited strong points, there has always historically been one thing that has always been dreadful about fighting this character.

Disadvantage state. Hers. The difference is nothing. Gain neutral control? Neat. Good luck converting it into anything. Between the ridiculously strong get-off-me button neutralB is, the sheer distance her teleport offers her, ledge canceling, and the surprisingly smaller-than-you-think punish windows that round out her kit mean that whether she's in neutral, above you coming off of a juggle opening, in a scenario where you compromised her zoning... It's all the same to her. You have to respect Nayru the Girl's Best Friend, you have to respect consistently placed sweetspots, and therefore your ability to maximize on putting her in disadvantage relies almost completely on HARD reading teleports, before or afters. Just because you can predict and disrespect Side and Down B on a regular basis does not mean you can actually walk all over her. Even when you're winning, you're struggling to convert your advantage into immediate results.

This is especially jarring to me because the bulk of my hours, naturally, come from characters so drastically more... well... DISADVANTAGED in their disadvantage state. LM's disadvantage state is the thing he looks for under his bed at night; Falcon and Ganon feel similarly. While Wario is rather adept and managing and making strides from disadvantage, 3 of my Big 4 don't experience anything close to what Zelda does, and it got me thinking of how much sense that makes out of character derision or misappropriation seen across these pages.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So I think Rosalina is the best character in the game with customs....

 

[Conda]

Also worth noting bair starts fast and has good range and active frames, it's just an all-around great edgeguarding move.

Dair seems stupid at first, but Greninja can recover on whiff if he does it from the apex of a full jump or if he doublejumps first; the spike will easily kill, and even if he doesn't get the spike hit he can combo dair>fair for a kill as well. Bonus points for most opponents not expecting a Greninja to dair offstage, giving it the element of surprise.

Shadow Sneak can also be a potent edgeguarding tool used sparingly, as the shadow isn't visible offstage and it has a large hitbox with a lot of kill power. Customs add Exploding Attack (downB 2) which can be used in the same manner as Sheik's runoff Vanish.

Greninja's edgeguarding is great.

Yeah his down-air edgeguarding is potent. The frog can do a lot. This is stuff I pointed out and showed in my Greninja tips & tricks guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAhlcOKfOMQ

 

[Vincent21]

Bingo. And this is why Meta Knight is still High/Top Tier. Having good advantage, disadvantage, and neutral is a rare quality that only the best characters have (such as Sheik, and Pikachu). On top of this, MK has great KO power. The character is crazy good.

His customs are sadly lackluster, however, so MK mains don't have much to be excited about when it comes to customs. Dreadful Tornado is worthwhile over regular Tornado against Ganondorf and other heaveis because KOing heavies with Shuttle Loop is risky. High Speed Drill Rush is good against characters like Mario when you want to power through weak projectiles. Beyond that, everything is worthless.

Before picking up MK, I had been on the lookout for a character who beats Greninja, Yoshi, Mario, and Sheik. MK is probably +1 in all of those matchups. At this point, I'm not sure if I'll stick with him because customs are upon us and Mii Gunner is fantastic, but he's a threat to watch out for as the metagame develops.

Can we talk about this Mii Gunner thing? I mean, heck from where I am at this very second I wouldn't even mind a borderline online 3DS play examples in friendlies with you or whatever but I really, really want in on the Mii Gunner train and after doing enough 1v1s with the character I'm inclined to feel there is something to your words...

...but I have no idea how to kill people. Dsmash and bair are like the only things I really like I'm consistently closing with, and even that's not the easier thing in the world. Not only does fsmash require a pretty adept hard read, but it plays with my heartstrings and leaves survivors sometimes.

Halp pls. Frand. Halp. I've been meaning to develop this tech with someone for a while but I haven't found anyone who agrees.

 

[Ffamran]

So I think Rosalina is the best character in the game with customs....

Mind explaining why? 'Cause I don't have all of her customs - I think I have one - and only being able to observe from older videos doesn't exactly help. Others might fall under this too or just don't know how useful or how to use her customs. I only heard of that "Falco laser, but better" custom and seeing Luma Warp from time to time.

 

[Antonykun]

So all the Villager forum have agreed that she is a counterpick character.
Now I need to pick someone up that can deal with her really bad MUs. @zeezee who is the best Villager player right now recommended Sheik and while I don't mind her I would like to know some other options. It's kinda a shame that Wario shares a lot of bad MUs with Villager.

 

[NairWizard]

Can we talk about this Mii Gunner thing? I mean, heck from where I am at this very second I wouldn't even mind a borderline online 3DS play examples in friendlies with you or whatever but I really, really want in on the Mii Gunner train and after doing enough 1v1s with the character I'm inclined to feel there is something to your words...

