Character Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

It's called needles and forward airing.

Spot dodge the bouncing fish and it'll lag whiff rather than bouncing away. I think it's a similar level of reaction/timing required as dealing with Falco's Side-B in Brawl.

Fair isn't infallible. Yes, it's blindingly quick with surprising
range and combos insanely, but it doesn't do much to a shield
and actually has to be spaced correctly on the ground to avoid a punish.

I figured as much for spotdodging... unfortunately you're
more likely to see Bouncing Fishes when you're recovering,
where this doesn't apply.

IMO, needles are only scary when you're recovering
or you let them get to your head. It's fast and spammable,
but exceedingly weak unless charged, but interrupting
and damaging is all they really do.

 

[David Viran]

Why is everybody so quick to call out the next meta Knight already. People are already putting characters like Diddy in their own tier when brawls first tier list didn't even have meta Knight in his own tier.

 

[Asdioh]

Yes, sheik is fast, her projectile is fantastic, and moves like fair are absurdly safe on shield, but her lack of kill power keeps her in check compared to brawl mk. Her weakness when above characters keeps her in check compared to brawl mk. Her fallspeed allows her to be comboed more easily than brawl mk. She doesn't have tornado to invalidate characters. I really don't think she's as bad as you say. Just pick kirby, duck her needles, uptilt combo her to 40%+ whenever she gets near you, and win with your superior ko power. If you can copy her needles, great, you now camp better than she does and use needles better because of your height and multijumps. Oh, and he still has the faster 1.0.3 needles, probably because developers forget about him.

Is it confirmed though that her f-air is disjointed? because screw that, no fair.

 

[Antonykun]

Is it confirmed though that her f-air is disjointed? because screw that, no f-air.

ftfy

 

[Shaya]

Fair isn't infallible. Yes, it's blindingly quick with surprising
range and combos insanely, but it doesn't do much to a shield
and actually has to be spaced correctly on the ground to avoid a punish.

I figured as much for spotdodging... unfortunately you're
more likely to see Bouncing Fishes when you're recovering,
where this doesn't apply.

IMO, needles are only scary when you're recovering
or you let them get to your head. It's fast and spammable,
but exceedingly weak unless charged, but interrupting
and damaging is all they really do.

Neither is tornado. It does a lot to a shield, it shield traps it. Her fair range is quite large and she has amazing aerial mobility, it's a lot easier to space it correctly than it would be in Brawl (which just doesn't happen, Sheik was shield grab fodder in Brawl and had bottom quarter aerial mobility).
Air dodging requires tighter timing and also spacing to be considered but can also work!

Needles are scary all the time :<

Why is everybody so quick to call out the next meta Knight already. People are already putting characters like Diddy in their own tier when brawls first tier list didn't even have meta Knight in his own tier.

The first tier list of Brawl was still a stage of the game where no one wanted to accept the fact MK was already taking 50% of tournament prize money (as shown by character rankings list) and it wasn't enough to warrant him being in his own tier because, "it's too early in the meta" (the only issue I have with "too early in the meta" is the hindsight bias half a decade later).

 

[David Viran]

Neither is tornado. It does a lot to a shield, it shield traps it. Her fair range is quite large and she has amazing aerial mobility, it's a lot easier to space it correctly than it would be in Brawl (which just doesn't happen, Sheik was shield grab fodder in Brawl and had bottom quarter aerial mobility).
Air dodging requires tighter timing and also spacing to be considered but can also work!

Needles are scary all the time :<



The first tier list of Brawl was still a stage of the game where no one wanted to accept the fact MK was already taking 50% of tournament prize money (as shown by character rankings list) and it wasn't enough to warrant him being in his own tier because, "it's too early in the meta" (the only issue I have with "too early in the meta" is the hindsight bias half a decade later).

Yeah I guess but sheik nor Diddy are taking 50 percent of tournaments right now.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Wario I feel does great against all the top tiers except for Shiek. I don't know if it's my lack of my experience or lack of having a sound strategy. She lacks kill power so I usually get 3 waft attempts vs her. I don't feel it's any worse than 6-4 in her favor where as Diddy I feel is 5-5 for wario. 6-4 MUs are very winnable and it comes down to strategy defense and player skill. What do you guys think?

