Character Competitive Impressions

[Vengeance_NS]

Do you guys see wario getting better as time goes along and people figure out how to deal with matchups or is he gonna stand about the same. I'm kinda undecided. I feel he does good against most top tiers but I don't know if there is any good tech to discover with him. No know waft alone with rage makes warios comeback factor pretty strong and that's something to consider in a 2 stock meta. Is his moveset so limited that once people figure out how to fight him he will drop or is it a basic but solid moveset that will allow him to remain competitive with the top tiers?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Do you guys see wario getting better as time goes along and people figure out how to deal with matchups or is he gonna stand about the same. I'm kinda undecided. I feel he does good against most top tiers but I don't know if there is any good tech to discover with him. No know waft alone with rage makes warios comeback factor pretty strong and that's something to consider in a 2 stock meta. Is his moveset so limited that once people figure out how to fight him he will drop or is it a basic but solid moveset that will allow him to remain competitive with the top tiers?

"ifs" are very indefinite and can be more than complex when disscusing what players might do in the future.
we cant really say if hes gunna get better or not since there's vitually nobody playing him. but if theres nobody playing him will people know his mu well? these thing can't really be determined by us.

its like those half asses arguments where people are like "when people stop making mistakes so and so character will be dropping teirs" and in reality if we look at the fundamentals of fighting games. getting hit, should be considered a mistake.

so basically all im saying is that if a competent player/players picks him up and continue to do well, wario should hold up.
but when nobody plays him there's really no info to go off of other than theorycraft witch all in all is 90% of the time incorrect.

other than that? i think wario's a fine bloke.

Ahh yes, I definitely agree. I think even with staling on Fair, Peach just looks fantastic in this game. She just has the tools to space so well and having kill power seriously makes this character look good. She reminds me of Yoshi - in Brawl she would have been beastly if she just had kill power (Yoshi's weakness was the shield but same situation), and now she does and all her other tools still work very effectively. =)

Peach is the one character I prefer using the wiiu pro controller for since the control stick lay out complents her playstyle much more. On the pro controller i can do full float reatreating fairs with ease and overall make her float game even more potent. Trust me doing what i said on the gc controller is hard work and u go all crab hands on the controller....its not pretty. now if they made a wired pro controller >.>
*edit*
actually i kinda prefer the accesibility of my arials a whole lot more on the pro controller. less thumb displacement

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I play a pretty spacing heavy game myself. When I play against Marth, a big part of my mode of operation is dancing in and out of his tipper range being sure not to take risks in positions where he can punish with tippers. If I can play a better spacing game and make sure his hits don't tipper, I know I can extend stocks for a very long time against him. Of course Marth can fight back and will still land some of them and the kill power of tippers is a super valuable asset that makes him the better character (and I confirmed ingame him being safer on block... what a senseless design decision for Lucina to lose at that though honestly both are mega unsafe with bad spacing anyway). I'm just saying the fact that Lucina doesn't have to deal with me playing spacing based risk mitigation games and can just try to hit me is worth something (and the extra power of a Lucina hit versus a non-tipper Marth hit is a real thing). Is it worth as much as tippers? No. You probably need to tipper about 1/3 attacks to even it out by my totally non-scientific handwringing estimate (or even worse if you get "critical" tippers for early kills) which is definitely feasible enough for the type of character Marth is to make him the decidedly better choice. Is it worth enough that, for two characters who are identical in most ways, it means she's not much worse? I think it does. They have the same ranges, frame data, and physics which is the overwhelming majority of what makes the character tick; even a poor trade-off isn't going to shake the core quality much. This is in a lot of ways an academic argument since I agree with the statement "no one should play Lucina since Marth is just plain better", but I just don't believe that if someone irrationally decides to play the clearly inferior Lucina that they're actually disadvantaging themselves to a particularly large extent versus the general set of limitations the Marth moveset has in the first place.

To put it another way, can you imagine an opponent you can beat with Marth but can't beat with Lucina? Are there any players in your local scene like that for you? Of course picking Lucina will make things slightly harder and is a clear mistake, but it seems unlikely to me that you'll run into many players against whom your choice between the two will be the primary driving factor for whether you win or lose. I know as a player who only sees them as obstacles that I don't find one much harder to beat than the other. I like seeing Lucina since it's usually a tell for a less knowledgeable player, but I just can't imagine ever winning a game with a Lucina player and saying "I would have been toast if it were Marth".