...but I have no idea how to kill people. Dsmash and bair are like the only things I really like I'm consistently closing with, and even that's not the easier thing in the world. Not only does fsmash require a pretty adept hard read, but it plays with my heartstrings and leaves survivors sometimes.

Halp pls. Frand. Halp. I've been meaning to develop this tech with someone for a while but I haven't found anyone who agrees.

Getting KOs is the obstacle I'm trying to overcome as well at this point in my gameplay. You may have to ask @ san. about this one; he's been playing Mii Gunner in tournament recently a lot, and has achieved more than I have with the character.

Here are a few things that can help:
1) don't focus on getting the KO until after 120%, when many of Mii Gunner's moves start to KO and you don't have to fish for it
2) try to get early f-air gimps
3) go for the edgeguard. Mii Gunner's edgeguarding is superb
4) don't be reckless, but don't be afraid to take risks. I don't think this character is bad in disadvantage due to f-air momentum shifts and grenades and down-b, so getting knocked around a bit is acceptable

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

You get only half the point. Having similar playstyle/clonish characters make that its harder for them to find ideas for customs. Says Ness and Lucas have PK Fire in common... They don't act at all the same but finding 2 other property for the move might be easy, finding 4 is another thing.

Wolf B moves are all pseudo copies of Fox/Falco. Since they already had to find 4 different way to add property to the moves, I'm only saying its going to be harder to find 2 more. Lets be honest, if falco and wolf didnt exist, Fox custom move would be their moves variant.

Standard B: Blaster
Custom B2: Quick draw, Wolf pulls out his blaster quickly, and fires four shots (Fox's blaster shots), bayonet does less damage
Custom B3: Charge blade, Wolf holds up his blaster, charging it before bringing the bayonet down and firing a powerful shot, much slower and more powerful then standard blaster, and the blaster shot deals knockback too.

Standard side B: Wolf Flash
Custom side B2: Wolf Pounce, similar to Little Mac's jolt haymaker, except it deals the same damage in the air or on the ground, is not as powerful, and Wolf can recover with Up B from it.
Custom side B3: Wolf Strike, basically Wolf flash, except it goes further, is more powerful, and has a longer startup time than Wolf Flash, you can still recover with up B out of it.

Standard up B: Fire Wolf
Custom up B2: Light Wolf, Wolf shoots up higher and faster, but only does damage at the end of the move.
Custom up B3: Blast Wolf, Wolf charges up and goes further and deals more damage, however there is a greater startup time.

Standard down B: Reflector
Custom down B2: Counter beam, the reflector acts as a counter, it can still reflect projectiles, but not until after the counter animation is done.
Custom down B3: Blade reflector, Wolf shoots out his reflector like beams, they travel slowly a short distance before disappearing, deal minor damage when come into contact with fighters, and can reflect projectiles, Wolf can only shoot the blade reflector out again when both pieces have disappeared, which should be quick.

Pretty sure Sakurai and his team could come up with good custom moves too.

 

[Conda]

Requesting that we don't post hypothetical character posts here, let's stay on topic and not too eagerly demonstrate our longing for certain veterans to return.

Sakuraaiiiiiiii

 

[san.]

Getting KOs is the obstacle I'm trying to overcome as well at this point in my gameplay. You may have to ask @ san. about this one; he's been playing Mii Gunner in tournament recently a lot, and has achieved more than I have with the character.

Here are a few things that can help:
1) don't focus on getting the KO until after 120%, when many of Mii Gunner's moves start to KO and you don't have to fish for it
2) try to get early f-air gimps
3) go for the edgeguard. Mii Gunner's edgeguarding is superb
4) don't be reckless, but don't be afraid to take risks. I don't think this character is bad in disadvantage due to f-air momentum shifts and grenades and down-b, so getting knocked around a bit is acceptable

It was a hurdle I had to figure outout along with increasing damage output from 8% to 20+%. www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu4B8md_xzo is early footage where I seldom used smash attacks. I was still able to kill with utilt, grenade, and bomb. These are the most noncommittal kill moves. Utilt is frame 5 and bombs/grenades are good near blastzones. I have since gotten used to using smashes a bit more. Even then, there are still those who may play defensively and only allow the safest attacks to hit them.

Fsmash is a ledge trap only at kill %. Its damage is too low to use otherwise. You can pull it off by trapping ledge and offstage options using other attacks such as grenade. Only the last hit of fsmash matters and it should be used near its max reach to avoid punishment. It kills well when charged, sometimes as early as 70-80% with rage at the edge and semi-fully charged.

