Character Competitive Impressions

[Player-3]

levin sword isn't cheese levin sword is the best projectile in the game

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm gonna have to disagree with a lot of what you said. The endlag from his moves sucks, but nair makes up for this (as you mentioned) but fair does as well. Both of these moves can be auto-canceled from a shorthop, making the lag you were talking almost non existent. Use bair offstage, not on the stage unless you know its going to connect. I don't really think it matters that much how much it takes to kill at the very center of the stage especially since Charizard wants to get people off stage, but just as a reference point, bair will kill mario sweetspotted, center stage, 64%.

I also strongly disagree with what you said about his specials. Flamethrower is much better than is was in brawl due to how much you can angle it now, and the new traits of flamethrower actually help him out. Charizard doesn't like people being right in front of his face, and also in Brawl by the time Flamethrower ended, since it didn't push him away from his enemy, your opponent could often run up and punish the end lag of the move, something that just doesn't happen anymore if you use it correctly. I'll admit that Flare Blitz is overrated and its uses are situational, but in those situations it's godlike. First it's a great recovery, would be one of the best if he didn't hurt himself in the process. If you sweetspot the ledge than you are almost ungimpable. Because Charizard has super armor everywhere on his body during the move (the active hitbox only has heavy armor) you can practically nullify even the most potent of offstage games. And if you sweet spot the ledge, Chard only takes 4% damage upon activation, which is a small price to pay if you ask me in exchange for being almost ungimpable. FB is easy to spot and block on reaction, so it's uses don't really cover when Chard is in disadvantage and neutral, but in advantage its fantastic. Enemy over committing to projectiles? Flare Blitz. Rolling too much? Flare Blitz. Need a reliable tech chase option? Flare Blitz. Enemy used their double jump and is landing on stage? Flare Blitz. (usually an air dodge can't work here because Chard's hitbox lasts the duration of the dodge and then some. Sometimes. It's all about timing, but you can condition people easily for a more reliable hit.) In extension to the last one, miss your Flare Blitz double jump chase because your opponent used his recovery move to dodge it? Flare Blitz AGAIN in the opposite direction, actually making for a more reliable hit. Enemy recovering too high? Flare Blitz. Instant death. (If you are at least two steps away from the ledge when you FB, you cannot self destruct. Of course, this varies from stage to stage, but I've tested it on FD stages, battlefield, and smashville) And my personal favorite, enemy respecting your dair/other aerial options too much off stage and recovers low? Jump over them, fast fall, Flare Blitz towards the stage just barely below the ledge. Stage spiked(nuked). Instant death no matter what. Nobody here is saying FB is the best move or anything, but you'll be hard pressed to convince me that it's anything but a great attack.

Rock Smash is underrated. It's almost like a completely different move now, but just cause you can't use it like you used to people are underselling it. I think you're kinda shrugging off the fact that it's got crazy super armor throughout the duration of the move. Rock smash can single handedly turn a bad situation into a great situation. A good hit can do 35% which is no laughing matter. The sliding rock smash tech increases it's utility. Like all his other special moves, it's great if you use it sparingly. Fly is good because not only is it armor, but it can kill extremely quick. jab jab up b combos to certain percents, and fly can kill at 70% (not factoring in move stale). Though as far as distance goes, it's pretty average as a recovery, especially when compared to large chunk of the cast. The two jumps help a little...

I don't know what you mean by not powerful. Charizard has PLENTY of moves that kill FARRR below 120%. F-smash (which I think is better than Bowser's because it's faster and has invincibility frames not just super armor), d-smash(not a great move though, disgusting end lag) U-Smash (can be used out of shield), Bair(not a could option here), Uair, Flare Blitz(76% Mario center stage, fresh) Fly (also an OoS option), Rock Smash (though not a great choice here). And that's just center stage. One of the things Charizard has over other heavies is his fantastic offstage game. They're easy to land and space, courtesy of his multiple jumps, and if you can hit by any of them (not named nair or fair. though fair can still kill, it'll be most likely stale cause it's a great spacing tool) you're gone. If you get touched by a sweet spotted bair offstage... that my friend is certain death. Another thing that sets him apart from other heavies is that Charizard is that KING of trading. Though heavies can naturally live long due to how fat they are, Charizard's got super armor on his kit in all the right places. With a good read, Charizard can COMPLETELY IGNORE death flat out with this. I think he'a berserker of sorts, and that's what sets him apart. If used correctly Chard can live up to higher percents than the rest of the cast (This does NOT mean he can survive longer. as much of his damage given comes from FB recoil or trading.) Chard's already one of the most physically powerful characters, so when Charizard gets in rage mode, ohhh boy. It's scary.

Basically... I'm not saying Charizard is top tier. Not saying he's high tier. I'm not even saying he's MID TIER! (though I hope he will be ) All I'm saying is that there's no way he's like the worst in the game... Well maybe there is a way he's worst in the game haha, but I'm not convinced.

After @YAYCONFORMITY ragged on Charizard for lacking
raw KO power, it got me thinking of another heavy with similar
power and is talked about very little: DK.

Aside from being outshone by his little buddy,
DK feels like the most basic of all the heavies.
He doesn't kill as fast, but has decent mobility on
all fronts and has more speed in his moveset with his tilts,
Bair and Nair.

