Character Competitive Impressions

[JWrecks]

Considering that the strategical point of secondaries is to cover the disadvantageous matchups of your main, I would say that the only characters who don't need secondaries alongside them are ones who either have no bad matchups or whose only bad matchups are characters who have no bad matchups themselves. It's too early to say if there are any of those, but someone like Ness definitely isn't one of them because, while he's really good, I could see his recovery easily abused by characters such as Rosalina, Villager or anyone with a good counter. It's also hard to see Mega Man not getting some polarized matchups with his style of play. I do agree the others are pretty versatile though, but as said I think whether or not you need secondaries isn't about that in the end.

I agree with most of this post, but I wouldn't say any disadvantaged matchup, a 6-4 matchup is still very winnable by either side. I'm all for pocket characters to cover the odd 7-3 or 8-2 MU ( idk if anyone is calling any MU's 8-2 yet, though I could see it in this game ) otherwise I'd almost always say it's better to learn your slightly out of favor matchups with your main, unless you really have time to drop into learning a pocket character or are planning on just using him for one MU. Also tbh trying to put MU numbers on things is hard right now, they're never going to be set in stone but as this early there's still a ton to find with almost every character.

MU numbers are always weird to me anyway, when can you really say someone is playing X to the highest level? Half the characters in this game won't see a world class player main them anyway so it's hard to say we will ever see them at the highest level.

For instance I see a ton of charizard is garbage tier posts, do we have a top flight player repping charizard? If we do I feel stupid but I think out of all the heavies in this game he and Gannon come the closest to being a viable competitive pick, Gannon because rage and a punish or good read means death. Charizard because his recovery options are pretty damn good, he can punish things at an absurd distance with a move that can KO. He has good ability to gimp, like really good ability. I think people dislike him so much because optimally playing him is either bait and punish or just approaching with the same thing over and over, but he hits like a truck and if played smart can control space like crazy. Oh and disjointed moves are sweet sweet candy.

 

[iVoltage]

Just got bodied by a Bowser Jr player. Felt like I couldnt do anything as Pit/Dpit. Really surprised but yeah, nothing seemed to work when he was played optimally and did the right thing each time after reading me.

If you bait out one of his laggy moves (nearly every move) he is really easy to punish, and his recovery can be gimped if you don't get hit by either the explosion or hammer. I don't know what character you were playing though.

 

[JWrecks]

That is the same thing people said about Jax in MK9(he went on to be top 10). He has bad Mus yes, but I feel you can main and win with Mac. It will be hard, but I feel perfect pivoting will be a huge x factor for him.

Jax is a completely different character though, he was thought to be mediocre at the start of the game and then got buffed before a top tier player took him and started winning like crazy, then everyone realized oh boy buffing jax was stupid, also jax had no glaring weaknesses at any point in MK9's life span. He was always a monster once he started his offense and spent a majority of his time considered s tier by any real MK9 player.

Mac has a crippling weakness in his recovery and complete lack of options in certain game states, even with perfect pivots he is still very predictable, and he still loses a stock once he gets off stage. Comparing the two doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Locke 06]

But as expected, good luck trying to comeback from a stock deficit and your opponent decides to camp the upper platforms of Battlefield, Kongo Jungle or Duck Hunt.

Why must a stock deficit be necessary? With money on the line, I'll take to the upper platforms with any type of lead and force Mac to approach from the air. What is he supposed to do then? 1 fox laser and then to the top of battlefield. Can mac realistically win?

 

[Chuva]

Why must a stock deficit be necessary? With money on the line, I'll take to the upper platforms with any type of lead and force Mac to approach from the air. What is he supposed to do then? 1 fox laser and then to the top of battlefield. Can mac realistically win?

Because hyperbole is not always a good way to judge practical situations.

I understand your point, but realistically, what if the Mac player ban stages like Town and City or Battlefield? How did Fox find the opening for lasers in the first place? Couldn't Mac punish Fox's laser on reaction with his 1 frame dash attack coupled with his ground speed? What if you're trying to camp via the upper platforms and Mac manages to lands a few hits of a Rising Uppercut, thus leaving him in the % lead? Are you coming to get him on the ground where he wants you to be?