For what it's worth, I'd post a nearly identical argument for Dark Pit except more boring since Dark Pit's inferiorities are boring whereas Lucina is inferior in fun and interesting ways.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I play a pretty spacing heavy game myself. When I play against Marth, a big part of my mode of operation is dancing in and out of his tipper range being sure not to take risks in positions where he can punish with tippers. If I can play a better spacing game and make sure his hits don't tipper, I know I can extend stocks for a very long time against him. Of course Marth can fight back and will still land some of them and the kill power of tippers is a super valuable asset that makes him the better character (and I confirmed ingame him being safer on block... what a senseless design decision for Lucina to lose at that though honestly both are mega unsafe with bad spacing anyway). I'm just saying the fact that Lucina doesn't have to deal with me playing spacing based risk mitigation games and can just try to hit me is worth something (and the extra power of a Lucina hit versus a non-tipper Marth hit is a real thing). Is it worth as much as tippers? No. You probably need to tipper about 1/3 attacks to even it out by my totally non-scientific handwringing estimate (or even worse if you get "critical" tippers for early kills) which is definitely feasible enough for the type of character Marth is to make him the decidedly better choice. Is it worth enough that, for two characters who are identical in most ways, it means she's not much worse? I think it does. They have the same ranges, frame data, and physics which is the overwhelming majority of what makes the character tick; even a poor trade-off isn't going to shake the core quality much. This is in a lot of ways an academic argument since I agree with the statement "no one should play Lucina since Marth is just plain better", but I just don't believe that if someone irrationally decides to play the clearly inferior Lucina that they're actually disadvantaging themselves to a particularly large extent versus the general set of limitations the Marth moveset has in the first place.

To put it another way, can you imagine an opponent you can beat with Marth but can't beat with Lucina? Are there any players in your local scene like that for you? Of course picking Lucina will make things slightly harder and is a clear mistake, but it seems unlikely to me that you'll run into many players against whom your choice between the two will be the primary driving factor for whether you win or lose. I know as a player who only sees them as obstacles that I don't find one much harder to beat than the other. I like seeing Lucina since it's usually a tell for a less knowledgeable player, but I just can't imagine ever winning a game with a Lucina player and saying "I would have been toast if it were Marth".

For what it's worth, I'd post a nearly identical argument for Dark Pit except more boring since Dark Pit's inferiorities are boring whereas Lucina is inferior in fun and interesting ways.

less safty on sheild just means manondorf is gunna give her the boot.
thats one of the few mu's i belive lucina will have more problems with than marth. (and in my opinion may not even win) expecially on a punish character like ganon. u really dont wana be unsafe against him. marth can at least be safe though.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Oh, so that's how it works. Yeah, I just checked and you're right, physical objects only for healing. I would imagine any projectile still adds Waft charge though, eh? (Wario mains, help)

Only things that heals him builds up waft, which is why you always see Wario trying to eat the bike parts after it breaks.

 

[Luco]

The other thing to consider though is that when people talk about how Marth is safe on shield, you have to remember he's only safe if he gets the tipper, and a Marth will not get tipper 100% of the time, so in most situations they'll both get punished by Ganon. This also assumes the Ganon will punish in 100% of those situations. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll make a difference, but not by enough to the point where it probably changes the MU in any real, significant way. :o

For what it's worth, I'd post a nearly identical argument for Dark Pit except more boring since Dark Pit's inferiorities are boring whereas Lucina is inferior in fun and interesting ways.

This is my favourite quote of the day.

 

[Nocally]

Pikachu is a good secondary because he is a pocket monster

Thank you, thank you, i'll be here all year (I'll just let myself out)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Re:
NAKAT was knocked into loser's bracket by Slayer's Peach this last weekend. I'm not sure what his character choices were, but I'd assume a mixture of Ness or Fox.

She's obviously strong, just a much higher skill floor than many.

It might not be justified due to lack of info and rep but I am still riding the Peach hype train. I think Peach is this game's sleeper character and I feel strongly that she is being dramatically underrated by most players at the moment.

When played well that character is (and is going to evolved to be even more) gay, man.

I just look at what she does and what she has, and I can't imagine a future where she isn't pissing everybody off.

 

[Pazx]

@ Luco , Marth is safer on shield than Lucina in all situations because of the hitstun modifier on the sourspot of his blade I believe. While this doesn't make him safe, it means Lucina is even less safe no matter what. She's bad.

@ Amazing Ampharos I'd actually be really interested in seeing your Pit vs Pittoo writeup, how are you going to write more than a paragraph about the ftilt, arrows and forward special? I know little about their different customs, to be fair.

 

[Luco]

@ Luco , Marth is safer on shield than Lucina in all situations because of the hitstun modifier on the sourspot of his blade I believe. While this doesn't make him safe, it means Lucina is even less safe no matter what. She's bad.

@ Amazing Ampharos I'd actually be really interested in seeing your Pit vs Pittoo writeup, how are you going to write more than a paragraph about the ftilt, arrows and forward special? I know little about their different customs, to be fair.

Ahh is that so? If that's the case then it will probably affect more than 50% of situations such as the one with ganny and could potentially make a difference.

My apologies for being mis-informed. =/

 

[TriTails]

EDIT: Deleted.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Peach needs to stay underrated. It makes her victory pose so much more rage inducing.
"Oh, did I win?"

 

[Pazx]

@ NachoOfCheese I think people are sleeping on Peach, along with Pac-Man, all 3 of the Miis, MK, WFT, ROB, Toon Link and Duck Hunt Duo.

I have seen some tier lists and I have seen Luigi being ranked lower than Mario.

Gonna need to question that.

