Character Competitive Impressions

[Tagxy]

I've been around top level MK in Brawl and top level Sheik for the MAJORITY of those game's life span, I hate pulling this card, but I eh, what would you rather hear "all is well, every character is amazing and you should definitely work your heart out with your Ganondorf or Doctor Mario, YOU GOT THIS" or the truth? It is a subjective truth mind you, but one I wouldn't nominally spout if I was the ONLY person feeling that way (within a group of people who are winning every event with those characters or dropping their mains of 2-3 months [chars people consider GOOD in this thread] for 1 day Diddy or Sheik with better results) . If cotton wool is the optimal choice here than all I can be is disappointed and keep my opinions (and the opinions of others) to myself or to facebook. The cycle of ignorance proliferates for another game, SCORE.

Shaya pls, I know we spoke about this earlier, but talking with the same group of people you definitely seem to be the most pessimistic about this. I do agree Marth maybe gets roflstomped by sheik a bit harder then other members of the cast, I know youll disagree with this but I feel like sheiks character design in general counters Marth. However the comparisons to MK, while fun, I dont really think are close enough to ignore the large caveats.

*Spaced aerials that are fairly safe on shield arent exactly sheik exclusive and especially not smash 4 exclusive. (Even moves like pikachus last hit fair in smash 4 create enough shield pushback to prevent punishment with a shield grab.)
*Sheik definitely has nothing like Tornado (or its better melee equivalent, shine) that allows for free offensive shield pressure.
*She has significantly less kill options then MK. MK's strength wasnt how powerful his kill moves were it was that he had so many with low amounts of risk. Sheiks killing options are all fairly risky and not comparable to moves such as kill throws (also unlike MK).
*Metaknight had 5 aerial jumps, tornado, glide, and dimensional cape. He had one of the smallest frames in the game, and attacks that surround his entire body with sweeping disjoints. MK could reliably punish you soundly for trying to juggle him and guessing wrong. MK wasnt free above opponents, but his anti combo/juggle game isnt just better its several tiers above shieks. The closest someone comes to that in smash 4, as A2ZOMG has suggested for months, is Pikachu.
*Good as shiek's range is, it simply is not on the same level as MK. On the ground her range isnt really that outstanding, and in the air her moves will trade as opposed to outright losing as compared to MK.
*Shiek also has a harder time getting her offense started as compared to MK

Compared to other best characters sheik gets juggled easier (MK/Pika), has a bigger frame (all), worse projectiles (fox), harder time killing (all), harder time starting offense (MK/Fox), less shield pressure (all), worse disjoints (MK/Pika), less option coverage (all). I actually can't think of anything she does better then the best characters of other smash games actually.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Woah woah woah, hold up, where are you getting this from? I can't give an exact frame on when his invincibility starts, but Mario can definitely be hit out of the startup for a very short period of time. I'm inclined to think it's still 3f.

Stand on the ground vs ZSS in training. Set frame advance. Up-B with Mario. Jab with ZSS. Mario gets it out unless Explosive Punch is set.

 

[Morbi]

Shaya pls, I know we spoke about this earlier, but talking with the same group of people you definitely seem to be the most pessimistic about this. I do agree Marth maybe gets roflstomped by sheik a bit harder then other members of the cast, I know youll disagree with this but I feel like sheiks character design in general counters Marth. However the comparisons to MK, while fun, I dont really think are close enough to ignore the large caveats.

*Spaced aerials that are fairly safe on shield arent exactly sheik exclusive and especially not smash 4 exclusive. (Even moves like pikachus last hit fair in smash 4 create enough shield pushback to prevent punishment with a shield grab.)
*Sheik definitely has nothing like Tornado (or its better melee equivalent, shine) that allows for free offensive shield pressure.
*She has significantly less kill options then MK. MK's strength wasnt how powerful his kill moves were it was that he had so many with low amounts of risk. Sheiks killing options are all fairly risky and not comparable to moves such as kill throws (also unlike MK).
*Metaknight had 5 aerial jumps, tornado, glide, and dimensional cape. He had one of the smallest frames in the game, and attacks that surround his entire body with sweeping disjoints. MK could reliably punish you soundly for trying to juggle him and guessing wrong. MK wasnt free above opponents, but his anti combo/juggle game isnt just better its several tiers above shieks. The closest someone comes to that in smash 4, as A2ZOMG has suggested for months, is Pikachu.
*Good as shiek's range is, it simply is not on the same level as MK. On the ground her range isnt really that outstanding, and in the air her moves will trade as opposed to outright losing as compared to MK.

To be fair, I believe that the allusions to Meta Knight end at the notion that Meta Knight was top in Brawl and Sheik is top in this game. I doubt Shaya was comparing the two to insinuate that Sheik was broken, I perceived it as more of an assertion to establish that Sheik will be dominant; a loose comparison if you will.

 

[Lavani]

Stand on the ground vs ZSS in training. Set frame advance. Up-B with Mario. Jab with ZSS. Mario gets it out unless Explosive Punch is set.

Unfortunately I'm limited to 3DS so this isn't an option for me. I have concerns about this method that maybe ZSS' jab is going over Mario's head during upB startup and that that isn't happening with Explosive Jump because its slower startup might have a slower bending over animation. Maybe try Mac's jab instead?

I'm regularly seeing Bob-ombs hitting me on frame 2 in training.

 

[Chuva]

Regarding characters that can keep up with Sheik, I believe we already have quite a lot of samples from tournament matches to attest that Lucario vs Sheik MU should be at least even.

 

[Big O]

Stand on the ground vs ZSS in training. Set frame advance. Up-B with Mario. Jab with ZSS. Mario gets it out unless Explosive Punch is set.