I said a "stock deficit" for emphasis, because it's definitely a lot harder to comeback from a stock than from %

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Jax is a completely different character though, he was thought to be mediocre at the start of the game and then got buffed before a top tier player took him and started winning like crazy, then everyone realized oh boy buffing jax was stupid, also jax had no glaring weaknesses at any point in MK9's life span. He was always a monster once he started his offense and spent a majority of his time considered s tier by any real MK9 player.

Mac has a crippling weakness in his recovery and complete lack of options in certain game states, even with perfect pivots he is still very predictable, and he still loses a stock once he gets off stage. Comparing the two doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I get what you are saying.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do people still consider Robin top 10? I should hope not, because that character is so far removed from top 10 it's not even funny. I'm starting to think that even top 20 is pushing it.

Me being you know..who I am and all and Fire Emblem characters being my thing, I am just not impressed with the Grandmaster of Disaster. Robin commits heavy to his/her projectile based footsie game. A reaction roll at mid range and boom, Robin is in trouble. Pokes are bad. Safe but bad due to range, speed and damage. You will not outfootsie another FE character with those buttons.

Marth and Lucina literally walk circles around Robin and Ike just completely outranges and overpowers Robin.

Also the recovery and the rapid jab. Ugh too easy to DI out of the jab and that recovery begs to get spiked. Why doesn't Robin grab the ledge with the first Elwind?! smh.

 

[Esquire]

A great example of a character that "needs" a secondary character is ROB. ROB has some fantastic match-ups in this game and can play a role that not a lot of other characters can boast in a long-range projectile specialist (that isn't bad). However, there are just certain characters that ROB really falters against, particularly Villager, the Spacies, and the Plumbers (although Doc is fairly manageable). Having a secondary character for someone like ROB is really crucial, as in optimal play, these match-ups are extremely hard for ROBs to come out on top unless they play the patience game in an unreal fashion. I personally also use Mii Brawler and Pit to help out in these areas, but interestingly, I also consider my Mii Brawler to be good enough to be used as a primary. So I tend to go back and forth between the two characters and use Pit if I'm struggling against, say, Villager or Mario.

So back to the original point, there are certain characters in this game that have really bad match-ups, so having a secondary is important for those mains. However, having something like a second main also gives you an extra leg up in case your first main is off for the day. So to me, second mains are characters you can go through a tournament with confidently while secondaries are characters you feel comfortable with in specific match-ups. Some characters are fine on their own, but there's definitely an advantage to expanding your options. Similar to what would happen if customs were allowed, where you would understand when and where to use specific moves. Only helps!

 

[Trifroze]

Robin could've been an excellent character, but:

- Her speed just isn't enough for efficient punishing or follow-ups
- Arcfire comes out too slow and has too much endlag, as a result you can literally jump over it on reaction and punish Robin for it in a lot of situations
- In addition when Arcfire hits, it can be DI'd out of far too easily by anyone not Bowser/Dedede/DK/Ganondorf/ROB considering how hard it is to connect it sometimes and how essential it is for her
- Grab has literally the worst reach/animation ratio in the game, although at least it comes out fast (I'm aware campers are supposed to have bad grab games for balance, but this goes a bit too far here considering the next point)
- Can be outzoned way too easily due to a lack of spammable projectile
- Slower than average, easily escapeable jab often as her only OoS option

Only a few flaws really, but to anyone playing her against mobile characters aka more than half the cast, it's quite frustrating. I've used her for about 700 matches, my second most used character at the moment. She has an excellent although situational command grab, amazing aerials, one of if not the most versatile neutral B projectiles in the game, and good options for gimping in nair, dair and up b spike, as well as fairly strong items for pressure. As such, if some of these flaws get balanced out she'll be good to really good. I think a lot of players misjudged her in the beginning because of Nairo being an amazing player along with the likes of Trela and Xzax. I'd rank her mid to lower mid tier right now.

E: Also points taken regarding secondaries, I was talking more about who benefits from them rather than who actually needs them so my bad.

 

[PokÉmblem]

King dedede is amazing in power and weight, his moves are also amazing and can easily combo into moves. I also wreck 4 glory with Dedede since almost no one knows how to fight him and I have tons of skill. Dedede has untouched potential and I have some strategies to play a good dedede if your interested.

