Character Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

Ganondorf has the hardest time in the game approaching because of his slow running and aerial speeds, big frame and a complete lack of projectiles or disjoints, but he's also the most dangerous character once he gets in due to decent frame data, decent range and godlike damage/KO power. In that sense many people are correct when they say he's mid tier, but the ones calling low tier are also right. It depends how you look at it; if you're going to main Ganondorf and only use him, he will have such polarized match-ups that he can't be considered anything but low tier. However if you're going to have a secondary or two or use him as one, I feel like he will have some fairly strong match-ups and definitely have his use in the metagame which ranks him at least a mid rank in usefulness. Hence I represent the Ganondorf Smash 4 flowchart:

Does your opponent have an above average projectile/ranged game?
-> Yes -> Choose a different character
-> No -> Spread evil

you're welcome

 

[Magic Pikachu]

Ganondorf is really underrepresented. I was very happy to see Ganondorf's improvments in smash 4.Ganondorf still has bad matchups but he recieved a big buff.

 

[Kofu]

zairs do strictly 4 percent now witch while not good is not to bad has well. this goes 4 all zairs and not just samus though.

My bad, I was just thinking about the times when she lands while using it, which cuts the damage short. It looks like it deals 3.5%/4% across multiple hits, which is indeed not bad.

 

[Captain Norris]

Ganondorf has the hardest time in the game approaching because of his slow running and aerial speeds, big frame and a complete lack of projectiles or disjoints, but he's also the most dangerous character once he gets in due to decent frame data, decent range and godlike damage/KO power. In that sense many people are correct when they say he's mid tier, but the ones calling low tier are also right. It depends how you look at it; if you're going to main Ganondorf and only use him, he will have such polarized match-ups that he can't be considered anything but low tier. However if you're going to have a secondary or two or use him as one, I feel like he will have some fairly strong match-ups and definitely have his use in the metagame which ranks him at least a mid rank in usefulness. Hence I represent the Ganondorf Smash 4 flowchart:

Does your opponent have an above average projectile/ranged game?
-> Yes -> Choose a different character
-> No -> Spread evil

you're welcome

Haha so true, especially when a player knows what he or she is doing.
Just check this guy out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozqfyDNJI60&list=PLmm1joZm6wUX5d70RpONLObrWnyeFUBqC&index=1
EDIT: Not the whole match, but parts of it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

zairs do strictly 4 percent now witch while not good is not to bad has well. this goes 4 all zairs and not just samus though.

ZSS' zair deals 3% raw with a 6% hitbox at max range. Samus' is 1%/3%, Link's 2%/4%, and Tink's does 4% everywhere. Samus and Link can combo their initial hit into the sweetspot if spaced correctly.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

ZSS' zair deals 3% raw with a 6% hitbox at max range. Samus' is 1%/3%, Link's 2%/4%, and Tink's does 4% everywhere. Samus and Link can combo their initial hit into the sweetspot if spaced correctly.

ah thank you for correcting me. i never like mis information to be spread.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS' zair deals 3% raw with a 6% hitbox at max range. Samus' is 1%/3%, Link's 2%/4%, and Tink's does 4% everywhere. Samus and Link can combo their initial hit into the sweetspot if spaced correctly.

Ahh so that explains it.

 

[Ffamran]

Can I introduce some subjects? Kirby and Meta Knight (and Palutena).

So, this is Poyo's Kirby. Watching Poyo is hilarious and it might be a skill gap, nervousness, etc., but Kirby does seem solid. Kirby might not be OP, but he can hold his own. Is it his air speed? Jigglypuff moves like a freaking balloon while Kirby seems to move more like a cloud - must be all that food he's been eating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y34hNZ-901g

This is Unkn0wn's Meta Knight and Palutena. Meta Knight seems like Little Mac's antithesis; great air game, okay ground game while Little Mac is great ground game, but horrible air game. I think Meta Knight's all right and he'd be better if his hit boxes weren't FUBAR'd. I mostly watched Meta Knight, so I don't have much on Palutena.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj0c1x0jVzs

So, what's your thoughts on Kirby, Meta Knight, and Palutena? It's probably the early metagame that's doing a lot to make some characters seem subpar.

 

[meleebrawler]

Perhaps the biggest thing against Meta Knight
in this meta is that Sheik exists, who has almost equivalent
damage on her moves and far more range.

He's better at juggling and more flexible in edgeguarding
with his multiple jumps and fast dash.

