Character Competitive Impressions

[Asdioh]

Diddy has no weakness? Sneeze at him off stage and he dies. Banana+pop gun loses to most projectiles. Poor airspeed outside of side-B. Diddy is far from perfect.

I would agree but his strengths overshadow these weaknesses too easily. For example, when I'm playing against Diddy, getting him above me is the ideal situation, because he's weak there and easy to juggle. He has poor airspeed, as you said, and no real good options to attack people coming from below. However, he more than covers up for these weaknesses thanks to Monkey Flip and B-reverse Popgun letting him go wherever the hell he wants, and I have no hope of catching up (exception being if I'm playing a specific character able to chase extremely fast)
Monkey Flip also covers hugely for his recovery weakness. Most of the time in this game when people try to recover, they won't be forced to go down low enough for his UpB to be a real weakness.

No... His recovery is a weakness. Falcon lacking projectiles is a weakness. When you can exploit something, it's a weakness. When you have Diddy the air and can weave in and out to bait an aerial/side-B while he can't, that's exploiting a weakness. An imperfection is like how Diddy's jab isn't great or the popgun is not a great projectile. They are average/serviceable but not great or exploitable. Diddy's recovery is bad/exploitable and Captain's lack of projectile hurts him against characters that can slow him down since he is absolutely forced to approach anyone with a projectile.

Falcon can go high or low with 2 options of side-B and up-B, but you still call his recovery exploitable.

It's been brought up before, but Pit is more of a character with few weaknesses but non-overwhelming strengths.

Ok, I guess the original argument was "Diddy has no weaknesses" which I agree is false. His recovery IS a legitimate weakness. However, I think his strengths cover for these weaknesses more than well enough. That's the reason he's better than Pit.
(Also Falcon's recovery is legitimately awful)

I feel like Sheik having weak/unreliable kill moves is more of a legitimate weakness than any problems Diddy Kong has. Then again, if Sheik has anything I don't know about that is as strong of a KO option as Diddy's dthrow->upair, then never mind.

I'll have an aneurysm if we start seeing Kirbys throwing out final cutters because "X character doesnt have a projectile"

Go check out For Glory! Also I agree with your post and stuff.

Underwhelming to me is relative. Also Greninja's d-tilt is not a poke. It's a hit confirm tool.

He has terrible pokes in general. He's not that type of character.

I'm actually curious, what's the difference between the terms poke and hit-confirm tool?

 

[_Malal]

I pretty much agree except the bolded is untrue. Pretty much all of his moves have the same start-up as they did in brawl, and some of them might even be a frame or so slower. I'm not as sure about his end lag, but it feels pretty much unchanged except for aura sphere, which feels like it has more end lag than before. His smashes might be in the same boat, I'm not sure.

His IASA/Recovery Frames on Fsmash is defintely worse than Brawl.

Fair also has it's animation extended, but similiar (IASA), This is important because tricks like Full Hop Fair through the BF/SV platforms and then fast fall under do not work anymore.

It feels like his dair has more recovery in the air as well, but it might just be that he's affected by Gravity again sooner (SH Fair -> Dairx2/Dair-> Nair no longer work)

What this all means is that he commits harder when trying to get or set-up kills from Neutral State

I could buy its landing lag being better, but it feels the same to me

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm actually curious, what's the difference between the terms poke and hit-confirm tool?

Hit-confirm is when you land a hit and you're put into an advantageous state (ie, you grabbed, knocked the opponent in the air, or have them off stage).

A poke is when you're using a move to control space and look threatening to approach. Marth's D-tilt is a strong example of this.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How is a fast dtilt that, despite lacking much range, can combo into a KO move on a character with high mobility bad?
The problem with listing a counter as a kill move is that it's a counter, what? Yes, I know it's a counter. That doesn't negate the fact that it's one of the best vertical KO moves and with rage in effect, a good read (or on a projectile within range) can KO even earlier than the range I gave before. You're writing it off on just the basis that it's a counter as if that argument has any sort of merit. A move is a move.