He's probably the closest a heavy comes to being "balanced"...
which is also probably why he's relatively unpopular.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The match-up chart even lacks one fighter who he said was bad and never defended why: .

Personally, with Falco's sluggishness and range compared to Shulk, I think Falco is at a disadvantage. Granted, if Falco can get in, then Falco has the advantage because of raw power. I'm not a good Falco player, so take what I said with a grain of salt.

you are not valuing Falco's reflector enough.
Shulk isn't a character meant to be polarizing or shutdown everyone and their mom.
Y'all want the secret truth?
Jump and Speed are 2/5ths of your option. Air/ground speed respectively.
Regular smash has no real value at low %'s.
Regular shield has no real value at 0%'s. Very niche use early that can be played around anyways.
Buster is more about 30%+ life. "Shield safety" isn't well exploited in general (at least for the moment)?
So what do you really do? You spend your time as either one of the fastest characters on the ground, or one of the fastest characters in the air with the benefit of being disjointed.
It would be broken but Shulk has enough lag on moves that he doesn't wall anyone out. So most of his matchups will be even.

Are you high? You have a HELLA inflated opinion of Shulk. First, this match-up is even at the absolute best for Shulk. Your match-up chart shows either a lack of understanding for Shulk or half the cast. Captain Falcon, for example, should beat Shulk cleanly. I think you highly undersell Marth in that list and, by extension, Lucina. Have you ever played Shulk vs. a DK worth a damn (read: Will)? Why in God's name do you not have him losing to Kirby?

Those are just a couple of the grievous examples.

I love you, and I enjoy talking to you, but the post I just quoted is so gross I need to go take a shower.

What a ****ing jokah.

Peace.

Kirby? Disadvantage? Stretching.
Kirby can't guarantee monado arts outside of Jumping Inhale, Inhale is too impractical. As far as base kit, kirby is one of the least laggy characters once you excuse his specials, so he can be rather punitive, but he has considerable distance to cover against Shulks spacing, and this is rather clear against Buster Shulk.

 

[dragontamer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKFyOs2TTmg

lucario won at xanadu
discuss

I play vs a good Lucario pretty regularly.

Shiek's KO move is basically back-air, which means KOs at 130% to 170%, depending on where Lucario gets hit by it. Sure, there's forward smash, down-B, and up-B, but the KOs typically are from a safe bair at high percentages.

Lucario's aura at that range however KOs you at like 60% off fast safe moves like forward-B (Force Palm, specifically the command grab portion), wtf forward-tilt and back throw.

So any high-damage combo character will probably want to counter-pick Bowser or Robin vs Lucario. You just gotta KO that guy before he gets up in damage. Otherwise, its an absolute pain to face Lucario.

The Lucario player also shows how many options Lucario has when recovering. At high %, lucario can be low-and-offstage without a double-jump, and then manage to recover high (This part of the match).

 

[Locke 06]

So what do you really do? You spend your time as either one of the fastest characters on the ground, or one of the fastest characters in the air with the benefit of being disjointed.

So... about that air mobility. Don't you find it hard to space, since Shulk has really poor aerial deceleration (change of direction in the air)? (Also, no momentum shifting b-reverses outside of MA which need to be timed). Jump's max speed is great, but that only makes the spacing harder, doesn't it?

Speed is amazing though, and takes care of this problem. I just don't see Jump being good for approaches because of the deceleration issue. Am I missing something, because I've stopped looking at him as a spacing character and more of a rush down combo guy with a big sword who has some decent spacing tools (BAir).

 

[Ffamran]

you are not valuing Falco's reflector enough.
Shulk isn't a character meant to be polarizing or shutdown everyone and their mom.
Y'all want the secret truth?
Jump and Speed are 2/5ths of your option. Air/ground speed respectively.
Regular smash has no real value at low %'s.
Regular shield has no real value at 0%'s. Very niche use early that can be played around anyways.
Buster is more about 30%+ life. "Shield safety" isn't well exploited in general (at least for the moment)?
So what do you really do? You spend your time as either one of the fastest characters on the ground, or one of the fastest characters in the air with the benefit of being disjointed.
It would be broken but Shulk has enough lag on moves that he doesn't wall anyone out. So most of his matchups will be even.

Lag nullifies everything Falco can do. All Falco can do with Lag is delay the inevitable: defeat. Also, Reflector can only do so much alongside Blaster which out-ranges Shulk's Monado. The issue is getting in and that's one of Falco's biggest issues made worst by his air movement speed, somewhat of his ground speed, range, and Lag, especially Lag. Whenever I encounter a Shulk online, unless the player's just bad, then it's pretty much a challenge since it's difficult to get in when the Monado's range is enormous and Shulk's Nair is just the bee's knees compared to Ike's Nair.

 

[Yonder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKFyOs2TTmg

lucario won at xanadu
discuss

Luigi won 3 Xanadus, but people don't really consider Xanadu as much as it's not national...

Of course, Lucario is extremely good. I have him as 4th on my personal tier list [which I don't wanna post because I'll get modded for not having enough explanation :/]

 

[DJ3DS]

I'd like to Bring up ROB for discussion if anyone would be interested. I haven't found an awful match up yet, but I must admit the vast majority of my experiences have been devoid of a good amount of the available characters. I rarely see Bowser Jr, Robin, WFT, Villager, Megaman, and quiet a few other characters. So do you guys think ROB has any weakness or not?