I don't think this is true. I tested it vs Little Mac jabs and got interrupted every time. I also tried it with Luigi/Mario jabs and got interrupted every time. I'm inclined to believe it is still frame 3 invincibility, but perhaps he ducks low enough frame 1 to avoid ZSS's tall jab?

 

[Ffamran]

Random topic: How's Peach doing in the metagame? I don't see her being used a lot, so there's not much for me to say.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't think this is true. I tested it vs Little Mac jabs and got interrupted every time. I also tried it with Luigi/Mario jabs and got interrupted every time. I'm inclined to believe it is still frame 3 invincibility, but perhaps he ducks low enough frame 1 to avoid ZSS's tall jab?

Alternately, is Shine still frame 1?

 

[Chuva]

Random topic: How's Peach doing in the metagame? I don't see her being used a lot, so there's not much for me to say.

You basically answered your question: we don't see much of her, so it's hard to say.

 

[Antonykun]

Random topic: How's Peach doing in the metagame? I don't see her being used a lot, so there's not much for me to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLHOu9mynuA
This might help

 

[meleebrawler]

I would probably assert that mentality deterred a lot of people from using the Ice Climbers in Melee, or at the very least, stopped a lot of wobbling. Ice Climbers are always undermined based on my empirical knowledge, even in Brawl. However, in regards to Smash 4, I do not believe that there is an equivalent. Not even Diddy.

Well, that and the obscene difficulty it took to actually
perform Ice Climber chaingrabs consistently.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Alternately, is Shine still frame 1?

...this is actually a good question.

Smooth Criminal

 

[meleebrawler]

I think shine is in fact frame 1...

...but you can't do anything immediately out of
it unless you reflect something, where you get all OOS options,
and it has rather weak knockback so no spiking.
All this pretty much renders reflector almost
useless in close combat, best used strictly as an actual
reflector now.

It probably has frame 1 startup so Amplifying Reflector can exist.

 

[Big O]

Alternately, is Shine still frame 1?

Nope. Hits frame 6. No invincibility before then either (or at all?).

 

[Lavani]

Looks like it hits frame 6, might reflect things before that still?

EDIT: 'd

 

[Ffamran]

You basically answered your question: we don't see much of her, so it's hard to say.

I kind of expected you guys and gals to know a bit on Peach.

Note: Didn't watch AntonyKun's linked video yet.
I don't know, but Peach just seems like a safe and all right fighter. Bair's awesome kind of like Falco's but maybe a bit faster, Up Smash kills, Side Smash is fun, has range, and definitely kills; Down Smash spaces, Ftilt looks like it has anti-air and anti-platform potential, Peach Bomber is fast and looks like a fast approach, her recovery is sweet - pun intended -, Dair looks like it could edge-guard and harass well, Dtilt meteors, but I don't know the timing and spacing; Fair has start-up, but it looks like it could punish shields if since if they time it wrong, then a crown to the face, Toad's range is phenomenal, and Vegetable gives her more spacing and zoning.

Peach seems like a solid character, but she's been like this since Melee, her debut.

Oh, and she seems like a character that would be a pain to fight as if your don't have good air game or mobility since she could just hover and harass you.

 

[Asdioh]

Stand on the ground vs ZSS in training. Set frame advance. Up-B with Mario. Jab with ZSS. Mario gets it out unless Explosive Punch is set.

I just tested this multiple times. I went to Kongo Jungle, in case the slant was truly the problem, but even on the flat surface, ZSS jabbed Mario before UpB came out. Then I tested it with Kirby (frame 3 jab) and I clearly see Kirby jab but Mario's invincibility beats it.

 

[Shaya]

Just going to comment on this because it's been bugging me.
We have 51 characters in this game. Arguable with Apex Mii fighter rule change (1111,2222,3333 for Mii's) a tad more.
You're saying that it's possibly underselling it that Sheik has 65:35 on 45/50 (excluding herself) characters.

I don't want to be the math sticker but lets reground this?
You presume 6 characters, we've past 90% from the start.
Lets talk your other 5, we're now at 40/50 characters. Kirby vs Sheik might by Kirbys favourite top-tier match up. I'll put it to 11.
22% of the cast already is removed. We've got Lucario as a MU that has to be considered as well. We can already put it to 12. If it is a Sheik meta and there are about 12 if not more characters then we're already talking about 25% of the cast being just fine in a Sheik dominated game, in the current state of things.

Im assuming you've deliberately left out Sonic.
Which leaves me to also wonder about hypothetically
1) Sheik vs Pacman
2) Where does your previous comment that "G&W janks top tiers" fall relative to Sheik?
3) Pit?
4) Is every heavy just being thrown immediately into this idea of crap MU's? What about DK?

In any event even if we say take out Kirby, include your initial six, hypothetical five and put Lucario in ? marks. That is 20% of the cast. Start delving into other characters and Sheik's presence can increase or decrease in the coming months.

To Tl;dr: You really want to put Sheik on that pedestal?

My underselling was the 65:35 part, not 90% of the cast part
I've heard bad things about sheik vs sonic, but I haven't seen it to be sure.

1. Pac is good against low damage characters, hydrant becomes a consistent nuisance, his recovery is pretty swell. Definitely forces Sheik to approach with his item-stack thing. Next time @RichBrown is around I'll ask him to play ZeRo's sheik a little. Rich may not be Japan-level Pac but his creativeness with the character is amazing, so who knows. It'll really depend on how pac deals with the pressure up close.

2. Windboxing the up-b or bouncing fish. Crouching under a few things. Up Smash invincibility janks everyone the same. Not a bad match up for Gdubs I'd say. She can't really edge guard/gimp him and needles are so-so (kinda like amazing whiff punishes more so than something you can outcamp him with).