Also, you keep bringing up Marth for some weird reason despite the fact that a number of people, even the Marth mains, seem to agree he's rather underwhelming in this iteration. Do you have some knowledge you'd like to share that makes Marth as solid a character as you claim?

Also, you're saying that his moves are too slow despite everything I just told you. I'm not even sure you're reading my posts anymore.

How is Marth not solid? He may not be as good as other versions but he's still a solid character. I believe Marth to be a good standard to measure chatacters. Because of his speed and his disjoints he's going to be solid. Then it also depends on your definition of solid. While I'm not suggesting Marth to be a great or good character just a solid one.

As for greninja you're not going to get far if you're lacking in spacing tools. That's an undeniable truth of smash. Being fast doesn't make you good. It doesn't even make you a solid character. If his grab was faster as with ftilt fair and nair he'd be a lot better character. Also if he was able to store eater shuriken charges. The dtilt to usmash is that a true combo? Let's say it works regardless of di does that make him s solid character?

You can think what you wish but I don't believe greninja is solid. I think he's rather lackluster with an overall slow moveset. But you can hold onto to your opinion I'm not going to be able to change your opinion. Anyways when some high level greninja play starts coming out tag me and rub it in my face about how awesome he is. Until then we can go our separate ways.

 

[Chuva]

From my experience in other fighting games, hit-confirm is when you hit a move which can possibly lead to safe combo or string. I assume it's the same with Smash?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Greninja takes actual effort to be good with. Why play him when Diddy and Sheik are two of the easiest chars to play in an overall easy game to play competitively?

Greninja is now suffering from what Marth suffered from in Brawl.

A strong character overshadowed by an even stronger character that is easy mode and that fills a similar niche

 

[ZHMT]

An example of hit confirming is as follows. Metaknights Ftilt is say for discussion, -18 on block on hit 1, -26 on hit 2 and -30 on hit 3. If you hit their shield with hit 1, you'd likely want to stop after hit 1 because doing more hits will put you at a further disadvantage if blocked. If they drop shield, you can likely do another hit and beat their, reaction time pending. You need to react to what your opponent does to hit confirm, hitlag aids in this.

This goes for Marth and Lucinas dancing blade, most jab combos, since you don't want to do the finishing part of a jab on someones shield, as well as other moves.

Hit confirming is not comboing either, it is simply something often used to aid the start of combos in traditional fighters. In example cr.lp > cr.lp and such.

 

[Kofu]

Greninja takes actual effort to be good with. Why play him when Diddy and Sheik are two of the easiest chars to play in an overall easy game to play competitively?

Greninja is now suffering from what Marth suffered from in Brawl.

A strong character overshadowed by an even stronger character that is easy mode and that fills a similar niche

I would agree with this. He obviously has things that make him unique (Hydro Pump, bouncing DAir, Shadow Sneak, Water Shuriken) but he is quite similar to Sheik who is much easier to use.

 

[Spirst]

Greninja takes actual effort to be good with. Why play him when Diddy and Sheik are two of the easiest chars to play in an overall easy game to play competitively?

Greninja is now suffering from what Marth suffered from in Brawl.

A strong character overshadowed by an even stronger character that is easy mode and that fills a similar niche

Yep, this is the issue exactly. Not a bad character but the effort required to play him will probably yield less results than playing one of the easier top characters who has similar functions. Doesn't discredit Greninja as a strong character on his own but unless you really like the character itself, there's not too much reason to use him as opposed to Diddy and Sheik.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

The guy who runs smash studios is claiming to have inside info on a upcoming Nintendo patch that could hit before apex that he said would shake up every character except Zelda. Has anyone heard of anything at all??

 

[Pyr]

The guy who runs smash studios is claiming to have inside info on a upcoming Nintendo patch that could hit before apex that he said would shake up every character except Zelda. Has anyone heard of anything at all??