And I again don't know what to say, because despite of reading 9 pages this time, I cannot even remember much of what I have read. I think it went from ZSS to..... Sheik being overrated? And.... that whole big and huge and tall wall of text of Pac-Man, and then Wario and Peach.... and here we are.

Darnit. I'm so forgetful that it's not even funny.

You are not obliged to reply to this thread, if you don't know what to say you don't have to say anything. This goes for more than just you and I'm not attacking you or anyone. If you truly feel the need to respond to this thread may I suggest re-reading key posts over the last few pages and formulating some proper points of discussion towards them. Alternatively, if you're catching up on a thread and you see something that you are in a position to respond to, click the reply button and reply to any and all posts you see fit to do so, but make sure you do it in a single post.

In regards to people rating Luigi lower than Mario:

1. The game is new. Tier lists are not accurate and most of us are not bothering to rank within tiers.
2. This is uncommon. Some well respected names such as Thinkaman, Shaya and Cobbs have all put them in the same tier or Luigi a tier above, and lesser known smashers seem to reflect that mindset. Only Ampharos has placed Mario significantly higher than Luigi, and I'd be interested to see his reasoning why, but your post does not convey that message kindly.
3. You should have used this post to reiterate why you believe Luigi is better than Mario.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

The gap between Marth and Lucina is real. It exists.

Not factoring in Marth for just a second, let's have a look at Lucina and how she is as a character. Omni describes what makes a low tier character in this video as follows:

1. They have bad matchups and/or
2. They have an awful kit compared to the rest of the cast.

In the case of the former, the Lucina matchup thread has certainly been giving off the impression that we lose to just about anyone not named Mario, Falco or Bowser (also none of these three are dominant threats in the current meta, which is important to consider).

Expanding on the second category, Omni mentions that low tier characters have less options and what options they do have, yield less reward. Lucina doesn't have many options. Her kit amounts to "swing sword, mix up with grabs". She doesn't really have any useful zone-breaking tools (especially in a customless environment), she has no projectiles, she has no specials that function as an alternate (if gimmicky) movement option, etc. and her neutral game suffers because of it. Zero Suit Samus and Sheik for instance, have all of the above. On to reward, this is where Lucina fails spectacularly. Her damage-per-hit is terrible outside of specials and smash attacks, failing to do 10 damage with anything other than Dair (not factoring in freshness bonus). Her combos (shameless plug) are short, deal much lower damage than equivalent combos by better characters (especially Dthrow -> Uair, which other characters pull off so much better) and some are (particularly landing Uair jank) difficult to set up. Her KO power is average at best... on her strongest moves.

Now we reintroduce Marth. His moveset is the same. He also doesn't have projectiles, his combos are also pretty bad and so on. However, he does not suffer from reward issues in the same way that Lucina does. Looking at the Smash 4 KO %s Chart, you'll see that Marth's Fsmash has the 3rd lowest in the game, being only beaten by Bowser and King Dedede's respective Fsmashes. Marth and Lucina's Fsmashes have 10 frames of startup, compared to Bowser's 22 and Dedede's 42. Marth is able to close out stocks with scary efficiency. That speed and power is a deadly combination. Lucina has that same speed, but not that power. Of the Fsmash KO %s listed (the table isn't quite complete), Lucina's forward smash kills earlier than that of 21 characters. Compare that to Marth who only is beaten by 2. His KO%? 70. Hers? 106. Ouch. This gets made even worse when one considers that Marth's attacks also deal more damage. So overall the average number of hit and exchanges he has to make to get a stock is much lower. So in summary, one could argue that Marth doesn't entirely show the signs of a low tier character, as his kit is not completely awful compared to the rest of the cast. Is Marth's KO power enough to make him good? That's for everyone else to decide, but as far as I'm concerned Lucina should not be able to be placed right underneath Marth. She is a fundamentally poor character, Marth at least has things going for him.

 

[TriTails]

You are not obliged to reply to this thread, if you don't know what to say you don't have to say anything. This goes for more than just you and I'm not attacking you or anyone. If you truly feel the need to respond to this thread may I suggest re-reading key posts over the last few pages and formulating some proper points of discussion towards them. Alternatively, if you're catching up on a thread and you see something that you are in a position to respond to, click the reply button and reply to any and all posts you see fit to do so, but make sure you do it in a single post.

In regards to people rating Luigi lower than Mario:

1. The game is new. Tier lists are not accurate and most of us are not bothering to rank within tiers.
2. This is uncommon. Some well respected names such as Thinkaman, Shaya and Cobbs have all put them in the same tier or Luigi a tier above, and lesser known smashers seem to reflect that mindset. Only Ampharos has placed Mario significantly higher than Luigi, and I'd be interested to see his reasoning why, but your post does not convey that message kindly.
3. You should have used this post to reiterate why you believe Luigi is better than Mario.

I get your point.

Do I need to delete my post? I felt guilty for posting such an unnecessary post (Bad habit). I apologize for that ?

And for Weegee vs Mario, I do believe he is better because his frame datas are overall better than Mario's. He is also a lot more skilled at comboing, being able to improvise his combos a lot better. He also has better killing options along with greater damage output. His recovery is also something to note.