 

[Shaya]

Yes, sheik is fast, her projectile is fantastic, and moves like fair are absurdly safe on shield, but her lack of kill power keeps her in check compared to brawl mk. Her weakness when above characters keeps her in check compared to brawl mk. Her fallspeed allows her to be comboed more easily than brawl mk. She doesn't have tornado to invalidate characters.

MK was a killer in the same way Sheik is, option coverage to a point at which this option that kills is guaranteed. I don't think of MK as a character of kill power whatsoever. MK above characters wasn't just free for him either. And no, MK was combo'd a lot harder than sheik is in this game, 0-50% or higher was free for practically every viable character and you aren't telling me you're reliably comboing sheik for any more damage than that with anyone bar Diddy or Luigi. I've been around top level MK in Brawl and top level Sheik for the MAJORITY of those game's life span, I hate pulling this card, but I eh, what would you rather hear "all is well, every character is amazing and you should definitely work your heart out with your Ganondorf or Doctor Mario, YOU GOT THIS" or the truth? It is a subjective truth mind you, but one I wouldn't nominally spout if I was the ONLY person feeling that way (within a group of people who are winning every event with those characters or dropping their mains of 2-3 months [chars people consider GOOD in this thread] for 1 day Diddy or Sheik with better results) . If cotton wool is the optimal choice here than all I can be is disappointed and keep my opinions (and the opinions of others) to myself or to facebook. The cycle of ignorance proliferates for another game, SCORE.

Also I don't believe the fair is intangible. But it retracts fast.

Yeah I guess but sheik nor Diddy are taking 50 percent of tournaments right now.

Sheik was the most dominant character prior to the patch, but we don't have people managing tournament result data in the same way it was in the past.
Knowing who has won just about every big tournament in America thus far since WiiU, Diddy making 50% of the money is not only possible, but it's likely more.

 

[David Viran]

MK was a killer in the same way Sheik is, option coverage to a point at which this option that kills is guaranteed. I don't think of MK as a character of kill power whatsoever. MK above characters wasn't just free for him either. And no, MK was combo'd a lot harder than sheik is in this game, 0-50% or higher was free for practically every viable character and you aren't telling me you're reliably comboing sheik for any more damage than that with anyone bar Diddy or Luigi. I've been around top level MK in Brawl and top level Sheik for the MAJORITY of those game's life span, I hate pulling this card, but I eh, what would you rather hear "all is well, this game is amazing and you should definitely work your heart out with your Ganondorf or Doctor Mario, YOU GOT THIS" or the truth? It is a subjective truth mind you, but one I wouldn't nominally spout if I was the ONLY person feeling that way (within a group of people who are winning every event with those characters or dropping their mains of 2-3 months [chars people here consider GOOD in this thread] for 1 day Diddy or Sheik with better results) . If cotton wool is the optimal choice here than all I can be is disappointed and keep my opinions (and the opinions of others you probably would care about) to myself or to facebook. The cycle of ignorance proliferates for another game, SCORE.

Also I don't believe the fair is intangible.



Sheik was the most dominant character prior to the patch, but we don't have people managing tournament result data in the same way it was in the past.
Knowing who has won just about every big tournament in America and Japan thus far since WiiU, Diddy making 50% of the money is not only possible, but it's likely more.

Sheik has never really been dominating in japan even prior to patch. Diddy in japan is probably actually winning alot but doesn't seem to be as bad here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy hasn't won more tourneys in Japan than ZSS did.

 

[David Viran]

Diddy hasn't won more tourneys in Japan than ZSS did.

You mean choco though because he's been tearing it up over there.

 

[Shaya]

That latest japanese tournament with Rain was 100+?
The vegas tournament was 208, ktar was 150? There were other 100 man tournaments in SoCal with Diddy winning as well (two or three?)

Have there been any WiiU tournaments larger than 100 people who hasn't been won by a diddy kong/ally/nairo/nakat yet?

 

[M15t3R E]

Hold your witch hunts for the next Meta Knight. The game is still very young. Also, as far as I can tell, there are no practically unwinnable match-ups like there were in Brawl.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It is a subjective truth mind you, but one I wouldn't nominally spout if I was the ONLY person feeling that way (within a group of people who are winning every event with those characters or dropping their mains of 2-3 months [chars people consider GOOD in this thread] for 1 day Diddy or Sheik with better results) .