In the neutral game, I feel ROB is decent but not outstanding - his projectiles are great, he has reasonable range at a decent speed and an excellent DSmash for close quarters. However, he lacks combos (though is very good at tacking on damage with laser and gyro) and is very easily comboed himself, and struggles when juggled. His recovery is a mixed blessing - he has the distance to do some quite effective gimping but also suffers from being relatively easy to gimp himself. My impression is that he is best to try recover from under the stage where he is harder to spike and a good player can tech potential gimps. He has a lot of strengths but some very exploitable weaknesses.

In terms of matchups I feel he beats out slow and heavy characters quite comfortably due to his combination of projectiles, range, power (USmash is absurd) and weight. However I also feel he loses out to characters who can combo and juggle him well; Sheik and Mario in particular seem to get him up to a high % very easily and sword characters are annoying as their disjoints juggle well (whereas fast fall Nair is very effective against characters with less range). Villager is also incredibly annoying and deserves a special mention as his pocketing the Gyro prevents ROB from pulling out another.

I really like ROB; he is by far my favourite character and I think he is solid enough. However he definitely feels like he has weaknesses and some losing matchups against the top end, and whilst I would expect him in the top half I dont expect him to be amongst the top tier without further discoveries.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So... about that air mobility. Don't you find it hard to space, since Shulk has really poor aerial deceleration (change of direction in the air)? (Also, no momentum shifting b-reverses outside of MA which need to be timed). Jump's max speed is great, but that only makes the spacing harder, doesn't it?

Speed is amazing though, and takes care of this problem. I just don't see Jump being good for approaches because of the deceleration issue. Am I missing something, because I've stopped looking at him as a spacing character and more of a rush down combo guy with a big sword who has some decent spacing tools (BAir).

I rarely use Jump on-stage I think I've noted that between here and the shulk boards as well. Im probably the biggest Decisive speed advocate you'll find. Truth remains that out of the 5. Two are rarely factors until high %'s. So you're left with Buster/Jump and Speed. Buster doesn't work too well due to lack of hitstun at a very low level. You'd exploit vanilla but the majority of upper characters have projectiles or are speed monsters themselves that warrant Speed so you can punish such small windows.

I believe we have a similar perspective, but I don't see Shulk as far as combos go. He's able to break into their zones with speed and threaten with a grab, which opens up his aerials/tilts and then utilize the stage control to get his off-stage game going which is strong because of movement speed + range. Other character's don't do it the same because they don't have the same effective range as shulk. Buster has the difference that it'll be safer on shield to make up for it to be harder to get the grab. Speed and Buster pressure shield differently to achieve the same result but with rather different rewards.

 

[DanGR]

you are not valuing Falco's reflector enough.

I often see this sentiment expressed in these forums- that his reflector is a good spacing tool.

It has a similar cooldown to many smash attacks, is completely punishable on block, but has significantly less reward. 5% with no kill power or potential followups is garbage risk:reward. At best it can be used rarely as a mix-up because it has decent range.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Void Reflector fixes a lot of the reward issues with it as a spacing tool.

I'm not too clear on follow-ups, but IIRC it does 9% and its transcendent (!!!!). Also, like Melee Shine, it can actually kill when you're in the air. Very situational, but it can work sometimes (hence why I'm referencing Melee Shine and its kill potential)

 

[Locke 06]

I rarely use Jump on-stage I think I've noted that between here and the shulk boards as well. Im probably the biggest Decisive speed advocate you'll find. Truth remains that out of the 5. Two are rarely factors until high %'s. So you're left with Buster/Jump and Speed. Buster doesn't work too well due to lack of hitstun at a very low level. You'd exploit vanilla but the majority of upper characters have projectiles or are speed monsters themselves that warrant Speed so you can punish such small windows.

I believe we have a similar perspective, but I don't see Shulk as far as combos go. He's able to break into their zones with speed and threaten with a grab, which opens up his aerials/tilts and then utilize the stage control to get his off-stage game going which is strong because of movement speed + range. Other character's don't do it the same because they don't have the same effective range as shulk. Buster has the difference that it'll be safer on shield to make up for it to be harder to get the grab. Speed and Buster pressure shield differently to achieve the same result but with rather different rewards.

I think Shield & Smash have some application at low %'s. Shield's actual shield buff might help (I don't know if this is true, but it'd be cool if shield stun was less in shield mode). and Smash gets you out of combos. Vanilla allows you to MA cancel, which will eventually be amazing.

The only reason why I'm against Decisive Speed is because I think the ability to change mid-combo is theoretically amazing. Speed to get in, deactivate so you can MA cancel into jump/buster/smash to continue combo shenanigans and end with off stage stuff. What I normally see is people changing in neutral, and I think it has serious potential as a combo tool. We definitely think similarly about the character, which is really cool as I just realized this yesterday and goes against a lot of what I thought about the character before. He's different from the normal sword archetype spacer for sure. Just because he's got amazing range/disjoints doesn't make him a spacing character.