Dsmash is best used with your back to the edge. It can cover normal getup and rolls, and it can punish whiffs.

Usmash works situationally. They may escape if they weren't hit by the beginning of the first hitbox.

Uair and fair kill at mid-high % off the top and side respectively and are both difficult to avoid.

I suggest going for the smashes occasionally since they can net a kill at 90% from a small read with little in the way of punishment when covered properly.

 

[Vincent21]

It was a hurdle I had to figure outout along with increasing damage output from 8% to 20+%. www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu4B8md_xzo is early footage where I seldom used smash attacks. I was still able to kill with utilt, grenade, and bomb. These are the most noncommittal kill moves. Utilt is frame 5 and bombs/grenades are good near blastzones. I have since gotten used to using smashes a bit more. Even then, there are still those who may play defensively and only allow the safest attacks to hit them.

Fsmash is a ledge trap only at kill %. Its damage is too low to use otherwise. You can pull it off by trapping ledge and offstage options using other attacks such as grenade. Only the last hit of fsmash matters and it should be used near its max reach to avoid punishment. It kills well when charged, sometimes as early as 70-80% with rage at the edge and semi-fully charged.

Dsmash is best used with your back to the edge. It can cover normal getup and rolls, and it can punish whiffs.

Usmash works situationally. They may escape if they weren't hit by the beginning of the first hitbox.

Uair and fair kill at mid-high % off the top and side respectively and are both difficult to avoid.

I suggest going for the smashes occasionally since they can net a kill at 90% from a small read with little in the way of punishment when covered properly.

Well hellooooo this is quite something. But lemme talk to ya about the build, if you don't mind.

A friendly match that I think helps showcase a good array of Mii Gunner's options in certain scenarios for neutral, disadvantage, and advantage states.

Height: Halfway between Minimum and Standard (around Mega Man's height)
Weight: Minimum Weight

Fast with decent range. Mid height is a little too slow and minimum height doesn't have enough range. Kill differences between minimum and maximum weight aren't significant.

Specials:
Neutral B: Grenade Launch- Versatile, long lasting, can hide in the explosion or use it to control space. Some combo potential with fast attacks or good positioning.

Side B: Gunner Missile- Long range option. Laggy when used in the air. Super missile has combo ability, shield damage, and less lag. Regular missile has good homing (better than Samus') and high lag

upB: Cannon Uppercut- Low vertical distance and poor horizontal distance (think Mario's upB). Only upB that has a hitbox above Gunner. Has a spiking hitbox at Gunner's body and below. You can autosnap the ledge with the spike hitbox still coming out as seen later in the match.

DownB: Bomb Drop- Covers Grenade Launch's holes: Comes out faster and below Gunner. Slightly more endlag. Easy to fastfall at the same time. You can also hide inside/behind the bomb and has good combo potential.

Until I watched this game and the way the increase in height affected your projectile trajectories I'd been using minimum/minimum. I can see the difference, and I didn't think I would, so this already opened my eyes a little to start.

Neutral B and DownB are pretty much the specials that make this character work. The insane levels of pressure you can apply between smart bombs and grenades is quite simply unfair, and with the ability to basically z-drop those things with a mid-air pivot (pivot bombing? names? does it matter?) you can control space around yourself with this character so insanely well. I'm very much enjoying that. I at one point was wary of UpB because of the reduced vertical distance from the non-hitbox variant, but ultimately I agree with you because of how important those hitboxes are.

But I have to admit... missiles didn't contribute much in that exhibition at all, and I'd like to make an argument for the fire pillar.

You see, while you were able to put out a hitbox threat at ledges with strait shooters, that is clearly something grenades with charge time would've done been because of their lasting multiple hits, and the endlag and start lag and air lag all tend to make the missiles akin to the commitment level that goes with a charged grenade anyway. The only fired missile that seemed relevant during the entire engagement was the homing missile that put Shiek in shield before you arrived on the scene. That's

However what the fire pillar brings to the table is a huge advancement on your ground game. To put it simply it hugely disadvantages characters like Falcon (and to a lesser extent Shiek) by allowing you to react to dashes and ground approaches by completely shutting those options out. The lasting hitbox and quick shot mean being able to deny ground approaches on command and punish dashes even when you're not in a position to do so with your other two projectiles, due the aerial angle of the fire pillar conveniently filling that space between the arch of the grenade and the down-angle of the bomb. While at first glance it might look lackluster the sheer utility it gives you on the ground I really think Mii Gunners should be running it.

