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The sour spot is in about the same place as zss's Bair but bigger. You need to space it for the sweet spot like almost every other Bair. The sour spot is weak though.
For people who are picking up Samus for half a week to see how bad she is. Stop. That's actually disgusting you think you can come up with a definitive opinion of a character based on half a week of play, let alone "a few games." The fact that you didn't even mention one of her most important tools (Z-Air) screams ignorance.
Good post on Robin, but no - Robin can NOT projectile camp. H/She's literally designed not to. Our discussion on characters becomes unhelpful when we start pretending characters are more polarized than they actually are. Robin is a punish and read-based character, not a campy projectile character. Robin is far too slow to do this, but also literally limited by ammo and cannot camp 'all day'. You never want to toss thunders out willy-nilly, same goes for arcfires as they are too valuable to waste. The moment you have no more arcfire's left is when your opponent can safely approach without much of the danger Robin usually presents.
Dedede's Up Air isn't just decent, in my opinion, it beats almost anything and everything that dares to challenge it. Diddy has to legitimately worry about Link and Toon Link's dairs, but the Hylians really have to think twice about trying to pull the same stunt on Dedede because his Up Air demolishes them in that situation.
Considering what a vast quantity of these customs turn out to be better, strong or faster projectiles, wind-box style "get off me" moves, and trade-ins on moves to reduce recovery for armor or raw power? Its very likely the game gets more defensiveDunno, I haven't read the details of Evo's ruleset in detail. If you want to find out about ruleset news, be sure to head to the ruleset thread. It'd be just as strange to go to the ruleset thread and ask "So what do you guys think about the Mario vs Sheik matchup?"
So - are the anti-camp/evasion/timeout strategies bolstered by customs-on as much as the anti-camp/evasion/timeout strategies are bolstered?
Eh, I played a fair lot of Samus in BBrawl. She hasn't really changed that drastically, she just got a few buffs along with a lot of totally unnecessary nerfs.
Key word "at times". All the rest of those times you'd rather just have the strong hit.
This is why it should be UpB that has the kill power. It just doesn't.
This is not true. The move is "awkward" because it has deadzones. Being better does not allow you to mitigate this, there will always be places the move just refuses to hit at that makes it easier for your opponent to work around the move. See all the DK mainers complaining about deadzones on his attacks for example.
I probably worded things incorrectly. I didn't mean offense by saying "seeing how bad she is". I meant only to see where her fundamental flaws were in her basics. I obviously know nothing of her advanced metagame. I know zair is good, but it got nerfed in this game to my knowledge and isn't as good of a tool as it used to be. I'm not proclaiming myself the all-know master of Samus after a few games, I was just noting some areas that are immediately noticeable to be somewhat lacking. It was a "first impressions" sort of thing, to be taken with a grain of salt. I am not building a guide on Samus out of so little experience, so don't get so offended.
Again, my wording was awkward. She can't camp indefinitely, but her Arcfire triggers heavy punishes on heavyweights/fast fallers, because they have a hard time getting out of it before she grabs and punishes. As my post points out, her real strengths are punishing and spacing, and having excellent kill tools and good survival skills. I play Robin occasionally, and again, I'm no expert on her character at all, but I know where she excels and where she lacks. I basically meant to say that characters who can't get in quickly will have Robin get in and punish heavily.Good post on Robin, but no - Robin can NOT projectile camp. H/She's literally designed not to. Our discussion on characters becomes unhelpful when we start pretending characters are more polarized than they actually are. Robin is a punish and read-based character, not a campy projectile character. Robin is far too slow to do this, but also literally limited by ammo and cannot camp 'all day'. You never want to toss thunders out willy-nilly, same goes for arcfires as they are too valuable to waste. The moment you have no more arcfire's left is when your opponent can safely approach without much of the danger Robin usually presents.
To those reading - please understand this and realise that playing Robin like a camper is going to get you nowhere, and good Robins won't play that way. They will gladly get in your face with a charged thunder in their pocket, pressure your shield with arcfire, go in for a grab, throw you, hit you with an uair, then trap your landing with thunder. Robin can do a lot when s/he's in. Kind of reminds me of Falco in a way.
Hopefully that helps you out in realising the playstyle and mindset that allows Robin to excel and play to his/her strengths in order to be successful. Nairo has spoken about this a lot on stream as well if you want to know his personal insight. Also @Nairo - you should really give Falco a try - he seems to fit the playstyle you have with Robin/Pit very well.
No worries, I'm just always thinking about the lurkers and readers of this thread. There's a big difference between projectile camping and zoning. What robin can do with arcfire is zoning, not camping, and it's important to me to let readers see the distinction and not be potentially confused or mislead.
Cheers for the informative posts otherwise, keep it up.
Agreed on a lot of those accounts. I felt like the original post completely undersold her more than I felt she deserved, which is somewhat hard to do considering I consider her one of the worst characters in the game.
Ah ok. For some reason I thought Jet Hammer was better than Brawl and actually useful because it seemed fast and very rewarding in KO power on hit, but that shows how much I know about its finer aspects. I like Dedede, I just noticed some of those things during my play time with him (which is more than just a few games in all btw, just not much recently). I guess my only beef with the sourspots is more that the end lag of the moves, coupled with the low knockback, doesn't seem good for follow-ups without being punished. But if you main him you probably know about that than me of course.
I'd say going to the character forums is a good way to learn about a character you don't know about. I just don't think this is a great place for first impression/somewhat uninformed posts.