 

[Conda]

If you bait out one of his laggy moves (nearly every move) he is really easy to punish, and his recovery can be gimped if you don't get hit by either the explosion or hammer. I don't know what character you were playing though.

I know bowser Jr very well, but thanks. I'm not asking for help persay, but stirring up discussion. It's very likely that Bowser Jr is much better than we anticipate.

A well played Bowser Jr has tools in many situations. I tried to do all you said, and succeeded, but it seems a Bowser Jr who sticks to certain options will be quicker and more safe than I had thought. He has big weaknesses, but you can ignore them by sticking to his quick moves. I've not seen a Bowser Jr played like this before really, and my Pit/Dpit couldn't do much. Pit/Dpit gets low reward per hit, so you have to do well momentum-wise. But Bowser Jr took hits and dished out chains of around 2-3 in return, due to how sluggish Pit/Dpit were. Or at least how I was playing them. I was surprised, is all.

 

[Thinkaman]

I have also been impressed by Bowser Jr. played effectively. I feel like he has a modest but noteworthy "jump" in effectiveness when his play overcomes this threshold and his oddball kit is brought together.

The cornerstone of Bowser Jr. is this: Disjoint never goes out of style.

Edit: Bowser Jr. does the Yoshi thing where he sort of gets abused by some stuff, only to go on a crazy chain-followup huge-damage spree second only to Ganondorf's. You blink and oh look, you took 60% somehow.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Regarding Robin's Arcfire, it's not much but the Fire Wall custom (Side 3) has faster startup at the cost of range and multihit. It also travels much further below Robin, so it doesn't auto-whiff above SH height.

Probably not enough to really address the core issue but something to think about I guess.

 

[Locke 06]

Because hyperbole is not always a good way to judge practical situations.

I understand your point, but realistically, what if the Mac player ban stages like Town and City or Battlefield? How did Fox find the opening for lasers in the first place? Couldn't Mac punish Fox's laser on reaction with his 1 frame dash attack coupled with his ground speed? What if you're trying to camp via the upper platforms and Mac manages to lands a few hits of a Rising Uppercut, thus leaving him in the % lead? Are you coming to get him on the ground where he wants you to be?

I said a "stock deficit" for emphasis, because it's definitely a lot harder to comeback from a stock than from %

While I understand that it might be taken as hyperbole... I really didn't mean it as hyperbole. It's a major issue with Mac competitively. Being on the ground isn't as much in his favor as being on those platforms is for Mac's opponent. A lot of competitive Mac fights are spent on the ground, and Mac doesn't always win those.

The issue is this: The risk/reward of Mac trying to damage an opponent on a platform that he can't hit using his ground moves is severely against him. However, in any situation where Mac is losing, he must try to damage the opponent before the timer runs out.

With any % lead (I used lasers because it's an example of a quick way to get a % lead from distance at the start of a match), Mac's opponent takes to the top platform in BF, KJ64 or Duck Hunt. Mac is forced to approach through the air or use his very poor sharking ability. Neither of these options are appealing or in Mac's favor. For mac to get any %, he has to work hard to outplay his opponent. His aerial kit outside of Nair (poor range) and specials will only net him 4-5% with no followups (poor reward). However, if he commits to an approach, his opponent has him in the air for air-air combat or ground-air combat giving them an even greater chance to extend their lead. If he overcommits, his opponent goes down to the ground and Mac has to somehow land with his opponent on the ground ready to juggle/trap his landing (great risk).

In any case, any % lead is devastating to Mac on these 3 stages. His platform pressure just isn't good since he can't shark with his ground moves on these stages and the platforms are always there. Maybe it's not unwinnable (although I personally think it is against a high level player), but having this strategy available makes every matchup out of Mac's favor. It's just too strong a strategy against the character.

Now, we'll get into stage bans. We'll use the apex stage list (in the spoiler). 2 strikes after a win, can't play on a stage that's already been played on.