I've decided, since the announcements on the future patching of the games (mistranslated/extrapolated), the whole "discontinuing amiibos and the GCN adapter a week into release, and all the other bull**** rumors, that I'ma wait until something actually happens instead of trying to prepare for it.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The guy who runs smash studios is claiming to have inside info on a upcoming Nintendo patch that could hit before apex that he said would shake up every character except Zelda. Has anyone heard of anything at all??

Sounds like someone is trolling. The Zelda boards are already pretty salty as is, and the thought of another balance patch without Zelda getting buffed would only make things worse.

 

[madworlder]

announcements on the future patching of the games (mistranslated/extrapolated)

Did Sakurai say anything more about patches since that Famitsu article? I read the article in Japanese and Sakurai clearly said he had no plans for patching after adding Mewtwo. It wouldn't surprise me at all for him to change his mind or contract himself. I also suppose that since Mewtwo hasn't been added, a game-changing patch could still be plausible.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hit-confirm is when you land a hit and you're put into an advantageous state (ie, you grabbed, knocked the opponent in the air, or have them off stage).

A poke is when you're using a move to control space and look threatening to approach. Marth's D-tilt is a strong example of this.

That's kinda what a hit confirm is but not exactly. A hit confirm allows your brain to register that you land a hit then allows you to combo their after. That's why you see people using jabd to convert combos even though it lowers the damage of the combo.

Unless his dtilt is safe on shield I'd question against using it as a hit confirm. Since you're likely to be punished. I know nair combos into dtilt but nair isn't safe . So you're kinda out in limbo I think inless dtilt is safe on shield.

 

[HFlash]

I've decided, since the announcements on the future patching of the games (mistranslated/extrapolated), the whole "discontinuing amiibos and the GCN adapter a week into release, and all the other bull**** rumors, that I'ma wait until something actually happens instead of trying to prepare for it.

Completely agree with you. Please take audacious claims like the patch before Apex with MANY grains of salt

 

[DanGR]

Then again, if Sheik has anything I don't know about that is as strong of a KO option as Diddy's dthrow->upair, then never mind.

Sheik has the same thing. Dthrow-> upair. If they don't have something to trade with the first hit of up-air, it's a 50:50 kill at upair kill percent. Airdodge or don't airdodge. What's it gonna be?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sheik has the same thing. Dthrow-> upair. If they don't have something to trade with the first hit of up-air, it's a 50:50 kill at upair kill percent. Airdodge or don't airdodge. What's it gonna be?

Jump.

 

[DanGR]

Jumping isn't fast enough to dodge the up-air, even with correct DI.
Depending on how fast a character's attacks are that reach below them, they might be able to trade hits.
Regardless of whether or not you have an attacking option, you can try airdodging the up-air, and hope they don't bait you.

If you airdodge/attack, then you die if Sheik baits it.
If you don't airdodge or attack, or you spam jump, then you die if she upairs.

Likewise,
If you airdodge/attack, then you live if Sheik attacks.
If you don't airdodge or attack, or you spam jump, then you live if Sheik tried baiting.

It's a 50:50.

If you want to test it yourself, it's dthrow-> dash forward-> double jump-> upair. If they don't DI away then you don't have to dash forward after the dthrow.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Is the US waiting till after Apex to make a tier list?

 

[HeroMystic]

Is the US waiting till after Apex to make a tier list?

Last I heard, that was the plan for Smashboards.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Ok so now that 2 stocks seems to be the thing how do people feel about Lucario and wario. Lucario obviously gets stronger and can ko at low percents and wario waft also can ko at low perfects and he lives for a long time. We all know Lucario is good but some people seem to think he's over rated and wario is considered average at best. Do these characters become more of a threat now with the current rules in place?

