Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

You would be surprised. ZSS doesn't have her grab from brawl it has a lot less endlag. Zss's dash grab is one of the best dash grabs in the game aside from the obvious not as safe as normal grab it has the most range then anybody.

Yeah, it's true that most tether grabs have gotten better since Brawl (Link's is way better too), but I'm pretty sure Yoshi's grab is still a bit faster.

 

[David Viran]

Yeah, it's true that most tether grabs have gotten better since Brawl (Link's is way better too), but I'm pretty sure Yoshi's grab is still a bit faster.

I just feel it's easier to get a grab with zss than with Yoshi because it cuts down more options.

 

[Terotrous]

I just feel it's easier to get a grab with zss than with Yoshi because it cuts down more options.

Well, there's more to getting a grab than just your raw grabboxes. Mobility definitely matters too (and ZSS is a little quicker than Yoshi), as does the way you condition your opponent to shield in the neutral game. The reward you can get from a grab matters too, I find it easy to get grabs with Yoshi, but smart opponents know that it's better to take a grab from Yoshi than a running upsmash, as the reward from the grab is much less. Against ZSS, I'd be less inclined to shield, because her running UpSmash is not as dangerous. Worst case I eat a dash attack and that's not likely to kill, but the Dthrow combo might.


All of that said, I'm still pretty sure Yoshi's grab is one of the best tether grabs in terms of raw frame data.

 

[David Viran]

Well, there's more to getting a grab than just your raw grabboxes. Mobility definitely matters too (and ZSS is a little quicker than Yoshi), as does the way you condition your opponent to shield in the neutral game. The reward you can get from a grab matters too, I find it easy to get grabs with Yoshi, but smart opponents know that it's better to take a grab from Yoshi than a running upsmash, as the reward from the grab is much less. Against ZSS, I'd be less inclined to shield, because her running UpSmash is not as dangerous. Worst case I eat a dash attack and that's not likely to kill, but the Dthrow combo might.


All of that said, I'm still pretty sure Yoshi's grab is one of the best tether grabs in terms of raw frame data.

You might want to take that grab because you might catch a running up b. Yoshi's grab is good and since there is no frame data on endlag yet it is hard to tell which have less but having more active frames makes it a lot harder to time a spot dodge and it covers back rolls.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Whenever a Yoshi grabs me in this game, I feel like I'm getting grabbed by Melee!Marth all over again. The only difference is that Yoshi can't convert very well off of a grab.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

You might want to take that grab because you might catch a running up b. Yoshi's grab is good and since there is no frame data on endlag yet it is hard to tell which have less but having more active frames makes it a lot harder to time a spot dodge and it covers back rolls.

I'll take my chances with the UpB. She has to be really close for that to connect and a counter poke stands a decent chance of beating that out. Also, can't you combo DThrow -> Uair -> UpB at some percents anyway?

And yeah, active frames do make it harder to spot dodge. I believe you cannot spot dodge ZSS's grab at max range, it'll still be active when you finish. That does mean you have a lot of punish time if it whiffs though.

Whenever a Yoshi grabs me in this game, I feel like I'm getting grabbed by Melee!Marth all over again. The only difference is that Yoshi can't convert very well off of a grab.

Smooth Criminal

Yoshi honestly can't really convert at all. DThrow Uair may be guaranteed at 0% vs Ganondorf or something but that's about it. Generally I just use FThrow or BThrow for stage position.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I agree, Tero. It's just range-wise, Yoshi always catches me off-guard. I'm like, wat do, how can you grab from me all the way over there.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Spinosaurus]

You cannot

You sure? Mario can cape it and Wario can eat it.

 

[David Viran]

I'll take my chances with the UpB. She has to be really close for that to connect and a counter poke stands a decent chance of beating that out. Also, can't you combo DThrow -> Uair -> UpB at some percents anyway?

And yeah, active frames do make it harder to spot dodge. I believe you cannot spot dodge ZSS's grab at max range, it'll still be active when you finish. That does mean you have a lot of punish time if it whiffs though.



Yoshi honestly can't really convert at all. DThrow Uair may be guaranteed at 0% vs Ganondorf or something but that's about it. Generally I just use FThrow or BThrow for stage position.