This is basically why I dropped my aspirations to take this game super seriously anymore. I technically have a pocket Diddy already and I feel like the chars I play and wish to take to tourney pale in value and use compared to Diddy or even Sheik (who I think is better than Diddy for a lot of reasons). I'm sort of in that state where I'd rather give up and take my effort elsewhere because I don't feel VALUE in learning them just based on how much better I perform with these two characters alone.

IDK, maybe it'll change later but that's where I'm at right now. I feel you man. It was a fun ride pre-release when Dr. Mario got leaked and I was excited to play a cooler version of Mario and win stuff with him, that was a nice pre-release feeling, yeah :<.

But this feeling is probably gonna pass when I play again, it's just...man, it's so discouraging. I'll stick with my men but IDK how far I'll take em.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Meh, it isn't exactly like MK's 80:20ing or worse against everyone.

Hence why I said what I said, sarcastically.

Hold your witch hunts for the next Meta Knight. The game is still very young. Also, as far as I can tell, there are no practically unwinnable match-ups like there were in Brawl.

Also, what he said.

Smooth Criminal

 

[JWrecks]

That latest japanese tournament with Rain was 100+?
The vegas tournament was 208, ktar was 150? There were other 100 man tournaments in SoCal with Diddy winning as well (two or three?)

Have there been any WiiU tournaments larger than 100 people who hasn't been won by a diddy kong/ally/nairo/nakat yet?

I don't follow the tourney results very closely but even if that's the case all it means is a low execution character is doing well early in the games life cycle, I don't see this as a problem or something that really needs to be discussed unless it's to increase the knowledge for character MU's. The community has a serious sky is falling attitude to it rather then a productive " let's figure this **** out" attitude to it. I've seen people legitimately ask if diddy is getting banned, that's insanity.

Diddy is a good character and as he sits he has favorable MU's for the most part, but seriously if you judged his strengths by the way the community talks you'd think he was Ivan ooze levels of broken when in reality he just has a low skill ceiling and strong options for the most part, nothing he does is overwhelming and he has some legitimate weaknesses. Sadly everyone's too busy running around like chickens with they're heads chopped off too realize he's not even the best character in the game.

Btw 99% of that wasn't meant to be directed at you, the community as a whole more or so.

End rant.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That latest japanese tournament with Rain was 100+?
The vegas tournament was 208, ktar was 150? There were other 100 man tournaments in SoCal with Diddy winning as well (two or three?)

Have there been any WiiU tournaments larger than 100 people who hasn't been won by a diddy kong/ally/nairo/nakat yet?

Megafox road to tgc 2

 

[ChronoPenguin]

This is basically why I dropped my aspirations to take this game super seriously anymore. I technically have a pocket Diddy already and I feel like the chars I play and wish to take to tourney pale in value and use compared to Diddy or even Sheik (who I think is better than Diddy for a lot of reasons). I'm sort of in that state where I'd rather give up and take my effort elsewhere because I don't feel VALUE in learning them just based on how much better I perform with these two characters alone.

IDK, maybe it'll change later but that's where I'm at right now. I feel you man. It was a fun ride pre-release when Dr. Mario got leaked and I was excited to play a cooler version of Mario and win stuff with him, that was a nice pre-release feeling, yeah :<.

But this feeling is probably gonna pass when I play again, it's just...man, it's so discouraging. I'll stick with my men but IDK how far I'll take em.

Like we haven't done this song and dance through every Smash, and multiple pvp games.

When characters saturate meta, the characters that become competitive are those that can still exist in that saturation.
I don't see a problem. Figure out what the top threats are. Find out who are their contemporaries and see who are counter picks. If your character can't adapt, buckle up or change skins.

No point in even being discouraged at this point given the adaptations of thoughts that have occurred outside of Diddy,Rosaluma, Sheik from the 3ds days.
A lot of doubt was thrown on Luigi, he is now seen very positively. A lot of us felt good about Mario and went through the waltz with A2, Mario has been doing very well for himself.

I think most people here still aren't sure what the hell is going on with Jigglypuff.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think most people here still aren't sure what the hell is going on with Jigglypuff.

To be fair, I'm not sure Jigglypuff knows what's going on with Jigglypuff. I mean, her strongest move is triggered by falling asleep of all things.

