Character Competitive Impressions

[san.]

what does this nado spike or somthing?

@ mimgrim
i have some serious issue's with time comsuption when it comes to mii sizes if u like i or not they need to be standardized. we cant be having people go back into mii maker just to get there preffered size. also if u want mii's to get there extra moves im guessing u also want palutena's?

It takes a minute if you know what you're doing. Skip through making the face right to the slider for height/weight, then click okay. Much more total time per tournament is consumed for people to choose their custom controls. Not 100% of the users will need Mii Maker, but it will be distributed with those who are able to transfer.

 

[Saturn_]

Top 16 at Paragon featured four Diddys, two Sonics, and no other character with more than one appearance. Does this change anyone's opinion on Sheik being the best, which is something I've heard a lot of people say?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It takes a minute if you know what you're doing. Skip through making the face right to the slider for height/weight, then click okay. Much more total time per tournament is consumed for people to choose their custom controls. Not 100% of the users will need Mii Maker, but it will be distributed with those who are able to transfer.

i dont think u take inconsideration the time it takes to load up one game than save exit while saving said data than re booting up smash witch take at least 1.30 mins to load the first mena screen. counted my self. it will slow things down.

also i dont belive thereisanyway to alter or create a mii inside the smash game.

 

[Shaya]

@Amazing Ampharos

If you couldn't see the situations in which that tipper tilt or aerial that you [got] hit with [by] Lucina which would've killed on Marth, then I'd say say you're missing out on perspective.

Also Lucario having a poor neutral is pretty critical. I put time into learning to play the character as well and I was disillusioned by how poorly he actually is dealing with the characters you're picking him for (something you'd expect from a character of top tier stature). Oh you want Lucario for Sheik? I'm pretty sure we aren't seeing him take out sheiks frequently like pre-patch/3DS, sheik's edge guarding game and significantly better neutral (i.e. every tool is twice the range and/or start up of Lucarios) developing doesn't bode well. Pikachu and Sonic, the characters which feared him in Brawl? I'm not seeing him handling either well when they have significantly better grab games and mobility and are almost universally buffed from the prior game, while the impact of Lucario's range nerfs from Brawl and post-wifi 3ds blues (remember little mac?) get more apparent and felt by the day. It's honestly better for the game Lucario isn't able to overwhelm most of the cast by sheer survivability + virtually unstoppable aura; because that's what it felt like with vectoring around and 3-10 frames of delay on wifi.
You know who else can take stocks in three reads? Heck, two? Ganondorf. No requirements necessary other than a good power shield in mid range. Or the roll hard read that we all love to see. Lucario has to take 100% while hopefully getting the opponent to 80% in trades or otherwise before he's applying that much pressure.

 

[san.]

i dont think u take inconsideration the time it takes to load up one game than save exit while saving said data than re booting up smash witch take at least 1.30 mins to load the first mena screen. counted my self. it will slow things down.

also i dont belive thereisanyway to alter or create a mii inside the smash game.

I did. Around 10 seconds to close the game, 10 seconds to open Mii maker, 6 seconds to close mii maker, ~18 seconds to start up Smash 4. I suggest just testing it yourself, since I'm speaking from experience having to create many different Miis for testing when my Smash 4 was already playing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Posting because @ Shaya mentioned Ganondorf.

I was talking to Gungnir a long time ago, I think basically he effectively said in a worst case scenario, Ganondorf will kill his opponent in ten hits.

Usually though, his two-read KOs happen from perfect edgeguarding. I think as I've stated before, Ganondorf is the most lethal edgeguarder in the game, in the sense that his ability to end your stock after covering basic options is pretty much unrivaled. Marth is a character who comes close, more through repeated followups with wide aerials that may end with favorable tipper aerial setups.

Though catching an inward roll after Flame Choke with F-smash is probably also the most fun you can ever have with Ganondorf.

Oh and for entertaining reference, this.