Up b actually has some horizontal range on the first hit and it comes out on frame 4. You should probably just sheild anyway and try to react to a grab, unless you are at the percent to get uair up b, which you could just do with Yoshi.

And yeah it's more frames to punish if you time a spot dodge that way but that applies to Yoshi as well.

 

[Kofu]

You sure? Mario can cape it and Wario can eat it.

There are certain projectiles that can't be reflected in the normal way. Force Palm Flare is probably one of them. Some of them just have a static stage position (PK Flash, Villager's USmash) and some are only reflectable by specific means (Luma Shot). Not sure where the Force Palm Flare fits into that, but Villager being unable to Pocket it doesn't surprise me. He can't typically Pocket projectiles that are more or less connected to the character using them, like Olimar's Pikmin and a Lloid Rocket that another Villager is riding. Although on that second one, the Rocket can be reflected and if it is, Villager had better bail if he doesn't want to be in a world of hurt.

 

[thehard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvU5RQ-nJog&feature=youtu.be&t=5m3s

So not only are these matches fun as all hell to watch, but they also highlight the pros and cons of light and heavy characters. The end result is amusing (and amazing).

 

[NairWizard]

I think it has also yet to be proven that the customs-on metagame is as balanced as the customs-off metagame.

I'm sorry, but you have to be absolutely fruity to believe that allowing customization will offer less balance.

Less fun? Sure, maybe. Some custom moves are silly. Less competitive? Sure, if you believe that having too many matchups to learn is bad for competitors.

Less balanced? There's no way.

 

[Asdioh]

Customs are "innocent until proven guilty" as far as I'm concerned. Nobody has shown yet that there are any customs nearly as dominant as the entire character Diddy Kong is, for example.

Game will be more balanced and probably more fun (at least more character diversity) with them on, etc etc, let's hurry up and put them in our tournaments guys thanks!

Actually the local TO in RI said he'll start doing customs after apex so that's cool.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm sorry, but you have to be absolutely fruity to believe that allowing customization will offer less balance.

Of course it could offer less balance. It offers more options to each character, but there is no guarantee that those new options will be equally strong for each. If some characters benefit much more than others, the balance could get worse.

For another example, consider Pokemon, which gets less and less balanced every time it introduces new moves and characters. This is generally because the rich tend to get richer while the weaker Pokemon stay the same while facing new threats that they're not able to deal with.


Like I said in another topic, right now we have a decent idea of how strong each character is with their customs off. There's a bit of debate over the exact ordering but for the most part we're approaching a general ordering of the cast from strongest to weakest. In order for customs to improve the balance, the amount that each character improves with customs on must generally be inversely correlated with how strong they are with customs off (ie, the bad characters benefit a lot, and the good characters barely benefit at all).

At a glance, it looks to me like the degree to which characters improve with customs is kind of random. Some bad characters improve a lot, like Falco, but some good characters also have big improvements, like Lucario. Meanwhile, poor Zelda seems to barely improve at all, and of course Swordfighter is dead bottom even with his customs.

Customs are "innocent until proven guilty" as far as I'm concerned. Nobody has shown yet that there are any customs nearly as dominant as the entire character Diddy Kong is, for example.

I'm not against trying them, but we can't conclude that the balance will be better until we try. My gut feeling is that the balance will likely be worse, simply because the balance is fairly good with customs off, it would be hard to introduce a ton of new variables and yet maintain that high level of balance.

 

[Conda]

Customs on - yes please. But then I have to go unlock the customs

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Falco can't reliably hit Jigglypuff for one if the stupid thing keeps floating around everywhere. The combination of poor mobility and fighting a character who can interrupt his Jab or intercept his hits makes Jigglypuff a pain to fight as Falco.

Falco won't be able to Down Smash or Dtilt unless Jigglypuff is on the ground for some reason. Side Smash is out of the question because of how slow it is, but a good read or a Rest punish would destroy Jigglypuff. Bair is essentially the if it lands, then yes, since I think it has shorter range than Jigglypuff's Bair. Fair isn't a good option unless Jigglypuff was caught off-guard since it's a 12 frame start move and Falco's horizontal air mobility won't be challenging Jigglypuff's. I think Jigglypuff can intercept Nair as well like Falco's Jab combo being interrupted by Rest, Bair?, or whatever Jigglypuff has.

