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I pretty much agree except the bolded is untrue. Pretty much all of his moves have the same start-up as they did in brawl, and some of them might even be a frame or so slower. I'm not as sure about his end lag, but it feels pretty much unchanged except for aura sphere, which feels like it has more end lag than before. His smashes might be in the same boat, I'm not sure.
No... His recovery is a weakness. Falcon lacking projectiles is a weakness. When you can exploit something, it's a weakness. When you have Diddy the air and can weave in and out to bait an aerial/side-B while he can't, that's exploiting a weakness. An imperfection is like how Diddy's jab isn't great or the popgun is not a great projectile. They are average/serviceable but not great or exploitable. Diddy's recovery is bad/exploitable and Captain's lack of projectile hurts him against characters that can slow him down since he is absolutely forced to approach anyone with a projectile.
why is d3 above charizard/ganon?After being around the game pretty heavily for about a month now, I'll post an educated guess on what I think the tier list might eventually look like, also as something to look back at later to see how accurate/inaccurate it was:
S:
A:
B:
C:
Diddy and Sheik deserve their own tier because they both have massive strengths with no real weaknesses. Sheik's KO power isn't that bad considering how deep offstage she can go and how safe up b seems to be in many situations.
Yoshi similarly has no exploitable weaknesses but his strengths aren't as overpowering as the former two, while Sonic has a terrible aerial acceleration and, while annoying, fairly punishable approach options. Rosalina on the other hand is pretty much helpless without Luma when its capitalized. ZSS, Ness, Pikachu and Fox all have solid setups and projectiles that won't go away no matter how much the metagame develops, making them solid picks for characters as well, with some quirks to balance them out such as Ness' bad recovery or exceptionally light weight for the other three. This is where I'd draw the line if A tier was divided into A+ and A-, because this is where characters start to have more apparent weaknesses.
Villager is definitely A tier, and the only reason he's not considered better more widely is because of a lack of representation at tournaments (Salem or somebody pls change this). He has limited close combat options but in my opinion the most dynamic projectiles in the game and a strong offstage game with his great aerials and recovery. Lucario mains seem to be focusing on his nerfs while everyone else is focusing on what aura can do at its best. Disregarding both, I think he's comparable to how he was in Brawl compared to the rest of the cast. The focus moved slightly more into keeping him alive at high %s, and he lost some reach while gaining speed on his moves. Falcon has a bit of under-representation as well despite good players occasionally picking him, but once someone really focuses on him and puts his mobility and 50:50 traps as well as true combo Knee setups to good use people will see just why he really is so solid. He has an exploitable recovery, but he also has something where other high speed characters are lacking which is strong kill power.
I'm just assuming Dark Pit and Pit will eventually have similar effective capabilities despite their attributes being tuned somewhat differently. Mario is an all-around good character with solid throw setups, while Luigi has awkward movement and aerial speed, but is a killing machine once he gets in with his throw setups, smashes and even up b. I feel like he's a Mario with more extreme pros and cons and no cape. Mega Man is probably the second best zoner in the game with better close-combat options than Villager thanks to his fair, bair and especially a solid grab. Wario is someone I haven't seen as much as I'd like, but he doesn't seem to have any considerable weaknesses and his overall aerial mobility is arguably the best in the game, as is his height/weight ratio. Rage also helps him more than anyone else in this tier, Falcon being 2nd in that and Ness/Mario/Luigi 3rd.