 

[Ffamran]

Perhaps the biggest thing against Meta Knight
in this meta is that Sheik exists, who has almost equivalent
damage on her moves and far more range.

He's better at juggling and more flexible in edgeguarding
with his multiple jumps and fast dash.

Not to mention his FUBAR'd hit boxes.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not to mention his FUBAR'd hit boxes.

Does FUBAR mean horribly nerfed? I kind of alluded to
his poor range when compared to Sheik.

He'll be using throws to start his juggles a lot.
The two main throws for this are his Fthrow and Dthrow,
which interestingly have almost the same trajectory.
Fthrow can be acted out of more quickly (lots of IASA frames),
but Dthrow does more damage.

Mach Tornado can be an interesting if somewhat risky
tool in juggling with its long duration serving to catch air dodges.

Drill Rush could probably be used to catch landings, but probably
won't be used for much else, especially with it's low damage.

Shuttle Loop is his main combo ender in the air, as well
as countering predictable sex kicks if aimed right.

Sex kicks in general cause havoc with Meta Knight's
juggle game so you'll have to watch your foe carefully.

If Meta Knight is in disadvantage, take advantage
of his multiple jumps and swift Dair to deter aggression
while looking for a safe way down, perhaps floating towards
the edge.

 

[Ffamran]

Does FUBAR mean horribly nerfed? I kind of alluded to
his poor range when compared to Sheik.

He'll be using throws to start his juggles a lot.
The two main throws for this are his Fthrow and Dthrow,
which interestingly have almost the same trajectory.
Fthrow can be acted out of more quickly (lots of IASA frames),
but Dthrow does more damage.

Mach Tornado can be an interesting if somewhat risky
tool in juggling with its long duration serving to catch air dodges.

Drill Rush could probably be used to catch landings, but probably
won't be used for much else, especially with it's low damage.

Shuttle Loop is his main combo ender in the air, as well
as countering predictable sex kicks if aimed right.

No, FUBAR basically means this: Urban Dictionary definition; it's military slang like SNAFU. Basically, from what people said, Meta Knight's hit boxes are messed up. If he throws an attack even though it's "shown" nothing happens so, like pre-1.04 patch where Link's claw of his clawshot had no hit box, but now apply that to most of Meta Knight's attacks. Yeah. It's much worse than his hit boxes in Brawl that were transcendent. At least with transcendent he could hit stuff even if it was broken, now he can't rely on visual cues to know what he's hitting. I don't know how much was changed since 1.04, but it is annoying to have weird hit boxes.

So, yes, Meta Knight's good, but there are things going against him like range which makes sense since he's short - he's basically a blue Kirby - and has a sword that's an equivalent to a dagger for human-sized characters. Granted, Meta Knight's air game is good. Hmm, some of this applies to Kirby as well since Kirby's range isn't that great either...

 

[meleebrawler]

No, FUBAR basically means this: Urban Dictionary definition; it's military slang like SNAFU. Basically, from what people said, Meta Knight's hit boxes are messed up. If he throws an attack even though it's "shown" nothing happens so, like pre-1.04 patch where Link's claw of his clawshot had no hit box, but now apply that to most of Meta Knight's attacks. Yeah. It's much worse than his hit boxes in Brawl that were transcendent. At least with transcendent he could hit stuff even if it was broken, now he can't rely on visual cues to know what he's hitting. I don't know how much was changed since 1.04, but it is annoying to have weird hit boxes.

So, yes, Meta Knight's good, but there are things going against him like range which makes sense since he's short - he's basically a blue Kirby - and has a sword that's an equivalent to a dagger for human-sized characters. Granted, Meta Knight's air game is good. Hmm, some of this applies to Kirby as well since Kirby's range isn't that great either...

Compared to Meta, Kirby is less mobile (far slower on the ground,
barely faster in the air), which compounded with his worse
dash attack and grab game makes it harder to approach.

Once he does, though, he can do some real damage.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik is:
Brawl Meta Knight frame data
80-90% of Sonic's mobility specs.
Swords for arms and legs during attacks.