Personally I feel it makes them stronger in a 2 stock setting. I've been KOing people at 60% with waft edge guarding. Pretty nuts.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik dthrow -> uair doesn't kill **** in this game ... if it even hits in the first place. You can't compare it to Diddy's dthrow -> uair unless you've consumed a worrisome amount of illegal substances. Then you might be able to see them as similarly problematic. What makes Sheik dthrow actually dangerous are upB follow-ups because they actually kill and can't be dodged so easily. If you can dodge dthrow -> upB then you'll also dodge dthrow -> uair.

 

[Asdioh]

There have been times I've noticed the 50/50 upair/upB thing, but it seems to work especially well on floaty characters like kirby. After sheik's upair nerf though, her upair ko option does not feel very threatening compared to vanish/diddy. Same with greninja tbh. I'll try hitting her with a fast aerial next time one tries to upair me.

Ok so now that 2 stocks seems to be the thing

for apex*
don't forget that the majority of players want 3 stocks. 2 is fine for playing random people on wifi since it's wifi and who knows how their connection could be.
And it will make lucario pretty ridiculous. Maybe wario too but I haven't played many.

 

[Jabejazz]

DThrow > UAir on Sheik is both a really ineffective way to kill, and not even guaranteed in the slightest, let alone with rage.

 

[Funtroon]

Where is does Zelda stand in the current meta-game?

 

[PK Gaming]

It seems that most people agree that Wario is high tier but no one will say why. After playing (and Winning) a lot with Wario i have a theory to work with:

Wario is a jack of all trades who, instead of being average, is overall stronger then the rest of the cast.

While his mix-ups aren't as strong as Diddy it is still ridiculously strong. With the Bike, Wario has amazing recovery and this allows to edgeguard similarly to Shiek but he Koes in Percentages Shiek wishes she could get. Also Wario is ridiculously heavy combined with his Bike his survivability borders that of Yoshi. I haven't even talked about Wario Waft and how that makes his edgeguards so strong. Let's not forget about his great aerials and horizontal speed and how Chomp means he is almost unrivaled in the air.
Seriously though the biggest thing about Wario is that there is no Grab Release BS to artificially weaken him. Brawl Wario was already strong despite the Grab Release ruining his day.

Pretty much

The waft lets him potentially win any matchup too, if he gets it

 

[Antonykun]

Ok so now that 2 stocks seems to be the thing how do people feel about Lucario and wario. Lucario obviously gets stronger and can ko at low percents and wario waft also can ko at low perfects and he lives for a long time. We all know Lucario is good but some people seem to think he's over rated and wario is considered average at best. Do these characters become more of a threat now with the current rules in place?

Personally I feel it makes them stronger in a 2 stock setting. I've been KOing people at 60% with waft edge guarding. Pretty nuts.

Well first of all i still consider Wario to be strong its just I realized that nothing I say will convince you to think that he's not average.
Ok on to the real question. At first i thought that Wario is better in 3 stocks because he gets 2 wafts but then I realized that landing one Waft will give you such a huge momentum boost that any good player will ride it to victory. I think Lucario is weakened by two stocks because every stock he he has is an opportunity to snowball the opponent.

Greninja takes actual effort to be good with. Why play him when Diddy and Sheik are two of the easiest chars to play in an overall easy game to play competitively?

Greninja is now suffering from what Marth suffered from in Brawl.

A strong character overshadowed by an even stronger character that is easy mode and that fills a similar niche

I think has it even worse. In an ideal setting MK will never get hit and gimp everything with his D-air and stuff, but this is reality and MK has all of Sheik's problems and then some more. While I think that MK is strong in the right hands, I also feel like you need a degree in Harvard to even play the guy, let alone win with him.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Well first of all i still consider Wario to be strong its just I realized that nothing I say will convince you to think that he's not average.
Ok on to the real question. At first i thought that Wario is better in 3 stocks because he gets 2 wafts but then I realized that landing one Waft will give you such a huge momentum boost that any good player will ride it to victory. I think Lucario is weakened by two stocks because every stock he he has is an opportunity to snowball the opponent.



