Character Competitive Impressions

[Ultinarok]

Doc's Tornado is pretty great off stage as well. Kills pretty early.

Greninja actually has a pretty solid offstage/edgeguard game in all honesty.

I know they can edgeguard, but it's not exactly safe as either because doc has bad recovery and greninja has a slow fair, weak bair, brief nair with a small duration, risky up b and side b and risky dair. I feel like they do better grounded, but that's just my two cents.

Like I said, mac is a way better example though.

So who do you all think will benefit most and least from having customs?

 

[Timbers]

To sum it up, Wolf Flash gives Fox a strong meteor, makes edgeguarding him more dangerous, makes his recovery less exploitable since Wolf Flash travels diagonally instead of straight, and it functions as a kill and sort of an anti air tool.

I do like the option of Fox having edgeguarding material, but iirc Wolf Flash has much less horizontal distance (most notably the end of the move cuts your horizontal recovery 100% as if you hit a wall).

It's a nifty option for anti-air, but not sure if it will realistically replace uair/bair pressure. It has a use on dthrow/fthrow followups, but the endlag is also there. Also makes recovering onto the stage a poor option, or resetting to neutral.

I'm curious how it will play out and I'm only speculating, but I'd hate to be in a position where I have to rely on upB more often than I already do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This. One of their best traits currently. I think it's because their tools to actually get opponents offstage, like aerial pressure, have been nerfed. Their neutral game is problematic and they can't approach easily or force approaches, so the edgeguarding is kind of bittersweet. They'd be godlike in doubles when paired with a character with the opposite problem, like maybe dr. Mario or greninja.

This man is a ****ing knowledge sage

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

I'm actually hopeful that the Cimbers will be released for DLC, along with Lucas and Wolf (I'd pay for char. DLC), with the advent of the New 3DS (better CPU), but it is Sakurai...

Well that is why we are campaigning to show Sakurai we really want these characters back, heck @ CosmicEternity44 actually sent 2 extremely well written requests for more character DLC to Sakurai, and even had them translated into Japanese,

Spoiler

This man deserves a medal.
Anyway, I do like ROB's new side B, being able to get a hit at the end of the spin, and his aerials are pretty powerful, though some of his a attacks aren't as powerful, and due to his larger size, he gets hit more.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well MK ignores edge guards so I don't fear marcina in that area, but against marth. 70% + tippers + light character = No choice but to respect and fear.

That's like the only reason I think the MU is close to even or in MK favor, I gotta be onpoint with my kill setups or try my best to avoid a hard punish. For real his punishes are bloody demoralizing at times where I knew that shuttle loop would kill but I miss and die.

MK ignores every single trap situation ever.

Like seriously you people are fapping to combos when you need to be fapping to the fact that he doesnt care about any disadvantage situation he is put in EVER. He can teleport out for free.

lol. DUMB!!!!!

Abuse that ****.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK ignores every single trap situation ever.

Like seriously you people are fapping to combos when you need to be fapping to the fact that he doesnt care about any disadvantage situation he is put in EVER. He can teleport out for free.

lol. DUMB!!!!!

Abuse that ****.

Already have been man. Already have been.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I know they can edgeguard, but it's not exactly safe as either because doc has bad recovery and greninja has a slow fair, weak bair, brief nair with a small duration, risky up b and side b and risky dair. I feel like they do better grounded, but that's just my two cents.

Like I said, mac is a way better example though.

So who do you all think will benefit most and least from having customs?

Benifits? there is alot of variables to that.

because we would have to be identifiying what custom do for said character.

iv put it down to 3 categories

-1 Increased game plan.

-2 Weakness coverage

-3 Jank (whole new type of option that centers the entire playstyle)

1 i would put characters like samus. her customs don't really cover her weaknesses but make her strenghts greater.

2 i would place characters like bowser/ganon giving them options to cover weakness that their design entails.

3 DK,Palutena *cough*

 

[Yokoblue]

I say he won't lose a move simply due to Fox having the same move as a custom. Plus Fox flash doesn't have any purple lightning.

Really!? Wolf only has 1 of his specials as a custom for Fox, not bringing a character back because they share a move with 1 or 2 characters is a stupid reason not to include them. and share some moves too, and is more of a clone of than . Also has Mario's fire ball as a custom, and now has the same back throw as .

Now that my angry rant is done, back on topic, I prefer most of Wario's default moves to his customs, his standard motorcycle is really good, my favorite Wario custom is the suction chomp (from Wario World) It has a wide range and can still eat projectiles.

You get only half the point. Having similar playstyle/clonish characters make that its harder for them to find ideas for customs. Says Ness and Lucas have PK Fire in common... They don't act at all the same but finding 2 other property for the move might be easy, finding 4 is another thing.