Slightly more seriously I see Jigglypuff as sort of the antithesis of Little Mac. Amazing air game, no ground game worth mentioning, and a punish tool that must be respected. (I'm actually not sure if Jigglypuff's ground game is good or bad, but her air game is so amazing the point seems moot.)

 

[TTTTTsd]

Like we haven't done this song and dance through every Smash, and multiple pvp games.

When characters saturate meta, the characters that become competitive are those that can still exist in that saturation.
I don't see a problem. Figure out what the top threats are. Find out who are their contemporaries and see who are counter picks. If your character can't adapt, buckle up or change skins.

It just sucks when you can spend a good deal of time on something and then go to something else and almost immediately replicate those results in a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller timeframe. My issue isn't even saturation, it's stuff like that. I guess it exists in a lot of fighting games but it hits me harder here, honestly. Again, could be just how I feel now, but it is what it is.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If cotton wool is the optimal choice here than all I can be is disappointed and keep my opinions (and the opinions of others) to myself or to facebook. The cycle of ignorance proliferates for another game, SCORE.

Or we can just play the ****ing game and try to figure out counterplay, rather than wallowing in that kinda self-prophetic nonsense.

Honestly I'm beginning to hate coming to this part of the site because every single day I see people piss and moan about this. Nerf this, buff that, this character wins too much, etc. It's fine to note trends and whatnot, but for Christ's sake stop acting like it's the end of the world because a strong character exists in the meta right now.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ZHMT]

I've been a huge pusher of Jiggs being great, however most people don't understand how she works fully in this game and why she's so good. She has clear weaknesses like her weight, but still, her strengths are incredible and has arguably the best reliable kill power in the game. I can go on but she doesn't seem like a very popular character.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Or we can just play the ****ing game and try to figure out counterplay, rather than wallowing in that kinda self-prophetic nonsense.

Honestly I'm beginning to hate coming to this part of the site because every single day I see people piss and moan about this. Nerf this, buff that, this character wins too much, etc. It's fine to note trends and whatnot, but for Christ's sake stop acting like it's the end of the world because a strong character exists in the meta right now.

Smooth Criminal

I agree with this much, at least. I might be down about my characters but I'm all for promoting experimentation and doing stuff. My issues are "me" oriented and I'll get over them on my own. But I'm going to quote this and cite it because I agree with it.

 

[Morbi]

To be fair, I'm not sure Jigglypuff knows what's going on with Jigglypuff. I mean, her strongest move is triggered by falling asleep of all things.

Slightly more seriously I see Jigglypuff as sort of the antithesis of Little Mac. Amazing air game, no ground game worth mentioning, and a punish tool that must be respected. (I'm actually not sure if Jigglypuff's ground game is good or bad, but her air game is so amazing the point seems moot.)

I agree with this sentiment, I always interpret the two as the antithesis of each other and use them as secondaries given their nature as niche characters. They also get KO'd slightly earlier than most of the cast as she is the lightest in the game, and, as we all know, Little Mac has the recovery of cement blocks in water. Her ground game is slightly better in this game than past entries, but her strength obviously lies in her aerials.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I've been a huge pusher of Jiggs being great, however most people don't understand how she works fully in this game and why she's so good. She has clear weaknesses like her weight, but still, her strengths are incredible and has arguably the best reliable kill power in the game. I can go on but she doesn't seem like a very popular character.

I've been playing a lot of Puff lately, but I don't know as much or have nearly as much experience as you, so can you talk about her ground game a little? Personally, I think it's actually quite good given how nice DA, F Smash, Jab, and her throw game are (ik you've talked about it before here, but a lot of people don't realize how great her throws are), but like I said idk if even I should value my opinion on the subject.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I've been a huge pusher of Jiggs being great, however most people don't understand how she works fully in this game and why she's so good. She has clear weaknesses like her weight, but still, her strengths are incredible and has arguably the best reliable kill power in the game. I can go on but she doesn't seem like a very popular character.

I dont know what the deal is because her Back air is straight ********, and Rest is a dirty punish right now. Its hitbox also comes off a lot more forgiving then past iterations. I've barely touched puff since I prefer Kirby but her ground game hits hard as well, efficacy not noted as I haven't delved into that.


It's not just Jiggly either there's a lot of underrepresented characters that leave a lot up to presumption.
Not a lot of MK and Zard, but MK has tools after the patch.