Like seriously, Sheik's Up-B must be one of the most bogus moves I have ever seen (gotta love it as an out of shield option, reliable whiff punish, and is almost lagless ending; ZeRo has a dthrow set up with sheik that either gets the uair or the up-b... god bless dying off the top at 80% to it :< - this move frustrates me significantly more than brawl tornado right now [but i had an invincible oos option back then]). Throw in horizontal, b reversing, large window of attack shuttle loop that bounces off of shields/on hit so there is practically no punishment window and ...

yeah I don't know. Sheik really isn't fair at all, just all the love is on Diddy doing the snake; down throw ftilt for 33% and dthrow utilt/fsmash/DA at 100% for the stock easily and reliably (at the time) and the meta couldn't take it for two years. Meanwhile there's this ***** with no weaknesses and the best number specs of any character by far.

Only things I find "free win" about Diddy is down tilt and down throw, I practically view every single one of Sheik's moves in the same light. Good thing she's definitely on the balance radar still.

 

[Kofu]

Sheik is:
Brawl Meta Knight frame data
80-90% of Sonic's mobility specs.
Swords for arms and legs during attacks.

Like seriously, Sheik's Up-B must be one of the most bogus moves I have ever seen (gotta love it as an out of shield option, reliable whiff punish, and is almost lagless ending; ZeRo has a dthrow set up with sheik that either gets the uair or the up-b... god bless dying off the top at 80% to it :< - this move frustrates me significantly more than brawl tornado right now [but i had an invnicible oos option back then]). Throw in horizontal, b reversing, large window of attack shuttle loop that bounces off of shields/on hit so there is practically no punishment window and ...

yeah I don't know. Sheik really isn't fair at all, just all the love is on Diddy doing the snake; down throw ftilt for 33% and dthrow utilt/fsmash/DA at 100% for the stock easily and reliably (at the time) and the meta couldn't take it two years. Meanwhile there's this ***** with no weaknesses and the best number specs of any character by far.

Only things I find "free win" about Diddy is down tilt and down throw, I practically view every single one of Sheik's moves in the same light. Good thing she's definitely on the balance radar still.

Diddy has a command grab that he can convert into a normal attack, though, something that all other characters with a command grab would love to have. Imagine Bowser with Dash Slam with the ability to turn it into Dash Claw on a whim. Or Ganon with Flame Choke/Flame Chain, or Yoshi with Egg Lay/Lick. It's just an absurd option.

I do think Sheik is better, though. Attack speed is a critically important factor and Sheik has low startup and cooldown on almost all of her moves. Actually, for that matter, I'll put in a plug for Pikachu because he's got the same advantage on most characters. I haven't fought one that I've felt really uses Pikachu's tools in the best way possible, but there have been a few that have opened my eyes on what he can possibly do. For starters, his attack speed is really quick. He has a few longer moves than Sheik does but the cooldown is still really short. He's also better at controlling space and maneuvering with Thunder Jolts, Thunder, and Quick Attack. Sheik has Bouncing Fish, but it's a lot more restricted and punishable left on whiff.

Sheik can put better long-range pressure with Needles, but Thunder Jolt is superior for approaching and is overall more flexible. Pikachu also has slightly better KO power and a better recovery.

 

[Asdioh]

Sheik is:
Brawl Meta Knight frame data
80-90% of Sonic's mobility specs.
Swords for arms and legs during attacks.

Like seriously, Sheik's Up-B must be one of the most bogus moves I have ever seen (gotta love it as an out of shield option, reliable whiff punish, and is almost lagless ending; ZeRo has a dthrow set up with sheik that either gets the uair or the up-b... god bless dying off the top at 80% to it :< - this move frustrates me significantly more than brawl tornado right now [but i had an invnicible oos option back then]). Throw in horizontal, b reversing, large window of attack shuttle loop that bounces off of shields/on hit so there is practically no punishment window and ...

yeah I don't know. Sheik really isn't fair at all, just all the love is on Diddy doing the snake; down throw ftilt for 33% and dthrow utilt/fsmash/DA at 100% for the stock easily and reliably (at the time) and the meta couldn't take it two years. Meanwhile there's this ***** with no weaknesses and the best number specs of any character by far.

Only things I find "free win" about Diddy is down tilt and down throw, I practically view every single one of Sheik's moves in the same light. Good thing she's definitely on the balance radar still.

Please don't tell me Sheik has attacks that are disjointed/intangible/whatever you want to call it, I swear to george...