Wolf B moves are all pseudo copies of Fox/Falco. Since they already had to find 4 different way to add property to the moves, I'm only saying its going to be harder to find 2 more. Lets be honest, if falco and wolf didnt exist, Fox custom move would be their moves variant.

 

[Ultinarok]

This man is a ****ing knowledge sage

Errr...can't tell if sarcasm or what but...thanks? Lol. I don't know everything about Marth but I do know that he has always been forced to approach by a lack of projectile, and its much harder now that he can't SH double fair or safely use his aerials without lag. He still edgeguards like a boss and I really like him in this game actually. Tippers are incredible now and feel so good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Errr...can't tell if sarcasm or what but...thanks? Lol. I don't know everything about Marth but I do know that he has always been forced to approach by a lack of projectile, and its much harder now that he can't SH double fair or safely use his aerials without lag. He still edgeguards like a boss and I really like him in this game actually. Tippers are incredible now and feel so good.

nope. No sarcasm. People bring them up alot and ask the same questions and you summarized it really well as to why they are average.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Well that is why we are campaigning to show Sakurai we really want these characters back, heck @ CosmicEternity44 actually sent 2 extremely well written requests for more character DLC to Sakurai, and even had them translated into Japanese,
This man deserves a medal.
Anyway, I do like ROB's new side B, being able to get a hit at the end of the spin, and his aerials are pretty powerful, though some of his a attacks aren't as powerful, and due to his larger size, he gets hit more.

Heh heh! Thanks, Obnoxshush!

Maybe if Sakurai confirms he will do more DLC, I shall try to push for others as well, such as King K. Rool.

 

[NairWizard]

MK ignores every single trap situation ever.

Like seriously you people are fapping to combos when you need to be fapping to the fact that he doesnt care about any disadvantage situation he is put in EVER. He can teleport out for free.

lol. DUMB!!!!!

Abuse that ****.

Bingo. And this is why Meta Knight is still High/Top Tier. Having good advantage, disadvantage, and neutral is a rare quality that only the best characters have (such as Sheik, and Pikachu). On top of this, MK has great KO power. The character is crazy good.

His customs are sadly lackluster, however, so MK mains don't have much to be excited about when it comes to customs. Dreadful Tornado is worthwhile over regular Tornado against Ganondorf and other heaveis because KOing heavies with Shuttle Loop is risky. High Speed Drill Rush is good against characters like Mario when you want to power through weak projectiles. Beyond that, everything is worthless.

Before picking up MK, I had been on the lookout for a character who beats Greninja, Yoshi, Mario, and Sheik. MK is probably +1 in all of those matchups. At this point, I'm not sure if I'll stick with him because customs are upon us and Mii Gunner is fantastic, but he's a threat to watch out for as the metagame develops.

 

[Ffamran]

I do like the option of Fox having edgeguarding material, but iirc Wolf Flash has much less horizontal distance (most notably the end of the move cuts your horizontal recovery 100% as if you hit a wall).

It's a nifty option for anti-air, but not sure if it will realistically replace uair/bair pressure. It has a use on dthrow/fthrow followups, but the endlag is also there. Also makes recovering onto the stage a poor option, or resetting to neutral.

I'm curious how it will play out and I'm only speculating, but I'd hate to be in a position where I have to rely on upB more often than I already do.

Yeah, I when I unlocked it, I was sort of disappointed because Wolf wasn't there to use it by default, but I ended up seeing what it could do and the moment I saw that you didn't enter a helpless state and that it still meteored, I felt like Wolf Flash had potential. The issue is what it can do in practice vs. what it can do on paper. I mean, look at Explosive Punch on Mario. It makes Mario's recovery worse, but in practice, someone could make it extremely dangerous if they never have to leave the stage or get knocked off the stage. That's still a theory since skill level and creativity could make what seems crappy good.

MK ignores every single trap situation ever.

Like seriously you people are fapping to combos when you need to be fapping to the fact that he doesnt care about any disadvantage situation he is put in EVER. He can teleport out for free.

lol. DUMB!!!!!

Abuse that ****.

I think Zelda can do this too naturally with Nayru's Love and with customs, Farore's Squall, but I'm not sure since I think the Zelda boards are still testing it. The other thing is that Zelda isn't exactly mobile and can't do what Meta Knight can do, but she's still dangerous if you're screwing around or have no idea what to do.

You get only half the point. Having similar playstyle/clonish characters make that its harder for them to find ideas for customs. Says Ness and Lucas have PK Fire in common... They don't act at all the same but finding 2 other property for the move might be easy, finding 4 is another thing.

Wolf B moves are all pseudo copies of Fox/Falco. Since they already had to find 4 different way to add property to the moves, I'm only saying its going to be harder to find 2 more. Lets be honest, if falco and wolf didnt exist, Fox custom move would be their moves variant.