 

[Smog Frog]

alright i feel like discussing mii brawler since i've had time to experiment with him/her against humans

mii brawler can punish from across the stage like sonic can because he's so ****ing fast(runs at c. falcon speeds on the ground, and has one of the highest, if not the highest, air speed in the game, on top of falco size jumps and feint jump+feint jump kick)and gets similar damage from these punishes because his/her combos are around 30~ a pop, 40-50 if you can read di. the side special is honestly unimportant, and onslaught is used because there's nothing better to use. the neutral special is a matter of opinion, i prefer ultimate uppercut to force more pressure. now the up special, there's no question. helicopter kick is the only one you should be using. helicopter kick does big damage, can be comboed into in so many ways, and is an amazing oos option. the down special is reserved for feint jump because of the extra mobility it provides. feint jump kick also has a large amount of disjoint, it beats diddy's side b. his normals are also pretty great, with alot of combo starters(crossup bair, fair, falling uair, nair can break comboes, ftilt is nice and quick, dtilt can start combos, utilt can link stuff together, fsmash is super strong, dsmash is quick and covers both sides, and usmash can be a combo finisher at lower %s) and he has alot of kill setups into copter kick. mii brawler(small thin) is easy top 10 in my eyes, contender for top 5. sorry if this post was incoherent, its like 2 in the morning here

 

[mimgrim]

Dair seems stupid at first, but Greninja can recover on whiff if he does it from the apex of a full jump or if he doublejumps first; the spike will easily kill, and even if he doesn't get the spike hit he can combo dair>fair for a kill as well. Bonus points for most opponents not expecting a Greninja to dair offstage, giving it the element of surprise.

Eh. I still find it a mostly bad option even when done from where he will survive because it ends up putting him in a pretty bad position if he misses. I don't like the risk involved.

So all the Villager forum have agreed that she is a counterpick character.

Took ya'll long enough to realize it.

 

[Saturn_]

Has anyone found complimentary characters? Dabuz used Rosalina and Olimar as a starter, are there any characters out there that you have found compliment each other well? If you co-main, who are they and why did you pick them?

 

[incrediblej]

Has anyone found complimentary characters? Dabuz used Rosalina and Olimar as a starter, are there any characters out there that you have found compliment each other well? If you co-main, who are they and why did you pick them?

I main toon lunk, lucario, and waka waka, I pocket link for certain characters i have trouble with rest like captain falcon which for some reason I can only beat using link out of those 4

 

[mimgrim]

I mostly play Greninja and Jiggs but not because I think they compliment each other, I'm not comfotable on MUs yet to really decide. I just play both of them because their fun and feel the best to play. Once the meta starts maturing more and MUs start becoming more concrete I'll eventually swap one of them out (probably Jiggs), unfortunately, if they end up not complimenting each other. I might try adding a 3rd character to the mix instead but that seems like a bit much.

 

[Saturn_]

I want to have a character who has beefy give-the-opponent-a-hug gameplay and a character who uses zoning tactics to keep the opponent away. So far I've been pairing Ike and Luigi but I've been looking at lots of other characters. I really wonder if it won't take me months to pick a main...

 

[Vincent21]

I want to have a character who has beefy give-the-opponent-a-hug gameplay and a character who uses zoning tactics to keep the opponent away. So far I've been pairing Ike and Luigi but I've been looking at lots of other characters. I really wonder if it won't take me months to pick a main...

Giving hugs?

Well now that customs are a thing, Bowser has access to weapons grade, long distance, high-caliber, bolt-action hugs from the consummate hug-heavy killer of the 21st century.

Also for the second slot most of the characters I play say hi, on some level.

 

[mimgrim]

Giving hugs?

As in being really close to the opponent.

Most prominent example being the Puffster's Rest which pretty much requires you to be inside the opponent.

All the Puff Ball of cuteness wants is a hug of death!

 

[incrediblej]

I've been trying olimars customs I only have 4 unlocked being his throw which makes all thrown piks act like a purple without kb which seems like preference or mu dependent, his winged jump recovery which doesn't seem all that good , and all the plucks and it's more for preference except explosive which is terrible because the piks health is already low as it is don't need any lower I say hardy pluck works well seeing that whenever you use any pluck is when you escape which might as well put extra effort and time to get stronger piks which I like

 

[HeroMystic]

@Locke 06 @TriTails

So remembering the discussion from before, I've played Samus against a pretty good Luigi player at a Smashfest a number of times and I feel I have a decent grip on the MU as a whole.

For one thing, Samus combos Luigi pretty effectively (Even better than Mario... which is surprising). Dash Attack goes through fireballs and sets up U-air/Up-B chains pretty well. D-throw > F-air is pretty good on Luigi, and landing B-air is great because Luigi is so floaty, therefore making him an easy target. Finally, Charge Shot and Screw Attack are very, very good to use vs Luigi because he wants to get in very badly. D-tilt is also very effective on punishing any wreckless approaches from the ground.