What does this leave Falco with? Ftilt, Utilt, Uair, Reflector, Blaster, and maybe grabbing whenever the chance is there. Not a lot of options in my opinion. Up Smash may work as an anti-air, but there might be an issue where the first hit registers and the second whiffs. That's a 20ish frame move only doing 4%; it starts on frame 8 with the 4% and continues on frame 14 with a 12% not to mention end lag which I don't have data on or if I do, I'm just tired or I never accounted for end lag.

WFT might whiff hits on shorter enemies, but at least she's mobilie and has good projectiles to annoy say, Pikachu or Kirby. It's knowing what moves hit and what WFT should be doing. For one, if Kirby's in the air, then there is no reason to use a Down Smash, instead, a spaced Bair, catching Nair, Fair, or Uair would be fine or even her Ftilt and Utilt. So, it's more of an understanding thing like why I mentioned the whole what should WFT do after a Jab combo grounds an opponent.

f smash is a big deal in the falco/jiggs mu its very similar to the marth/captain falcon mu. where technically jiggs has all the tools to keep falco out. but one screw up can turn the fight right back in falcos favor expecially if he gets a grab since FINALLY people are using up throw for falcos vertical combos rather than down throw/ f throw.

 

[warionumbah2]

Kirby with 3331 set is a thing of beauty. Fingers crossed customs become a thing after Apex.

Would recommend unlocking customs on the 3ds version.

 

[Nu~]

Meteor trampoline trap setups pls. It is all I need

 

[A2ZOMG]

Customs on - yes please. But then I have to go unlock the customs

It took me about a month to unlock them all. Then again, given I don't have an immediate nearby competitive scene, I sorta had nothing else to do (aside from For Glory). I will forever be upset at Sheik being the worst character in All Star Mode.

Plus, Mewtwo being released will make me angry, because custom grinding.

While there is no reason to believe Customs won't make the game more balanced, I do have suspicions that we won't actually like the custom metagame that much when it actually happens. There's a lot of customs that buff recoveries to fairly insane levels which has the consequence of potentially making games last longer (even in spite of correlated edgeguarding buffs). Like, in general, most of the custom moves that I suspect are preferable are ones that competitively will often add safety to a character kit, and then reward if safety is not an issue. And then there's silly stuff like Toon Link stalling under stages with custom Bombs/Up-B which we probably need a clause on.

Whatever, I'm just being somewhat pessimistic. By all means, I want to see custom moves allowed because it does increase overall character viability, which can potentially make a more interesting metagame.

Having a projectile =/= you beat Ganon.

Ganon can **** up Lucario hard and I would honestly be more afraid of him than Lil'Mac.

Just to clarify, I currently believe Ganondorf beats characters like Mario, Doc, Link, Toon Link, ROB, and WFT. There's a few other matchups he wins 55/45 that don't have projectiles but that's not what I'm addressing here.

The characters Ganondorf DOES lose to imo either are OP like Sonic/Diddy, or they can projectile camp and have very fast SH aerial pressure. Obviously, Sheik is one of them. Luigi and Pikachu are also hard for Ganondorf due to their projectiles and aerial pressure. Pit and Dark Pit are not quite so difficult for Ganondorf because their F-airs are slow enough to defend against relatively easily.

I believe vs Lucario for that matter is even. Ganondorf does have to play very respectfully against Aura Sphere, which makes his approaches a bigger gamble than in some matchups. However he does easily close out stocks, which is good against Lucario.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm really at the point where I just want Miis to be allowed their full customization. Limiting them the way tournaments have been is so ****ing stupid and arbitrary because it defeats the purpose of the character and Miis don't require the "Custom" toggle to be turned on to be customized which makes the rules limiting them even more arbitrary as there is no in-game toggle to turn off their customization.