Optional: Mostly Off-topic since it's basically character speculation.

Spoiler

The whole customs things was kind of iffy since Link and Toon Link alone could have had Ice Arrows, Bomb Arrows, or even Light Arrows, but they ended up with a Quickfire/Piercing Bow and Power Bow. Well, at least Toon Link got Fire Arrows.

 

[mimgrim]

I know they can edgeguard, but it's not exactly safe as either because doc has bad recovery and greninja has a slow fair, weak bair, brief nair with a small duration, risky up b and side b and risky dair. I feel like they do better grounded, but that's just my two cents.

Greninja's Up Special is not risky and is a very potent edgeguarding/gimping tool (even after the nerfs), Bair isn't really weak and send at a good angle, Fair having slow start-up isn't a big deal as long as you know how to space it because it has low end-lag. Nair is bad off-stage because of high end-lag, Dair is "lol why you do dis" off stage. He also has Shuriken which is pretty useful for edge guarding. If you know what you are doing with him his edgeguarding game is pretty potent, if largely because of Up Special.

 

[Lavani]

Also worth noting bair starts fast and has good range and active frames, it's just an all-around great edgeguarding move.

Dair seems stupid at first, but Greninja can recover on whiff if he does it from the apex of a full jump or if he doublejumps first; the spike will easily kill, and even if he doesn't get the spike hit he can combo dair>fair for a kill as well. Bonus points for most opponents not expecting a Greninja to dair offstage, giving it the element of surprise.

Shadow Sneak can also be a potent edgeguarding tool used sparingly, as the shadow isn't visible offstage and it has a large hitbox with a lot of kill power. Customs add Exploding Attack (downB 2) which can be used in the same manner as Sheik's runoff Vanish.

Greninja's edgeguarding is great.

 

[Vincent21]

TL DR; I use this place for convenience and discussion. I'm not the only one on here throwing out ideas without full knowledge of the character. That's why we discuss, so we can see all sides of a topic. Anyway, I call a truce, so don't take anything I say offensively. I didn't mean to undersell Samus. I WANT her to be good, if anything. Every character deserves to be good.

I too use this forum to occasionally download character information. This place is typically stronger in that regard as well because you're more likely to find... well, not to be rude, but more competitively invested players. The player who gush over specific characters and the people who are interested in tier development and metagame dynamics, while not rigidly stuck within their worlds, tend towards different skill levels. That's not even a jab at people who just love their characters, but acceptance that you probably play a weeee bit more of this game than most if your actively choosing to spend your discussion time dissecting the metagame, and those are the players I want to be having this discussion with.

Again, I'm not Nairo, but just as something to point out:

You're a Falcon/Little Mac main. This means:
1. You probably favor rushdown, speedy, combo-friendly powerhouses, which Robin isn't.
2. You have a good match-up against her (to my knowledge), making her seem terrible when you face her, because Falcon/Little Mac get in easily and don't allow her to zone or setup easily thanks to dash grabs, generally speed, aerial setups, and armor on Mac's smashes, which she can't easily escape or deal with because she's slow.

Robin is a different playstyle, as @ Conda pointed out. Her playstyle struggles against the niche of character you use and excels against slower, less rush-friendly characters. She can go toe-to-toe with Mario, Luigi, the Pits, Bowser, Dorf, DK etc. But she can't deal with Sheik, Diddy, Falcon or Mac well (unless she gets Mac into the air).

Nairo could probably tell you the finer aspects of her character. But that may be why you don't see her strengths.

Very well and possible, but I did at one point give the character half a month, and my ultimate problem was always feeling like what I was using was a worse version of something else.

When I was using the levin sword to apply pressure and try to space, I felt like a worse Marth. Yeah pound for pound my swings can be stronger, but Marth swings are good all the time and have absurd early kill tippers.

When I'm pressure someone's shield with Arc-Fire to fish for a grab opening I'm just sitting there thinking "you know this would probably be so much easier if I were Ness and had more variety to my pressure game, better conversions, and a kill throw that rewards me even when I'm converting high % traps" (admittedly down-throw got me plenty of uair kills I didn't deserve)

When I'm recovering with Elwind I'm just there like "jesus, at least Little Mac has a wall jump and invincibility frames on UpB, an UpB that sharks ledges if you're ballsy. I can pose a rebuttal. It's not just me inviting anyone with decent aim and a passable meteor to claim free stocks from low recovery."

Those two are my listed mains, but my signature is a more accurate portrayal. I put a lot of hours in a lot of places because I believe the fundamentals in this game are tied most strongly to one's ability to space and engage in footsies. Smash 4 is so, so, so very much about both earning rewarding punishes and making the best of poor exchanges. I'm not entirely sure you could sum up my lack of success with Robin as merely being playstyle boxed (especially with how much success I've begun seeing with Villager and Dark Pit lately). I think there are things about this character I'm simply not processing, and that's where my eagerness to get educated comes from. If there is something to this character, my self-study missed it, clearly. I want to find out where I wasn't looking, and where the difference in thought lies. It'll improve me later moving forward.