 

[mimgrim]

@ mimgrim
i have some serious issue's with time comsuption when it comes to mii sizes if u like i or not they need to be standardized. we cant be having people go back into mii maker just to get there preffered size. also if u want mii's to get there extra moves im guessing u also want palutena's?

Palutena is a horrible counter-argument to not allowing Miis to have their moves as Miis don’t need the “Custom” toggle turned on to get their moves, even though I think it should be turned on but that is a different debate. Time constraint is a faulty argument because 1, a player can transfer their own Mii from their 3DS if they have it and it is possible to make a Mii in under a minute if you know what you are doing. Thos who have their own special little snowflakes with totally personalized face and crap are most likely to have them on the 3DS version already meaning a simple transfer is all that is needed and anyone else won’t care and will just leave Mii face and crap as default and just change size to be what they need it. Plus not everyone will be using Miis, in fact they have proved to be not so popular characters even with them not being limiting and god knows why because Brawler and Gunner are good when they aren’t limited. Time constraint issues are also bad arguments in general because if it is that important then why aren’t the rules making people unable to change their controls? Why not just play random with the legal stages so as to save time during the counter picking/banning process?

 

[Nobie]

I think it's a bit far-fetched to say that the customization of Mii Fighters is just a property of the character. You can't compare it to something like Luma or the KO Punch. While I don't think custom moves/stats are necessarily a bad thing for competition, they do give an advantage that no other character has in a way no other character can even get close to, especially in a Customs-off environment. If custom sizes are allowed, the ability to switch the size parameters of a Mii Fighter between sets can give a huge advantage because of how it affects spacing, punishes, recovery, etc. If the full range of moves are allowed, this is even more the case.

However, if Mii Fighters are allowed full access to both adjustable size and attacks in a Customs-off environment, I think there should be a rule that you have to basically use one of each Mii type throughout the tournament. If you have a 3323 Short Fat Mii Swordfighter (just an example, not saying this is good or anything), you cannot suddenly change to a 1122 Tall Thin Swordfighter. This lets Mii players use the sets they want, but doesn't give them that advantage of being able to configure their character slightly to throw off what the opponent has learned during the match.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Palutena is a horrible counter-argument to not allowing Miis to have their moves as Miis don’t need the “Custom” toggle turned on to get their moves, even though I think it should be turned on but that is a different debate. Time constraint is a faulty argument because 1, a player can transfer their own Mii from their 3DS if they have it and it is possible to make a Mii in under a minute if you know what you are doing. Thos who have their own special little snowflakes with totally personalized face and crap are most likely to have them on the 3DS version already meaning a simple transfer is all that is needed and anyone else won’t care and will just leave Mii face and crap as default and just change size to be what they need it. Plus not everyone will be using Miis, in fact they have proved to be not so popular characters even with them not being limiting and god knows why because Brawler and Gunner are good when they aren’t limited. Time constraint issues are also bad arguments in general because if it is that important then why aren’t the rules making people unable to change their controls? Why not just play random with the legal stages so as to save time during the counter picking/banning process?

Because those are fundemental aspects of competitive Smash.
As for Miis, I don't really think people want to deal with them, which results in less Mii mains, which results in TOs having even more reason not to deal with them and the cycle repeats. I'll admit, I've played some pretty damn good Mii mains, so it'd be great to have them. But people just don't want to deal with the hassle (even if it's only one minute) of them, which is a shame. It's no big deal to me, but I know some people have very strong opinions on this, so this Mii fighter thing shouldn't just go ignored.

 

[san.]

It's somewhat challenging to master different-sized Miis. Lag, juggling, strategies, and mobility are different, while the gameplan of the opponent isn't going to change much if he isn't switching characters. That's why it's more detrimental that average size is made mandatory at some tournaments, since it's close to learning 2 different characters. I can probably count on 1 hand the number of people who attempted to master using a variety of Mii fighter sizes with the intent on switching often vs. finding their ideal 1-2.