So right now, I think Shulk is kinda not good/has very serious issues approaching unless he's in speed. Like... definitely not near the top of the cast. >.> I think we might disagree here, but since you know his issue with approaching, I'm curious to see what you have to say about it.

 

[Ffamran]

I often see this sentiment expressed in these forums- that his reflector is a good spacing tool.

It has a similar cooldown to many smash attacks, is completely punishable on block, but has significantly less reward. 5% with no kill power or potential followups is garbage risk:reward. At best it can be used rarely as a mix-up because it has decent range.

It is a good spacing tool, but it's more for spacing at mid range. So, in terms of spacing, it's like Ftilt then Reflector followed by Blaster. Each one gains range, but gains more end lag with Blaster having start-up and end lag.

One trick is this: Ftilt > Reflector for a "double spacer". It's safer than Reflector, but Reflector is really good for spacing and interrupting moves like Sonic's Spin Dash/Charge, Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke; Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick; Ike's Quickdraw and Eruption which Blaster can interrupt as well - take that, Quickdraw campers -, and Ness's PKT2. Close range spacing is much more dangerous compared to using Ftilt or even Dtilt and Jab.

 

[Berserker.]

I think Shield & Smash have some application at low %'s. Shield's actual shield buff might help (I don't know if this is true, but it'd be cool if shield stun was less in shield mode)

I think you're talking about the hitsun, not shield stun. Because of the increased weight, you take less hitsun. You can get out of most early percentage combos because most attacks deal really low hitsun on you when you're on shield.

 

[Locke 06]

I think you're talking about the hitstun, not shield stun. Because of the increased weight, you take less hitstun. You can get out of most early percentage combos because most attacks deal really low hitstun on you when you're on shield.

God this character gets more and more interesting the more I learn about him. I was thinking about shield stun because I know his shield is harder to break when in shield mode, but I didn't know he got less hit stun. That sounds super useful in matchups where you don't get camped out in shield mode.

Shulk has definitely moved up in my list of characters I want to learn at a decently high level. Meanwhile, I'll just let you guys do the legwork on finding out how to make him work.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think you're talking about the hitsun, not shield stun. Because of the increased weight, you take less hitsun. You can get out of most early percentage combos because most attacks deal really low hitsun on you when you're on shield.

Which we played with a bit on the shulk boards, but the problem becomes "which moves" fall apart on Shield at low % and we talked about using Smash vs Lucario for instance, but regular Monado doesn't really confirm much at all with Smash. Jigglypuff? Perhaps because of just how light she is if you can manage a repeated edgeguard but on a general note which is why I told him typically, Smash and shield are high % tools. Very little research was done onto their low % value, and so far we haven't found much. It would be reaching for me to tell anyone the value of low % Shield or Smash, when the Shulk community as a whole doesn't have much factual evidence of what either can accomplish and we certainly don't use it in the current meta.

The qualm with Shield in turn is that because your damage is reduced 30%, the shield stun you dealt is naturally reduced.
However Shield does decrease their damage 33% which drops the shield stun you take.

 

[Ffamran]

God this character gets more and more interesting the more I learn about him. I was thinking about shield stun because I know his shield is harder to break when in shield mode, but I didn't know he got less hit stun. That sounds super useful in matchups where you don't get camped out in shield mode.

Shulk has definitely moved up in my list of characters I want to learn at a decently high level. Meanwhile, I'll just let you guys do the legwork on finding out how to make him work.

Shulk's Monado Arts reminds me of Dante's Styles in DMC4... They're both complex respectively to their games. Mastering their styles lets you destroy stuff. Unfortunately, Shulk lacks Dante's Royal Guard...

 

[Meru.]

Solid advantage: Bowser Jr., Doctor Mario, Ganondorf, DDD, Lucina, Meta Knight, Mii Swordfighter, Mr. G&W, Robin, Samus, WFT, Zelda

*raises eyebrow*

Robin beats Shulk slightly. Even at best.

Shulk doesn't lose to a character as bad as Robin.

I'm gonna give you a chance to explain yourself before I drop the book Ryker and I wrote on this match-up.

Are you high? You have a HELLA inflated opinion of Shulk. First, this match-up is even at the absolute best for Shulk. Your match-up chart shows either a lack of understanding for Shulk or half the cast. Captain Falcon, for example, should beat Shulk cleanly. I think you highly undersell Marth in that list and, by extension, Lucina. Have you ever played Shulk vs. a DK worth a damn (read: Will)? Why in God's name do you not have him losing to Kirby?

Those are just a couple of the grievous examples.

I love you, and I enjoy talking to you, but the post I just quoted is so gross I need to go take a shower.

What a ****ing jokah.

Peace.

Oh god we're entering this phase again

Can we please start attacking each other with match-up ratios after the match-up itself has been discussed? I think above 'discussion' is very representative of many match-up discussions happening on Smashboards where people focus mainly on the match-up ratio, discuss that first - often they can also get pretty heated about it too - and, if they happen to bother enough, then start elaborating on what tools their character has against the opponent's character. Yet, in my opinion the ratio is the least interesting part since it doesn't teach me anything about the match-up other than that character X may have it a little tough against character Y (with the meaning of 'a little tough' being vague and highly dependent on your own interpretation). When reading a match-up discussion, I want to know what exactly a character is capable of against an another character OR by what he gets limited, and why. I admit these ratio's can be useful when construing a tier list so I'm not requesting to have them abolished. What I am requesting is if we could discuss the (less important) match-up ratio after we have discussed the (more important) main part, which is what tools both character have against each other, what they can use and what they have to overcome.