He lacks great mobility unlike Mario, which holds his tier placement from being unreasonably higher than Mario. He is also less skilled at edgeguarding, since none of his moves are actually dedicated to guard the edge (Mario's FLUDD is literally only useful for edgeguarding IMO). Though, that's about it. To me, Luigi is better than Mario in a lot of ways, but not apart by a ridiculous gap. His mobility holds him back tbh.

 

[Antonykun]

Pikachu is a good secondary because he is a pocket monster

Thank you, thank you, i'll be here all year (I'll just let myself out)

And eventually Make for good secondaries too.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

@ NachoOfCheese I think people are sleeping on Peach, along with Pac-Man, all 3 of the Miis, MK, WFT, ROB, Toon Link and Duck Hunt Duo.

I'll sleep on Peach.

Don't people in general have a pretty high opinion of Peach, Pac and MK? I totally agree with DHD and ROB even if it's mostly for certain matchups. Wii Fit trainer just has those janky ass hitboxes. What are her strengths even? Does anyone even play her at tournament level?

Toon Link I'm not sure on. At the very least I think he might make good CP character but a lot of the higher tier characters make it harder for him to do what he wants to do. Speed is pretty popular at the moment. He does have aerial movement in his favor I'll give him that.

 

[warionumbah2]

People have high opinions on MK? Dunno what forum you're on but it sounds like a nice place.

 

[Ffamran]

I'll sleep on Peach.

Don't people in general have a pretty high opinion of Peach, Pac and MK? I totally agree with DHD and ROB even if it's mostly for certain matchups. Wii Fit trainer just has those janky *** hitboxes. What are her strengths even? Does anyone even play her at tournament level?

Toon Link I'm not sure on. At the very least I think he might make good CP character but a lot of the higher tier characters make it harder for him to do what he wants to do. Speed is pretty popular at the moment. He does have aerial movement in his favor I'll give him that.

I only know TKBreezy plays WFT and that's that.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'll sleep on Peach.

Don't people in general have a pretty high opinion of Peach, Pac and MK? I totally agree with DHD and ROB even if it's mostly for certain matchups. Wii Fit trainer just has those janky *** hitboxes. What are her strengths even? Does anyone even play her at tournament level?

Toon Link I'm not sure on. At the very least I think he might make good CP character but a lot of the higher tier characters make it harder for him to do what he wants to do. Speed is pretty popular at the moment. He does have aerial movement in his favor I'll give him that.

WFT gets the award of being the hardest character to kill off stage in my opinion.
but really the only worth while player giving wft any sorf of consistant representation is tk breezy and while hes not the best im actually seeing him make improvements to his playstyle and really capitalising on wft's strenghts.
WFT has some strangly fast kill moves like f tilt, a very hard to challenge bair. solid jab game. decent combo game. character exclusive approach option in pivot tilts. strong air mobility. well.... strong mobility specs in general. sun salutaion is a strong projectile, and her recovery is deceptivly good and hard to punish.

People have high opinions on MK? Dunno what forum you're on but it sounds like a nice place.

depends on what you consider high opinions of him. he strikes me as a strong mid tier candidate.
better than those dumb tier lists of old placing him in bottom 5

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I see him brought up as a character that's still good but overlooked due to his nerfs. Not saying top tier or anything but I don't see people call him trash or anything.

 

[Ffamran]

The only issues on WFT is how she is going to hit shorter characters, what she should be doing off of her Jab - people have tried her Side and Down Smash, but either the end lag on her Jab is atrocious or they should be going for faster moves -, positioning because her moves have different properties depending on where they hit, timing of Deep Breathing, and her Dair which isn't a good meteor because it's slow and has a small hitbox, but has horizontal kill potential if it lands on grounded opponents.

Here's the thing, WFT should have no trouble against larger opponents, but it's if she can get inside and land hits. Almost all the heavies have good range to compensate for their sluggishness.

 

[Pazx]

"WFT can't hit short characters"

pick kirby

get 1% lead

crouch for remainder of match

?????

profit

In all seriousness I'm convinced you guys are making a big deal out of a non-issue.

 

[warionumbah2]

depends on what you consider high opinions of him. he strikes me as a strong mid tier candidate.
better than those dumb tier lists of old placing him in bottom 5

That's what i mean. people place him in bottom tier or whatever when he's obviously mid tier at worse. Obvious for me that is, other than him being light or his range what makes him so bad is what crosses my mind.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

That's what i mean. people place him in bottom tier or whatever when he's obviously mid tier at worse. Obvious for me that is, other than him being light or his range what makes him so bad is what crosses my mind.

hes only gotten better since the patch and now has kill options for off stage.
he already has a strong combo game. they litterally game him what he needed to be functional. though i would greatly appreciate it if they fixed the hit box animation on f tilt since thats the only one feels strikingly off.

 

[Ffamran]

"WFT can't hit short characters"

pick kirby

get 1% lead

crouch for remainder of match

?????

profit

In all seriousness I'm convinced you guys are making a big deal out of a non-issue.