For real though. I'm not really taking this game all that seriously right now because of the lack of customs. It's just really frustrating that I am unable to invest practical time currently into the characters I want currently because the rule-set says I can't use that character the way I want to.

/rant

 

[NairWizard]

Of course it could offer less balance. It offers more options to each character, but there is no guarantee that those new options will be equally strong for each. If some characters benefit much more than others, the balance could get worse.

For another example, consider Pokemon, which gets less and less balanced every time it introduces new moves and characters. This is generally because the rich tend to get richer while the weaker Pokemon stay the same while facing new threats that they're not able to deal with.

• Giving more special move options to characters who already have good specials is not as good as giving more special move options to characters who have mediocre specials. This is because characters with worse specials are more likely to take their alternative options than are characters with good specials.
  
  Imagine playing DnD and being given a character with all randomly generated 12s in stats vs. your friend who is given a character with randomly generated 16s in stats. Given the option to regenerate both of your stats, which of you is more likely to take it? Of course, you are, because your stats stand to improve more. But that's talking about a random scenario--this is a controlled environment, designed by what is ostensibly a clever development team. It would require active, intentional incompetence on their part to reduce game balance by implementing a feature which, if it were random, would still improve balance, even if nominally.
• Good characters tend to have good specials, while bad characters tend to have bad specials. Of course, this is not a hard-and-fast rule (Zelda's specials are already decent, for example; it's the rest of her kit that is bad), but it is generally true. Bad moves make you worse. Good moves make you better. Thus, out of the two groups, Bad Characters and Good Characters, which group is more likely to have bad specials? How many Top Tiers have you seen over the years across multiple games with bad or even average specials down the board?

You don't need to play in a customs tournament to realize that customs improve game balance. It's about as clear as the fact that ledge invincibility benefits Brawl Meta Knight (you don't need to plank with him to realize how good it is for him over others; seeing it once or hearing about the idea is enough).

 

[Asdioh]

Of course it could offer less balance. It offers more options to each character, but there is no guarantee that those new options will be equally strong for each. If some characters benefit much more than others, the balance could get worse.

For another example, consider Pokemon, which gets less and less balanced every time it introduces new moves and characters. This is generally because the rich tend to get richer while the weaker Pokemon stay the same while facing new threats that they're not able to deal with.

I don't really think the Pokemon comparison works. In a turn-based strategy game (or however you define it) if your pokemon flat out was given less overall stats, useless abilities, and a weaker movepool, you'll lose almost every time because of simple numbers. One of my favorites is , and it's kind of pointless to use it. It can fill multiple roles, but there are others that can specialize in those roles with significantly better stats or options suited to that role.
In a fighting game (whose baseline is FAR more balanced than Pokemon ever has been) having some tweaks to moves won't make as drastic of an effect.

I'm not against trying them, but we can't conclude that the balance will be better until we try. My gut feeling is that the balance will likely be worse, simply because the balance is fairly good with customs off, it would be hard to introduce a ton of new variables and yet maintain that high level of balance.

That's fine, but it's just a gut feeling until we try it. I think it'll be fine, the bad have nowhere to go but up, and the good will have to find ways to deal with those characters getting better, whether through use of their own customs, or just through smart usage of their already-good moveset/characteristics.

To my knowledge, Diddy Kong and Sheik (the mostly undisputed top 2 at the moment) have mediocre/poor customs? They seem to either prefer their defaults, or only get marginally better with customs, possibly all personal preference. Other characters however get undeniably stronger, so I think it'll be interesting. If bad characters are still bad (poor Zelda) then it's just an unfortunate design flaw and we can't do much to help it either way.

And yes I just want to use Kirby's Upper Cutter After testing I've found that it comes out on roughly frame 6 (which reminds me, how were the specials in this pastebin tested? Because it's still incomplete). It's like a dolphin slash/zero suit upB option out of shield, but it's actually even more dangerous when comboed into or landed from a read near the top of the stage, it's so fast.

Customs on - yes please. But then I have to go unlock the customs

I finally unlocked them all on my WiiU about a week ago. I've been working on it in bursts since the release. It took like 36 hours? Either way it was a ton of unfun grinding, Nintendo please nerf

 

[Terotrous]

Giving more special move options to characters who already have good specials is not as good as giving more special move options to characters who have mediocre specials. This is because characters with worse specials are more likely to take their alternative options than are characters with good specials.