3. Pit seems better apt at dealing with Diddy IMO, Pit's strength in edge guarding and 'forcing approaches' is not that reliable against Sheik. Both have killing issues, so that helps Pit a lot more in comparison to Sheik (because losing a lot of off stage pressure usually notes a hard match up for Pit). Sheik edge guards Pit disgustingly hard though. Like really disgusting.

4. I've seen a lot of heavies do well. DK may be one of the worse ones in neutral against her, but of course his ability in an advantageous position is monstrous (how is she getting through his back air? holy ****). I don't think heavies do as well against Sheik as design would tell you (sheik cannot kill, so heavies + rage = **** yeah) primarily because of their recoveries.

Why is it a pedestal though? Why isn't it just learning/accepting the game? Things will change. You want to talk about theoretical changes/advances rather than what we [individually] see?

In brawl, 65:35 was practically the worst match up number that could be given. It insinuated you would win 1 out of 3 games, but in tournament you wouldn't. In fact you'd probably be losing so poorly in such a match up that you'd barely be taking stocks. To me that doesn't paint the picture properly at all. Sheik may 65:35 the entire cast for all I care, that doesn't mean they cannot lose a set to those characters or that it isn't worth learning the match up, or that a first time Sheik can beat a better player well versed in the match up (SHEIK DEFINITELY HAS A LEARNING CURVE, I don't necessarily think she's mentally intensive once your tech is down, but she lives on a tighter wire than Diddy Kong does, that stress will be the reason why Diddy is going to be an easier go to for time to come).

*Spaced aerials that are fairly safe on shield arent exactly sheik exclusive and especially not smash 4 exclusive. (Even moves like pikachus last hit fair in smash 4 create enough shield pushback to prevent punishment with a shield grab.)

Funny you mention Pikachu fair. Jun and I were practising today and realised that the final hit of Pikachu's forward air has a MASSIVE hit lag modifier. Enough of a hit lag modifier in fact that I can shield drop, perfect pivot shield and Pikachu's barely started moving from the frozen state in the air. I'm actually really happy with that discovery. Pikachu's forward air is literally G&W back air tier (maybe).

Spaced aerials are spaced. Sheik's fair on shield into jab, ftilt or almost grab (could spot dodge) are actually guaranteed, think about it. Another character hits my shield and I can choose an action that can get me away or punish, but if they read it I continue to get hit. The only option here really is holding shield until she messes up. Her grab game isn't the worse thing in the world, so that's why you'd hold shield. But the jab or ftilt on your shield isn't punishable either. You cannot drop shield when sheik fairs you and re-shield without getting hit first, this is something that only existed on the most impressive timings on moves (Auto cancelling peach's aerials, Marth's nair, silent falco laser) in Brawl, but exists for free on Sheik. It legitimately doesn't make sense to me as a hard-core smash studier. It shouldn't make sense to anyone else either why this exists.

*Sheik definitely has nothing like Tornado (or its better melee equivalent, shine) that allows for free offensive shield pressure.

Fair is free offensive shield pressure. Needles are transcended and she has amazing grounded options for being mobile while needling. Very early on in the game's life time, we didn't know how to auto cancel Tornado. Tornado was good, everyone was like "**** it beats everything!" but the proclaimed option of "shielding it all and waiting" was a legitimate strategy at that time of the meta. Hell it still was, really.

*She has significantly less kill options then MK. MK's strength wasnt how powerful his kill moves were it was that he had so many with low amounts of risk. Sheiks killing options are all fairly risky and not comparable to moves such as kill throws (also unlike MK).

His forward smash wasn't risky. Shuttle Loop was a lot less risky than it should've been. Everything else was definitely risky at top level. But I'm not trying to say end-life of Brawl meta comparison. Yeah yeah, shuttle loop + dsmash spam all day, every day; everyone hated it and match up numbers were even based on the notion you couldn't punish the thing (down smash). Crazy. Sheik may have the best back air in the game, imo, it's a very very strong killer. Actually, I think 's is better.

*Metaknight had 5 aerial jumps, tornado, glide, and dimensional cape. He had one of the smallest frames in the game, and attacks that surround his entire body with sweeping disjoints. MK could reliably punish you soundly for trying to juggle him and guessing wrong. MK wasnt free above opponents, but his anti combo/juggle game isnt just better its several tiers above shieks. The closest someone comes to that in smash 4, as A2ZOMG has suggested for months, is Pikachu.

A lot of sheik's moves flatten her body or generally minimise her frame. It's one of those hidden power things we all know and love (like Pikachu's landing lag animations being lower than majority of grabs). Sheik's disadvantaged state is no where near as good as MK's one though, but that's also an inherent part of a new engine too. But to be quite frank, have you forgotten sky's invitational? Bouncing Fish is a supremely good get out of jail free card for juggle situations. Several tiers lower than MK tells me you have

*Good as shiek's range is, it simply is not on the same level as MK. On the ground her range isnt really that outstanding, and in the air her moves will trade as opposed to outright losing as compared to MK.
*Shiek also has a harder time getting her offense started as compared to MK

Compared to other best characters sheik gets juggled easier (MK/Pika), has a bigger frame (all), worse projectiles (fox), harder time killing (all), harder time starting offense (MK/Fox), less shield pressure (all), worse disjoints (MK/Pika), less option coverage (all). I actually can't think of anything she does better then the best characters of other smash games actually.