Posting ambiguous match-up ratios without any arguments to support your claims is just as uninformative as posting a tier list without elaborating on it. By the way, this is not solely directed to quoted posters. I would like to ask anyone discussing match-ups to elaborate on the process of the match-up first (tools of characters) before discussing the expected result (match-up ratios).

 

[Berserker.]

Which we played with a bit on the shulk boards, but the problem becomes "which moves" fall apart on Shield at low % and we talked about using Smash vs Lucario for instance, but regular Monado doesn't really confirm much at all with Smash. Jigglypuff? Perhaps because of just how light she is if you can manage a repeated edgeguard but on a general note which is why I told him typically, Smash and shield are high % tools. Very little research was done onto their low % value, and so far we haven't found much. It would be reaching for me to tell anyone the value of low % Shield or Smash, when the Shulk community as a whole doesn't have much factual evidence of what either can accomplish and we certainly don't use it in the current meta.

I don't use shield at early %'s myself and I also don't really buy that idea of Smash art being useful for escaping combos. However, I'm only speaking of this based on some post in the metagame thread recently (who explained his experience on using shield at the start of a match). For example, Mario's d-throw. At early %'s on shield, it does really low hitsun to the point that it's even unsafe. You'll probably notice this more on characters that rely on throw combos but honestly, I can't say much on this matter since I haven't really given the idea of starting a match with shield art a shot. I've already tried smash but it doesn't really do much

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The only reason why I'm against Decisive Speed is because I think the ability to change mid-combo is theoretically amazing. Speed to get in, deactivate so you can MA cancel into jump/buster/smash to continue combo shenanigans and end with off stage stuff. What I normally see is people changing in neutral, and I think it has serious potential as a combo tool. We definitely think similarly about the character, which is really cool as I just realized this yesterday and goes against a lot of what I thought about the character before. He's different from the normal sword archetype spacer for sure. Just because he's got amazing range/disjoints doesn't make him a spacing character.

So right now, I think Shulk is kinda not good/has very serious issues approaching unless he's in speed. Like... definitely not near the top of the cast. >.> I think we might disagree here, but since you know his issue with approaching, I'm curious to see what you have to say about it.

It takes at least 4 button presses to go from Speed to Jump, seven to go to Buster from there, eight to go to Smash. Can you say Clunky?
MA canceling is useful, but it's limited due to internal cooldowns and the very limitations of when you can and cannot change your monado art.

You can approach in Buster. You can approach in Vanilla. And you technically can do so in Jump. Hell you can and likely will approach in Shield eventually. Shield giving you the peace of mind that they won't kill you regardless of what you do. Like Dash-shielding as an approach Monado Shield ends up being an occassional useful tool to bait something out. Reducing damage 33% will cause them to do less shield stun, but it works both ways and your grab game is crap due to your speed. When you can't be punished well for a poor approach though shield does end up useful in that regard. Speeds still the best by far.

 

[Asdioh]

I think you're talking about the hitsun, not shield stun. Because of the increased weight, you take less hitsun. You can get out of most early percentage combos because most attacks deal really low hitsun on you when you're on shield.

what? Surely weight has nothing to do with hitstun? Does he actually suffer less hitstun in shield mode? I know he takes less damage and knockback, and that reduced damage I assumee caused less shield damage, but I didn't know about the hitstun.

 

[san.]

Less hitstun cause of less damage, too, I suppose.

 

[Berserker.]

what? Surely weight has nothing to do with hitstun? Does he actually suffer less hitstun in shield mode? I know he takes less damage and knockback, and that reduced damage I assumee caused less shield damage, but I didn't know about the hitstun.

I can't think of any other reason. I don't think shield directly reduces hitsun received. The defense buff (Taking less damage from attacks) also has a role in this. Also, I've been finding some buster combos with Shulk. Like for example, buster n-air to buster f-smash only works on Mario from 49% but it works on Bowser from 58%. From that, I guess it's safe to conclude that weight does have an effect on hitsun received.

Also buster does less knockback but this debuff also affected the hitsun on Shulk's attacks. That's why buster is unsafe on heavier characters at earlier percentages

Edit: Shield directly buffs shield health. You can withstand Bowser bomb with Shield art's shield

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That could be more due to hurtbox size differences and fall speed rather than hitstun received.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Lag nullifies everything Falco can do. All Falco can do with Lag is delay the inevitable: defeat. Also, Reflector can only do so much alongside Blaster which out-ranges Shulk's Monado. The issue is getting in and that's one of Falco's biggest issues made worst by his air movement speed, somewhat of his ground speed, range, and Lag, especially Lag. Whenever I encounter a Shulk online, unless the player's just bad, then it's pretty much a challenge since it's difficult to get in when the Monado's range is enormous and Shulk's Nair is just the bee's knees compared to Ike's Nair.

i need to ditto you or somthing cuz i greatly disagree i just need to see how u play or somthing.

 

[Ffamran]

i need to ditto you or somthing cuz i greatly disagree i just need to see how u play or somthing.