Many good characters have a couple specials that are bad, and would benefit as much as any character from a significantly better option for those slots. Imagine how scary Diddy would be if one of his customs was Sheik's Up B, for example.


Similarly, there are many bad special moves where none of a character's customs are any better. Jigglypuff UpB, for example, is a functionally worthless move, but somehow the customs are even worse. You can't assume that just because a character has a bad special move that one of their options will be better, sometimes they aren't.

You don't need to play in a customs tournament to realize that customs improve game balance.

I can't really take that opinion seriously. You can never conclude anything about balance without testing it in high level competition, particularly not a setting that changes all 51 characters.

I don't really think the Pokemon comparison works. In a turn-based strategy game (or however you define it) if your pokemon flat out was given less overall stats, useless abilities, and a weaker movepool, you'll lose almost every time because of simple numbers. One of my favorites is , and it's kind of pointless to use it. It can fill multiple roles, but there are others that can specialize in those roles with significantly better stats or options suited to that role.
In a fighting game (whose baseline is FAR more balanced than Pokemon ever has been) having some tweaks to moves won't make as drastic of an effect.

I don't think this really changes the analogy. Yes, in Pokemon skill plays a bit less of a role (even then, a good player can easily beat a poor player using a team of lower tier pokemon), but the fundamental issue still comes down to which characters have the best tools, and just adding in more tools doesn't necessarily mean the distribution is fair.

 

[Conda]

It took me about a month to unlock them all. Then again, given I don't have an immediate nearby competitive scene, I sorta had nothing else to do (aside from For Glory). I will forever be upset at Sheik being the worst character in All Star Mode.

Plus, Mewtwo being released will make me angry, because custom grinding.

While there is no reason to believe Customs won't make the game more balanced, I do have suspicions that we won't actually like the custom metagame that much when it actually happens. There's a lot of customs that buff recoveries to fairly insane levels which has the consequence of potentially making games last longer (even in spite of correlated edgeguarding buffs). Like, in general, most of the custom moves that I suspect are preferable are ones that competitively will often add safety to a character kit, and then reward if safety is not an issue. And then there's silly stuff like Toon Link stalling under stages with custom Bombs/Up-B which we probably need a clause on.

Whatever, I'm just being somewhat pessimistic. By all means, I want to see custom moves allowed because it does increase overall character viability, which can potentially make a more interesting metagame.

Just to clarify, I currently believe Ganondorf beats characters like Mario, Doc, Link, Toon Link, ROB, and WFT. There's a few other matchups he wins 55/45 that don't have projectiles but that's not what I'm addressing here.

The characters Ganondorf DOES lose to imo either are OP like Sonic/Diddy, or they can projectile camp and have very fast SH aerial pressure. Obviously, Sheik is one of them. Luigi and Pikachu are also hard for Ganondorf due to their projectiles and aerial pressure. Pit and Dark Pit are not quite so difficult for Ganondorf because their F-airs are slow enough to defend against relatively easily.

I believe vs Lucario for that matter is even. Ganondorf does have to play very respectfully against Aura Sphere, which makes his approaches a bigger gamble than in some matchups. However he does easily close out stocks, which is good against Lucario.

The majority of recovery-increasing custom Up Bs make them vulnerable and not provide safety on the way up, due to no hitboxes. This actually makes these moves balanced in safety - they're only more safe for recovery if you are edgeguarding and safe to return, and are less safe when trying to recover vs edgeguarding.

This doesn't extend games as much as it gives some characters recoveries that are intercepatble and can be counter-played against, such as Olimar/DuckHunt/Pit/ Greninja/Robin etc recoveries. These make edgeguarding them easier, as their returns to the stage aren't protected by hitboxes. It's risky to choose these customs, which makes things balanced. It's not always 'better' to have a recovery that goes further but is easier to edgeguard against. Even Duck Hunt would arguably prefer the Up B that sacrifices distance for a hitbox.