It just sucks when you can spend a good deal of time on something and then go to something else and almost immediately replicate those results in a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller timeframe. My issue isn't even saturation, it's stuff like that. I guess it exists in a lot of fighting games but it hits me harder here, honestly. Again, could be just how I feel now, but it is what it is.

I play a Moba...Smite...and recently foolishly spent a lot of money on it.
You've got quite a few characters who perform the same role and some are just generally better at the other for it. Practicality is a strength. I still play my Ne Zha as much as Merc despite Merc performing the same role practically and more efficiently. Dude's fun. Actually I'm lying. My Ne Zha is a beast and I feel like a rapist using him in anything less then Ranked play because I can aim the skill shots and get past the key problem that shutdowns 80% of his playerbase.

Tl;dr: Something will probably click. You probably reached a temporary wall, and your fundamentals were transferring over to other characters (plus them being better).

 

[ZHMT]

To be fair, I'm not sure Jigglypuff knows what's going on with Jigglypuff. I mean, her strongest move is triggered by falling asleep of all things.

Slightly more seriously I see Jigglypuff as sort of the antithesis of Little Mac. Amazing air game, no ground game worth mentioning, and a punish tool that must be respected. (I'm actually not sure if Jigglypuff's ground game is good or bad, but her air game is so amazing the point seems moot.)

Her ground game is farrr better than it was in Brawl, I like to call it average. Her ground moves give up range and distance for damage, possible combos, and lingering hitboxes. Not to mention utilt is fairly safe if spaced well, and jab leads to followups. The duration of her grounded moves has decreased a lot from Brawl, about 5-7 frames each. One of her biggest issues in Brawl was that her tilts weren't safe on hit at low percents. Its still true in this game but far less so. Dtilt hits for 3 frames, 10-12 so you can hit people during the vunerable frame when they ledge snap and it'll send them at a very low angle and likely ko them. Otherwise dtilt is bad imo. Ftilt is safeish as the push prevents shield grabs and after they drop shield they at most can tilt you for it if they are frame perfect.

Her pummel damage is some of the highest in the game, and all her aerials are good to great. When people think of Puff they think of a gimmicky character that has rest but that is completely wrong. Rest is amazing and in my opinion one of the best moves in the game, however she doesn't even need it to be a complete character.

Weak hit of her fair combos into so much at such a large window including rest. Dair combos into rest, utilt and uair do, its not gimmicky by any means.

Her biggest strength is her mobility, and I think mobility is the key to success in this game.

Honestly, her biggest problems atm are dealing with Diddys Fair imo. That move does work vs Puff, I can generally play around it but that limits her potential a lot.

Tldr: Puff is a good character and not lower mid tier like I see in everyones lists they make.

 

[ZHMT]

I know this has been brought up before, but Puff vs the characters that people consider top characters (Sheik, Diddy, Rosaluma, ZSS, Fox, Mario?, not complete sure, it varies a bit.)

Puff does well vs all of these characters. Not going to say she's advantagous in any because that's up for debate, however none of these are bad. Diddy is kinda annoying but I think as people get better, it will be easier to DI his grabs and avoid bad situations as puff more and more. Sheik has even more trouble killing Puff than other characters due to her movement.I believe the matchup is even, and I know a ton of people who disagree but I'm just not seeing it any other way in practice.

Against ZSS, you can punish the fact she has a tether grab with rest easily and it really sways the matchup a lot. Her Up B can kill Puff really early but the setup into it isn't reliable against Jiggs so it trades off. You can also crouch under a lot of her attacks.

Rosaluma I don't have a lot of experience in and Fox seems weird <<, I've been utilted to uair before and died really early but I don't know how reliable it is, it only happened once. Maybe Fox has an advantage here but I don't know.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well it's going to be around 5 more days till I sit down and tell you what the masses are saying on characters again on /r/smashbros. I am curious to see where people have moved around a lot as I expect there will be a lot of movement. There will be a more accurate voting method this time too so it should be curious.

I don't think I've seen it in a while in here, so how has talks been about ?

I don't see him really being played anywhere or by anyone big that I've heard of. I pretty much just don't hear anything about him at all. What's up with him?

 

[David Viran]

I know this has been brought up before, but Puff vs the characters that people consider top characters (Sheik, Diddy, Rosaluma, ZSS, Fox, Mario?, not complete sure, it varies a bit.)