Spoiler

Starter Stages
● Battlefield
● Final Destination
● Smashville

Counterpick Stages

● Castle Siege
● Delfino Plaza
● Duck Hunt
● Halberd
● Kongo Jungle 64
● Lylat Cruise
● Town & City
● Omega Stages*

• Situation 1: Game 1 will most likely go to SV (P2 strikes FD, Mac strikes BF). A normal match occurs without the idea of time outs.
• Situation 2: This occurs if Mac wins, he has the following stages he needs to ban with 2 strikes: Battlefield, Duck Hunt, KJ64. The match takes place on 1 of the 3 and Mac is at a severe disadvantage.
• Situation 3: This occurs after Mac loses, P2 strikes FD and Halberd. Of the stages left, Mac might be okay with T&C, Castle Siege, Lylat, or Delfino Plaza. However, CS' transformation 2 presents stalling problems as does Delfino's traveling layout 1 & 2 and T&C's high platforms. Lylat is probably his best bet, but the small stage and tricky ledges allow for easier gimps.

Feel free to correct me if I got anything wrong, as this is based mostly on theory with very little experience actually using this strategy. But if a lot of money was on the line and I was facing a Mac, this is what I'd do. With two people of equal skill, Mac seems to be at quite a disadvantage even without factoring in character matchups.

Now the big question: Can Mac players consistently succeed if their opponents resort to these strategies?

Maybe I should make a separate thread for this... but it is on topic, because it's an argument for Mac absolutely needing a secondary. Not for matchups, but for stages.

 

[Chuva]

While I understand that it might be taken as hyperbole... I really didn't mean it as hyperbole. It's a major issue with Mac competitively. Being on the ground isn't as much in his favor as being on those platforms is for Mac's opponent. A lot of competitive Mac fights are spent on the ground, and Mac doesn't always win those.

The issue is this: The risk/reward of Mac trying to damage an opponent on a platform that he can't hit using his ground moves is severely against him. However, in any situation where Mac is losing, he must try to damage the opponent before the timer runs out.

With any % lead (I used lasers because it's an example of a quick way to get a % lead from distance at the start of a match), Mac's opponent takes to the top platform in BF, KJ64 or Duck Hunt. Mac is forced to approach through the air or use his very poor sharking ability. Neither of these options are appealing or in Mac's favor. For mac to get any %, he has to work hard to outplay his opponent. His aerial kit outside of Nair (poor range) and specials will only net him 4-5% with no followups (poor reward). However, if he commits to an approach, his opponent has him in the air for air-air combat or ground-air combat giving them an even greater chance to extend their lead. If he overcommits, his opponent goes down to the ground and Mac has to somehow land with his opponent on the ground ready to juggle/trap his landing (great risk).

In any case, any % lead is devastating to Mac on these 3 stages. His platform pressure just isn't good since he can't shark with his ground moves on these stages and the platforms are always there. Maybe it's not unwinnable (although I personally think it is against a high level player), but having this strategy available makes every matchup out of Mac's favor. It's just too strong a strategy against the character.

Now, we'll get into stage bans. We'll use the apex stage list (in the spoiler). 2 strikes after a win, can't play on a stage that's already been played on.

Spoiler

Starter Stages
● Battlefield
● Final Destination
● Smashville

Counterpick Stages

● Castle Siege
● Delfino Plaza
● Duck Hunt
● Halberd
● Kongo Jungle 64
● Lylat Cruise
● Town & City
● Omega Stages*

• Situation 1: Game 1 will most likely go to SV (P2 strikes FD, Mac strikes BF). A normal match occurs without the idea of time outs.
• Situation 2: This occurs if Mac wins, he has the following stages he needs to ban with 2 strikes: Battlefield, Duck Hunt, KJ64. The match takes place on 1 of the 3 and Mac is at a severe disadvantage.
• Situation 3: This occurs after Mac loses, P2 strikes FD and Halberd. Of the stages left, Mac might be okay with T&C, Castle Siege, Lylat, or Delfino Plaza. However, CS' transformation 2 presents stalling problems as does Delfino's traveling layout 1 & 2 and T&C's high platforms. Lylat is probably his best bet, but the small stage and tricky ledges allow for easier gimps.

Feel free to correct me if I got anything wrong, as this is based mostly on theory with very little experience actually using this strategy. But if a lot of money was on the line and I was facing a Mac, this is what I'd do. With two people of equal skill, Mac seems to be at quite a disadvantage even without factoring in character matchups.

Now the big question: Can Mac players consistently succeed if their opponents resort to these strategies?

Maybe I should make a separate thread for this.