I agree that Sheik feels like an unfair character, but it's not as frustrating as it could be because she has so much trouble getting KOs. I find myself living to 150+ quite often, and that's as Kirby. I feel like she should have more power on her Fsmash and maybe Dsmash, but in return she should be nerfed in some of the areas you mentioned, namely UpB is WAY too good (it goes too far, the vanish is too strong, and the reappearance really doesn't need a hitbox, nerfs to any of these would be nice) and some landing lag on some of her moves like Fair would be nice. Unless feeling like "an unfair character that can't kill" is part of her intended design, which I kind of doubt.

And even if Diddy has only a few "free win" or OP moves (Upair should absolutely be included in there, it's easily the best upair in the game) that's really all you need. I still think Diddy's better because his shield threat is insane (bananas, grabs, monkey flip) and the reward he gets off of it and his ease of killing make him more reliable.

Can I introduce some subjects? Kirby and Meta Knight (and Palutena).

So, this is Poyo's Kirby. Watching Poyo is hilarious and it might be a skill gap, nervousness, etc., but Kirby does seem solid. Kirby might not be OP, but he can hold his own. Is it his air speed? Jigglypuff moves like a freaking balloon while Kirby seems to move more like a cloud - must be all that food he's been eating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y34hNZ-901g

I'm just gonna throw Mikekirby's Kirby in here, I was extremely impressed. The best I've seen in Smash4 thus far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIIs-MEPwz8&feature=player_detailpage#t=309
He almost took the first set of Grand Finals vs Jtails' Diddy Kong. Just watch how close game 5 is, and then realize that Kirby had an SD at 59% look at that ending... lol

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Lemme grab my popcorn first though.

http://smashboards.com/threads/robin-match-up-thread.384026/

There's likely going to be a near identical thread on the Robin boards eventually and we're working on stages.

 

[Genix]

I'd say Diddy is probably better than Sheik as well, mainly because of him having a command grab, bananas and down throw to up air being a 50/50 kill set-up at like 90&-100%

On a sidenote, what happened to Greninja? Haven't seen anyone repping him after the nerf, is he really unviable now? As far as i know the only major changes to him where cooldown increases on his up smash and water shuriken, so it shouldn't be that bad.

 

[Kofu]

IMO if Greninja is not top/high material now then he probably wasn't before, either. The nerfs he got, while unfortunate (USmash lag, Water Shuriken lag, can't cancel DAir with Shadow Sneak) aren't the end of the world, either. Personally I think he's still plenty viable and people are being a little overdramatic about how bad/ineffective he is. Sure, he has weaknesses, but he's still better than a large majority of the cast. Water Shuriken is still a fantastic projectile and his mobility is amazing. If anything people are probably comparing him to Sheik, and it you do that, you have to mention his far superior KO power.

My two cents.

 

[Funkermonster]

I keep hearing from some people that is a likely contender for high tier or even top 15 in this game. Maybe its just the rookies on For Glory and that I haven't seen many good Falcons, but can someone tell me what's so great about him? Because I'm not seein it.

 

[Lukingordex]

Greninja has 3 problems:

1-) The cooldown increase made greninja's combo and punish game less effective which is affecting him a lot.

2-) His neutral game consists of pressuring with water shuryken and spacing until the opponent misses and you finally get something.

3-) He's struggling when trying to get a kill a lot more now than before the nerf.

 

[Antonykun]

I keep hearing from some people that is a likely contender for high tier or even top 15 in this game. Maybe its just the rookies on For Glory and that I haven't seen many good Falcons, but can someone tell me what's so great about him? Because I'm not seein it.

A good Falcon gives me nightmares. Really Falcon is what you thought Little Mac would be fast, strong, and oh so aggressive. U-air is strong and causes juggles and can connect to knee so well. Speaking of knee, Falcon can kill at percentages other speedsters wish they could.
Really Falcon is really deserving of a potential top 15 spot.

 

[JWrecks]

I keep hearing from some people that is a likely contender for high tier or even top 15 in this game. Maybe its just the rookies on For Glory and that I haven't seen many good Falcons, but can someone tell me what's so great about him? Because I'm not seein it.

Great ground mobility, great perfect pivot distance. Really good throw game with a ridiculously long ranged dash grab.

Biggest thing I think is the find of Uair combos into knee combos that are afaik guaranteed up to 100% damage, which is kind of a huge deal, U air isn't the best approach but it's not bad.

He has really good tools and him being a heavier weight then he looks is actually a pretty big deal in this game.

 

[iVoltage]

Falcon is legit good, hes one of the fastest characters and has reliable chains/ combos. He also sports good kill power and the most badass neutral B. His major problem is getting around projectiles, but with practice he can dominate even those matchups.