Once Luigi is in though, it's business-as-usual. Samus has a really hard time getting Luigi off of her. While Luigi does have to look out for proper DI against his D-throws, it really sucks for Samus when Luigi is doing D-throw combos and all she can really do is use DI. None of her aerials come out fast enough to contest Luigi and drifting to the ledge is the best she can do to get out of pressure. At that point though, Luigi has the stage and it's really rough for Samus to set up Charge Shot. Oh, and fireballs not only cancels out Super Missiles, but it also cancels half-charged shots. This means if Luigi is close, and he just spams Fireballs, Samus is really hard-pressed to do something, and it's really difficult to charge up when he's doing this, though it's possible.

While Luigi on-stage presence is strong, Samus's edgeguarding is legitimately powerful vs Luigi due to charge shot, Z-air, F-air, and D-air. When Luigi is thrown off-stage he is in major trouble vs Samus if done correctly. The fact he has to use Green Missile alone should let you know how easy it is for Samus to end his life and take early kills.

Overall, this is still in Luigi's favor because of how much he has against Samus on stage, but it's no more than 60:40 in Luigi's favor.

This MU (along with Falcon's and Rosalina's) taught me that Samus' CQC is not as bad as it looks, and it synergizes well with her long ranged zoning. What you don't want to do is rely on it. Stage Control is still very important for Samus and the CQC is there to snatch it back when you lost it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

@Locke 06 @TriTails

So remembering the discussion from before, I've played Samus against a pretty good Luigi player at a Smashfest a number of times and I feel I have a decent grip on the MU as a whole.

For one thing, Samus combos Luigi pretty effectively (Even better than Mario... which is surprising). Dash Attack goes through fireballs and sets up U-air/Up-B chains pretty well. D-throw > F-air is pretty good on Luigi, and landing B-air is great because Luigi is so floaty, therefore making him an easy target. Finally, Charge Shot and Screw Attack are very, very good to use vs Luigi because he wants to get in very badly. D-tilt is also very effective on punishing any wreckless approaches from the ground.

Once Luigi is in though, it's business-as-usual. Samus has a really hard time getting Luigi off of her. While Luigi does have to look out for proper DI against his D-throws, it really sucks for Samus when Luigi is doing D-throw combos and all she can really do is use DI. None of her aerials come out fast enough to contest Luigi and drifting to the ledge is the best she can do to get out of pressure. At that point though, Luigi has the stage and it's really rough for Samus to set up Charge Shot. Oh, and fireballs not only cancels out Super Missiles, but it also cancels half-charged shots. This means if Luigi is close, and he just spams Fireballs, Samus is really hard-pressed to do something, and it's really difficult to charge up when he's doing this, though it's possible.

While Luigi on-stage presence is strong, Samus's edgeguarding is legitimately powerful vs Luigi due to charge shot, Z-air, F-air, and D-air. When Luigi is thrown off-stage he is in major trouble vs Samus if done correctly. The fact he has to use Green Missile alone should let you know how easy it is for Samus to end his life and take early kills.

Overall, this is still in Luigi's favor because of how much he has against Samus on stage, but it's no more than 60:40 in Luigi's favor.

This MU (along with Falcon's and Rosalina's) taught me that Samus' CQC is not as bad as it looks, and it synergizes well with her long ranged zoning. What you don't want to do is rely on it. Stage Control is still very important for Samus and the CQC is there to snatch it back when you lost it.

Basically in a nut shell what is being said is that samus's cqc is not for actually contesting against others cqc but more apart of her stage control in a form. Independently her range game or her cqc is lack luster but they mesh together quite well to make, well somthing. (nobody else is really like this i don't know what to call it.)

 

[Vincent21]

(nobody else is really like this i don't know what to call it.)

Robin? Levin sword is cute but it wouldn't float a character without the pressure/zoning mesh that is thunder+fire

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Robin? Levin sword is cute but it wouldn't float a character without the pressure/zoning mesh that is thunder+fire

ehh maybe i actually don't know enough about robin tbh. but from what i know frame traps are his specialty, his combos themselves rather short.
But thats just from what iv seen though some one with more experience with him would probably give a better answer.


all i know is that i want robin's u air on pit.

 

[Vincent21]

all i know is that i want robin's u air on pit.

laaaaaaaawdy that'd be cute. I would settle for a downB THAT I DIDN'T NEED TO GET AN ENGAGEMENT RING FOR WHEN I PRESSED THE BUTTON (forgive me for having commitment issues with punishable moves)