Falco can't reliably hit Jigglypuff for one if the stupid thing keeps floating around everywhere. The combination of poor mobility and fighting a character who can interrupt his Jab or intercept his hits makes Jigglypuff a pain to fight as Falco.

Falco won't be able to Down Smash or Dtilt unless Jigglypuff is on the ground for some reason. Side Smash is out of the question because of how slow it is, but a good read or a Rest punish would destroy Jigglypuff. Bair is essentially the if it lands, then yes, since I think it has shorter range than Jigglypuff's Bair. Fair isn't a good option unless Jigglypuff was caught off-guard since it's a 12 frame start move and Falco's horizontal air mobility won't be challenging Jigglypuff's. I think Jigglypuff can intercept Nair as well like Falco's Jab combo being interrupted by Rest, Bair?, or whatever Jigglypuff has.

What does this leave Falco with? Ftilt, Utilt, Uair, Reflector, Blaster, and maybe grabbing whenever the chance is there. Not a lot of options in my opinion. Up Smash may work as an anti-air, but there might be an issue where the first hit registers and the second whiffs. That's a 20ish frame move only doing 4%; it starts on frame 8 with the 4% and continues on frame 14 with a 12% not to mention end lag which I don't have data on or if I do, I'm just tired or I never accounted for end lag.

WFT might whiff hits on shorter enemies, but at least she's mobilie and has good projectiles to annoy say, Pikachu or Kirby. It's knowing what moves hit and what WFT should be doing. For one, if Kirby's in the air, then there is no reason to use a Down Smash, instead, a spaced Bair, catching Nair, Fair, or Uair would be fine or even her Ftilt and Utilt. So, it's more of an understanding thing like why I mentioned the whole what should WFT do after a Jab combo grounds an opponent.

 

[TriTails]

If the Jiggs' attack animations isn't decieving, her aerials seem to have short range. And it's ironic that Luigi actually has faster aerials (Except D-air) than Jiggs'. Though, they are still fast.

Jiggs' air mobility though. Lots of Jiggs matches I have play is 50% chasing her down on the ground while she floats in the air, trying to space her aerials. Can respect this, but it's just getting a little boring over time considering on how majority of online Jiggs' players just ran away in the air and throwing out aerials, but I guess this is what her playsytle is.

I don't know much about WFT's moveset, but given she has better mobility than, say, Luigi, then she should has little, or at least lesser problems on chasing Jiggs. I had some problems chasing her down as Luigi, but that's because his mobility is below-average.

 

[Nobie]

The gap between Marth and Lucina is real. It exists.

Not factoring in Marth for just a second, let's have a look at Lucina and how she is as a character. Omni describes what makes a low tier character in this video as follows:

1. They have bad matchups and/or
2. They have an awful kit compared to the rest of the cast.

In the case of the former, the Lucina matchup thread has certainly been giving off the impression that we lose to just about anyone not named Mario, Falco or Bowser (also none of these three are dominant threats in the current meta, which is important to consider).

Expanding on the second category, Omni mentions that low tier characters have less options and what options they do have, yield less reward. Lucina doesn't have many options. Her kit amounts to "swing sword, mix up with grabs". She doesn't really have any useful zone-breaking tools (especially in a customless environment), she has no projectiles, she has no specials that function as an alternate (if gimmicky) movement option, etc. and her neutral game suffers because of it. Zero Suit Samus and Sheik for instance, have all of the above. On to reward, this is where Lucina fails spectacularly. Her damage-per-hit is terrible outside of specials and smash attacks, failing to do 10 damage with anything other than Dair (not factoring in freshness bonus). Her combos (shameless plug) are short, deal much lower damage than equivalent combos by better characters (especially Dthrow -> Uair, which other characters pull off so much better) and some are (particularly landing Uair jank) difficult to set up. Her KO power is average at best... on her strongest moves.

Now we reintroduce Marth. His moveset is the same. He also doesn't have projectiles, his combos are also pretty bad and so on. However, he does not suffer from reward issues in the same way that Lucina does. Looking at the Smash 4 KO %s Chart, you'll see that Marth's Fsmash has the 3rd lowest in the game, being only beaten by Bowser and King Dedede's respective Fsmashes. Marth and Lucina's Fsmashes have 10 frames of startup, compared to Bowser's 22 and Dedede's 42. Marth is able to close out stocks with scary efficiency. That speed and power is a deadly combination. Lucina has that same speed, but not that power. Of the Fsmash KO %s listed (the table isn't quite complete), Lucina's forward smash kills earlier than that of 21 characters. Compare that to Marth who only is beaten by 2. His KO%? 70. Hers? 106. Ouch. This gets made even worse when one considers that Marth's attacks also deal more damage. So overall the average number of hit and exchanges he has to make to get a stock is much lower. So in summary, one could argue that Marth doesn't entirely show the signs of a low tier character, as his kit is not completely awful compared to the rest of the cast. Is Marth's KO power enough to make him good? That's for everyone else to decide, but as far as I'm concerned Lucina should not be able to be placed right underneath Marth. She is a fundamentally poor character, Marth at least has things going for him.