I think has it even worse. In an ideal setting MK will never get hit and gimp everything with his D-air and stuff, but this is reality and MK has all of Sheik's problems and then some more. While I think that MK is strong in the right hands, I also feel like you need a degree in Harvard to even play the guy, let alone win with him.

He gets more than 2 wafts. I use waft at a little over a minute to KO most of the time. It kills opponents at 70-80% health. I get 4-5 wafts a game. Plus ur not blinking so people don't see it coming. More lethal.

 

[PK Gaming]

No... His recovery is a weakness. Falcon lacking projectiles is a weakness. When you can exploit something, it's a weakness. When you have Diddy the air and can weave in and out to bait an aerial/side-B while he can't, that's exploiting a weakness. An imperfection is like how Diddy's jab isn't great or the popgun is not a great projectile. They are average/serviceable but not great or exploitable. Diddy's recovery is bad/exploitable and Captain's lack of projectile hurts him against characters that can slow him down since he is absolutely forced to approach anyone with a projectile.

Falcon can go high or low with 2 options of side-B and up-B, but you still call his recovery exploitable.

It's been brought up before, but Pit is more of a character with few weaknesses but non-overwhelming strengths.

Wrong on most accounts. Diddy's recovery is a weakness, but to not an extent where it's that much of an issue in the grand scheme of things. Your view is far too myopic; you think that Diddy's poor jab is really worth mentioning when the rest of his kit solid? And lack of projectile my ass; you don't need a projectile to deal with projectile users. I don't main Falcon, but I imagine his mobility lets him run circles around most prokectile users. It's just pointlessly reductive to shoot down valid complaints directed towards Diddy by saying "well his recovery is poor, so abuse that if yo want to win!" There was a character who dominated in spite of having a poor recovery in Brawl; his name was Olimar.

Pit has some obvious strengths. His spacing game is solid, his grab is fantastic and his rolls and spot dodge are top class. His main weakness is his awful damage per hit.

 

[FlareHabanero]

These so called problems with projectiles sounds like skill gate problems beginners go through for these type of games.

Zoning whether it's using long range normals or projectiles has holes that can be utilized to the users advantage, classic examples being exploiting the lag before or after a projectile is used or positioning yourself where you can avoid the projectile and move in simultaneously. The important thing though is to use your defensive options like shields in order to avoid being peppered with a barrage of weak attacks.

 

[Locke 06]

Wrong on most accounts. Diddy's recovery is a weakness, but to not an extent where it's that much of an issue in the grand scheme of things. Your view is far too myopic; you think that Diddy's poor jab is really worth mentioning when the rest of his kit solid? And lack of projectile my ***; you don't need a projectile to deal with projectile users. I don't main Falcon, but I imagine his mobility lets him run circles around most prokectile users. It's just pointlessly reductive to shoot down valid complaints directed towards Diddy by saying "well his recovery is poor, so abuse that if yo want to win!" There was a character who dominated in spite of having a poor recovery in Brawl; his name was Olimar.

Pit has some obvious strengths. His spacing game is solid, his grab is fantastic and his rolls and spot dodge are top class. His main weakness is his awful damage per hit.

When someone says Diddy has no weaknesses, I would like to disagree so that people stop seeing Diddy as some infallible godlike character. Since you say it's a weakness too, you seem to agree with me. We all know Diddy is strong, but to say he has no weaknesses is flat out untrue. I'm not saying he can't dominate (it's pretty clear that he can). Olimar/snake dominated with weaknesses. But acknowledging those weaknesses is important when looking at his strengths otherwise you risk hyperbole.