B tier I'm the most uncertain of compared to the other tiers. I basically drew the line where the seriously good grab games and setups end or where more considerable weaknesses begin. Aside from Diddy and Sheik, I think these characters can still easily compete with A tier, but just aren't quite as solid overall. I'm the most uncertain of Greninja, Peach, Pac-Man and Bowser Jr. in this category, but I have the perception that the first three are at least good, DHD is decent and Bowser Jr. isn't terrible. Meta Knight, Olimar, TL, Marth and Falco got nerfed quite hard and partially because of that are being slightly slept on. They aren't that bad. Rage helps Bowser, Dedede, DK and Ike a ton, but big frames and/or slow speed are very fundamental weaknesses, although Bowser moves really fast (and as a side note has great OoS option in up b), hence having the highest viability out of those. I feel like they gave Robin slightly too much weaknesses to balance out his/her strengths. A slow running speed, limited close-combat options and a short (although quick) grab aren't a good combination. I'm kinda still feeling out Shulk, but the control the player is given with him shows potential. He has slow attacks but a lot of range and some good autocancels to complement it.
C tier is where huge weaknesses or overall mediocrity begins, but they can still have plenty of good match-ups vs all of the higher tiers. Mac still seems decent for now, but this is one case I feel will change once people start to truly capitalize on his non-existent recovery and aerial options. He still has pretty much the best ground game of course, but that won't help him half the time. Ganondorf strikes the hardest hits in the game, but it doesn't matter in the match-ups where he simply can't get in. These two are above the rest because they have these niches, and the rest are basically the "mediocre" part.
I would be happy to do this. I am well aware that many of my opinions are going to spark some debate and backlash throughout this post, and I will respond to them in kind. Let's just try to keep it classy. Also be aware this is not a list of Charizards favorable MUs, as characters low on a tier list can end up being counters to high tiered characters.
Agreed, after patch 1.04 came out I thought greninja was done for. However, after getting used to the changes he's only slightly worse, and I believe that he is still at least top 15 in the game.
My guess is that it's because he probably has more matchups in his favor than those two, and said matchups tend to be easier than Charizard/Ganon's. I do think D3 is a bit less viable as a main than those two because he has harder counters, especially in a customs legal environment, but he still wins against a decent percentage of the cast.
Charizards worse than bowser, wario, packman,meta knight, mario, greninja, jigglypuff, luigi, and peach. All of those characters are drastically better than charizard.
care to explain? Unless you would like me to go first, in which case you'll have to wait cause I'm about to eat dinner.
At least his bair, uair and dair have considerably less ending lag. I checked from the frame data I have.
Then we disagree on the viability of Diddy's recovery and the meaning of the word weakness. Being able to bait Diddy to make mistakes during his recovery doesn't matter because that's interaction between players. Diddy as a character has the tools to cover his recovery and make choices many others can't, and the range of his recovery tools combined isn't bad. It's the norm to have a recovery that can be gimped, not an exception, hence Diddy has an average one.
This is an irrelevant comparison because his side b has short range and sends him into a freefall. Diddy's doesn't.
I'm willing to agree with this. Even with the nerfed air mobility compared to Brawl, he's still incredibly maneuverable in the air, and in this game that's an incredible thing to have. (And now I understand why he doesn't have his Brawl air mobility anymore) He can sweep in and out as much as he wants to, especially with how fast his FAir is, and he particularly shines off stage.
Wario is average at best. He beats some top tiers and loses to some. He has slower air speed than yoshi and still no range or probecile( tho u can use his bike as one or use it to close the gap on the opponent). Also wario waft is scary but that's all it is if you don't use it properly or miss this is where wario reall struggles. He can't kill for crap. They nerf to his upair really hurt and his new smash is so terrible and has so much end lag it's to risky to do. ftilt has some killing power but not enough. His approach options are quite limited to sh Fair or bike like up. He's he's just average in a game where there is some killer good characters. I'd say he might be 20th or so in he game. I can't see him ever moving to top 10 or 15. Any other takers?
I'll point out the logic flaw in this first sentence and then put aside the "weakness" discussion.
Weaving in and out isn't so much for during recovery, it's for on stage aerial combat. In air-air combat, Diddy loses to most characters because of this. It's an interaction between players, but Diddy as a character has less/worse options in air-air combat than most because of his poor airspeed. He doesn't have the option to bait characters by weaving, he has to commit.