I'm not going to disagree with most of what you say, but I think you're short-changing Lucina's forward smash a bit. Yes, a 36% difference in kill power is huge for Marth, but 106% or even the low 100% range is actually really good in Smash 4. Most characters, including some of the top tier, wish they had a 10-frame, 106% KO move.

Also keep in mind that, on that chart, that is Marth's max damage for hits, which assume everything he lands will be a tipper. Obviously good players can space more reliably and land those tipped hits more consistently, but we've yet to see a Marth player in any game land tippers on all of their moves even 90% of the time. Marth will still average out better in the end I think it's safe to say, but it's not like Lucina is Roy where she gets punished for landing attacks at max distance.

 

[Ffamran]

If the Jiggs' attack animations isn't decieving, her aerials seem to have short range. And it's ironic that Luigi actually has faster aerials (Except D-air) than Jiggs'. Though, they are still fast.

Jiggs' air mobility though. Lots of Jiggs matches I have play is 50% chasing her down on the ground while she floats in the air, trying to space her aerials. Can respect this, but it's just getting a little boring over time considering on how majority of online Jiggs' players just ran away in the air and throwing out aerials, but I guess this is what her playsytle is.

I don't know much about WFT's moveset, but given she has better mobility than, say, Luigi, then she should has little, or at least lesser problems on chasing Jiggs. I had some problems chasing her down as Luigi, but that's because his mobility is below-average.

Isn't it a legitimate play style for Jigglypuff, though? Granted, higher level players will mix up ground combat as well, but I'd say Ganondorf wouldn't have a lot of trouble given his range which would mean Triple D, Charizard, and Bowser have little trouble since Triple D has range, Charizard is mobile on the ground, and Bowser is mobile on the ground, but this is all theory. I remember someone saying Ike would be good against Jigglypuff because of his range, coverage, and damage.

I think and even though it's early, but Jigglypuff might have a clear advantage against Falco to the point where he's shutdown, turtling, and scraping desperately for a good read.

 

[HeroMystic]

And for Weegee vs Mario, I do believe he is better because his frame datas are overall better than Mario's. He is also a lot more skilled at comboing, being able to improvise his combos a lot better. He also has better killing options along with greater damage output. His recovery is also something to note.

He lacks great mobility unlike Mario, which holds his tier placement from being unreasonably higher than Mario. He is also less skilled at edgeguarding, since none of his moves are actually dedicated to guard the edge (Mario's FLUDD is literally only useful for edgeguarding IMO). Though, that's about it. To me, Luigi is better than Mario in a lot of ways, but not apart by a ridiculous gap. His mobility holds him back tbh.

FLUDD has more uses than edgeguarding. It also:

-Aids Mario's recovery off-stage.
-Beats out camping characters.
-Hurts approach options.
-An effective mindgame tool.

FLUDD is underutilized by most players and needs to be explored more. It helps Mario in multiple ways. I can't stress enough how effective this is to stopping people who camp on the ledge and attempt to take advantage of Mario's low range.

 

[HeoandReo]

less safty on sheild just means manondorf is gunna give her the boot.
thats one of the few mu's i belive lucina will have more problems with than marth. (and in my opinion may not even win) expecially on a punish character like ganon. u really dont wana be unsafe against him. marth can at least be safe though.

Lucina vs. heavies - and Lucina vs. Ganondorf in particular - is a very funny matchup and most of the time I'd say it goes dead even, if not a little in Ganondorf's favour. Even though he's slow as sin and doesn't have the most reliable approaches, which Lucina likes, she still has to play absolutely perfectly against him and keep him out, because even Ganondorf doesn't have much trouble getting punishes in if she whiffs and he kills her a lot earlier than she can kill him. If she also tries to gimp, Ganondorf can challenge her to the point of suicide with Ganoncide, since most of Lucina's attacks put her right in range of it, so again if she misses, so long as Ganon has an extra stock, he's good to reset the situation and/or win the match outright, so I don't like edgeguarding Ganondorf offstage if I can help it.

I love fighting Ganondorfs and I've been using him a lot more these days, (Used him in Brawl but who knew Lucina and Ganondorf would be so translatable? It's like playing a much heavier Lucina who can actually kill things.) but it's also one of the heavies that I fear the most along with Ike because with both characters I have to respect absolutely everything they do, given my own limitations as Lucina.

I'm not going to disagree with most of what you say, but I think you're short-changing Lucina's forward smash a bit. Yes, a 36% difference in kill power is huge for Marth, but 106% or even the low 100% range is actually really good in Smash 4. Most characters, including some of the top tier, wish they had a 10-frame, 106% KO move.