AND ACTUALLY, THAT HAS ME WILLING TO MAKE A CASE THIS DAY.

I'm actually going to come down with Nairo on Zelda now, because this is something I've been ruminating on for a while now. I play with a Zelda main whose put in their time. Successful elevators, strong spacing, and all that. Doesn't always save the day; the character is still flawed, but I noticed something. While Zelda loses a lot of exchanges, and in general has a hard time making characters respect her spacing options and limited strong points, there has always historically been one thing that has always been dreadful about fighting this character.

Disadvantage state. Hers. The difference is nothing. Gain neutral control? Neat. Good luck converting it into anything. Between the ridiculously strong get-off-me button neutralB is, the sheer distance her teleport offers her, ledge canceling, and the surprisingly smaller-than-you-think punish windows that round out her kit mean that whether she's in neutral, above you coming off of a juggle opening, in a scenario where you compromised her zoning... It's all the same to her. You have to respect Nayru the Girl's Best Friend, you have to respect consistently placed sweetspots, and therefore your ability to maximize on putting her in disadvantage relies almost completely on HARD reading teleports, before or afters. Just because you can predict and disrespect Side and Down B on a regular basis does not mean you can actually walk all over her. Even when you're winning, you're struggling to convert your advantage into immediate results.

This is especially jarring to me because the bulk of my hours, naturally, come from characters so drastically more... well... DISADVANTAGED in their disadvantage state. LM's disadvantage state is the thing he looks for under his bed at night; Falcon and Ganon feel similarly. While Wario is rather adept and managing and making strides from disadvantage, 3 of my Big 4 don't experience anything close to what Zelda does, and it got me thinking of how much sense that makes out of character derision or misappropriation seen across these pages.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So I think Rosalina is the best character in the game with customs....

 

[Conda]

Also worth noting bair starts fast and has good range and active frames, it's just an all-around great edgeguarding move.

Dair seems stupid at first, but Greninja can recover on whiff if he does it from the apex of a full jump or if he doublejumps first; the spike will easily kill, and even if he doesn't get the spike hit he can combo dair>fair for a kill as well. Bonus points for most opponents not expecting a Greninja to dair offstage, giving it the element of surprise.

Shadow Sneak can also be a potent edgeguarding tool used sparingly, as the shadow isn't visible offstage and it has a large hitbox with a lot of kill power. Customs add Exploding Attack (downB 2) which can be used in the same manner as Sheik's runoff Vanish.

Greninja's edgeguarding is great.

Yeah his down-air edgeguarding is potent. The frog can do a lot. This is stuff I pointed out and showed in my Greninja tips & tricks guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAhlcOKfOMQ

 

[Vincent21]

Bingo. And this is why Meta Knight is still High/Top Tier. Having good advantage, disadvantage, and neutral is a rare quality that only the best characters have (such as Sheik, and Pikachu). On top of this, MK has great KO power. The character is crazy good.

His customs are sadly lackluster, however, so MK mains don't have much to be excited about when it comes to customs. Dreadful Tornado is worthwhile over regular Tornado against Ganondorf and other heaveis because KOing heavies with Shuttle Loop is risky. High Speed Drill Rush is good against characters like Mario when you want to power through weak projectiles. Beyond that, everything is worthless.

Before picking up MK, I had been on the lookout for a character who beats Greninja, Yoshi, Mario, and Sheik. MK is probably +1 in all of those matchups. At this point, I'm not sure if I'll stick with him because customs are upon us and Mii Gunner is fantastic, but he's a threat to watch out for as the metagame develops.

Can we talk about this Mii Gunner thing? I mean, heck from where I am at this very second I wouldn't even mind a borderline online 3DS play examples in friendlies with you or whatever but I really, really want in on the Mii Gunner train and after doing enough 1v1s with the character I'm inclined to feel there is something to your words...

...but I have no idea how to kill people. Dsmash and bair are like the only things I really like I'm consistently closing with, and even that's not the easier thing in the world. Not only does fsmash require a pretty adept hard read, but it plays with my heartstrings and leaves survivors sometimes.

Halp pls. Frand. Halp. I've been meaning to develop this tech with someone for a while but I haven't found anyone who agrees.

 

[Ffamran]

So I think Rosalina is the best character in the game with customs....

Mind explaining why? 'Cause I don't have all of her customs - I think I have one - and only being able to observe from older videos doesn't exactly help. Others might fall under this too or just don't know how useful or how to use her customs. I only heard of that "Falco laser, but better" custom and seeing Luma Warp from time to time.