Juggling wasn't a "thing" in smash 64 though, it was more like you were getting combo'd to death (i.e. you were still in hitstun). Weird comparison.
Frame stuff is really under appreciated here, at first glance, sure, she's a human-sized character. She's very thin though and most of her animations have contours of the body. Her crouch is lower than them all too.
Needles are close to the best projectile in this game, if not, very close to. Turnips, Falco's lasers (melee) and even sheik's needles in melee too were very good as well. Brawl projectiles... I can kinda see why you skipped it
Her mobility specs are better than Meta Knight's bar having 5 jumps, Meta Knight had a hard time approaching most characters in Brawl (he just could OoS punish just about everything against a majority of the cast). So I'm not sure what you mean by starting offense. I don't think MK can compared to M:Fox here.
Less shield pressure is a game by game context. Every character in 64 had god tier shield pressure. Fox shield pressure requires him to be on top of you. MK is probably the best in this regard that's ever existed in a top tier, but he wasn't alone in his ability to shield pressure in that game (imo). Sheik seems to have the best shield pressure I've seen in this game.
MK's disjoints are fantastic (transcended priority ontop of this was game-breaking), but this is another thing of a game by game context. In short, priority. I would put most of the 'priority' to Diddy or Ness this game, but Sheik bair/needles in my experiences thus far are things characters really don't outprioritise in any way that MK/pika wouldn't in their games. Sheik has more range than a lot of the characters too.

Option coverage is a 10,000 word essay level proposition. But the reason top players think she's the best is because of her option coverage, not the strength of those options. If there's a situation sheik doesn't have a multitude of options, I'm very keen to hear it though.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Fantastic. You're a meta-denier. You aren't a competitive player in my eyes.
Top players are going to keep working, and the less-driven players like yourself will get weighed down by it.
I know it wasn't just me.

I think that because your only contribution other than your last post (that you had to add "i hate you all for making me post") in a month has been the populist card like-farming crap, straight up. And you know it. So, yeah, you're waiting for the answers. Otherwise you wouldn't have that attitude.



Well, this game doesn't have the same meta setters like in Brawl, stuff which nullifies match up design due to heavy risk/reward skews (i.e. get grabbed at 0% for more than half your stock then get super camped). So realistically, characters should have a poor match up or two somewhere. I don't think having a few poor match ups puts you outside of top tier at this stage (well, I wouldn't want to put Mario in the same tier as Diddy/Sheik, but anywhere after that is feasible).
Tyrant thinks Ness is 3rd over Pikachu, but Ness would most definitely have harder match ups in this game that are below him in 'viability'. Stuff like Rosalina and Mario should have a pretty okay time against him.

But yeah, at this stage, I think viability is based off of power levels more so than match ups/popularity combination. Screw bad match ups, your character can have 15 bad match ups but can have similar capabilities to Sheik/Diddy and be a top 5 character in many people's eyes. Match ups aren't developed yet to have an alternative perspective.

Sorry im not meaning to call you out but how is one person who mains a low teir not working just as hard as someone maining a high tier?

 

[Shaya]

Sorry im not meaning to call you out but how is one person who mains a low teir not working just as hard as someone maining a high tier?

Top players aren't only playing diddy or sheik. Competitiveness is an attitude not who you main.
I think that's covering it? My apologies but I'm a little confused on how you came to that (if what I just said didn't).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, ZSS jab has bad hitboxes and whiffs sometimes, great. Sorry.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's dolphin slash has frame 4-6 invincibility on the ground but 1-4 in the air.
What's wrong with the mac-jab test?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Top players aren't only playing diddy or sheik. Competitiveness is an attitude not who you main.
I think that's covering it? My apologies but I'm a little confused on how you came to that (if what I just said didn't).

i know its just how i interpreted ur first part of the post. xd

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Why is it a pedestal though? Why isn't it just learning/accepting the game? Things will change. You want to talk about theoretical changes/advances rather than what we [individually] see?

I'm fine with everyone talking about their regional, and the overarching meta.

It's a pedestal because I'm biased. I've been critical of sheik for the past month and I'm wary of her success. The real point of criticizing the "90%" was because what I really want to get at is how much presence Sheik really has.
If Im saying "15/51 characters walk the line between even and a small positive or negative situation vs Sheik" then I have to start wondering if there is a character more dominating then that. Have to start putting ideas then if there is a character in that situation, if there is anyone forcing that character out.

All I'm doing is attacking notions of who is the biggest threat. Not because they aren't, but because what If they aren't and more importantly if they are, who and/or what threatens that. It's been about learning from the beginning because the games already been accepted.

I like to discuss both because the theory can lead to deconstruction of the present.

 

[JWrecks]

Personally I think charizard does decently against shiek, he gets combo'd for days but he is really tough to kill for a heavy. Against shiek it's pretty easy to live post 200% and you can KO her very early when your rage is that high, actually if you make a good read you can KO her very early anyway.

When shiek short hops you can rock smash to shut down Fair pressure, this isn't super reliable or even a good idea, but it is one of the few things that will make shiek think about throwing out Fair all day for free.

The issue is if they play safe they will just rack up damage all day on you.

I know it sounds astronomically stupid but I feel like it's a skill matchup, then again I haven't played any god tier shiek players so my MU knowledge is admittedly mostly theory and practice against admittedly not top flight competition ( at least for shiek )

 

[Kofu]

Funny you mention Pikachu fair. Jun and I were practising today and realised that the final hit of Pikachu's forward air has a MASSIVE hit lag modifier. Enough of a hit lag modifier in fact that I can shield drop, perfect pivot shield and Pikachu's barely started moving from the frozen state in the air. I'm actually really happy with that discovery. Pikachu's forward air is literally G&W back air tier (maybe).