Just because it's a trait unique to Mii fighters doesn't mean that there are unfair advantages. I initially thought so too when the game came out, until I learned that they could be used under customs off settings. 2-3 less characters to deal with is advantageous to those who main the other 40 something.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I did. Around 10 seconds to close the game, 10 seconds to open Mii maker, 6 seconds to close mii maker, ~18 seconds to start up Smash 4. I suggest just testing it yourself, since I'm speaking from experience having to create many different Miis for testing when my Smash 4 was already playing.

Sniff my wiiu must be slow T.T

Palutena is a horrible counter-argument to not allowing Miis to have their moves as Miis don’t need the “Custom” toggle turned on to get their moves, even though I think it should be turned on but that is a different debate. Time constraint is a faulty argument because 1, a player can transfer their own Mii from their 3DS if they have it and it is possible to make a Mii in under a minute if you know what you are doing. Thos who have their own special little snowflakes with totally personalized face and crap are most likely to have them on the 3DS version already meaning a simple transfer is all that is needed and anyone else won’t care and will just leave Mii face and crap as default and just change size to be what they need it. Plus not everyone will be using Miis, in fact they have proved to be not so popular characters even with them not being limiting and god knows why because Brawler and Gunner are good when they aren’t limited. Time constraint issues are also bad arguments in general because if it is that important then why aren’t the rules making people unable to change their controls? Why not just play random with the legal stages so as to save time during the counter picking/banning process?

jeezus people sure are having a fly time telling my what im doing.... or at least telling me things that don't apply to me. i never said anything about palutena being a counter argument of any form. i just thought that perhaps you would have a similar opinion on her. (witch u dont oddly enough).

But ima tell, u this time constraints are a very really thing no matter how much u hyperbole it. we would not be having the very really discussion in other fourms about weither or not we should use 3 stocks or 2. if it was not such an issue i dont know why one would even care to argue 3 stock not being optimal. but thats obvioulsy not the case.

 

[mimgrim]

I think it's a bit far-fetched to say that the customization of Mii Fighters is just a property of the character. You can't compare it to something like Luma or the KO Punch. While I don't think custom moves/stats are necessarily a bad thing for competition, they do give an advantage that no other character has in a way no other character can even get close to, especially in a Customs-off environment. If custom sizes are allowed, the ability to switch the size parameters of a Mii Fighter between sets can give a huge advantage because of how it affects spacing, punishes, recovery, etc. If the full range of moves are allowed, this is even more the case.

However, if Mii Fighters are allowed full access to both adjustable size and attacks in a Customs-off environment, I think there should be a rule that you have to basically use one of each Mii type throughout the tournament. If you have a 3323 Short Fat Mii Swordfighter (just an example, not saying this is good or anything), you cannot suddenly change to a 1122 Tall Thin Swordfighter. This lets Mii players use the sets they want, but doesn't give them that advantage of being able to configure their character slightly to throw off what the opponent has learned during the match.

Nah. The change in height/weight after a match doesn't change much for the opponent because it is still the same basic playstyle you are playing against and you won't have to adjust to the new size that much. However the player swtiching has to adapt to a lot more because of different lag timing and stuff. This "advantage" is overblown a lot.

Because those are fundemental aspects of competitive Smash.

Only now they are. I could easily argue how at first they weren't and that customization can become a fundamental aspect just as much as those 2. Custom controls weren't a thing until Brawl and for the longest time in Melee all stages were legal and played on only random.

As for Miis, I don't really think people want to deal with them, which results in less Mii mains, which results in TOs having even more reason not to deal with them and the cycle repeats. I'll admit, I've played some pretty damn good Mii mains, so it'd be great to have them. But people just don't want to deal with the hassle (even if it's only one minute) of them, which is a shame. It's no big deal to me, but I know some people have very strong opinions on this, so this Mii fighter thing shouldn't just go ignored.