 

[Antonykun]

So all the Villager forum have agreed that she is a counterpick character.
Now I need to pick someone up that can deal with her really bad MUs. @zeezee who is the best Villager player right now recommended Sheik and while I don't mind her I would like to know some other options. It's kinda a shame that Wario shares a lot of bad MUs with Villager.

 

[NairWizard]

Can we talk about this Mii Gunner thing? I mean, heck from where I am at this very second I wouldn't even mind a borderline online 3DS play examples in friendlies with you or whatever but I really, really want in on the Mii Gunner train and after doing enough 1v1s with the character I'm inclined to feel there is something to your words...

...but I have no idea how to kill people. Dsmash and bair are like the only things I really like I'm consistently closing with, and even that's not the easier thing in the world. Not only does fsmash require a pretty adept hard read, but it plays with my heartstrings and leaves survivors sometimes.

Halp pls. Frand. Halp. I've been meaning to develop this tech with someone for a while but I haven't found anyone who agrees.

Getting KOs is the obstacle I'm trying to overcome as well at this point in my gameplay. You may have to ask @ san. about this one; he's been playing Mii Gunner in tournament recently a lot, and has achieved more than I have with the character.

Here are a few things that can help:
1) don't focus on getting the KO until after 120%, when many of Mii Gunner's moves start to KO and you don't have to fish for it
2) try to get early f-air gimps
3) go for the edgeguard. Mii Gunner's edgeguarding is superb
4) don't be reckless, but don't be afraid to take risks. I don't think this character is bad in disadvantage due to f-air momentum shifts and grenades and down-b, so getting knocked around a bit is acceptable

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

You get only half the point. Having similar playstyle/clonish characters make that its harder for them to find ideas for customs. Says Ness and Lucas have PK Fire in common... They don't act at all the same but finding 2 other property for the move might be easy, finding 4 is another thing.

Wolf B moves are all pseudo copies of Fox/Falco. Since they already had to find 4 different way to add property to the moves, I'm only saying its going to be harder to find 2 more. Lets be honest, if falco and wolf didnt exist, Fox custom move would be their moves variant.

Standard B: Blaster
Custom B2: Quick draw, Wolf pulls out his blaster quickly, and fires four shots (Fox's blaster shots), bayonet does less damage
Custom B3: Charge blade, Wolf holds up his blaster, charging it before bringing the bayonet down and firing a powerful shot, much slower and more powerful then standard blaster, and the blaster shot deals knockback too.

Standard side B: Wolf Flash
Custom side B2: Wolf Pounce, similar to Little Mac's jolt haymaker, except it deals the same damage in the air or on the ground, is not as powerful, and Wolf can recover with Up B from it.
Custom side B3: Wolf Strike, basically Wolf flash, except it goes further, is more powerful, and has a longer startup time than Wolf Flash, you can still recover with up B out of it.

Standard up B: Fire Wolf
Custom up B2: Light Wolf, Wolf shoots up higher and faster, but only does damage at the end of the move.
Custom up B3: Blast Wolf, Wolf charges up and goes further and deals more damage, however there is a greater startup time.

Standard down B: Reflector
Custom down B2: Counter beam, the reflector acts as a counter, it can still reflect projectiles, but not until after the counter animation is done.
Custom down B3: Blade reflector, Wolf shoots out his reflector like beams, they travel slowly a short distance before disappearing, deal minor damage when come into contact with fighters, and can reflect projectiles, Wolf can only shoot the blade reflector out again when both pieces have disappeared, which should be quick.

Pretty sure Sakurai and his team could come up with good custom moves too.

 

[Conda]

Requesting that we don't post hypothetical character posts here, let's stay on topic and not too eagerly demonstrate our longing for certain veterans to return.

Sakuraaiiiiiiii

 

[san.]

Getting KOs is the obstacle I'm trying to overcome as well at this point in my gameplay. You may have to ask @ san. about this one; he's been playing Mii Gunner in tournament recently a lot, and has achieved more than I have with the character.

Here are a few things that can help:
1) don't focus on getting the KO until after 120%, when many of Mii Gunner's moves start to KO and you don't have to fish for it
2) try to get early f-air gimps
3) go for the edgeguard. Mii Gunner's edgeguarding is superb
4) don't be reckless, but don't be afraid to take risks. I don't think this character is bad in disadvantage due to f-air momentum shifts and grenades and down-b, so getting knocked around a bit is acceptable

It was a hurdle I had to figure outout along with increasing damage output from 8% to 20+%. www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu4B8md_xzo is early footage where I seldom used smash attacks. I was still able to kill with utilt, grenade, and bomb. These are the most noncommittal kill moves. Utilt is frame 5 and bombs/grenades are good near blastzones. I have since gotten used to using smashes a bit more. Even then, there are still those who may play defensively and only allow the safest attacks to hit them.