I guess regarding her killpower, it is really good that she has a kill move that comes out fast, but in addition to being one of very few options, (she really can't mix things up again without taking huge risks - Shield Breaker is a heavy commitment and usmash is not so viable with high ceilings) another of my concerns has to do with her survivability. Given her recovery and weight, she's not that hard to send off to the point of no return, which is why I need to maintain control over the match as much as possible. Ideally, the reason why you want to kill early is to prevent the opponent from pressing Rage against you, and one of Lucina's main problems regarding her killpower is that instead of being something that can potentially be stopped early, most of the time it's a fact of life regarding her opponents. If you don't get the fsmash in, be prepared for a rough fight. Lots of characters are still threats even at lower percents. I personally start considering Lucario to be a major threat to me at 90, since he can still kill me pretty early with close range Force Palm, and is still just fast enough to get in if I whiff. Add onto that Aura and Rage and now you know why I really really really really hate the Lucario matchup for her, despite Lucario's disadvantages.

 

[mimgrim]

I think people are sleeping on all 3 of the Miis.

In the current meta-game for most places, no custom and Miis limited to 1111 and average height/weight, Miis are far from being slept on. Miis are currently pretty bad and only Brawler can claim to be almost decent. Their Specials mean that much to them and define them that much, much like Palutena (a character who even in a no customs environment I think is being underrated pretty hard because of the amount of good tools she has still but that is a discussion for another time), and without them they are on the bad side. Currently they are not being slept on.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nakat uses him almost as much as Ness these days I believe.



I play a lot of Doc in both Melee and Sm4sh but given that this is "Character Competitive Impressions" it is worth noting he is a primarily non-competitive character. I respect the Nado but it's a decent move on a bad character and it's still probably not as good a move as his upB. Mario is better without customs, the only area Doc improves with customs more than Mario is recovery (Gust cape is exclusive to Mario right?). Mario is a more competitive character, and Luigi is a character able to utilise the tornado far better than Doc.

Incredibly late response but I am well aware that this is a competitive response board. Primarily non-competitive? I don't think he's incredibly good or viable on his own, but he has his job and I believe everyone who plays Mario SHOULD also learn Doc on the side for MUs like Luigi where Doc is IMO much better vs. him than Mario is. Doc's edgeguarding is also superior to Mario's despite FLUDD but that's another very large story that I don't wanna go off on. Also Nado is his best move, Up+B is great but Nado is much betterrrr~

My point is that no, I wouldn't recommend Doc over Mario (who would? In all honesty) but I don't think he's like the other two clones in this game. His MUs work entirely different or at least different enough to matter in direct comparison to Mario and he is a fairly different character when you get to the scheme of things, really. He's different enough that it matters, to me. I main Doc because I believe he can definitely work with a proper set of secondaries (much like Mario because I don't think you can solo main Mario in this game either. I also have childhood ties to Dr. Mario and intense burning char loyalty. It happens.)

Also if you wanna talk customs I think Doc gets a nastier gimp game with them if you don't mind tossing away Doc Nado, if you take his Breezy Sheet (which is Gust Cape!) and combine it with his Down-B 2 you can breeze people away at VERY low angles and it's kind of scummy.

Fast pills make Doc an asshole because his punish game is stronger than Mario's and I am absolutely positive his Utilt is better at stringing (I'm testing it more as time goes on but the only thing the string trades with so far is 3 frame Nairs, gonna test this with Mario too). I don't mean to come off as abrasive but I feel like what I said was not "Mario is worse than Doc" but rather that "Doc has his niche and is, especially in comparison to the other two clones, different."

 

[Terotrous]

I really need to stop responding just once a day...

Yeah he doesn't get much off throws in general but you have to look at how strong the rest of his kit is. If he had guaranteed combos off dthrow the character would be too good. As it is now he's top 10 maybe better once more players and better players pick him up for tourneys.

Oh sure, I posted earlier in the thread that I think Yoshi with DThrow to Uair as a guaranteed combo would be #1 overall. His neutral game is definitely on par with or better than Diddy's, he just doesn't get quite the same reward when he lands a hit. Crank up the reward and you have a huge problem.

he get a laggy grab with no perks of other tether grabs idont see it as very good. if anything zzs is the best.

Yoshi's grab is a little faster than other tether grabs, and unlike some of the others its hitboxes are generally where they're appear to be. It's definitely better than ZSS's grab on both fronts.

IMO the only competition in the tether grab category is Link, though I still think Yoshi's is better overall.

People limiting Palutena shows the real reason why customs are banned. People don't want to deal with learning how to fight new moves. Easier to whine and hope things stay the same.

I'm pretty sure it's because Palutena can't use her customs unless custom characters are turned on, and if they are on, why can't the other characters use theirs too?

The Miis are the only characters who can use their customs when custom characters are turned off.

The only good argument against customs is time.

I think it has also yet to be proven that the customs-on metagame is as balanced as the customs-off metagame. It might be, but until we know for sure that's a potential argument.

Kind of reminds me of the SFxT gems thing.

Not a bad comparison. Smash really needed to take a cue from SFxT and let you input a button code to select your customs. For example, hold down A to pull up the customs menu, pick some "Quick Input" code, then press B, A, or X depending on what set you want, so for example 3121 would be XBAB. This would speed things up dramatically.

Get on that Nintendo.

My list is pretty different in a few ways. Further inspection has suggested I was probably underrating Pikachu but I still don't quite believe top tier (good, safe character but not exactly "explosive"; I value a few things differently than the average it seems).