Puff does well vs all of these characters. Not going to say she's advantagous in any because that's up for debate, however none of these are bad. Diddy is kinda annoying but I think as people get better, it will be easier to DI his grabs and avoid bad situations as puff more and more. Sheik has even more trouble killing Puff than other characters due to her movement.I believe the matchup is even, and I know a ton of people who disagree but I'm just not seeing it any other way in practice.

Against ZSS, you can punish the fact she has a tether grab with rest easily and it really sways the matchup a lot. Her Up B can kill Puff really early but the setup into it isn't reliable against Jiggs so it trades off. You can also crouch under a lot of her attacks.

Rosaluma I don't have a lot of experience in and Fox seems weird <<, I've been utilted to uair before and died really early but I don't know how reliable it is, it only happened once. Maybe Fox has an advantage here but I don't know.

Your crazy if you think a zss will go for a risky grab when jiggly can duck under it and rest. Zss doesn't grab too much anyway.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario I feel does great against all the top tiers except for Shiek. I don't know if it's my lack of my experience or lack of having a sound strategy. She lacks kill power so I usually get 3 waft attempts vs her. I don't feel it's any worse than 6-4 in her favor where as Diddy I feel is 5-5 for wario. 6-4 MUs are very winnable and it comes down to strategy defense and player skill. What do you guys think?

Sheik is probably the hardest match up for Wario in my experience. It's incredibly hard to keep up with her, she's too mobile, and she can outspace us for days. Wario loves punishing but Sheik is safe as hell.

I think Sonic is completely even imo in comparison. Even if he's a lot more mobile Bite just straight up eats through nearly all of Sonic's tool on the ground, and getting Sonic in the air makes him a lot more managable. Sheik is a lot harder to pin down. I agree that it's probably 6-4 though, it's not unwinnable, just a matter of being patient. This is a matchup where Wario can live for days and take advantage of rage.

 

[JWrecks]

Well it's going to be around 5 more days till I sit down and tell you what the masses are saying on characters again on /r/smashbros. I am curious to see where people have moved around a lot as I expect there will be a lot of movement. There will be a more accurate voting method this time too so it should be curious.

I don't think I've seen it in a while in here, so how has talks been about ?

I don't see him really being played anywhere or by anyone big that I've heard of. I pretty much just don't hear anything about him at all. What's up with him?

MK has a two camps, the over nerfed and awful camp and the " he baits and punishes and air combos like a boss camp.

I think he's a higher end bottom of the pack character played optimally and he requires a lot of ability to play optimally now. He just doesn't put out damage anymore and it's kind of ridiculous, I know you can make him work still and I don't think he'll have a disproportionate amount of bad MU's ( because he does have decent options at all times ) but he feels like the amount of effort needed to win is rough, he's very matchup specific and you need to know how best to rack up hits after a punish. A non optimal punish on someone like sheik is still decent damage, non optimal punishes from MK can end up being only 4% damage. It's rough because he has the tools, but his numbers are just brutal.

 

[Kofu]

Like we haven't done this song and dance through every Smash, and multiple pvp games.

When characters saturate meta, the characters that become competitive are those that can still exist in that saturation.
I don't see a problem. Figure out what the top threats are. Find out who are their contemporaries and see who are counter picks. If your character can't adapt, buckle up or change skins.

No point in even being discouraged at this point given the adaptations of thoughts that have occurred outside of Diddy,Rosaluma, Sheik from the 3ds days.
A lot of doubt was thrown on Luigi, he is now seen very positively. A lot of us felt good about Mario and went through the waltz with A2, Mario has been doing very well for himself.

I think most people here still aren't sure what the hell is going on with Jigglypuff.

Late but
Jigglypuff is one of those characters that looks great on paper but hasn't seen results yet, at least partially because I don't think anyone has been dedicated to her yet. Her BAir is ridiculous and Pound gives her a a good mix-up with her aerials to decimate shields. I think her weight is going to be her biggest hindrance. She's the lightest character by a decent margin, and in a game with rage that's not a good thing.