That's a pertinent question. Based on what I've already seen of Mac in tournaments, in a handful of them Mac didn't have such problem on stages like Battlefield and Prism Tower. However, said tournaments matches were mostly locals, where the dimension of competition (and reward) is not as big as a regional or a national and thus I assume players have a different approach. On transformation stages I recall that all Mac players did was just sit on the main platform and wait for the next favorable stage layout and that didn't really have a big impact on the clock given how Mac's matches already tends to end fast, for better or worse.

Who knows if problematic stalling could possibly be a regular occurrence in a major tournament like Apex? And wouldn't it affect more character than Mac? What about other characters who can also be lamed out, like Kirby and Ganondorf? (obviously not quite in the same way as Mac, but still considerably)

So far it's all hyphotesis, even if they're definitely a possibility. The number of quality Macs in competition has been shrinking, so it's hard to have a concrete analysis.

 

[HeroMystic]

What characters do you all think don't need a secondary or pocket alongside it?

I would argue every character doesn't need a secondary as every match-up seems to be "winnable", but it's definitely a good suggestion that they have secondaries to force the opponent to adapt to a new playstyle.

Some MU's are straight up bad though. Like, Samus vs Diddy is the closest thing to a "unwinnable" MU for Samus from my experience. In that case it's just better to have a pocket character.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I would argue every character doesn't need a secondary as every match-up seems to be "winnable", but it's definitely a good suggestion that they have secondaries to force the opponent to adapt to a new playstyle.

Some MU's are straight up bad though. Like, Samus vs Diddy is the closest thing to a "unwinnable" MU for Samus from my experience. In that case it's just better to have a pocket character.

it depends from my experience that mu is not terribad but thats simply because of charge shot threating. like its not in samuses favor but i di!effinitly feel samus has some tricks diddy gotta look about for. iv said this once ill say it again a ranges kill move. used to punish is scary. diddy for the life of him wont be pulling or throwing any bananas wiliiy nilly unless he want to give up the stock.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I know nothing about Palutena.

Yeah but can't you like speculate and ****? You seem to know your **** very well therefore want more info from you.

 

[deepseadiva]

Yessss people are recognizing the power of the eating utensils

 

[KlefkiHolder]

So I was messing around with a bunch of characters in training today. Eventually I got to Diddy. When I was playing around with Dair, I noticed it had a sourspot (one that is still strong). Then, against Mario, I noticed that I could follow up a sourspot stage spike with Up Air, so I tried it. However, there is one thing about this. The game recognized it as a true combo at around 60%, which surprised me. Then I went to see how far it goes, only to find out that it is counted as a combo until even past 150% on Mario before the dair!

It reminds me a lot of stomp knee, except on Diddy. Is this common knowledge?

 

[Shaya]

You can unfortunately tech it though

Meteor bounces have high amounts of hitstun.

 

[Mr.Poppa]

I haven't been looking at the Smash4 competitive other than VGBC's YouTube, anyone mind telling me why Diddys one of the stronger fighters this time round?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

You can unfortunately tech it though

Meteor bounces have high amounts of hitstun.

Is that really an unfortunate thing in this case though?

Diddy has more than what he needs after all Still, if they miss the tech its a free kill from well beyond kill percent, and it works well before too.

 

[Shaya]

I'm sure there's more than a few characters out there with meteor attacks they'd love to use in neutral/on stage more often for combo starters.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I'm sure there's more than a few characters out there with meteor attacks they'd love to use in neutral/on stage more often for combo starters.

Yeah I agree with you there. I was just making another "Diddy OP comment".

Ganon is one that would especially love it, as well as someone like Mario, or even DK. Still, in Melee, Falcon's Stomp is used as a combo starter a lot, but that also has a more forgiving startup and spike hitbox than something like Mario's Fair, and even then it gets teched a lot (which might not be terrible in this case given tech chases, but I won't get into that). It would be quite interesting if stage spikes couldn't be teched when your opponent starts on the stage.

 

[Asdioh]

Is that really an unfortunate thing in this case though?

Kirby's dair is an amazing combo starter! Unfortunately, it is extremely unsafe on shield, and if they miss the shield, it can be teched because it's a meteor. I feel like it will become even less viable once people get used to teching it, I haven't played against offline kirby enough to practice it myself though. Anyway, teching meteors while standing is really lame.