 

[Captain Norris]

I keep hearing from some people that is a likely contender for high tier or even top 15 in this game. Maybe its just the rookies on For Glory and that I haven't seen many good Falcons, but can someone tell me what's so great about him? Because I'm not seein it.

Up air can true combo into Knee around 70 percent against many characters. that is a solid ko. Short hop Up airs and neutral airs are amazing, as well as a great edge guarding back air. If he had a decent projectile over down B, he would more than likely be as high as Diddy. Falcon is just really good over all, but still has weakness.
EDIT: Oh, and his dash grab is the best in the game hands down.

 

[Genix]

I feel like Falcon has some insane potential. As soon as people start implementing perfect pivot into their gameplay and figure out his combo game he is going to be serious threat. I haven't seen a lot of Falcons do good though, kind of wondering why that is.

 

[iVoltage]

I've seen some really good falcons, they are able to just Juggle > Knee with absolutely no problem and its amazing to watch a stock go by in a minute.

I want to ask everyone's opinion on mega man though. I think that he has some serious potential from what I've seen in tournaments and my own personal experience.

 

[JWrecks]

I've seen some really good falcons, they are able to just Juggle > Knee with absolutely no problem and its amazing to watch a stock go by in a minute.

I want to ask everyone's opinion on mega man though. I think that he has some serious potential from what I've seen in tournaments and my own personal experience.

Megaman is really legit if you ask me, I had a post a few pages back that got brushed over talking about some of the things he brings to the table.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Alot of Lucina talk.

Honestly she doesn't even make sense as a character. She seems to be easy mode Marth at first when in reality shes Marth for dudes that wanna play competitive Smash on Ultra super hard mode. She has to be ten steps ahead at all times and press a button only when it hits or she gets punished.

Lucina vs any speedster character shows you why those extra 2 frames of disadvantage really matter.

I still need to test if she can d-tilt trap reliably.

 

[Genix]

Megaman looks really decent, which might be the case because so many players are developing his metagame. Zucco, Ninjalink and iggy are just a handful of really good megamans. I'd say he is at least B Tier for sure.

Wait, so do marth and lucina actually have different frame data? I thought the tipper was the only thing differentiating them.

 

[Spirst]

Greninja is still a solid character overall and people ARE being overdramatic. The nerfs he got didn't somehow make him unviable but it did make him a little trickier to use. Greninja is also one of the only characters (don't know if any are left) who can cancel hitstun. Shadow sneak can cancel hitstun and punish moves like Mega Man dash attack, Sheik fsmash, DK up B and so on before they're able to do any other inputs. The back kick from shadow sneak is a good KO move on top of that which makes the particular punish a strong asset in his favor which is also added to the fact that shadow sneak now has less ending lag. His offstage game is pretty good with ledge drop bairs/hydro pump harassment and he can go relatively deep with his great recovery. Meanwhile, edgeguarding a Greninja is difficult because of his fast fall speed, good horizontal speed, and fast hydro pump recovery which can be angled in two ways for mixups. Not to mention he can shadow sneak to the stage as well and either reappear on the edge or on the stage itself. Fully charged water shuriken has transcendent priority and it's been found that substitute directed upwards, while situational, KOs earlier than sweetspotted usmash which was already pretty good numerically. Greninja doesn't have as big a problem getting KOs as people are led to believe. Hydro gimps are still a thing (albeit less effective), sweetspot usmash is still amazing, and fsmash isn't bad either for quick punishes. Also, his perfect pivot distance was 5/6 IIRC which is really good.

Greninja has 3 problems:

1-) The cooldown increase made greninja's combo and punish game less effective which is affecting him a lot.

2-) His neutral game consists of pressuring with water shuryken and spacing until the opponent misses and you finally get something.

3-) He's struggling when trying to get a kill a lot more now than before the nerf.

1. The cooldown is on the usmash/water shuriken and nothing else. Greninja still has a decent combo game with the uair spike, utilt, dtilt, and grab followups.
This combo thread from the Greninja boards has an exhaustive list of strings.

2. That's an oversimplification. He has a fast jab, a good projectile still, and amazing mobility. His fsmash works well for roll reads and he can easily make the opponent uncomfortable with his weaving ability. Nair approaches, while not amazing, are decent if not overdone. RAR bair is decent too and is safe on shield provided it isn't a tether grab.