 

[FimPhym]

I can't really take that opinion seriously. You can never conclude anything about balance without testing it in high level competition, particularly not a setting that changes all 51 characters.

I am 100% sure that metal, flower head, giant, low gravity smash is a mess. It changes all characters and I didnt bother to test it.

We can definitely work some things out before testing, foresight is a thing.

 

[Terotrous]

I am 100% sure that metal, flower head, giant, low gravity smash is a mess. It changes all characters and I didnt bother to test it.

We can definitely work some things out before testing, foresight is a thing.

Maybe, but poor balance is much, much easier to achieve than good balance. One can easily come up with all kinds of suggestions on how to make a character broken, but how to make a character balanced? That's much more difficult and generally requires testing to get it right.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The majority of recovery-increasing custom Up Bs make them vulnerable and not provide safety on the way up, due to no hitboxes. This actually makes these moves balanced in safety - they're only more safe for recovery if you are edgeguarding and safe to return, and are less safe when trying to recover vs edgeguarding.

This doesn't extend games as much as it gives some characters recoveries that are intercepatble and can be counter-played against, such as Olimar/DuckHunt/Pit/ Greninja/Robin etc recoveries. These make edgeguarding them easier, as their returns to the stage aren't protected by hitboxes. It's risky to choose these customs, which makes things balanced. It's not always 'better' to have a recovery that goes further but is easier to edgeguard against. Even Duck Hunt would arguably prefer the Up B that sacrifices distance for a hitbox.

From experience playing with some friends, I actually find that most of the time, not having a hitbox on a long distance Up-B is rarely an issue for getting around edgeguarding, because your opponent has to make a relatively hard read or have really really good lingering hitboxes to cover your options. Yes, your opponent does risk less trying to edgeguard you, but at the same time it's actually very difficult for them to get a strong capitalization on most of the recovery Up-Bs if used correctly as long as you tech incoming stage spikes, so overall, you are much more likely to survive longer with the recovery Up-B. Usually though, the thing that bothers me most about recovery only Up-Bs is losing an on-stage option, as most of the hitbox Up-Bs actually tend to be very useful in some way on stage.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There's a lot of pretty well established theory about why customs improve balance... and also the actual experiences of those of us who do play with them. It's not like it's a thing no one has ever done; some of us are very familiar with the system. At this point the evidence strongly suggests customs improve balance and the burden of proof would be on the other side; I haven't seen any solid piece of evidence that customs are any kind of a balance problem as opposed to a balance boon.

Pit vs Dark Pit is too boring, sorry. His hilarious "Where's your goddess now?" win quote is near the top of his list of positives, but he's at least so close to identical that his downsides don't matter much...

My issue with Luigi is that, while his frame data and speed to power ratio are the best in the game which is no small thing, his mobility is fairly poor overall especially in terms of air speed and that makes his neutral pretty hard in some match-ups. He has super stubby limbs and even less average range than Mario to go with this. I'm legitimately unsure how Luigi approaches Villager as an especially notable point of concern. Luigi's recovery is also really gimpable even moreso than Mario's even if the distance can be good if you have superhuman mash abilities; that also concerns me. His traction also makes him miss out on some punishes and makes some neutral stuff hard on him (like run up shield is only a viable approach for him if you powershield); it's really not a good thing. He's a good character but he's flawed whereas Mario is weaker in his core competencies but also significantly less flawed. While I'm not inherently wedded to well-rounded-itis, my rough estimation is that Mario comes out ahead in this. The high tiers are also crowded and Luigi is kinda difficult to place; I probably put him on the low end of reasonable but some of that was having optimism for other characters and not just pessimism for Luigi. I do think the balance in this game is pretty good so a third tier character is still a pretty good character.

I think Lucario's neutral is being understated by some of the more extreme claims. Is it as good as what Diddy, Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, etc. have? No. Is it legitimately bad? No, not really. Lucario has pretty good reach on a lot of moves, a good projectile, a counter, a command grab, decent movement overall (middling ground speed, floaty air physics but a large double jump to compensate and a dair that plays with his fall speed), and middling frame data lacking super fast options but also not burdened by overwhelmingly slow options (very similar to Rosalina w/o Luma on the frame data front really). I think Lucario's neutral game is about average all things considered whereas his pay-offs are huge. If his neutral game were actually horrible I'd probably look at him differently, but I don't think it really is.