I did make a point to say I not a good Falco, right? Plus I know that I have bad habits of using Fair on stage, using Dair for no reason and never rolling for some reason - I think I caught the "stigma" of fearing rolling too much. I also have issues landing Bair, Dtilt, not using Ftilt, Uair, Down Smash, or Nair enough, and using Reflector and Side Smash more than Ftilt.

The fights I remember having against Shulk as Falco, however, were legitimately laggy enough that I there wasn't much I could do since it felt like there was a wall that stopped momentum. Whenever I screw around and there's little lag, then it's fine.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Damage alterations affect shield and hit stun since those are calculated based on your damage and then multiplied by whatever modifier the move may have. Normally the multiplier is 1, so it directly correlates to damage the majority of the time.

However as Shaya said before, Hit stun and Shield stun aren't linear. So reducing damage 33% doesn't decrease hitstun 33%. However things do become less safe against Shield Shulk, and by extension Shield shulks attacks are less safe.

Blah its not in Smash academy, and the thread in question doesn't put the hit/shield stun. Brb.

Edit:

Definitely not linear.

DMG | Hit Lag | Shield Stun
4 | 5.25 | 3
6 | 6 | 3.5
7 | 6.25 | 3.75
10 | 7.5 | ?
13 | 9.25 | 5.75
19 | 11.25 | 7
3 | 5.25 | 2

Testing this was torturous as a single person on 3DS. So **** all of you I'm not bothering ever again.
Shield stun is really low in this game.

This post.
You get the idea you can change the safety of a move by changing how much damage it's worth.
So Shield affects hit and Shield stun for both parties, the opposition slightly more then Shulk (30 vs 33%).
This is better off in Decisive however since there is a much more significant disparity between damage reduced vs Damage dealt that works out in Shulks favor. There may be other modifiers in play when it comes to Hitstun when it comes to Shulks artes, but I have no evidence to say so. However Smash is legit unsafe on shield due to its reduced damage. The benefit of Shield would be to make certain things unsafe like Sheiks tilt spam (if it actually does that, and I believe it does) but given it also makes you juggle bait it's a toss up.

 

[Berserker.]

That could be more due to hurtbox size differences and fall speed rather than hitstun received.

Those are some other factors for this, other than my execution of the combo

 

[Locke 06]

It takes at least 4 button presses to go from Speed to Jump, seven to go to Buster from there, eight to go to Smash. Can you say Clunky?
MA canceling is useful, but it's limited due to internal cooldowns and the very limitations of when you can and cannot change your monado art.

You can approach in Buster. You can approach in Vanilla. And you technically can do so in Jump. Hell you can and likely will approach in Shield eventually. Shield giving you the peace of mind that they won't kill you regardless of what you do. Like Dash-shielding as an approach Monado Shield ends up being an occassional useful tool to bait something out. Reducing damage 33% will cause them to do less shield stun, but it works both ways and your grab game is crap due to your speed. When you can't be punished well for a poor approach though shield does end up useful in that regard. Speeds still the best by far.

Hey, I did say theoretical, right?
I think it can be done/is eventually what we will see from high level Shulk. Luigi's jumpless cyclone is 13 buttons per second, 7 doesnt seem that bad. It just needs to be planned out in advanced (a lot of time spent in training mode/¼ speed). You could map special to a trigger and try to multitask while doing a utilt combo/Nair or fair combo. Just some ideas from someone observing from the outside of Shulk development.

As for approaching with different arts, you caaan approach... But your aerial approaches are really easy to mess with because of your poor flexibility in the air. I don't think many people know this about Shulk (I didn't until recently) and it changes how you play against him. Dash>shield>grab can really mess you up since it's easy to predict where you're going to land and your aerials require such high commitment. You can't really empty hop because your nair and fair require some time before the hitboxes hit a grounded opponent in front of you. That limits you to ground approaches and you don't have a ton of speed to make it that effective.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I did make a point to say I not a good Falco, right? Plus I know that I have bad habits of using Fair on stage, using Dair for no reason and never rolling for some reason - I think I caught the "stigma" of fearing rolling too much. I also have issues landing Bair, Dtilt, not using Ftilt, Uair, Down Smash, or Nair enough, and using Reflector and Side Smash more than Ftilt.

The fights I remember having against Shulk as Falco, however, were legitimately laggy enough that I there wasn't much I could do since it felt like there was a wall that stopped momentum. Whenever I screw around and there's little lag, then it's fine.

oh actual lag lol thought u were talking landing lag xd.

 

[Ffamran]

oh qctualblag lol thought u were talking landing lag xd.

Oh... Well that clears everything. I was about to prepare my butt for getting butt-kicked.

 

[Nobie]

As for approaching with different arts, you caaan approach... But your aerial approaches are really easy to mess with because of your poor flexibility in the air. I don't think many people know this about Shulk (I didn't until recently) and it changes how you play against him.

Is there a full or at least extensive aerial deceleration ranking? All I know from personal experience is that it looks something like this.

Top: Jigglypuff
High: Wario, Mega Man, G&W?
Bottom: Little Mac

 

[Locke 06]

Is there a full or at least extensive aerial deceleration ranking? All I know from personal experience is that it looks something like this.