3. He's not struggling too much. The back kick from the shadow sneak, upwards substitute, usmash, fsmash, hydro gimps, bairs offstage, and well placed fairs give him much better KO potential than say, Sheik.

So you have a character with a small hurtbox, not too shabby KO power, amazing mobility, a serviceable projectile, a good recovery, good offstage/gimp game, good grab followups, and quick punishes. Against him, he has a startup mediocre grab, KO power isn't amazing (but still not bad), medium-ish weight, OoS issues and some trouble with approaches (though can poke well). I think the former outweighs the latter here overall. I don't think Greninja is top 3 in the game but people are discrediting him way too much after 1.0.4.

 

[wm1026]

I think falcon will be at least high tier when it's all said and done with(just my opinion). His dash grab is crazy good and he can kill pretty early if done right. His back air scares me when I am around 100%. I am a yoshi main myself and other than shiek I find falcon to be one of the harder match ups for me. I think it's actually about even but it just seems more difficult for me. Mainly because of his ground speed coupled with that dash grab. Definitely a character to watch.

 

[madworlder]

S


A



B



All this talk of "too high, too low" bothers me enough to post this list. B is the lowest tier on the list to reflect the current balance- I don't think there's a single person in the thread who hasn't claimed that a given character is too low, so I have brought the bottom up. No real order within tiers. The best character right now is probably Diddy and the worst, honestly, seems to be Little Mac- especially considering the stages currently legal. Falcon, Lucario, Sonic, and Fox could potentially be moved to S, they're all very strong, but I don't believe them to be on the level of the S-tiers. I'm most unsure of my placement of Link, Kirby, and MK in A-tier, as I just haven't seen much of those characters in competitive. Many of the characters in B have other characters that simply outclass them in similar roles (Dr., Dark Pit, Lucina; zoning characters in B are generally outclassed by the ones in A). I considered placing Koopa Jr. in A, but I personally have not seen anything that character has to put him over B. He has loads of endlag on his kill moves, and his recovery is not particularly strong. Duck Hunt Dog also seems to be lower than most other lists, but he's extremely easy to gimp and his kill moves, while strong, are slow, narrow, and unreliable. Thinking into the future, endlag caused by landing on the stage with his up-B means the newly discovered stage snap vulnerability hits him hard. I've previously argued for Wii Fit Trainer being underrated, but B-tier seems acceptable for the amount of work she must put into matchups. The characters I feel least confident about placing in B are Zelda and Purin. I haven't seen enough of those characters competitively, either.

Sorry for posting a list when being uncertain about several characters- I just really want people to consider that bottom tier in this game is something entirely different than what it was in previous games.

 

[Pyr]

S


A



B

Well, Ganon isn't 14th (lower), Luigi and Mario aren't close together, the gap between Marth and his boyfriend is far too huge, as it is with the Pits, MM should be higher, Mac is not the worst in the game...

No. Sorry. There is so much nope in this. Just so much nope.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

S


A



B



All this talk of "too high, too low" bothers me enough to post this list. B is the lowest tier on the list to reflect the current balance- I don't think there's a single person in the thread who hasn't claimed that a given character is too low, so I have brought the bottom up. No real order within tiers. The best character right now is probably Diddy and the worst, honestly, seems to be Little Mac- especially considering the stages currently legal. Falcon, Lucario, Sonic, and Fox could potentially be moved to S, they're all very strong, but I don't believe them to be on the level of the S-tiers. I'm most unsure of my placement of Link, Kirby, and MK in A-tier, as I just haven't seen much of those characters in competitive. Many of the characters in B have other characters that simply outclass them in similar roles (Dr., Dark Pit, Lucina; zoning characters in B are generally outclassed by the ones in A). I considered placing Koopa Jr. in A, but I personally have not seen anything that character has to put him over B. He has loads of endlag on his kill moves, and his recovery is not particularly strong. Duck Hunt Dog also seems to be lower than most other lists, but he's extremely easy to gimp and his kill moves, while strong, are slow, narrow, and unreliable. Thinking into the future, endlag caused by landing on the stage with his up-B means the newly discovered stage snap vulnerability hits him hard. I've previously argued for Wii Fit Trainer being underrated, but B-tier seems acceptable for the amount of work she must put into matchups. The characters I feel least confident about placing in B are Zelda and Purin. I haven't seen enough of those characters competitively, either.