I haven't been looking at the Smash4 competitive other than VGBC's YouTube, anyone mind telling me why Diddys one of the stronger fighters this time round?

Upair is obscenely fast and strong.
Grab -> Dthrow combos into it and other aerials reliably.
He pressures grabs very well with his quick run speed and threat of monkey flip and dtilt pressure.
Banana is still good despite nerfs from brawl, and of course can combo into... grab.

 

[Mr.Poppa]

Kirby's dair is an amazing combo starter! Unfortunately, it is extremely unsafe on shield, and if they miss the shield, it can be teched because it's a meteor. I feel like it will become even less viable once people get used to teching it, I haven't played against offline kirby enough to practice it myself though. Anyway, teching meteors while standing is really lame.


Upair is obscenely fast and strong.
Grab -> Dthrow combos into it and other aerials reliably.
He pressures grabs very well with his quick run speed and threat of monkey flip and dtilt pressure.
Banana is still good despite nerfs from brawl, and of course can combo into... grab.

Oh geez, well thats lovely, thanks for for the response. He's not like MK broken though right?

 

[Asdioh]

Oh geez, well thats lovely, thanks for for the response. He's not like MK broken though right?

nope, nobody is. He's extremely strong but beatable. If his upair was nerfed I think he'd be perfectly acceptable.

 

[Shaya]

nope, nobody is.

->final spark()->FUSION DANCE-> Sakurai being really silly

Sheik finally took off her meta knight mask and stopped pretending she needed a physical sword when her legs do it better. Meta Knight was actually gerudo magic'd into looking like sheik for 6 years; suddenly it all makes sense.

Sheik likely 65:35's or worse 90% of the cast.

I had a conversation the other day with D1 and others about who's the best newcomer in this game. The conclusion was interesting "oh... not many are that good"; different to Brawl/Melee where newcomers were taking a lot of the spots. Sheik is probably the most re-worked veteran in the game though, so I guess the tradition kinda holds true.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Then let's ban Sheik!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Asdioh]

I main a crappy character like kirby and I don't mind fighting sheik compared to marth/yoshI/lucario and some others. Hell even Ganondorf is scarier than sheik sometimes, which is weird.to say after the cakewalk he was in brawl.

Sure sheik could use some nerfs, although she more likely needs power reassignment like I said in one of previous posts. Stronger smashes, nerfed oher stuff.

edit: most of the newcomers DO have super interesting kits at least. Mostly unique projectile and zoning games, although now there are more antI-projectile moves than ever.
talking about strong characters though, there's a common theme. Fast characters are generally the best, especially with a projectile. Fox: top/high tier in every game. Only held back in brawl by cheesy thingz that worked on him. Sheik: same thing, and held back in brawl by lack of ko power. Pikachu: same thing.
Kirby: only good in 64 because of the physics, fastest airspeed tied with jiggs I believe, and broken hitboxes (uptilt). Bad/mediocre in every other game due to lack of obviously broken stuff.

 

[Mr.Poppa]

->final spark()->FUSION DANCE-> Sakurai being really silly

Sheik finally took off her meta knight mask and stopped pretending she needed a physical sword when her legs do it better. Meta Knight was actually garudo magic'd into looking like sheik for 6 years; suddenly it all makes sense.

Sheik likely 65:35's or worse 90% of the cast.

Preety much, God bless Shiek. Who else is high up now? I plan on playing Marth for Smash4 but since there wont be a tier lkst for ages I imagine, whos up there?

 

[Shaya]

Well right now I probably prefer fighting Sheiks because low-level Pika can frustrate her play patterns a lot and she's a lot harder to play than Diddy Kong, you have to put in a lot of lab time and practise to become comfortable and consistent with her kill set ups, so just outliving them and then capitalising on lack of sheik patience can be very easy if you're a significantly better player.
But I'd rather be fighting ZeRo, M2K and Tyrant's Diddys than their Sheiks. Against diddy, you're losing the coin flip and taking a lot more than they do when they lose the coin flip (well it's more like a 60:40 coin or something, dash grab, dash to shield and fair mix ups are sufficient, anyone could pick up diddy right now and think about when to use those 3 actions and start winning sets), but when Sheik hits you, or your shield, or chooses not to actually fight you at all (because her camping is top 5 at worse and could easily be no.1) and there are quite literally ZERO options to do about it with just about everyone I just get a little sad. Sheik fair is -3 to -5 on block with near marth sword range and top tier aerial mobility.