Fsmash is a ledge trap only at kill %. Its damage is too low to use otherwise. You can pull it off by trapping ledge and offstage options using other attacks such as grenade. Only the last hit of fsmash matters and it should be used near its max reach to avoid punishment. It kills well when charged, sometimes as early as 70-80% with rage at the edge and semi-fully charged.

Dsmash is best used with your back to the edge. It can cover normal getup and rolls, and it can punish whiffs.

Usmash works situationally. They may escape if they weren't hit by the beginning of the first hitbox.

Uair and fair kill at mid-high % off the top and side respectively and are both difficult to avoid.

I suggest going for the smashes occasionally since they can net a kill at 90% from a small read with little in the way of punishment when covered properly.

 

[Vincent21]

It was a hurdle I had to figure outout along with increasing damage output from 8% to 20+%. www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu4B8md_xzo is early footage where I seldom used smash attacks. I was still able to kill with utilt, grenade, and bomb. These are the most noncommittal kill moves. Utilt is frame 5 and bombs/grenades are good near blastzones. I have since gotten used to using smashes a bit more. Even then, there are still those who may play defensively and only allow the safest attacks to hit them.

Fsmash is a ledge trap only at kill %. Its damage is too low to use otherwise. You can pull it off by trapping ledge and offstage options using other attacks such as grenade. Only the last hit of fsmash matters and it should be used near its max reach to avoid punishment. It kills well when charged, sometimes as early as 70-80% with rage at the edge and semi-fully charged.

Dsmash is best used with your back to the edge. It can cover normal getup and rolls, and it can punish whiffs.

Usmash works situationally. They may escape if they weren't hit by the beginning of the first hitbox.

Uair and fair kill at mid-high % off the top and side respectively and are both difficult to avoid.

I suggest going for the smashes occasionally since they can net a kill at 90% from a small read with little in the way of punishment when covered properly.

Well hellooooo this is quite something. But lemme talk to ya about the build, if you don't mind.

A friendly match that I think helps showcase a good array of Mii Gunner's options in certain scenarios for neutral, disadvantage, and advantage states.

Height: Halfway between Minimum and Standard (around Mega Man's height)
Weight: Minimum Weight

Fast with decent range. Mid height is a little too slow and minimum height doesn't have enough range. Kill differences between minimum and maximum weight aren't significant.

Specials:
Neutral B: Grenade Launch- Versatile, long lasting, can hide in the explosion or use it to control space. Some combo potential with fast attacks or good positioning.

Side B: Gunner Missile- Long range option. Laggy when used in the air. Super missile has combo ability, shield damage, and less lag. Regular missile has good homing (better than Samus') and high lag

upB: Cannon Uppercut- Low vertical distance and poor horizontal distance (think Mario's upB). Only upB that has a hitbox above Gunner. Has a spiking hitbox at Gunner's body and below. You can autosnap the ledge with the spike hitbox still coming out as seen later in the match.

DownB: Bomb Drop- Covers Grenade Launch's holes: Comes out faster and below Gunner. Slightly more endlag. Easy to fastfall at the same time. You can also hide inside/behind the bomb and has good combo potential.

Until I watched this game and the way the increase in height affected your projectile trajectories I'd been using minimum/minimum. I can see the difference, and I didn't think I would, so this already opened my eyes a little to start.

Neutral B and DownB are pretty much the specials that make this character work. The insane levels of pressure you can apply between smart bombs and grenades is quite simply unfair, and with the ability to basically z-drop those things with a mid-air pivot (pivot bombing? names? does it matter?) you can control space around yourself with this character so insanely well. I'm very much enjoying that. I at one point was wary of UpB because of the reduced vertical distance from the non-hitbox variant, but ultimately I agree with you because of how important those hitboxes are.

But I have to admit... missiles didn't contribute much in that exhibition at all, and I'd like to make an argument for the fire pillar.

You see, while you were able to put out a hitbox threat at ledges with strait shooters, that is clearly something grenades with charge time would've done been because of their lasting multiple hits, and the endlag and start lag and air lag all tend to make the missiles akin to the commitment level that goes with a charged grenade anyway. The only fired missile that seemed relevant during the entire engagement was the homing missile that put Shiek in shield before you arrived on the scene. That's

However what the fire pillar brings to the table is a huge advancement on your ground game. To put it simply it hugely disadvantages characters like Falcon (and to a lesser extent Shiek) by allowing you to react to dashes and ground approaches by completely shutting those options out. The lasting hitbox and quick shot mean being able to deny ground approaches on command and punish dashes even when you're not in a position to do so with your other two projectiles, due the aerial angle of the fire pillar conveniently filling that space between the arch of the grenade and the down-angle of the bomb. While at first glance it might look lackluster the sheer utility it gives you on the ground I really think Mii Gunners should be running it.