It's a big deal to me because I want to main short/skinny 3222 Gunner so badly, I have never been this passionate about a character I do main in other Smash games, and it sucks that I am currently unable to.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Only now they are. I could easily argue how at first they weren't and that customization can become a fundamental aspect just as much as those 2. Custom controls weren't a thing until Brawl and for the longest time in Melee all stages were legal and played on only random.

Do... do you know how competitive Smash works?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@Amazing Ampharos

If you couldn't see the situations in which that tipper tilt or aerial that you [got] hit with [by] Lucina which would've killed on Marth, then I'd say say you're missing out on perspective.

Also Lucario having a poor neutral is pretty critical. I put time into learning to play the character as well and I was disillusioned by how poorly he actually is dealing with the characters you're picking him for (something you'd expect from a character of top tier stature). Oh you want Lucario for Sheik? I'm pretty sure we aren't seeing him take out sheiks frequently like pre-patch/3DS, sheik's edge guarding game and significantly better neutral (i.e. every tool is twice the range and/or start up of Lucarios) developing doesn't bode well. Pikachu and Sonic, the characters which feared him in Brawl? I'm not seeing him handling either well when they have significantly better grab games and mobility and are almost universally buffed from the prior game, while the impact of Lucario's range nerfs from Brawl and post-wifi 3ds blues (remember little mac?) get more apparent and felt by the day. It's honestly better for the game Lucario isn't able to overwhelm most of the cast by sheer survivability + virtually unstoppable aura; because that's what it felt like with vectoring around and 3-10 frames of delay on wifi.
You know who else can take stocks in three reads? Heck, two? Ganondorf. No requirements necessary other than a good power shield in mid range. Or the roll hard read that we all love to see. Lucario has to take 100% while hopefully getting the opponent to 80% in trades or otherwise before he's applying that much pressure.

Eh...some of this is true but a lot of it is also how people think he is easy mode and realize, wow I actually gotta play him a bit and learn him before I can take off with him.

He seems simple but with the range nerfs and awkward hitnoxes/timing he isn't something people can pick up and know like Sheik who is more or less very similar to her Melee and Brawl incarnations.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Eh...some of this is true but a lot of it is also how people think he is easy mode and realize, wow I actually gotta play him a bit and learn him before I can take off with him.

He seems simple but with the range nerfs and awkward hitnoxes/timing he isn't something people can pick up and know like Sheik who is more or less very similar to her Melee and Brawl incarnations.

even shiek is a character that takes a fair amount of practice to be played they way she should. iv slapped aside many reckless shieks siply because they dont understand the spacing she needs.
diddy on the other hand....

 

[Chuva]

I don't understand why Mii customization is such a big issue for the western scene. The japanese scene is doing fine with them in and even has a good Brawler representation.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Diddy will likely get nerfed in the future assuming this rage holds up. The game isn't completely fleshed out yet, there's still a LOT to be explored. However, if nothing changes he will most likely get patched. I only hope that they do it in a subtle way, like with Rosalina and Luma i.e. toned down, but not removing her amazing potential and uniqueness.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't understand why Mii customization is such a big issue for the western scene. The japanese scene is doing fine with them in and even has a good Brawler representation.

Durr we murica no likey change

Diddy will likely get nerfed in the future assuming this rage holds up. The game isn't completely fleshed out yet, there's still a LOT to be explored. However, if nothing changes he will most likely get patched. I only hope that they do it in a subtle way, like with Rosalina and Luma i.e. toned down, but not removing her amazing potential and uniqueness.

i would personally like if he just became technical and overall hard 2 use. so its not brain dead play we have but something more like peach.

 

[Ticker]

Durr we murica no likey change

and the point of that statement was?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

and the point of that statement was?

personal entertainment.
what was ur goal? curiosity?