A flaying around Sheik is hilarious, but that's just because they haven't learned to swim yet. Soon though.
A frustrating soon.

 

[Mr.Poppa]

I main a crappy character like kirby and I don't mind fighting sheik compared to marth/yoshI/lucario and some others. Hell even Ganondorf is scarier than sheik sometimes, which is weird.to say after the cakewalk he was in brawl.

Sure sheik could use some nerfs, although she more likely needs power reassignment like I said in one of previous posts. Stronger smashes, nerfed oher stuff.

edit: most of the newcomers DO have super interesting kits at least. Mostly unique projectile and zoning games, although now there are more antI-projectile moves than ever.
talking about strong characters though, there's a common theme. Fast characters are generally the best, especially with a projectile. Fox: top/high tier in every game. Only held back in brawl by cheesy thingz that worked on him. Sheik: same thing, and held back in brawl by lack of ko power. Pikachu: same thing.
Kirby: only good in 64 because of the physics, fastest airspeed tied with jiggs I believe, and broken hitboxes (uptilt). Bad/mediocre in every other game due to lack of obviously broken stuff.

So speed is key for being good then, from looking at some stuff, top is Sonic, Shiek, ZSS, Diddy who are all fastcin some aspect, but Yoshi has been seen to be good but I have no idea why now though.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I main a crappy character like kirby and I don't mind fighting sheik compared to marth/yoshI/lucario and some others. Hell even Ganondorf is scarier than sheik sometimes, which is weird.to say after the cakewalk he was in brawl.

Sure sheik could use some nerfs, although she more likely needs power reassignment like I said in one of previous posts. Stronger smashes, nerfed oher stuff.

edit: most of the newcomers DO have super interesting kits at least. Mostly unique projectile and zoning games, although now there are more antI-projectile moves than ever.
talking about strong characters though, there's a common theme. Fast characters are generally the best, especially with a projectile. Fox: top/high tier in every game. Only held back in brawl by cheesy thingz that worked on him. Sheik: same thing, and held back in brawl by lack of ko power. Pikachu: same thing.
Kirby: only good in 64 because of the physics, fastest airspeed tied with jiggs I believe, and broken hitboxes (uptilt). Bad/mediocre in every other game due to lack of obviously broken stuff.

Kirby vs Sheik isn't bad or at least has not shown itself to be. Her range isn't exploitative relative to him in a way that bothers him. He's also fairly quick on recovery outside of his specials.


@ Shaya aren't you generalizing on the newcomers?
Seems more like a half/half split to me in favor of them being good additions.
Shulk, Mega, Killager, Brawler, Pacman and Rosa are all solid in different respects.
Robin, Gunner, Junior, Paletuna - waver between being in that same bracket or being poor depending on who you're talking to
WFT, DHD, SF - Come off lackluster.

 

[Shaya]

Then let's ban Sheik!

Smooth Criminal

Meh, it isn't exactly like MK's 80:20ing or worse against everyone. But at the same time I'd say the characters who were doing better against MK in Brawl (40:60s or so) were primarily relying on "free" things like chain grabs or locks that would take anywhere between 50-80% of MK's stock guaranteed; then their camp games were heavily sufficient in keeping MK out/maintaining the lead. In this game, there is only one reliable character (at this time) who can throw game-given-free-stuff at Sheik in such a way that she can actually lose, this is only due to extremely skewed rewards for the opposing player.
So 65:35 or worse 90% of the cast is probably underselling it, I really don't see much difference between Brawl MK and S4 Sheik besides lack of planking and a lot less characters with tools to deal with that perfect design than ever before (good thing MK didn't have THE BEST PROJECTILE IN THE GAME or top-tier mobility specs in every single department).

-> only characters I see actually being competitive against her (i.e. Match ups ZeRo has played a lot and prefers to go Diddy Kong for). Could maybe see Jiggs, Peach, Pika, Yoshi or Brawler at the moment as well.