True. I spend a lot of time over there reading and analyzing. I just like this thread because if you have ANY question about any character, there is likely a main somewhere on board who can correct you, agree with you etc. It is universally useful to learning the finer aspects of all characters simultaneously, and no discussion about a relevant character is off-topic. Keep in mind I didn't even start visiting this thread until yesterday. Until then, I had stuck to the individual character sections.
@Nairo take this one.
This was the question, @Nairo . I just legit find the character's combination of poor mobility, floatiness, and slow predictable wind-up on the Fire+Thunder projectile game to all spell, theoretically, a death sentence for character quality, even WITH the levin sword. Adding the arbitrary charge system and a predictable, incredibly gimpable recovery and I struggle to see what this character can do.
Well, this place is way more active. Some of the character board topics get like 3 posts a day.
It's a vicious cycle that feeds into itself.
Again, I'm not Nairo, but just as something to point out:
Conda
pointed out. Her playstyle struggles against the niche of character you use and excels against slower, less rush-friendly characters. She can go toe-to-toe with Mario, Luigi, the Pits, Bowser, Dorf, DK etc. But she can't deal with Sheik, Diddy, Falcon or Mac well (unless she gets Mac into the air).
Samus is wierd. iv labbed her for 3 months so far. Iv bolded what i dissagree with.
Dense charge shot is also situationally incredible, I believe.
Idk some of these character boards are dead. While others are just lacking.
Just to clarify - Robin is not really too floaty. S/He has an amazing FF speed and can be very mobile vertically, and has good aerial mobility too. You really do feel like a swordie in the air as Robin, and it's definitely a trait that Robin has to take advantage of because it's the only real form of mobility that s/he has.'
It's good to talk about those characters in gray areas - weak in some important areas, but clearly strong/effective in many important areas too.
I agree with many of your points. Her tilts are great, usmash is garbage, but utilt makes up for it by being harder to punish and stronger (why?). Usmash basically only hits super tall characters. At least it includes rosalina. Utilt nets me lots of kills against people coming back to the stage.
It's true that my opinion that Samus is bottom 5 is based on Customs off. Still, 15 frame startup is kinda lame. Still may be worth using in some matchups as a combo followup, but not against characters with strong pressure where you need the OOS option to keep them from just running a train.
I just find it weird that she has one two-hit jab string intended to perform two different roles at different times. Many characters have two strings to balance this out, like Falcon or Pit. I agree her dair is good, it just has a long, awkward startup considering how floaty she is (not as bad as Brawl) which makes it hard to land offstage for the spike. Seems better onstage as a short hop approach option.
Xygonn
I didn't mention the weight and floatiness thing because she's always been like that as one of her traits iirc. The screw attack is definitely better. Dair spike off of the stage into Up-B is brutal if they fail to tech.
Puff is still best air swordie tho.
I was speaking more about Marth's trademark floatiness, but fast FF speed which gives very good aerial control. Robin has this too, and can move fairly well horizontally in the air too. You definitely feel fully in control of your aerial movement as Robin, which is a definitely good thing and something that allows him/her to use the levin sword aerials effectively, as well as stay mobile vertically. Robin is a great sh FF jumper and can stay mobile this way, as @Nairo often shows.
yeah her jab really is trouble some but its also a move you can't simple say no to using either you just need it despite how useless it can be at times. (fun note though it links properly if u managed to stuff your opponent in the air.)I just find it weird that she has one two-hit jab string intended to perform two different roles at different times. Many characters have two strings to balance this out, like Falcon or Pit. I agree her dair is good, it just has a long, awkward startup considering how floaty she is (not as bad as Brawl) which makes it hard to land offstage for the spike. Seems better onstage as a short hop approach option.
I learned about bair shortly after. The sweetspot and sourspot are hard to differentiate sometimes in the animation so I didn't even realize there was a sweetspot. I just kept landing the sourspot and thinking "why is this so weak?" Sweetspot is much better, so there's that.
@
F-Smash is good, I just wish its sourspot was just a bit stronger to even out more of her KO issues. She can't depend solely on her risky Up-B, avoidable Charge Shot, sweetspot bair and hard-to-spike-with dair every time. She needs one kill move that's always reliable.
This. One of their best traits currently. I think it's because their tools to actually get opponents offstage, like aerial pressure, have been nerfed. Their neutral game is problematic and they can't approach easily or force approaches, so the edgeguarding is kind of bittersweet. They'd be godlike in doubles when paired with a character with the opposite problem, like maybe dr. Mario or greninja.
Little Mac?
It has always been one of her traits, but in a game where Hoo Hah! gets a lot of play, it's nice to have a character that is safe from it starting at relatively low percents. Also, it's pretty easy to DI out of ZSS up b.I just find it weird that she has one two-hit jab string intended to perform two different roles at different times. Many characters have two strings to balance this out, like Falcon or Pit. I agree her dair is good, it just has a long, awkward startup considering how floaty she is (not as bad as Brawl) which makes it hard to land offstage for the spike. Seems better onstage as a short hop approach option.
I learned about bair shortly after. The sweetspot and sourspot are hard to differentiate sometimes in the animation so I didn't even realize there was a sweetspot. I just kept landing the sourspot and thinking "why is this so weak?" Sweetspot is much better, so there's that.
@
F-Smash is good, I just wish its sourspot was just a bit stronger to even out more of her KO issues. She can't depend solely on her risky Up-B, avoidable Charge Shot, sweetspot bair and hard-to-spike-with dair every time. She needs one kill move that's always reliable.
You're forgetting the part where doubles is literally 100% about team attack shenanigans.