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, Pikachu FAir and Game & Watch FAir both have massive hit lag modifiers that make them terribly unsafe on shield, correct? If that's the case then why don't moves like Marth's tippered attacks have that same lack of safety? I guess I just don't understand hitlag modifiers because I've always heard that Marth's have extreme ones and I always thought they made attacks safer on shield.

 

[Shaya]

I'm fine with everyone talking about their regional, and the overarching meta.

It's a pedestal because I'm biased. I've been critical of sheik for the past month and I'm wary of her success. The real point of criticizing the "90%" was because what I really want to get at is how much presence Sheik really has.
If Im saying "15/51 characters walk the line between even and a small positive or negative situation vs Sheik" then I have to start wondering if there is a character more dominating then that. Have to start putting ideas then if there is a character in that situation, if there is anyone forcing that character out.

All I'm doing is attacking notions of who is the biggest threat. Not because they aren't, but because what If they aren't and more importantly if they are, who and/or what threatens that. It's been about learning from the beginning because the games already been accepted.

I like to discuss both because the theory can lead to deconstruction of the present.

That's fair enough. I was very skeptical before finding myself in Los Angeles about her as well. I was in a "Diddy and Sonic, FARRRRR out" view, I can attest that to this thread and 3DS a bit.
Right now I don't really know if there's a match up sheik loses. Her shield pressure and edge guarding are pretty dominant in a way that really hurts many match ups/characters, because I feel they don't have options with dealing with them. Luigi and Mario (and Ness) are the best characters I've seen against Sheik thus far, but I don't know if she loses to either of them.

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, Pikachu FAir and Game & Watch FAir both have massive hit lag modifiers that make them terribly unsafe on shield, correct? If that's the case then why don't moves like Marth's tippered attacks have that same lack of safety? I guess I just don't understand hitlag modifiers because I've always heard that Marth's have extreme ones and I always thought they made attacks safer on shield.

G&W's back air (turtle), not fair.

Pika's last hit of fair: Hitbox_029(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x30, KBG=0x96, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x32, Size=7.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=11.000000, Element=0x3, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=2.200000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x1, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x0, 5.500000, 9.000000, )

(just because I can go and check the literal, but I hadn't noticed this in game before up until now).

marth's hit lag modifiers are 1.25 (or 1.50 on smashes). Pikachu last hit of fair is 2.2. G&W's last hit of bair is 2.5 (ouch that sucks).
BIGGGGGGGG opportunities for punishes on shield that I doubt people were aware of (I definitely wasn't). That mean's a fair trailing on top of your shield is not as safe as one would assume. Pika will have to mix up fast falls before landing the last hit or retreat away to not have the last hit touch their shield. If only Sheik's weaknesses were this easy to find

 

[Chuva]

I kind of expected you guys and gals to know a bit on Peach.

Note: Didn't watch AntonyKun's linked video yet.
I don't know, but Peach just seems like a safe and all right fighter. Bair's awesome kind of like Falco's but maybe a bit faster, Up Smash kills, Side Smash is fun, has range, and definitely kills; Down Smash spaces, Ftilt looks like it has anti-air and anti-platform potential, Peach Bomber is fast and looks like a fast approach, her recovery is sweet - pun intended -, Dair looks like it could edge-guard and harass well, Dtilt meteors, but I don't know the timing and spacing; Fair has start-up, but it looks like it could punish shields if since if they time it wrong, then a crown to the face, Toad's range is phenomenal, and Vegetable gives her more spacing and zoning.

Peach seems like a solid character, but she's been like this since Melee, her debut.

Oh, and she seems like a character that would be a pain to fight as if your don't have good air game or mobility since she could just hover and harass you.

Unfortunately, I think I've only seen two Peaches in high-level play. My scene has no dedicated Peach and I think the same could be said about a lot of other scenes. I haven't seen anything of her in the japanese tourneys either. It's really hard to have a tangible notion of her place in the meta-game when she barely has representation. Same could be said of other characters with potential like

But if we're talking about theory, then I feel she surely has the potential to be at least a high tier characters for reason you've already mentioned: good normals, aerials, specials, setups, her whole float game being very useful in certain MUs etc. I'd love to see all of these good attributes in action against the so far dominant forces in this game (Diddy, Sheik etc) but Peach is a character you need to really invest time honing, and unfortunately not a lot of people are taking their time to do so.

 

[san.]

It depends. Pikachu players should've been aware of this on day 1. There are ways to space fair so a punish on shield isn't always automatic by avoiding that last hit by drifting away to escape or fastfalling for only a light punish. This same kind of hitlag on shield I notice on attacks like Charizard's dragon rush (or whatever it's called) too.

 

[David Viran]

My underselling was the 65:35 part, not 90% of the cast part
I've heard bad things about sheik vs sonic, but I haven't seen it to be sure.

1. Pac is good against low damage characters, hydrant becomes a consistent nuisance, his recovery is pretty swell. Definitely forces Sheik to approach with his item-stack thing. Next time @RichBrown is around I'll ask him to play ZeRo's sheik a little. Rich may not be Japan-level Pac but his creativeness with the character is amazing, so who knows. It'll really depend on how pac deals with the pressure up close.

2. Windboxing the up-b or bouncing fish. Crouching under a few things. Up Smash invincibility janks everyone the same. Not a bad match up for Gdubs I'd say. She can't really edge guard/gimp him and needles are so-so (kinda like amazing whiff punishes more so than something you can outcamp him with).

3. Pit seems better apt at dealing with Diddy IMO, Pit's strength in edge guarding and 'forcing approaches' is not that reliable against Sheik. Both have killing issues, so that helps Pit a lot more in comparison to Sheik (because losing a lot of off stage pressure usually notes a hard match up for Pit). Sheik edge guards Pit disgustingly hard though. Like really disgusting.