Top: Jigglypuff
High: Wario, Mega Man, G&W?
Bottom: Little Mac

Nope. I just noticed I was shield grabbing a lot of Shulk's aerial approaches/messing with his spacing. The guy I was playing could space well when I sat still, but when I started to go towards him, there were problems. I had a hunch for why that was, tried out the character, and confirmed my suspicion that it wasn't good. Then I asked the Shulk boards and they agreed that it's somewhat of a problem. I know no way of putting an actual value on it.

 

[irokex13]

Soooo.. about that whole Shulk vs Robin thing? Anyone willing to finish that discussion because I'm genuinely interested to see how these characters fare against each other.

 

[Berserker.]

Soooo.. about that whole Shulk vs Robin thing? Anyone willing to finish that discussion because I'm genuinely interested to see how these characters fare against each other.

Bring it to the Shulk boards. Not in the match up discussion thread since we're discussing something another character there. Bring it to the FAQ for now

 

[Shammonx]

In the neutral game, I feel ROB is decent but not outstanding - his projectiles are great, he has reasonable range at a decent speed and an excellent DSmash for close quarters. However, he lacks combos (though is very good at tacking on damage with laser and gyro) and is very easily comboed himself, and struggles when juggled. His recovery is a mixed blessing - he has the distance to do some quite effective gimping but also suffers from being relatively easy to gimp himself. My impression is that he is best to try recover from under the stage where he is harder to spike and a good player can tech potential gimps. He has a lot of strengths but some very exploitable weaknesses.

In terms of matchups I feel he beats out slow and heavy characters quite comfortably due to his combination of projectiles, range, power (USmash is absurd) and weight. However I also feel he loses out to characters who can combo and juggle him well; Sheik and Mario in particular seem to get him up to a high % very easily and sword characters are annoying as their disjoints juggle well (whereas fast fall Nair is very effective against characters with less range). Villager is also incredibly annoying and deserves a special mention as his pocketing the Gyro prevents ROB from pulling out another.

I really like ROB; he is by far my favourite character and I think he is solid enough. However he definitely feels like he has weaknesses and some losing matchups against the top end, and whilst I would expect him in the top half I dont expect him to be amongst the top tier without further discoveries.

While he can be juggled, I believe between his nair, side b, and dair, he has a solid chance of turning harass around, but I'll admit I haven't played against high end players. I'm currently in the middle of getting some discussion gong between the Diddy and ROB boards, and so far, it's perceived as an almost equal match up. I haven't played against a good Sheik unfortunately so I can't really comment on that one, but I can see how Mario is viewed as a solid pick into him.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh... Well that clears everything. I was about to prepare my butt for getting butt-kicked.

lol my falco is quite rusty since iv been kinda soul searching for a third main iv not quite stoped falco i just not sure if hes who i want yet so i started exploring other characters i was really excited about like samus, and now currently cheaking out bowser.

 

[Ffamran]

lol my falco is quite rusty since iv been kinda soul searching for a third main iv not quite stoped falco i just not sure if hes who i want yet so i started exploring other characters i was really excited about like samus, and now currently cheaking out bowser.

I picked Falco up as sort of way to prove that he isn't trash as many people claim. Ike remains as sort of a fall back character now since Fox's voice irritates me to no end - Fox was my crutch character in every SSB game. Yoshi's all right which I never understood since when I played Brawl after a long while, I couldn't use Ike well, but Yoshi was okay. It was weird and it remains the same now. Yoshi being an adorable and goofy dinosaur helps too.

Captain Falcon is much easier to use compared to Brawl, so he's like the other character I can pick up and have fun along with Ganondorf because why the hell not? He hits like a freaking truck! It's hilarious! Toon Link ended up taking over Link. I guess I like Toon Link's speed more, but I digress.

The more I look at Falco and the more I look back at Brawl, especially Wolf, the more I think that Falco is an imperfect mesh of what defines Falco and what defines Wolf. Falco in Brawl and Melee was his own beast. I don't know him well in either, but Falco seems like a character who has good power moves in contrast to Fox who racks up damage through combos. So, in a way, Falco was the power to Fox's speed. With the issue of speed, melee range, and Blaster defying common sense of pull the trigger and put the stupid thing back in the holster, Falco's approach is lacking.

Strong characters like Ike and Ganondorf make up with range or just pure raw power, but Falco's short range at times makes it annoying to get in. Sometimes, it's better (for me) to just wait and counter. Then I see others who are obviously better than me approaching fine with short hop Uairs, Nairs, and Bairs. Still, it's evident that Falco's speed is an issue.

Wolf, on the other hand or claw if you'd prefer, was his own beast who shared Specials in functionality. He had attacks that moved him in significantly like his infamous Side Smash, his Jab, or his fast moves, or just had damn good range like Ftilt. Wolf could get away with being slow since he had moves that actually moved him or good range. His Blaster is probably the safest Blaster since the bayonet can knock people back and the bolt's hitbox is covers the ground as well compared to Fox's and Falco's thin beams.

So, Falco is unique, but really imperfect compared to Fox who didn't change much after pretty much being "finalized" in Brawl or hell, Ike who's debut in Brawl didn't have much changed in SSB4. Falco's all right, but that feels like that's all he is: all right. He's not this "HOLY CRAP! IT'S FALCO" in Melee and Brawl, but more like "Oh... It's Falco..."