What I meant by his reads not having to be in a row was that they don't have to be immediately subsequent. Like let's say Sheik wants to kill really early by making good reads. She can do this but she has to just chain them to keep hitting you and dragging you off-stage for a gimp. Her opponent must make many mistakes/get predicted many times in a very short time frame with a reset to neutral ending the party. Lucario's three reads for a kill at high aura don't have this limitation. He can get one good read, allow a neutral reset, you can run around poking at each other for 10 seconds, he can get his second, 10 more seconds of neutral, and then he gets his third which should be Force Palm grab and the kill. That's a big deal. Obviously if you get a read on Lucario and end his stock the party stops, but my point was that Lucario's ability to capitalize in an escalating way on getting reads in high aura is about not getting read himself and not about avoiding neutral reset like for so many other characters. I value this highly since it puts the burden of avoiding a big loss on his opponent's ability to take a stock not escape a situation; clearly this is controversial. I don't really want to just argue a lot about Lucario; he's only one character and isn't even seeing a ton of play right now. I just really believe that the aura mechanics are very strong on top of an otherwise pretty decent character.

 

[Asdioh]

Plus, Mewtwo being released will make me angry, because custom grinding.

Oh no I didn't even think of that D:
Fun fact! The last 3 customs I unlocked were: 3. Olimar/Alph's Exploding Pluck 2. Villager's Counter Tree thing 1. Lucario's CounterPunch thing.

Which reminds me, as far as incredibly obnoxious customs go, is Villager's tripping sapling at the top of the list? It seems like it will be ridiculous to deal with and I don't know of any other customs quite that bad.

Many good characters have a couple specials that are bad, and would benefit as much as any character from a significantly better option for those slots. Imagine how scary Diddy would be if one of his customs was Sheik's Up B, for example.

This is just theory though? Diddy Kong doesn't get Vanish. We already know all the custom moves in this game (or at least the people who pay more attention than me do) and there doesn't seem to be a problem.

Similarly, there are many bad special moves where none of a character's customs are any better. Jigglypuff UpB, for example, is a functionally worthless move, but somehow the customs are even worse. You can't assume that just because a character has a bad special move that one of their options will be better, sometimes they aren't.

We never claimed customs were perfect, just that it would be better. If Jigglypuff has to "drop" in the tier list because the characters around her get better, then that's a sacrifice I am willing to let the Jigglypuff players make ;_;7

 

[Terotrous]

There's a lot of pretty well established theory about why customs improve balance... and also the actual experiences of those of us who do play with them. It's not like it's a thing no one has ever done; some of us are very familiar with the system. At this point the evidence strongly suggests customs improve balance and the burden of proof would be on the other side; I haven't seen any solid piece of evidence that customs are any kind of a balance problem as opposed to a balance boon.

Honestly, I'm not seeing much evidence either way, it seems like very few tournaments are running them (and, no offence to you or your friends, but we really need to bring a lot of people together to do a thorough test). I've seen like one streamed tournament that had customs on. Do you know of any weeklies that are using the proposals from the custom movesets project?

This is just theory though? Diddy Kong doesn't get Vanish. We already know all the custom moves in this game (or at least the people who pay more attention than me do) and there doesn't seem to be a problem.

We do but I don't think they've been tested enough for us to know for sure how strong they all are. We have some idea, but no doubt there is more tech to be found.

We never claimed customs were perfect, just that it would be better. If Jigglypuff has to "drop" in the tier list because the characters around her get better, then that's a sacrifice I am willing to let the Jigglypuff players make ;_;7

Jiggs isn't alone. Zelda looks like she will drop too (as though she had any further to go), and of course the Miis will drop some because they aren't getting any better (they already have their customs available).

This is why I want to see some estimate of just who benefits and how much before I can be convinced that it is a good idea. Or just some decently-sized tournaments running with customs on.