Sorry for posting a list when being uncertain about several characters- I just really want people to consider that bottom tier in this game is something entirely different than what it was in previous games.

this was somthng i considered doing but just never got around to it. i really agree with this sentiment. blazblue first instalment has s to d tier while cronophantasm had s to b tier this make loads of sense since litterally there have been examples and results of so called low teirs winning.
trela and charazard? will and dk? nairo and zelda?

@ Pyr did you even read his post? he said he really unknowlegable on many characters.
on top of that ur completely missing his point. as in little mac is still b tier so still usable.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Im starting to think Luigi might be top 15 or higher. Yeah everyone says he has problems getting in but watch boss play he gets in pretty free. He's consistently beating top top tier characters. His combo ability out of dthrow is just so strong. I think it's time people quit under estimating this character.

 

[Pyr]

@ Pyr did you even read his post? he said he really unknowlegable on many characters.
on top of that ur completely missing his point. as in little mac is still b tier so still usable.

I did. To post a tier list, it is normally expected to have full knowledge of everything you can. Why waste your, and the reader's, time making a crappy list if you don't? Make a "these are the top" lists if you do so.

For that reason, I treat it as if he had "knowledge," despite his post to the contrary.

Edit: And, if the point of his post was to show a concept with tiers, he should made that post instead of a full list. Tier lists have never been a direct correlation to usability. They have, however, been to overall performance.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I did. To post a tier list, it is normally expected to have full knowledge of everything you can. Why waste your, and the reader's, time making a crappy list if you don't? Make a "these are the top" lists if you do so.

For that reason, I treat it as if he had "knowledge," despite his post to the contrary.

sooo ur admiting ur missing the larger point of his post then?

edit* the laws of human nature is that we understand what we see more than what we read. visual aids are more than enough to get points across. and regardless of what you or anyone says their will always be disagreement on tier list at this point on because we are all inexperienced even if we post about top teirs its still likly we are very wrong in the long run.

if u just want to not acknowledge his point than game faqs would love to see ur contribution.

 

[Pyr]

sooo ur admiting ur missing the larger point of his post then?

edit* the laws of human nature is that we understand what we see more than what we read. visual aids are more than enough to get points across. and regardless of what you or anyone says their will always be disagreement on tier list at this point on because we are all inexperienced even if we post about top teirs its still likly we are very wrong in the long run.

if u just want to not acknowledge his point than game faqs would love to see ur contribution.

There might be a disagreement on where people are on a tier list, but there never will be on what they are actually for.

I can't say I've ever been to gamefaqs myself, but thank you for the recommendation! You must have tons of experience to give such a recommendation! A true credit to their... Ahem... Community.

 

[Antonykun]

S


A



B



All this talk of "too high, too low" bothers me enough to post this list. B is the lowest tier on the list to reflect the current balance- I don't think there's a single person in the thread who hasn't claimed that a given character is too low, so I have brought the bottom up. No real order within tiers. The best character right now is probably Diddy and the worst, honestly, seems to be Little Mac- especially considering the stages currently legal. Falcon, Lucario, Sonic, and Fox could potentially be moved to S, they're all very strong, but I don't believe them to be on the level of the S-tiers. I'm most unsure of my placement of Link, Kirby, and MK in A-tier, as I just haven't seen much of those characters in competitive. Many of the characters in B have other characters that simply outclass them in similar roles (Dr., Dark Pit, Lucina; zoning characters in B are generally outclassed by the ones in A). I considered placing Koopa Jr. in A, but I personally have not seen anything that character has to put him over B. He has loads of endlag on his kill moves, and his recovery is not particularly strong. Duck Hunt Dog also seems to be lower than most other lists, but he's extremely easy to gimp and his kill moves, while strong, are slow, narrow, and unreliable. Thinking into the future, endlag caused by landing on the stage with his up-B means the newly discovered stage snap vulnerability hits him hard. I've previously argued for Wii Fit Trainer being underrated, but B-tier seems acceptable for the amount of work she must put into matchups. The characters I feel least confident about placing in B are Zelda and Purin. I haven't seen enough of those characters competitively, either.

Sorry for posting a list when being uncertain about several characters- I just really want people to consider that bottom tier in this game is something entirely different than what it was in previous games.

I'm Going to say that I freaking love your tier list. As it stands now even Swordfighter is more than capable of winning major tournaments. All the characters here have massive potential. I just wish I was strong enough to win anything major.