My point is that Falco is anything, but trash. I'd also argue that none of the characters in this game are trash. If you want trash, then look at Brawl Ganondorf. That's trash. SSB4 is much, much balanced, thankfully. With me being vocal about and defending Falco, if that bothers you, I'm sorry; I will try to tone it down.

I end this with if Wolf does return and even if he's just a "port" who's tweaked and balanced, I'd probably end up having Wolf as my main and Falco as my secondary - I just like Wolf's claw fighting style. That's if it's just Brawl Wolf. Now, if Wolf returns, but is really weird or really "bad", then I'm sticking with Falco.

 

[Trifroze]

My point is that Falco is anything, but trash. I'd also argue that none of the characters in this game are trash. If you want trash, then look at Brawl Ganondorf. That's trash. SSB4 is much, much balanced, thankfully. With me being vocal about and defending Falco, if that bothers you, I'm sorry; I will try to tone it down.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I picked Falco up as sort of way to prove that he isn't trash as many people claim. Ike remains as sort of a fall back character now since Fox's voice irritates me to no end - Fox was my crutch character in every SSB game. Yoshi's all right which I never understood since when I played Brawl after a long while, I couldn't use Ike well, but Yoshi was okay. It was weird and it remains the same now. Yoshi being an adorable and goofy dinosaur helps too.

Captain Falcon is much easier to use compared to Brawl, so he's like the other character I can pick up and have fun along with Ganondorf because why the hell not? He hits like a freaking truck! It's hilarious! Toon Link ended up taking over Link. I guess I like Toon Link's speed more, but I digress.

The more I look at Falco and the more I look back at Brawl, especially Wolf, the more I think that Falco is an imperfect mesh of what defines Falco and what defines Wolf. Falco in Brawl and Melee was his own beast. I don't know him well in either, but Falco seems like a character who has good power moves in contrast to Fox who racks up damage through combos. So, in a way, Falco was the power to Fox's speed. With the issue of speed, melee range, and Blaster defying common sense of pull the trigger and put the stupid thing back in the holster, Falco's approach is lacking.

Strong characters like Ike and Ganondorf make up with range or just pure raw power, but Falco's short range at times makes it annoying to get in. Sometimes, it's better (for me) to just wait and counter. Then I see others who are obviously better than me approaching fine with short hop Uairs, Nairs, and Bairs. Still, it's evident that Falco's speed is an issue.

Wolf, on the other hand or claw if you'd prefer, was his own beast who shared Specials in functionality. He had attacks that moved him in significantly like his infamous Side Smash, his Jab, or his fast moves, or just had damn good range like Ftilt. Wolf could get away with being slow since he had moves that actually moved him or good range. His Blaster is probably the safest Blaster since the bayonet can knock people back and the bolt's hitbox is covers the ground as well compared to Fox's and Falco's thin beams.

So, Falco is unique, but really imperfect compared to Fox who didn't change much after pretty much being "finalized" in Brawl or hell, Ike who's debut in Brawl didn't have much changed in SSB4. Falco's all right, but that feels like that's all he is: all right. He's not this "HOLY CRAP! IT'S FALCO" in Melee and Brawl, but more like "Oh... It's Falco..."

My point is that Falco is anything, but trash. I'd also argue that none of the characters in this game are trash. If you want trash, then look at Brawl Ganondorf. That's trash. SSB4 is much, much balanced, thankfully. With me being vocal about and defending Falco, if that bothers you, I'm sorry; I will try to tone it down.

I end this with if Wolf does return and even if he's just a "port" who's tweaked and balanced, I'd probably end up having Wolf as my main and Falco as my secondary - I just like Wolf's claw fighting style. That's if it's just Brawl Wolf. Now, if Wolf returns, but is really weird or really "bad", then I'm sticking with Falco.

all it sound like to me is that ur trying to use falco one way or the other. as in rush down or spacer but where his dominance lies is in his pokes.
blaster is probably the most annoying projectile in the game when used intelligently
falco preffers to be just out side opponents range when going qcq to effectivly punish. not to say he is a punish character though.( but crazy d tilt kills are awsome) falco just needs to understand his range.
and where hes effective. (somthing i dont see any falco player use is up throw where he can effectivly fish and trap\punish air dodges for the kill at higher percents since falco most dominate trait is not his horizontal chases but his vertical he can be sereiously threating from below)
falcos run speed is not to much of an issue since seriously he dose not have the strogest ground chase options anyway. other than dash attack/grab witch both have a rediculous amount of followups unlike any of falcos ariels bar uair and nair witch are not horizontal chase options.

falcos problem is not his stats since they are pretty spectacular in that all his moves have are great amount of use. it more that falco is a honest character with moves that other player can reasonably respond to. So its more on the player to shake up his play style to surprise and not the character *shiek*
falco is a character i see going up in usage once people understand that that honest dose not mean telegraphed.

plus falco is a certafied BA come on.

ps. what with this hate on foxes voice? sure its worse than brawl but like his melee voice is terrible the game where he was a very popular pic.

also come on bro iv probably never once not defended falco of being bad iv been in this thread a bit and thought you would know that i advocate falcos awsomness left and right man. *sniff* i thought wees was cool bruh.