4. I've seen a lot of heavies do well. DK may be one of the worse ones in neutral against her, but of course his ability in an advantageous position is monstrous (how is she getting through his back air? holy ****). I don't think heavies do as well against Sheik as design would tell you (sheik cannot kill, so heavies + rage = **** yeah) primarily because of their recoveries.

Why is it a pedestal though? Why isn't it just learning/accepting the game? Things will change. You want to talk about theoretical changes/advances rather than what we [individually] see?

In brawl, 65:35 was practically the worst match up number that could be given. It insinuated you would win 1 out of 3 games, but in tournament you wouldn't. In fact you'd probably be losing so poorly in such a match up that you'd barely be taking stocks. To me that doesn't paint the picture properly at all. Sheik may 65:35 the entire cast for all I care, that doesn't mean they cannot lose a set to those characters or that it isn't worth learning the match up, or that a first time Sheik can beat a better player well versed in the match up (SHEIK DEFINITELY HAS A LEARNING CURVE, I don't necessarily think she's mentally intensive once your tech is down, but she lives on a tighter wire than Diddy Kong does, that stress will be the reason why Diddy is going to be an easier go to for time to come).


Funny you mention Pikachu fair. Jun and I were practising today and realised that the final hit of Pikachu's forward air has a MASSIVE hit lag modifier. Enough of a hit lag modifier in fact that I can shield drop, perfect pivot shield and Pikachu's barely started moving from the frozen state in the air. I'm actually really happy with that discovery. Pikachu's forward air is literally G&W back air tier (maybe).

Spaced aerials are spaced. Sheik's fair on shield into jab, ftilt or almost grab (could spot dodge) are actually guaranteed, think about it. Another character hits my shield and I can choose an action that can get me away or punish, but if they read it I continue to get hit. The only option here really is holding shield until she messes up. Her grab game isn't the worse thing in the world, so that's why you'd hold shield. But the jab or ftilt on your shield isn't punishable either. You cannot drop shield when sheik fairs you and re-shield without getting hit first, this is something that only existed on the most impressive timings on moves (Auto cancelling peach's aerials, Marth's nair, silent falco laser) in Brawl, but exists for free on Sheik. It legitimately doesn't make sense to me as a hard-core smash studier. It shouldn't make sense to anyone else either why this exists.


Fair is free offensive shield pressure. Needles are transcended and she has amazing grounded options for being mobile while needling. Very early on in the game's life time, we didn't know how to auto cancel Tornado. Tornado was good, everyone was like "**** it beats everything!" but the proclaimed option of "shielding it all and waiting" was a legitimate strategy at that time of the meta. Hell it still was, really.


His forward smash wasn't risky. Shuttle Loop was a lot less risky than it should've been. Everything else was definitely risky at top level. But I'm not trying to say end-life of Brawl meta comparison. Yeah yeah, shuttle loop + dsmash spam all day, every day; everyone hated it and match up numbers were even based on the notion you couldn't punish the thing (down smash). Crazy. Sheik may have the best back air in the game, imo, it's a very very strong killer. Actually, I think 's is better.


A lot of sheik's moves flatten her body or generally minimise her frame. It's one of those hidden power things we all know and love (like Pikachu's landing lag animations being lower than majority of grabs). Sheik's disadvantaged state is no where near as good as MK's one though, but that's also an inherent part of a new engine too. But to be quite frank, have you forgotten sky's invitational? Bouncing Fish is a supremely good get out of jail free card for juggle situations. Several tiers lower than MK tells me you have



Juggling wasn't a "thing" in smash 64 though, it was more like you were getting combo'd to death (i.e. you were still in hitstun). Weird comparison.
Frame stuff is really under appreciated here, at first glance, sure, she's a human-sized character. She's very thin though and most of her animations have contours of the body. Her crouch is lower than them all too.
Needles are close to the best projectile in this game, if not, very close to. Turnips, Falco's lasers (melee) and even sheik's needles in melee too were very good as well. Brawl projectiles... I can kinda see why you skipped it
Her mobility specs are better than Meta Knight's bar having 5 jumps, Meta Knight had a hard time approaching most characters in Brawl (he just could OoS punish just about everything against a majority of the cast). So I'm not sure what you mean by starting offense. I don't think MK can compared to M:Fox here.
Less shield pressure is a game by game context. Every character in 64 had god tier shield pressure. Fox shield pressure requires him to be on top of you. MK is probably the best in this regard that's ever existed in a top tier, but he wasn't alone in his ability to shield pressure in that game (imo). Sheik seems to have the best shield pressure I've seen in this game.
MK's disjoints are fantastic (transcended priority ontop of this was game-breaking), but this is another thing of a game by game context. In short, priority. I would put most of the 'priority' to Diddy or Ness this game, but Sheik bair/needles in my experiences thus far are things characters really don't outprioritise in any way that MK/pika wouldn't in their games. Sheik has more range than a lot of the characters too.

Option coverage is a 10,000 word essay level proposition. But the reason top players think she's the best is because of her option coverage, not the strength of those options. If there's a situation sheik doesn't have a multitude of options, I'm very keen to hear it though.

I have to say one thimg that sheiks fair is not really to spammable because a PS will lead to a punish against sheik.

 

[Shaya]

I have to say one thimg that sheiks fair is not really to spammable because a PS will lead to a punish against sheik.

If you don't have a 3/4 frame long range ground move, power shielding means nothing little. :<
You have to power shield sheik's fair then hard read her next option. It is similar to Tink in Brawl, except he had to get out a bomb, boomerang and have good spacing before hand to achieve it, you then had to hard read his options out of power shielding to punish him, or weather the storm and try to capitalise on his projectile down time.