 

[Project Quarantine]

even shiek is a character that takes a fair amount of practice to be played they way she should. iv slapped aside many reckless shieks siply because they dont understand the spacing she needs.
diddy on the other hand....

I don't know if this is normal, but I have played upwards of 600 online matches on wiiu for glory, and I have seen about 6 Diddys, none of which knew what they were doing. So understanding Diddy may be easy, but online, players in general aren't able to grasp the character.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't know if this is normal, but I have played upwards of 600 online matches on wiiu for glory, and I have seen about 6 Diddys, none of which knew what they were doing. So understanding Diddy may be easy, but online, players in general aren't able to grasp the character.

I cant disagree with this. most diddys i ever faced on for glory did not even know up air was a move.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Likely because the majority of For Glory players don't really follow the tournament scene, or even know about it.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Likely because the majority of For Glory players don't really follow the tournament scene, or even know about it.

nor should they but i have been noticing progressive enhancement of player skills as iv been playing. people are definitly getting better at this game. but that could very well be the gamesmatch makingof some form as well but im not 2 sure.

 

[NairWizard]

I think they know about it, or at least they know about how good Diddy is. I use Diddy online sometimes (when I play; that isn't very often) because I don't like playing as Pikachu under lag. When I beat someone as Diddy, I almost always see a negative tag afterwards or a switch to Diddy from the other player. The incoming Diddy doesn't do any better, and actually does worse than whatever other character was played before that, so I can tell that these aren't tournament players.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Likely because the majority of For Glory players don't really follow the tournament scene, or even know about it.

I think a decent number of FG players do in fact know that Diddy is considered the best character in the game, as a good number of players switch to Diddy when they lose the same way people would use Mac in earlier days. The problem for them is that all of them just spam Monkey Flip and the like and doing predictable and punishable things against Ganon is the fastest way to lose in Smash 4. Also, none of them know how to recover properly.

 

[Pazx]

In the current meta-game for most places, no custom and Miis limited to 1111 and average height/weight, Miis are far from being slept on. Miis are currently pretty bad and only Brawler can claim to be almost decent. Their Specials mean that much to them and define them that much, much like Palutena (a character who even in a no customs environment I think is being underrated pretty hard because of the amount of good tools she has still but that is a discussion for another time), and without them they are on the bad side. Currently they are not being slept on.

The only restriction that should be placed on Miis is default height and weight and that's only for the sake of logistics at larger tournaments. I don't buy into the notion that no-customs will become the default. I would be happy for custom size miis to be legal though, but baby steps mim.

Just to clarify, I currently believe Ganondorf beats characters like Mario, Doc, Link, Toon Link, ROB, and WFT. There's a few other matchups he wins 55/45 that don't have projectiles but that's not what I'm addressing here.

The characters Ganondorf DOES lose to imo either are OP like Sonic/Diddy, or they can projectile camp and have very fast SH aerial pressure. Obviously, Sheik is one of them. Luigi and Pikachu are also hard for Ganondorf due to their projectiles and aerial pressure. Pit and Dark Pit are not quite so difficult for Ganondorf because their F-airs are slow enough to defend against relatively easily.

I believe vs Lucario for that matter is even. Ganondorf does have to play very respectfully against Aura Sphere, which makes his approaches a bigger gamble than in some matchups. However he does easily close out stocks, which is good against Lucario.

Toon Link can be perfectly described as "can projectile camp and has very fast SH aerial pressure. Ganon will lose to a good Tlink. At lower levels of play, maybe not, but at the highest level Ganon can't even get anything off of a powershield because Tlink is too quick.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think they know about it, or at least they know about how good Diddy is. I use Diddy online sometimes (when I play; that isn't very often) because I don't like playing as Pikachu under lag. When I beat someone as Diddy, I almost always see a negative tag afterwards or a switch to Diddy from the other player. The incoming Diddy doesn't do any better, and actually does worse than whatever other character was played before that, so I can tell that these aren't tournament players.