 

[Smog Frog]

alright i feel like discussing mii brawler since i've had time to experiment with him/her against humans

mii brawler can punish from across the stage like sonic can because he's so ****ing fast(runs at c. falcon speeds on the ground, and has one of the highest, if not the highest, air speed in the game, on top of falco size jumps and feint jump+feint jump kick)and gets similar damage from these punishes because his/her combos are around 30~ a pop, 40-50 if you can read di. the side special is honestly unimportant, and onslaught is used because there's nothing better to use. the neutral special is a matter of opinion, i prefer ultimate uppercut to force more pressure. now the up special, there's no question. helicopter kick is the only one you should be using. helicopter kick does big damage, can be comboed into in so many ways, and is an amazing oos option. the down special is reserved for feint jump because of the extra mobility it provides. feint jump kick also has a large amount of disjoint, it beats diddy's side b. his normals are also pretty great, with alot of combo starters(crossup bair, fair, falling uair, nair can break comboes, ftilt is nice and quick, dtilt can start combos, utilt can link stuff together, fsmash is super strong, dsmash is quick and covers both sides, and usmash can be a combo finisher at lower %s) and he has alot of kill setups into copter kick. mii brawler(small thin) is easy top 10 in my eyes, contender for top 5. sorry if this post was incoherent, its like 2 in the morning here

 

[mimgrim]

Dair seems stupid at first, but Greninja can recover on whiff if he does it from the apex of a full jump or if he doublejumps first; the spike will easily kill, and even if he doesn't get the spike hit he can combo dair>fair for a kill as well. Bonus points for most opponents not expecting a Greninja to dair offstage, giving it the element of surprise.

Eh. I still find it a mostly bad option even when done from where he will survive because it ends up putting him in a pretty bad position if he misses. I don't like the risk involved.

So all the Villager forum have agreed that she is a counterpick character.

Took ya'll long enough to realize it.

 

[Saturn_]

Has anyone found complimentary characters? Dabuz used Rosalina and Olimar as a starter, are there any characters out there that you have found compliment each other well? If you co-main, who are they and why did you pick them?

 

[incrediblej]

Has anyone found complimentary characters? Dabuz used Rosalina and Olimar as a starter, are there any characters out there that you have found compliment each other well? If you co-main, who are they and why did you pick them?

I main toon lunk, lucario, and waka waka, I pocket link for certain characters i have trouble with rest like captain falcon which for some reason I can only beat using link out of those 4

 

[mimgrim]

I mostly play Greninja and Jiggs but not because I think they compliment each other, I'm not comfotable on MUs yet to really decide. I just play both of them because their fun and feel the best to play. Once the meta starts maturing more and MUs start becoming more concrete I'll eventually swap one of them out (probably Jiggs), unfortunately, if they end up not complimenting each other. I might try adding a 3rd character to the mix instead but that seems like a bit much.

 

[Saturn_]

I want to have a character who has beefy give-the-opponent-a-hug gameplay and a character who uses zoning tactics to keep the opponent away. So far I've been pairing Ike and Luigi but I've been looking at lots of other characters. I really wonder if it won't take me months to pick a main...

 

[Vincent21]

I want to have a character who has beefy give-the-opponent-a-hug gameplay and a character who uses zoning tactics to keep the opponent away. So far I've been pairing Ike and Luigi but I've been looking at lots of other characters. I really wonder if it won't take me months to pick a main...

Giving hugs?

Well now that customs are a thing, Bowser has access to weapons grade, long distance, high-caliber, bolt-action hugs from the consummate hug-heavy killer of the 21st century.

Also for the second slot most of the characters I play say hi, on some level.

 

[mimgrim]

Giving hugs?

As in being really close to the opponent.

Most prominent example being the Puffster's Rest which pretty much requires you to be inside the opponent.

All the Puff Ball of cuteness wants is a hug of death!

 

[incrediblej]

I've been trying olimars customs I only have 4 unlocked being his throw which makes all thrown piks act like a purple without kb which seems like preference or mu dependent, his winged jump recovery which doesn't seem all that good , and all the plucks and it's more for preference except explosive which is terrible because the piks health is already low as it is don't need any lower I say hardy pluck works well seeing that whenever you use any pluck is when you escape which might as well put extra effort and time to get stronger piks which I like

 

[HeroMystic]

@Locke 06 @TriTails

So remembering the discussion from before, I've played Samus against a pretty good Luigi player at a Smashfest a number of times and I feel I have a decent grip on the MU as a whole.