 

[David Viran]

If you don't have a 3/4 frame long range ground move, power shielding means nothing. :<

I only said this because I use this alot against shiek as a zss main. The match up I don't feel is to bad either because of this. Sheik can't pressure too hard or risk a PS and get punished and thank god my character has some godly punishes.

 

[san.]

I think a rising fair is punishable on shield, but a falling well spaced fair isn't, yet more predictable.

 

[Ffamran]

Unfortunately, I think I've only seen two Peaches in high-level play. My scene has no dedicated Peach and I think the same could be said about a lot of other scenes. I haven't seen anything of her in the japanese tourneys either. It's really hard to have a tangible notion of her place in the meta-game when she barely has representation. Same could be said of other characters with potential like

But if we're talking about theory, then I feel she surely has the potential to be at least a high tier characters for reason you've already mentioned: good normals, aerials, specials, setups, her whole float game being very useful in certain MUs etc. I'd love to see all of these good attributes in action against the so far dominant forces in this game (Diddy, Sheik etc) but Peach is a character you need to really invest time honing, and unfortunately not a lot of people are taking their time to do so.

No kidding, the video AntonyKun linked is really awesome (it's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLHOu9mynuA), but the commentators mentioned that Peach is a really technical character like... Marth except even more difficult since Marth players must master spacing which masters tippers and non-tipped attacks, but Peach is on another level; it's spacing, floating, and using aerials like they're ground moves which the commentators said would be mastering the controller. That said, she does seems like a really safe character.

Well, in theory a lot of characters are good and some are in theory are really bad, but results are more applicable...

Huh... Apparently VGBootCamp has several videos of Peach... Well... Ahem... Here's some: Snow (Fox) vs Pink Fresh (Peach) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EF_jmI2Yqw.

Forte (Link & Rosalina) vs Pink Fresh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2c50SBAtWQ.

 

[Tagxy]

G&W's back air (turtle), not fair.

Pika's last hit of fair: Hitbox_029(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x30, KBG=0x96, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x32, Size=7.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=11.000000, Element=0x3, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=2.200000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x1, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x0, 5.500000, 9.000000, )

(just because I can go and check the literal, but I hadn't noticed this in game before up until now).

marth's hit lag modifiers are 1.25 (or 1.50 on smashes). Pikachu last hit of fair is 2.2. G&W's last hit of bair is 2.5 (ouch that sucks).
BIGGGGGGGG opportunities for punishes on shield that I doubt people were aware of (I definitely wasn't). That mean's a fair trailing on top of your shield is not as safe as one would assume. Pika will have to mix up fast falls before landing the last hit or retreat away to not have the last hit touch their shield. If only Sheik's weaknesses were this easy to find

It depends. Pikachu players should've been aware of this on day 1. There are ways to space fair so a punish on shield isn't always automatic by avoiding that last hit by drifting away to escape or fastfalling for only a light punish. This same kind of hitlag on shield I notice on attacks like Charizard's dragon rush (or whatever it's called) too.

Its easy to notice, but it also goes along with sizable pushback on shield thats surprised both me an my opponent. Optimal spacing on fair means retreating the last hit at max distance on shield so you and your opponent are traveling in opposite directions. Of course in Brawl mixing up hits and cross-ups were a big part of its safety since good characters could punish it on shield as well.

 

[Kofu]

G&W's back air (turtle), not fair.

Pika's last hit of fair: Hitbox_029(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x30, KBG=0x96, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x32, Size=7.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=11.000000, Element=0x3, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=2.200000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x1, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x0, 5.500000, 9.000000, )

(just because I can go and check the literal, but I hadn't noticed this in game before up until now).

marth's hit lag modifiers are 1.25 (or 1.50 on smashes). Pikachu last hit of fair is 2.2. G&W's last hit of bair is 2.5 (ouch that sucks).
BIGGGGGGGG opportunities for punishes on shield that I doubt people were aware of (I definitely wasn't). That mean's a fair trailing on top of your shield is not as safe as one would assume. Pika will have to mix up fast falls before landing the last hit or retreat away to not have the last hit touch their shield. If only Sheik's weaknesses were this easy to find

I meant BAir, I swear. And I see. That seems a little... strange that the hitlag modifiers are so extreme on those moves. I actually have a suspicion that a lot of multi-hit attacks have similar modifiers. Bowser Jr's FSmash has a 2.2 multiplier and Peach's DSmash has 3 (loling). Not all do, though. I guess it just seems strange that the moves are weak but have such severe multipliers. Another part of my question is that I thought that hitlag affected both the user of the move and the recipient, so why does it end up being so bad for the attacker?

A few more impressions I've had about Game & Watch. He feels like a more complete character in this game than in Brawl, mainly because he actually has a ground game now. Almost all of his ground moves have a good use (except UTilt but that move is probably irredeemable unless they completely change it). Oil Panic is marginally more useful now and Chef works better (it might have slightly improved frame data but I think the mechanics simply favor it now). But I'm going to have to concede agreement with some other mains that he feels a little overly nerfed, mainly in terms of landing lag, kill potential, and damage output in a few cases. One conjecture is that he felt too powerful for casuals so they nerfed the complaint areas, only to significantly hurt his competitive viability (not that he was really viable in Brawl). Are there any other characters who have no autocanceled low jump aerials? I mean, Mega Man basically qualifies because his NAir is a special case, but beyond that. It also upsets me that his DAir seems to be the most easily punished of the falling DAir class of moves.