 

[meleebrawler]

Meh, it isn't exactly like MK's 80:20ing or worse against everyone. But at the same time I'd say the characters who were doing better against MK in Brawl (40:60s or so) were primarily relying on "free" things like chain grabs or locks that would take anywhere between 50-80% of MK's stock guaranteed; then their camp games were heavily sufficient in keeping MK out/maintaining the lead. In this game, there is only one reliable character (at this time) who can throw game-given-free-stuff at Sheik in such a way that she can actually lose, this is only due to extremely skewed rewards for the opposing player.
So 65:35 or worse 90% of the cast is probably underselling it, I really don't see much difference between Brawl MK and S4 Sheik besides lack of planking and a lot less characters with tools to deal with that perfect design than ever before (good thing MK didn't have THE BEST PROJECTILE IN THE GAME or top-tier mobility specs in every single department).

Well, she doesn't have a button that lets her ignore
all attacks while surrounded by a hitbox that pressures
shields.

Only thing that truly bugs me about Sheik is her Bouncing Fish
which is almost too strong knockback-wise for how fast and how
difficult it is to punish. The only time she's even remotely open
in that move is after a ground whiff. You block it, she bounces away
and can even cancel the hit recovery with another.

 

[Yonder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ7Ehn0RQ_I

Near the beginning, Zero lists his top 1-7, which he says is 1. : 2. : 3. : 4.N/A 5. ::/:: 6. N/A 7. ::/:

Thoughts? I personally only agree with Sheik being #1, who I honestly think is better than Diddy Kong by a tiny bit.

 

[Shaya]

Well, she doesn't have a button that lets her ignore
all attacks while surrounded by a hitbox that pressures
shields.

Only thing that truly bugs me about Sheik is her Bouncing Fish
which is almost too strong knockback-wise for how fast and how
difficult it is to punish. The only time she's even remotely open
in that move is after a ground whiff. You block it, she bounces away
and can even cancel the hit recovery with another.

It's called needles and forward airing. I agree that Tornado was a spammable win button that Sheik doesn't have at face value.

Spot dodge the bouncing fish and it'll lag whiff rather than bouncing away. I think it's a similar level of reaction/timing required as dealing with Falco's Side-B in Brawl.

 

[Smog Frog]

charizard essay:



Charizard is probably the strangest heavyweight in smash. Floaty, high ground speed, slow air speed, and very unique tools and traits. Let me first discuss his incredible longevity:
Charizard is one of the few heavies blessed with amazing horizontal recovery AND vertical recovery. Did I mention he's a pain in the ass to gimp? Fly has super armor and Flare Blitz is super fast+does big damage. This is one of the factors playing into Charizard's amazing longevity. Lets get into the other reason he has amazing longevity:Super Armor. Rock Smash has Super Armor, does big damage, and can KO. However, the slow nature of the move demands precision and care, considering it has considerable endlag that can be easily punished if you aren't punishing a move yourself. This segways nicely into one of Charizard's other huge strength:an amazing punish game. Flare Blitz, Rock Smash, and FSmash are all amazing punish tools. Flare Blitz in particular allows Charizard to punish laggy moves from approximately 3/4th the length of FD, and it does amazing damage and has amazing kill power. Rock Smash allows Charizard to tank the damage from a move while dealing the same/more damage back. Charizard also has an AT called Sliding Rock Smash(basically cancel a jump with RS and flick the stick forward) which allows it to cover landings and whiffed moves. FSmash kills early, has huge damage, and has good reach. While it doesn't kill as early as other heavyweight FSmashes(King Dedede kills at 60%, same for Ganondorf and Bowser, DK kills at 70% sweetspotted), it is still serviceable as a punish.
Another one of Charizard's pros is his amazing defensive game. This is partly due to his great punish game, but Charizard has great defensive options. Flamethrower can cover landings, make space, and limit mobility options, therefore making it a good zoning tool. FAir covers a large space in front of Charizard, making it a good defensive tool along with Flamethrower, by making space. Charizard has a great OoS option in Fly, because it deals large damage and is a kill move.
Charizard also has good, safe, kill setups. Jab to Fly is a great setup, as is DTilt to Flare Blitz.

this s only volume 1, i'll make more when i feel like it