I think it's people looking for excuses as to why they lost. So instead of actually looking at themselves and reflect they blame character selection. Of course they tend to still lose when they switch characters. People believe that when people say x character is easy that anyone can pick him up and be good with him.....which obviously isn't the case.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The only restriction that should be placed on Miis is default height and weight and that's only for the sake of logistics at larger tournaments. I don't buy into the notion that no-customs will become the default. I would be happy for custom size miis to be legal though, but baby steps mim.



Toon Link can be perfectly described as "can projectile camp and has very fast SH aerial pressure. Ganon will lose to a good Tlink. At lower levels of play, maybe not, but at the highest level Ganon can't even get anything off of a powershield because Tlink is too quick.

ganon's punishes are not only capitalized off of shield.
simply having ganon in the middle of the stage aproaching can cause movements that ganon can punish.

I think it's people looking for excuses as to why they lost. So instead of actually looking at themselves and reflect they blame character selection. Of course they tend to still lose when they switch characters. People believe that when people say x character is easy that anyone can pick him up and be good with him.....which obviously isn't the case.

\i think this is more along the lines of people not understanding how to play at a competitive level. most people who play at a decent level of competance can generally pull some form reasonable play from any character but some characters are easyer to do so.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Toon Link can be perfectly described as "can projectile camp and has very fast SH aerial pressure. Ganon will lose to a good Tlink. At lower levels of play, maybe not, but at the highest level Ganon can't even get anything off of a powershield because Tlink is too quick.

Toon Link's F-air is somewhat slow, and also he's fairly floaty. His N-air and Z-air might be a bit faster in startup but he commits a lot on that. TL has to respect Ganon's N-air when fighting him in the air, and on the ground he has to respect D-tilt, and doesn't really have any moves that outrange those reliably. Combined with his relatively poor edgeguarding and the threat of Ganondorf's superior KO confirms from Flame Choke, I believe Ganondorf beats him.

 

[Pazx]

Toon Link's F-air is somewhat slow, and also he's fairly floaty. His N-air and Z-air might be a bit faster in startup but he commits a lot on that. TL has to respect Ganon's N-air when fighting him in the air, and on the ground he has to respect D-tilt, and doesn't really have any moves that outrange those reliably. Combined with his relatively poor edgeguarding and the threat of Ganondorf's superior KO confirms from Flame Choke, I believe Ganondorf beats him.

I'm not sure if you know this but Toon Link has 3 very good projectiles, two of which are capable of getting him out of flame choke easily. That combined with rar bair and zair mean he doesn't have to go in at all but when he does he does it in a safe way. Ganon can beat Tlink but that means the Tlink was caught doing the wrong thing.

 

[Locke 06]

Ganon can beat Tlink but that means the Tlink was caught doing the wrong thing.

Isn't that how Ganon beats everyone?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not sure if you know this but Toon Link has 3 very good projectiles, two of which are capable of getting him out of flame choke easily. That combined with rar bair and zair mean he doesn't have to go in at all but when he does he does it in a safe way. Ganon can beat Tlink but that means the Tlink was caught doing the wrong thing.

TL's arrows are mediocre projectiles. Bombs are very good but require setup time. Boomerang is situationally effective (and it rarely ever stops Flame Choke combos due to the armor frames on Flame Choke after grabbing). TL can't really keep Ganondorf out with projectiles alone. He has to fight Ganondorf directly at some point, and in midrange, Ganondorf has a very significant advantage over TL.

TL struggles to KO Ganondorf due to his weight, and a lack of safe setups or very threatening edgeguard tools to really capitalize on Ganondorf. Ganondorf however can easily KO TL with basically any move, which can be set up through Flame Choke, juggles, and of course edgeguards. Ganondorf wins this matchup because the risk/reward favors him more, and for TL to beat Ganondorf, he has to guess correctly more times to successfully KO Ganondorf.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Isn't that how Ganon beats everyone?

its actually the same way captain make the marth mu even.