Having a projectile vs not having a projectile isn't about fighting projectile users or having trouble approaching. It's about having the option to exploit projectile weaknesses in characters like Ganondorf or Ike. It's about being forced to approach/put yourself in a position to be attacked 100% of the time you want to do damage. You can't force approaches unless you are in the lead.

This is an objective weakness, unless you call having some kind of projectile game to be a strength (which makes not having a projectile game average).

 

[Chuva]

In theory, Diddy's recovery is an exploitable weakness. In practice however there more variables to account for: Angle which Diddy is being KB, Monkey Flip options, Diddy's Fair walling you as you attempt to gimp...I'm not saying it's not an average recovery overall compared to other characters, but neither is it a simple matter of "hit him during UpB".

Even for Ness the same applies, with his long and flexible double-jump, his fast high-KB Nair and transcendent Fair: all of them being great at covering most recovery situations. I don't think we should use the power of their UpB as the only possible value to determine their recovery strength.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

When someone says Diddy has no weaknesses, I would like to disagree so that people stop seeing Diddy as some infallible godlike character. Since you say it's a weakness too, you seem to agree with me. We all know Diddy is strong, but to say he has no weaknesses is flat out untrue. I'm not saying he can't dominate (it's pretty clear that he can). Olimar/snake dominated with weaknesses. But acknowledging those weaknesses is important when looking at his strengths otherwise you risk hyperbole.

Having a projectile vs not having a projectile isn't about fighting projectile users or having trouble approaching. It's about having the option to exploit projectile weaknesses in characters like Ganondorf or Ike. It's about being forced to approach/put yourself in a position to be attacked 100% of the time you want to do damage. You can't force approaches unless you are in the lead.

This is an objective weakness, unless you call having some kind of projectile game to be a strength (which makes not having a projectile game average).

i personaly like obvious weakness its somthing i like to work around. kinda why i disliked when pm gave him a reflect it basically cleard his biggest issue. not a fan.

 

[PK Gaming]

When someone says Diddy has no weaknesses, I would like to disagree so that people stop seeing Diddy as some infallible godlike character. Since you say it's a weakness too, you seem to agree with me. We all know Diddy is strong, but to say he has no weaknesses is flat out untrue. I'm not saying he can't dominate (it's pretty clear that he can). Olimar/snake dominated with weaknesses. But acknowledging those weaknesses is important when looking at his strengths otherwise you risk hyperbole.

Diddy isn't some infallible god, but he's certainly not a reasonably balanced character either. The problem here is that you keep trying to shortchange him; people are right to call him out on his ridiculousness, even if there's some hyperbole. Acknowledging his weaknesses doesn't do jack all to change the situation; Diddy is by far and away the best character who also happens to be ridiculous.

Having a projectile vs not having a projectile isn't about fighting projectile users or having trouble approaching. It's about having the option to exploit projectile weaknesses in characters like Ganondorf or Ike. It's about being forced to approach/put yourself in a position to be attacked 100% of the time you want to do damage. You can't force approaches unless you are in the lead.

This is an objective weakness, unless you call having some kind of projectile game to be a strength (which makes not having a projectile game average).

Dude, you literally said that Falcon's lack of a projectile is an exploitable weakness. Following that logic, I guess Metaknight's lack of a projectile in Brawl was an exploitable weakness, or every character in an anime fighter who lacks a projectile has an exploitable weakness. I'm well aware of the fact that projectile users can force approaches (I main Robin for god sakes), but that doesn't mean they inherently have an advantage against characters who lack projectiles. It's not a simple binary. There are more factors at play here. Saying that Falcon's primary weakness is "lacks a projectile" is horribly, horribly myopic. He doesn't need one. His short range on the other hand? Now that's a valid weakness.

 

[HFlash]

Diddy is by far and away the best character who also happens to be ridiculous.

This is the SMASH 4 early meta in one sentence.

Saying that Falcon's primary weakness is "lacks a projectile" is horribly, horribly myopic. He doesn't need one. His short range on the other hand? Now that's a valid weakness.