For one thing, Samus combos Luigi pretty effectively (Even better than Mario... which is surprising). Dash Attack goes through fireballs and sets up U-air/Up-B chains pretty well. D-throw > F-air is pretty good on Luigi, and landing B-air is great because Luigi is so floaty, therefore making him an easy target. Finally, Charge Shot and Screw Attack are very, very good to use vs Luigi because he wants to get in very badly. D-tilt is also very effective on punishing any wreckless approaches from the ground.

Once Luigi is in though, it's business-as-usual. Samus has a really hard time getting Luigi off of her. While Luigi does have to look out for proper DI against his D-throws, it really sucks for Samus when Luigi is doing D-throw combos and all she can really do is use DI. None of her aerials come out fast enough to contest Luigi and drifting to the ledge is the best she can do to get out of pressure. At that point though, Luigi has the stage and it's really rough for Samus to set up Charge Shot. Oh, and fireballs not only cancels out Super Missiles, but it also cancels half-charged shots. This means if Luigi is close, and he just spams Fireballs, Samus is really hard-pressed to do something, and it's really difficult to charge up when he's doing this, though it's possible.

While Luigi on-stage presence is strong, Samus's edgeguarding is legitimately powerful vs Luigi due to charge shot, Z-air, F-air, and D-air. When Luigi is thrown off-stage he is in major trouble vs Samus if done correctly. The fact he has to use Green Missile alone should let you know how easy it is for Samus to end his life and take early kills.

Overall, this is still in Luigi's favor because of how much he has against Samus on stage, but it's no more than 60:40 in Luigi's favor.

This MU (along with Falcon's and Rosalina's) taught me that Samus' CQC is not as bad as it looks, and it synergizes well with her long ranged zoning. What you don't want to do is rely on it. Stage Control is still very important for Samus and the CQC is there to snatch it back when you lost it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

@Locke 06 @TriTails

So remembering the discussion from before, I've played Samus against a pretty good Luigi player at a Smashfest a number of times and I feel I have a decent grip on the MU as a whole.

For one thing, Samus combos Luigi pretty effectively (Even better than Mario... which is surprising). Dash Attack goes through fireballs and sets up U-air/Up-B chains pretty well. D-throw > F-air is pretty good on Luigi, and landing B-air is great because Luigi is so floaty, therefore making him an easy target. Finally, Charge Shot and Screw Attack are very, very good to use vs Luigi because he wants to get in very badly. D-tilt is also very effective on punishing any wreckless approaches from the ground.

Once Luigi is in though, it's business-as-usual. Samus has a really hard time getting Luigi off of her. While Luigi does have to look out for proper DI against his D-throws, it really sucks for Samus when Luigi is doing D-throw combos and all she can really do is use DI. None of her aerials come out fast enough to contest Luigi and drifting to the ledge is the best she can do to get out of pressure. At that point though, Luigi has the stage and it's really rough for Samus to set up Charge Shot. Oh, and fireballs not only cancels out Super Missiles, but it also cancels half-charged shots. This means if Luigi is close, and he just spams Fireballs, Samus is really hard-pressed to do something, and it's really difficult to charge up when he's doing this, though it's possible.

While Luigi on-stage presence is strong, Samus's edgeguarding is legitimately powerful vs Luigi due to charge shot, Z-air, F-air, and D-air. When Luigi is thrown off-stage he is in major trouble vs Samus if done correctly. The fact he has to use Green Missile alone should let you know how easy it is for Samus to end his life and take early kills.

Overall, this is still in Luigi's favor because of how much he has against Samus on stage, but it's no more than 60:40 in Luigi's favor.

This MU (along with Falcon's and Rosalina's) taught me that Samus' CQC is not as bad as it looks, and it synergizes well with her long ranged zoning. What you don't want to do is rely on it. Stage Control is still very important for Samus and the CQC is there to snatch it back when you lost it.

Basically in a nut shell what is being said is that samus's cqc is not for actually contesting against others cqc but more apart of her stage control in a form. Independently her range game or her cqc is lack luster but they mesh together quite well to make, well somthing. (nobody else is really like this i don't know what to call it.)

 

[Vincent21]

(nobody else is really like this i don't know what to call it.)

Robin? Levin sword is cute but it wouldn't float a character without the pressure/zoning mesh that is thunder+fire

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Robin? Levin sword is cute but it wouldn't float a character without the pressure/zoning mesh that is thunder+fire

ehh maybe i actually don't know enough about robin tbh. but from what i know frame traps are his specialty, his combos themselves rather short.
But thats just from what iv seen though some one with more experience with him would probably give a better answer.


all i know is that i want robin's u air on pit.

 

[Vincent21]

all i know is that i want robin's u air on pit.

laaaaaaaawdy that'd be cute. I would settle for a downB THAT I DIDN'T NEED TO GET AN ENGAGEMENT RING FOR WHEN I PRESSED THE BUTTON (forgive me for having commitment issues with punishable moves)