 

[iVoltage]

charizard essay:



Charizard is probably the strangest heavyweight in smash. Floaty, high ground speed, slow air speed, and very unique tools and traits. Let me first discuss his incredible longevity:
Charizard is one of the few heavies blessed with amazing horizontal recovery AND vertical recovery. Did I mention he's a pain in the *** to gimp? Fly has super armor and Flare Blitz is super fast+does big damage. This is one of the factors playing into Charizard's amazing longevity. Lets get into the other reason he has amazing longevity:Super Armor. Rock Smash has Super Armor, does big damage, and can KO. However, the slow nature of the move demands precision and care, considering it has considerable endlag that can be easily punished if you aren't punishing a move yourself. This segways nicely into one of Charizard's other huge strength:an amazing punish game. Flare Blitz, Rock Smash, and FSmash are all amazing punish tools. Flare Blitz in particular allows Charizard to punish laggy moves from approximately 3/4th the length of FD, and it does amazing damage and has amazing kill power. Rock Smash allows Charizard to tank the damage from a move while dealing the same/more damage back. Charizard also has an AT called Sliding Rock Smash(basically cancel a jump with RS and flick the stick forward) which allows it to cover landings and whiffed moves. FSmash kills early, has huge damage, and has good reach. While it doesn't kill as early as other heavyweight FSmashes(King Dedede kills at 60%, same for Ganondorf and Bowser, DK kills at 70% sweetspotted), it is still serviceable as a punish.
Another one of Charizard's pros is his amazing defensive game. This is partly due to his great punish game, but Charizard has great defensive options. Flamethrower can cover landings, make space, and limit mobility options, therefore making it a good zoning tool. FAir covers a large space in front of Charizard, making it a good defensive tool along with Flamethrower, by making space. Charizard has a great OoS option in Fly, because it deals large damage and is a kill move.
Charizard also has good, safe, kill setups. Jab to Fly is a great setup, as is DTilt to Flare Blitz.

this s only volume 1, i'll make more when i feel like it

Charizard is surprisingly good this time around if you like the bait and punish type of play which he excels at. Why i think he isnt played more is because he is very repetitive. He has a few bread and butter moves that he uses frequently. Those being nair and jab for the most part. He has a bit of trouble with the faster characters like sheik and sonic, and the projectile spammers since he doesn't have one of his own and he is so big.

 

[dragontamer]

I'm not a Charizard player, but it seems like a lot of his attacks are beaten by just simply shielding.

A lot of his attacks have cooldown up the wazoo. Sure, if your opponent is attacking Charizard basically out prioritizes everyone (except Robin's wtf Levin Sword, which beats Flare Blitz's priority). So I generally sit tight, shield Charizard's attack and then punish him.

I'm unsure what Charizard's tools are to force me out of a defensive game.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm not a Charizard player, but it seems like a lot of his attacks are beaten by just simply shielding.

A lot of his attacks have cooldown up the wazoo. Sure, if your opponent is attacking Charizard basically out prioritizes everyone (except Robin's wtf Levin Sword, which beats Flare Blitz's priority). So I generally sit tight, shield Charizard's attack and then punish him.

I'm unsure what Charizard's tools are to force me out of a defensive game.

Charizard has a long range grab, one of the longest range if I remember correctly. Shielding is actually very risky because of said grab plus his dash game.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

wow...im gone a few days abd dis thread hit depression huh?

@ TTTTTsd Oh stop being so melodramatic ya big baby. Xd

On this whole shiek is god were all hopless to resist shtic.
really?
like come on people for whatever reason oggle this character because she feels good. thats right feels good. its part of her character design and clicks with many people so i expect strong opinions about her and they are well warented. but like serioulsy? one thing i can handle is an obstical what i cant handle is people just up and giving up.

Choose the charcter you like and stop acting like these SUPPOSED top tiers are insurmountable.

you know what happend when you put the work in?

you get ryo and his ike @san. (you too buddy)

you get( dk will )poping shieks and diddy alike.

you get nairo with robin and zelda and dpit

gunnire getting 2nd in i believe a 300 person tourny with ganon also ray kalm being bloody awsome.

Trela and charazard.

Ally running around with a previously pre detiermined average character aka mairo

results are there folks but it human nature to go all hyperbole on us.

And if you can't handle that? at least wait till the results from apex sheesh.