A character having "a lack of projectiles" just gives them less options in the neutral game. Falcon like the other heavies in the game, have lack luster neutral games and because they can't just throw out attacks and hope they hit, have to try to bait out reactions and punish with dash attacks, dash grabs, SHFF uairs, and maybe SHFF nairs (those are pretty much everything Falcon can do safely). Characters have weaknesses, but if you play around them and use their safe options to rack up %, you will be fine. Projectiles are a much more obvious safe option because it's obvious that you just need to be far to make using a projectile safe, hence people are inclined to say that a lack of projectiles are a "weakness." Why does the Captain need to use his guns when he can use those amazing muscular legs to quickly close the distance and knee in the face?

 

[Jabejazz]

but that doesn't mean they inherently have an advantage against characters who lack projectiles.

No, but it's a weakness in the sense that you can abuse his lack of projectile by forcing an approach. Regardless of whether he can move around enemy projectiles easily or not, he is the one that has to play around them. His lack of projectile is not necessarily a crippling weakness by any means, but it's one, regardless of how you see it. As soon as you can abuse something, from a marginal to an impactful extent, it is a weakness.

 

[Locke 06]

In theory, Diddy's recovery is an exploitable weakness. In practice however there more variables to account for: Angle which Diddy is being KB, Monkey Flip options, Diddy's Fair walling you as you attempt to gimp...I'm not saying it's not an average recovery overall compared to other characters, but neither is it a simple matter of "hit him during UpB".

Even for Ness the same applies, with his long and flexible double-jump, his fast high-KB Nair and transcendent Fair: all of them being great at covering most recovery situations. I don't think we should use the power of their UpB as the only possible value to determine their recovery strength.

Definitely. 100% agree with you there. Monkey flip is good, but diddy's recovery is predictable in that up-B can't be used after monkey flip unless they double jump out of it. I really think this has gotten out of hand, as I was really just trying to call out the hyperbole that was, "Diddy has no weaknesses." Recovery strength is actually being "measured" or discussed in another thread.

Yes, I would say that brawl Mk not having a projectile was an exploitable weakness. It hurt him matchups like ganondorf and Ike where a character with a projectile game can play some sort of keep away. His overwhelming strength was enough to offset this weakness. This doesn't make that weakness disappear.

Being able to force approaches is AN advantage. This factors into a bunch of other advantage/disadvantages to figure out in general who has an advantage in certain matchups. I don't know enough about Robin vs Falcon, but I'm sure when discussing that matchup the Robin boards will say something like, "Well, he doesn't have a projectile so he's forced to approach us, while we can be more versatile."

Saying that Falcon's primary weakness is "lacks a projectile" is horribly, horribly myopic. He doesn't need one. His short range on the other hand? Now that's a valid weakness.

Primary weakness? This is where I think the misunderstanding is.

Edit: Can you imagine Brawl MK with something like Doc's pills? Ganondorf has to approach him and MK can react to the approach/meet him half way. He didn't need one, but give him any serviceable projectile and... Sheesh... nightmare in dreamland.

Edit 2: I'd replace his drill... but I also didn't follow Brawl competitively. I know that I rarely used that move as a casual player, and out of all the specials, it would be between the drill and the cape... and the cape works well to mixup landings (I think).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Edit: Can you imagine Brawl MK with something like Doc's pills? Ganondorf has to approach him and MK can react to the approach/meet him half way. He didn't need one, but give him any serviceable projectile and... Sheesh... nightmare in dreamland.

And what would we of been replacing in an already bloated kit?

 

[iVoltage]

Where is Zero suit samus atm? I've heard shes good but I haven't really seen her all that much.

 

[David Viran]

Where is Zero suit samus atm? I've heard shes good but I haven't really seen her all that much.

People try to make her sound more popular than she really is. Zss mains are kinda scarce and really only the absolute best zss's you will actually see at tournaments.