I'm just going to agree with everyone else in that I seriously disagree about Lucario. Although he can have explosive power he was quite substantially nerfed by 1.04 (reduced survivability through loss of Vectoring means less kill power, and his UpB is now much less safe at landing onstage) and I don't think he's at the tippy top anymore. Maybe top 15, but if so probably on the fringes of it. I'm also pretty sceptical about Charizard, but I'll concede that he's unexplored.

I also think Falco gains more of a boost from Customs than you've indicated, Void Reflector is a great move, and he gains much better blaster options.

So I was thinking about the concept of "safety" when doing a move on shield and figured that, since there isn't any sort of universal 1f attack option it's not simply a matter of looking at frame advantage and declaring a move unsafe. Then there's spacing and range and all that jazz.

With that in mind, a question: Who has the fastest and slowest OOS options in the game?

I was also thinking that a list of each character's fastest punish options would be really helpful, as this lets you determine what attacks are safe against them. I assume Super Jump Punch is still the fastest OOS attack in the game. Dolphin Slash and Whirling Fortress are also very quick.

So lets say Lucario is at high aura and his opponent is at zero. What does it take for Lucario to take the next stock? It's about three reads as long as the last one is Force Palm, and they don't really have to be in a row.

Yes they do, if he makes a bad read and eats a Smash attack he's dead, and then he goes back to being one of the worst characters in the game. Aura is great and all, but it's not super reliable, and Lucario is horrible without it.

That's insane; no other character can do anything even vaguely like that.

Arguably most power characters can kill you in three or four correct reads, also potentially Diddy. Also, very few characters are as bad as Lucario is without Aura, so it's a double-edged sword. Even with Aura, his neutral is still fairly bad (in customs-off, anyway), he just has massive reward if he does land a hit.

R.O.B probably eats Lucario too. Just Up-throw if you dont close the stock out earlier.
Isnt force palm a projectile too? He should be able to reflect it just spinning in to Lucario.

If done at point blank, Force Palm is considered a grab. If the grab whiffs the pulse comes out, and I believe that is just a standard disjointed hitbox.

Perfect Pivots are the new Powershields of this game I see

Not really directed at you specifically, but I'm going to come out and say that I don't believe Perfect Pivots will change the metagame that much. Anyone considering it to be akin to wavedash is clearly wrong since you can't jump cancel into it, which was like 90% of what made Wavedashing so powerful. PP backwards into Forward Smash will have use in footsies for some characters, but most of the other uses I've seen for it are either gimmicky or nothing that Foxtrot can't do just as well.

 

[meleebrawler]

If done at point blank, Force Palm is considered a grab. If the grab whiffs the pulse comes out, and I believe that is just a standard disjointed hitbox.

Oh no, Force Palm's blast most definitely is a projectile. It was in Brawl too,
but there was pretty much no point reflecting there.

Though Arm Rotoring is a pretty big commitment so it's not like R.O.B can
just carelessly spin towards a highly damaged Lucario.

 

[Terotrous]

Oh no, Force Palm's blast most definitely is a projectile. It was in Brawl too,

Interesting. Can you pocket it? That'd be pretty hilarious.

 

[David Viran]

I really need to stop responding just once a day...


Oh sure, I posted earlier in the thread that I think Yoshi with DThrow to Uair as a guaranteed combo would be #1 overall. His neutral game is definitely on par with or better than Diddy's, he just doesn't get quite the same reward when he lands a hit. Crank up the reward and you have a huge problem.



Yoshi's grab is a little faster than other tether grabs, and unlike some of the others its hitboxes are generally where they're appear to be. It's definitely better than ZSS's grab on both fronts.

IMO the only competition in the tether grab category is Link, though I still think Yoshi's is better overall.

yoshis grab comes out a bit faster but there grabs are still kinda bad oos options anyway. Zss's grab has more active frames and they might have the same amount of endlag although zss might have less. Zss's grab comes out faster at point blank. Does yoshis do that? Zss's grab I'm pretty sure has more range and her dash grab covers a lot more ground.

 

[Antonykun]

Interesting. Can you pocket it? That'd be pretty hilarious.

You cannot

 

[Terotrous]

yoshis grab comes out a bit faster but there grabs are still kinda bad oos options anyway. Zss's grab has more active frames and they might have the same amount of endlag although zss might have less. Zss's grab comes out faster at point blank. Does yoshis do that? Zss's grab I'm pretty sure has more range and her dash grab covers a lot more ground.

Yoshi definitely has less endlag than ZSS, though she likely has more range and possibly more active frames. Yoshi's dash grab is also very good, it comes out surprisingly quick and doesn't have abysmal endlag.

You cannot

Lame.

 

[David Viran]

Yoshi definitely has less endlag than ZSS, though her total range is probably longer. Yoshi's dash grab is also very good.



Lame.

You would be surprised. ZSS doesn't have her grab from brawl it has a lot less endlag. Zss's dash grab is one of the best dash grabs in the game aside from the obvious not as safe as normal grab it has the most range then anybody.