 

[Pazzo.]

Ganondorf should be slept on, that's for sure...

My brother mains Dorf, and I find myself caught by those hard reads. It becomes less of 'how do I K.O him' and more of 'how do I not get predictable?'.

I'd say characters with strong punish games, like Dorf and other heavies, will advance as the meta develops. Most speedy characters will eventually hit walls.

 

[Yokoblue]

TL's arrows are mediocre projectiles. Bombs are very good but require setup time. Boomerang is situationally effective (and it rarely ever stops Flame Choke combos due to the armor frames on Flame Choke after grabbing). TL can't really keep Ganondorf out with projectiles alone. He has to fight Ganondorf directly at some point, and in midrange, Ganondorf has a very significant advantage over TL.

TL struggles to KO Ganondorf due to his weight, and a lack of safe setups or very threatening edgeguard tools to really capitalize on Ganondorf. Ganondorf however can easily KO TL with basically any move, which can be set up through Flame Choke, juggles, and of course edgeguards. Ganondorf wins this matchup because the risk/reward favors him more, and for TL to beat Ganondorf, he has to guess correctly more times to successfully KO Ganondorf.

I would say that the MU is around 50-50 but saying that TL doesnt have an edgeguard game against Ganon is false. Boomerang or bomb into forward air is an easy combo and is true if done fast enough (Bombs need to be jump canceled for that). Just spamming bomb and boomerang to ganon offstage is often enough to edgeguard him since his recovery sucks that much. Gimp, backair is also good to kill ganon.

 

[Yonder]

I'm legitimately unsure how Luigi approaches Villager as an especially notable point of concern. Luigi's recovery is also really gimpable even moreso than Mario's even if the distance can be good if you have superhuman mash abilities; that also concerns me.

You're right about Villager, it's far and away Luigi's worst match up [only matchup I'd consider a secondary, every other one is perfectly manageable]. Luigi can snuff slingshots with Nair...but that's about it. If someone finds a way for Luigi to get past gyroid spam, trees, pocket fireballs, and slingshots, let me know.

I'm not a fan of Mario's recovery though, sure it's harder to gimp, but the distance is quite abysmal. A lot of the time if Mario gets knocked away far enough, he's dead. He just has a slightly below average recovery overall, knock him back far enough and there's no need for gimps. Sure Luigi is gimpable, but if he gets knocked back far enough, he still has a chance. Albeit a small one, if Luigi is smart with tornado and missiles [Or get lucky with misfire] Luigi may come back. Looking at Boss' Luigi, he rarely ever loses a stock due to recovery issues, he makes it back on stage. So yeah, distance is no problem for Luigi. For Mario, it is, and that's why I give the point to Luigi for recovery.

[Also, dair gimps from Luigi offstage are quite underrated. Try setting one up with a D throw next to the edge of the stage. Mario does reign superior offstage gimping though, of course.]

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'd say characters with strong punish games, like Dorf and other heavies, will advance as the meta develops. Most speedy characters will eventually hit walls.

By and large the opposite is true for fighting games. I don't really see how Ganon will be able to keep up against Sheik, Pika, and Sonic once people get really good at using those characters.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I've been seeing a lot of tier list putting fox at Top tier or high tier and I'm confused as to why this is. Apart from his recovery being buffed, he got several nerfs from brawl, such as lasers and most of his ariels having landing lag, his Usmash having less range and most of his attacks dealing less damage in general. If i'm not mistaken, he also doesn't have great matchups vs the current top tier characters.

 

[Pazzo.]

By and large the opposite is true for fighting games. I don't really see how Ganon will be able to keep up against Sheik, Pika, and Sonic once people get really good at using those characters.

You assume, however, that Ganon players will not advance along with the Sheiks, Pikas, and Sonics.

It's just an opinion anyway. We really can't assume either side at this point.