• Link's doesn't force him to fall specifically but its hitbox extends far past the actual sword to cover the width of hit body and includes his body, too. It's also significantly stronger than G&W's.
• Toon Link's is probably less safe in hit but it falls faster and has an obnoxious windbox when he lands.
• ZSS's DAir spikes the whole way and is also faster. Did I mention it spikes the whole way?
• Sonic's resolves the fastest IIRC and his mobility allows him to escape a little easier.
• Bowser's has obscene priority, hits harder, and has a larger landing shockwave.
• Greninja's let's him bounce off after hitting the target or their shield to escape retaliation. I guess it doesn't have a landing shockwave to compensate. (It's also broken in Smash Run )

I dunno, it just feels like Game & Watch's gets the shirt end of the stick. The meteor hitbox, while a little better in this game, is still really small and impractical, especially since you can no longer slow fall the move. It seems to drop at a slower rate than most which makes punishing it easier. Not helping is the hitbox which only appears to cover the key itself. I also feel like I'm punished after landing with the move more than other players are for using similar moves. According to landing data it isn't the worst but it sure seems like it sometimes.

Also, random rant, but has anyone noticed that Upperdash Arm is basically Raptor Boost except with added super armor and the fact that it doesn't put Pit into fall special? In general it seems arbitrary which side-moving specials put the user into helpless and which don't.

 

[Tagxy]

@ Shaya Aerial > fast ground move was actually a staple melee offense, a type of pseudo shield pressure in the same way youd describe sheik. The key to beating it was to not shield over other significant options, such as defensive movement or by beating it outright. In melee it generally lost to dash dancing and wave dashing. Of course Smash 4 also has ways of handeling this with pivot tilts and perfect pivoting (next time Deez asks how itll be useful, throw that at him ). I actually think Brawl Peach was the epitome of this (since she had several aerial mixups that served the same purpose, more then even melee peach), she thrived on characters shielding her aerials to some BS unless you had some broken OOS option. However those wise to the MU (the ones it mattered to) knew you could just knock peach out of her approaching aerial. This was also why I was so adamant about pika/peach in Brawl being overrated, all video evidence showed players letting peach hit shields for free when an ftilt to the face was the best solution. Ftilt still works great against shiek fair as well. Tornado and shine had no other defensive or counter options that beat it that werent very niche.

This is why offensively shes not comparable to previous S tier characters. Also excluding "everyone has shield pressure" 64, melee Fox far and away had the best shield pressure because he had true shield pressure (advantage on block + a frame one invincible move that lead to massive combos) and was better at setting it up with the best mobility in any smash game and an invisible disjointed move.

Also regarding option coverage, yes this could be discussed a lot but one thing in particular I think stands out is I think sheik isnt so great at covering or abusing the space above her as a potential game best character. Think 64 pika, Melee Fox, Brawl MK. Upsmash is kind of meh (lets consider MK's grounded up-b an upsmash since it basically served all the same functions). Lastly I think Brawl MK has a better offense then smash 4 sheik mainly because he has better options out of dash which is the focal point of all offense, keep in mind when I say offense I mean purely neutral game. Granted Fox definitely is well above the rest in this regard.


*Agree that moves like MK dsmash were risky at top level, but the fact that it took a decent amount of experience and precision moreso what I was implying. Though you maybe knew that.

*And yes sheik has some good anti-juggling tools but I really dont think theyre that amazing, flexible or turn momentum around the same way Tornado and Quick Attack can. Juggling wasnt as big in 64 as other games but it was still a thing, pika in 64 had frame 1 invincibility on QA that allowed him to escape bad situations and its def something you see in high level 64.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On the topic of reversals, the BEST reversal in the game by far is Doc Up-B. 3 frames, does 13% in a single hit, can kill from center stage at like 130-140%. And you can still get the sweetspot hit both in front AND behind when doing reverse Up-B.

Now THAT move is ridiculous.

 

[Thinkaman]

I meant BAir, I swear. And I see. That seems a little... strange that the hitlag modifiers are so extreme on those moves. I actually have a suspicion that a lot of multi-hit attacks have similar modifiers. Bowser Jr's FSmash has a 2.2 multiplier and Peach's DSmash has 3 (loling). Not all do, though. I guess it just seems strange that the moves are weak but have such severe multipliers.

It's not strange at all, hitlag is damage times the multiplier. (Hence, "multiplier") Multi-hit moves have nominally less damage on the last hit, so they need a multiplier to be similar in hitlag to moves of comparable knockback.

Similarly, they have huge raw KBG values too.

On the topic of reversals, the BEST reversal in the game by far is Doc Up-B. 3 frames, does 13% in a single hit, can kill from center stage at like 130-140%. And you can still get the sweetspot hit both in front AND behind when doing reverse Up-B.

Now THAT move is ridiculous.

Plus you can use it in the air (or ground or air->ground), which is a crucial requirement.

Also, it only does 12% raw, technically. It does 12.6% fresh.

Up-b 3 is frame 5 and has similar KO power (a little higher), but does 21% raw. (22.05% fresh) Also the way the hitboxes on it are structured, it works better as an anti-air than the default up-b in most cases. (It retains full KO power, and does 13% instead of 6%.)

 

[Kofu]

It's not strange at all, hitlag is damage times the multiplier. (Hence, "multiplier") Multi-hit moves have nominally less damage on the last hit, so they need a multiplier to be similar in hitlag to moves of comparable knockback.

Similarly, they have huge raw KBG values too.

I'd agree except similarly powered moves don't have the same painful hitlag modifier. Doc's DAir, Falco's Fair, and Dedede's UAir all have standard 1.0 modifiers. Greninja's UAir and Pit's FAir however, have 2.5 and 2.2 multipliers respectively. It honestly seems kind of arbitrary.