And with that, ~im on the road~

 

[ZHMT]

Late but
Jigglypuff is one of those characters that looks great on paper but hasn't seen results yet, at least partially because I don't think anyone has been dedicated to her yet. Her BAir is ridiculous and Pound gives her a a good mix-up with her aerials to decimate shields. I think her weight is going to be her biggest hindrance. She's the lightest character by a decent margin, and in a game with rage that's not a good thing.

The game is too young for results to be as accurate as they should be. The best players win because they are the best players right now, even if they use characters that aren't very good. People have been dedicated to her, they just aren't the players you hear about regularly. Sure, her weight is an issue, and rage doesn't help there. However if she was heavier she would likely be a broken character. Her weight helps balance the glass cannon type she is. Know who else was a glass cannon? Fox in Melee. Dying early really only matters a lot if its easy to land ko moves or kill throws. In Melee it was hard to grab a good Fox player. In Brawl, Marth had fthrow to dair chaingrabs on Falco and other characters which killed. But it was hard to grab a good Falco at that percent.

Speaking of the character not having representation, she's not an easy character to play. It's going to take more time for people to figure out everything she has to offer than the average character. 90% of my playtime goes into Jigglypuff. If a top player did this, more people would see how she works because of exposure and she would be jumped on. I'm calling it now, give it time.

Your crazy if you think a ZSS will go for a risky grab when jiggly can duck under it and rest. Zss doesn't grab too much anyway.

So she's just not going to grab? It's a tether grab, every grab is a risky grab. Characters with tether grabs have to risk more than others every time they try to grab. In order to beat one of the best defensive options in the game they need to take a risk. Sorry for the redundancy here but its intentional and its because I keep hearing people say how good X characters tether grab is. Once a character with a tether starts grabbing, I'm gaining advantage over time through conditioning. Her tether is probably the best tether as well, but it still has a similar issue with all of them.

 

[Mota]

wow...im gone a few days abd dis thread hit depression huh?

But this game is only playable with Diddy and Sheik

Things will change once people learn match ups and figure stuff out. Heck Brawl Snake fell from 2nd place after a few years to 6th.
Diddy and Sheik are nowhere near MK level, and even MK was beatable.

Honestly, some people had mario and luigi pegged as bottom 5. Olimar according to this thread is trash, but there's still high level players advancing with him. At least trying. The pits and villager were deemed mediocre and they're taking games off the "god" tiers. Just look at zucco and megaman, early impressions of megaman were wholly negative.

I'm thinking peach has a lot of potential against diddy. dat float

Get it together people.

 

[Kofu]

The game is too young for results to be as accurate as they should be. The best players win because they are the best players right now, even if they use characters that aren't very good. People have been dedicated to her, they just aren't the players you hear about regularly. Sure, her weight is an issue, and rage doesn't help there. However if she was heavier she would likely be a broken character. Her weight helps balance the glass cannon type she is. Know who else was a glass cannon? Fox in Melee. Dying early really only matters a lot if its easy to land ko moves or kill throws. In Melee it was hard to grab a good Fox player. In Brawl, Marth had fthrow to dair chaingrabs on Falco and other characters which killed. But it was hard to grab a good Falco at that percent.

Speaking of the character not having representation, she's not an easy character to play. It's going to take more time for people to figure out everything she has to offer than the average character. 90% of my playtime goes into Jigglypuff. If a top player did this, more people would see how she works because of exposure and she would be jumped on. I'm calling it now, give it time.

When I said that no one had been "dedicated to her yet" I mainly meant at a a top level, didn't mean to discredit you or other Puff mains. And I DO think she's a good character. Her extra jumps make it had to anticipate when she's actually going to come at you with an attack... or just float harmlessly away. And Rest is something to be respected, especially at higher percents. She has some of the best sex kick aerials in the game and her Jab leads into several things (grab and dash attack at least). Not really sure where I'd place her numerically on a tier list just because there are so many good characters. I just think you're going to have a hard time convincing top players to use her over characters that can apply similar pressure with aerials but who also have superior ground mobility and better long-range pressure. For an extreme example, what are the virtues of using Jigglypuff over Yoshi?

She falls under the category of characters who folks claimed to have potential but have no visible rep. That group also includes Pikachu, Peach, Pit, Palutena (I promise I didn't mean to make that alliterative), Duck Hunt, Falcon, and Shulk. I'm probably just not aware of some usages of these characters and wouldn't mind seeing some solid play with them.