 

[Swoops]

On the issue of customs, I feel like the best thing would just be to petition Nintendo/Sakurai to release a patch unlocking all custom special moves (custom equipment is whatever since it's random.)

I feel like the novelty of that will run it's course even with the casual crowd, so I see no downside to Ninty just saying, "All unlocked!"

So...who wants to start a petition? >.<

 

[Asdioh]

We do but I don't think they've been tested enough for us to know for sure how strong they all are. We have some idea, but no doubt there is more tech to be found.

So let's just start hosting tournaments with customs enabled. IF a problem shows up, THEN we can deal with it. I don't see the point of being against customs.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well there's no way to just magically test them without having actual samples of actual matches that use them. I figure after Apex 2015 that we SHOULD enable customs. Logistics is one thing but testing can only be done if you actually test them which only happened briefly in 3DS.

 

[Anomilus]

Doc's edgeguarding is also superior to Mario's despite FLUDD but that's another very large story that I don't wanna go off on.

Oh please do! Or at least give a summary of your thoughts. I for one would have suggested Mario had the better edge guard game. Now this isn't considering customs either. I haven't really explored customs myself.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh please do! Or at least give a summary of your thoughts. I for one would have suggested Mario had the better edge guard game. Now this isn't considering customs either. I haven't really explored customs myself.

Doc Tornado can kill you offstage at 70% (with DI it's probably 75%) if you're Bowser, the heaviest in the game. And Doc can recover safely afterwards too. Basically if you don't go Super High or Super Low and you end up in the snare of the Nado, you're probably going to die if you're at 80% and your name isn't like, Shield Shulk.

 

[mimgrim]

Jiggs isn't alone. Zelda looks like she will drop too (as though she had any further to go), and of course the Miis will drop some because they aren't getting any better (they already have their customs available).

The hell you on? Miis are being hella gimped right now in most rule-sets out there. They are being restricted by arbitrary rules to being forced to go 1111 and average height/weight because people are stupid and think it is “unfair” for them to have their customization when none of the other characters can despite them not needing the “custom” toggle on. And these same stupid arbitrary rules towards Mii will probably, and unfortunately, stay the same until customs get turned on. If they were allowed their full customization while the other character weren’t they would shoot up a lot and wouldn’t drop later when the other characters get their customs, the other characters would just be doing catch-up.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Doc Tornado can kill you offstage at 70% (with DI it's probably 75%) if you're Bowser, the heaviest in the game. And Doc can recover safely afterwards too. Basically if you don't go Super High or Super Low and you end up in the snare of the Nado, you're probably going to die if you're at 80% and your name isn't like, Shield Shulk.

what does this nado spike or somthing?

@ mimgrim
i have some serious issue's with time comsuption when it comes to mii sizes if u like i or not they need to be standardized. we cant be having people go back into mii maker just to get there preffered size. also if u want mii's to get there extra moves im guessing u also want palutena's?

 

[TTTTTsd]

what does this nado spike or somthing?

No it just hits REALLY hard. It has high KB and Knockback Growth, the only thing that makes it not kill on-stage until higher %s is basically the fact that it only does 3% on the last hit. But offstage? Hits really hard.

 

[Antonykun]

The hell you on? Miis are being hella gimped right now in most rule-sets out there. They are being restricted by arbitrary rules to being forced to go 1111 and average height/weight because people are stupid and think it is “unfair” for them to have their customization when none of the other characters can despite them not needing the “custom” toggle on. And these same stupid arbitrary rules towards Mii will probably, and unfortunately, stay the same until customs get turned on. If they were allowed their full customization while the other character weren’t they would shoot up a lot and wouldn’t drop later when the other characters get their customs, the other characters would just be doing catch-up.

I think he meant that the Miis would be played without those brain-dead rules

 

[mimgrim]

I think he meant that the Miis would be played without those brain-dead rules

But they currently aren’t played without those brain dead rules, which makes it moot. And I seriously they doubt they will drop even if those rules didn’t exist currently and customs got turned on later, Brawl would remain in the top/high portion of the cast, Gunner should be in the higher portion and remain there, and Swordfighter will probably remain on the lower side.