But why would I play a character who "owns" the air like wario is supposed to when I can play yoshi who our classes wario with his air moves, has a air projectile and can kill better than wario. See my point. Also yoshi has less bad MUs. wario is trash.
On Dark Pit:
Wii Fit Trainer's only low-tier because of her trouble against short characters. It's very easy for her to beat larger characters. She can hit Lizardon very easily with most of her boxes, and will completely dominate him in the air. He's easily grounded by her jab string due to his weight. The only real threat to WFT I can think of would be Rock Smash.
Huh, for some reason I didn't even think about that, but now that you mention it, that does seem right. It's hard for me to say based on feeling in the case of dair though, for obvious reasons.
Um Wario is way better offstage in both offense and defense. Unlike Yoshi, Wario doesn't have to eat a mix-up every time he recovers (granted Yoshi's probably going to make it back anyways but really good players will force a mix-up on him). Also Wario's B-air can kill around 110% with some rage so that's actually pretty good since most characters struggle to kill around 120% ish oh and we can't Wario Waft as a multi purpose tool.
Says... the Wario main? This is something I do not like, is "why play this character when another character does it better?" This should only apply to characters who are identical, because no character is the same. Why play Greninja when you can play Sheik? Maybe because they're different.
No its exactly what you are doing.
I mained wario in brawl and I have a fantastic wario in this game (Sonic yoshi and ness are who I use competitively). Wario will struggle competively he has weak OOS options. If bair or dair had less landing lag id be all about wario. But how does he get a character like sheik off of him? His dash is horrible as well. So ur telling me wario can compete with the character perceived as top tier? He also struggles agaisnt sword characters who can space well he can get in and bite is useless in a mu like that. U guys are over rating a mediocre character.
So, not having a projectile isn't a weakness? That's really all I'm arguing here.
... I'm saying
I think this is what many earlier post were trying to hint at. It's kind of amazing when you think about it, For the first time ever we can play as the characters we always wanted to without having to worry about them being unplayable.
This is a game where being a character specialist unless u play diddy or Shiek will do much. U almost have to have a secondary to cover bad MUs.
How bad are the worst MU's though? This has brought up multiple times in this thread and we can't seem to come up with an 8-2 matchup yet (also known as a +/-3?)
Nope.
Locke 06
is primarily a Mega Man player. In that respect, I can see where he's coming from, because Mega Man's projectile game is great for stuffing approaches, including those of Falcon and Sonic. It was discussed some pages ago, but Mega Man has the luxury to not consider the Sonic matchup to be frustrating. Mega Man shows how good projectiles can be for thwaring opponents without projectiles, even if they're among the fastest characters in the game.
ChronoPenguin
mentions, Kirby's Final Cutter technically counts as a projectile, but it's not the type of projectile that @
Locke 06
is probably thinking of when he argues that not having a projectile is a disadvantage.
She's top 10 imo with customs.
If Kirbys throw out final cutters, I'll join you in the hospital room. You're definitely right, in that just "having" a projectile doesn't mean anything. Charizard & Bowser "have projectiles" but I sure hope they're not spamming flamethrower/fire breath like Mario fireballs. I guess what I was trying to get at was something resembling a projectile game.
Looking over patch notes I don't see any changes to her Specials. So isn't Wrap still a great recovery and good get out of jail move? Doesn't Reflect still halt the opponent's momentum acting as a nuisance to them? Auto Reticle may not be all that great but it still has it's purpose against opponents that don't like to approach doesn't it?
Even so, you're both on an even ground regarding (the lack of) projectiles and you have the speed advantage. Even though Ganondorf is more dangerous within close range, you are essentially a projectile, being able to move back and forth at speeds he has a hard time punishing while you can punish him more easily. I still wouldn't consider the lack of a projectile a weakness, since speed is a tool that covers similar options and it transfers over against slow/big heavy hitters as well.
How is a fast dtilt that, despite lacking much range, can combo into a KO move on a character with high mobility bad?
Zelda: I'd have to disagree with Zelda having below average
