Character Competitive Impressions

[Jabejazz]

i maek tear list

Care to explain the pos-

A+ Tier :

B Tier:

u wot m8

 

[TTTTTsd]

Care to explain the pos-



u wot m8

Okay WOWWW I wasn't even paying attention. I uh....I'll leave this to you guys. I'll just go turn into my green unit and hide from the bandits in the village now....

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My biggest issue with that tier list isn't that it's posted without any explanation or justification (although that's also a problem) but that there are 9 separate tiers ranging from SS to F. Like, I'm reasonably certain that's 4 or 5 tiers more than necessary and I don't see the point in categorizing them as anything other than Top/High/Mid/Low/Bottom anyway. Letters don't say anything on their own and I don't think the characters are that separate from each other in terms of ability to justify 9 distinct tiers.

Not even touching the actual character placements.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Decided to look at the Character Rankings on Smashboards.
The distribution of picks is terrible.

 

[LIQUID12A]

u wot m8

My thoughts exactly. Lucina above Marth makes very little sense.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dawg...2 whole tiers..like...I don't...like what??

Man..you know what? You don't even....

Ay yo **** this ****

 

[Raziek]

Bad list is bad, just leave it be.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you want to evaluate a character's capabilities ... at this point you should be starting discussion about [key-] matchups of characters and see if a consensus [or at least a compromise] can be reached between knowledgable and top-level players of both characters. It's more conclusive than randomly throwing out opinions on character X being top Y in the game and hope random dude Z agrees.

When I posted my opinions on Fox matchups, I realized that there generally wasn't a high amount of disagreement. Nakat, who is arguably the most representative Fox player around, agreed with most of them - especially the ones against characters that are considered very strong by most people. The fact that nobody seemed to have any major disagreements with it is pretty helpful too because it gives as a solid glimpse on what his matchups look like and draw conclusions from that. I'm going to do the same thing with Shulk now - based on my experience - and see what people think. Unfortunately there's no real equivalent to what Nakat is to Fox / Ness so it's a bit more up in the air:

Solid disadvantage: Diddy Kong, Mii Brawler
Minor disadvantage: Fox, Pikachu, Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic
Even: Cpt. Falcon, [Dark] Pit, Greninja, Ike, Ness, Pac-Man, ROB, Wario, Yoshi, ZSS
Minor advantage: Bowser, DK, Kirby, Link, Little Mac, Lucario, Marth, Mega Man, Peach, Toon Link, Villager
Solid advantage: Bowser Jr., Doctor Mario, Ganondorf, DDD, Lucina, Meta Knight, Mii Swordfighter, Mr. G&W, Robin, Samus, WFT, Zelda

Left out the characters that I have literally no experience against - Mario, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Palutena, Gunner;

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you want to evaluate a character's capabilities ... at this point you should be starting discussion about [key-] matchups of characters and see if a consensus [or at least a compromise] can be reached between knowledgable and top-level players of both characters. It's more conclusive than randomly throwing out opinions on character X being top Y in the game and hope random dude Z agrees.

When I posted my opinions on Fox matchups, I realized that there generally wasn't a high amount of disagreement. Nakat, who is arguably the most representative Fox player around, agreed with most of them - especially the ones against characters that are considered very strong by most people. The fact that nobody seemed to have any major disagreements with it is pretty helpful too because it gives as a solid glimpse on what his matchups look like and draw conclusions from that. I'm going to do the same thing with Shulk now - based on my experience - and see what people think. Unfortunately there's no real equivalent to what Nakat is to Fox / Ness so it's a bit more up in the air:

Solid disadvantage: Diddy Kong, Mii Brawler
Minor disadvantage: Fox, Pikachu, Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic
Even: Cpt. Falcon, [Dark] Pit, Greninja, Ike, Ness, Pac-Man, ROB, Wario, Yoshi, ZSS
Minor advantage: Bowser, DK, Kirby, Link, Little Mac, Lucario, Marth, Mega Man, Peach, Toon Link, Villager
Solid advantage: Bowser Jr., Doctor Mario, Ganondorf, DDD, Lucina, Meta Knight, Mii Swordfighter, Mr. G&W, Robin, Samus, WFT, Zelda

Left out the characters that I have literally no experience against - Mario, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Palutena, Gunner;

I'll chime in on Luigi from the perspective of someone who plays Luigi, I think it's either minor advantage or even for Fox, maybe more the former. Fox generally likes to be up close but that's kind of scary vs. Luigi and given Fox's fall speed it's not a great thing to be hit with any of Luigi's combos/throws. Luigi's Nair is also great against characters who have a lot of string/followup based offensive options (i.e. a majority of the cast). So long as Luigi doesn't get PREDICTABLE with it, anyways. That's just my thoughts, it's mostly theory but I've played enough Luigi to draw this one. Don't call it final or anything though

EDIT: THIS POST IS A DISGUSTING BOTCH AND I AM DUMB. READ BELOW FOR ACTUAL THING

 

[~ Gheb ~]

These are the matchup numbers for Shulk, not Fox.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I see, I won't consider Dedede to have good neutral anymore for now then. Out of interest related to the topic though, who does everyone think of as the best characters in neutral, advantage and disadvantage respectively? I'll relist my top 5 neutrals with a bit more thought as well as the other two categories. Note that I'm not claiming anything with this, just bringing up some points and ideas.


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Neutral (efficiency at getting control of the match):

Mega Man is basically the only heavy zoner in the game with an actually good grab game. Villager has arguably the best neutral b in the game with pocket, obviously more useful in some match-ups than others although it's never useless as it grants a decent amount of invincibility. He also has 2 different projectiles that can travel on any level he wants, simultaneously, as well as a quick disjointed uair and dair. Diddy Kong demands a lot a caution from the opponent because of the follow-ups he can perform out of grabs which are easy to get being so fast with good range and bananas to help him out. Sonic forces a guessing game with his approaches and usually wins because of his speed. Sheik has the tools, mobility and the safe frame data to both force approaches and approach while also making sure the opponent is punished for making a mistake. If (or more like when) her chaingrab becomes a thing, you'll also have to treat Sheik like lesser ICs. I feel like Little Mac could go well in here, but don't have enough experience on him.

Advantage (efficiency at keeping control of the match):

These characters are hard to get off of yourself once they get in. They all have good throw and combo setups and can juggle other characters with ease, Ness a little bit less so, but he has PK thunder to reliably harass half the cast offstage and he's arguably the most efficient KOer in the game, even more so than Diddy Kong. The first four also have the highest overall mobility in the game, combining some of the fastest running speeds, falling and fast falling speeds and horizontal aerial speeds in the game. Sheik's and ZSS's frame datas combined with that are amazing for rushdown, while Fox's utilt and nair and Falcon's dash grab provide setups and resets that are sometimes hard to react to. Something Falcon also has that the others don't is a reliable spike in his dair for edgeguarding and the ability to take more risks due to his long survivability, although Ness' weight isn't shabby either. Mario and Luigi are also good with their combo game, but their overall mobility just isn't good enough, more so for Luigi.

Disadvantage (efficiency of stopping opponent's control)

None of these characters mind about being on the receiving end too much. While Villager can drop down to the bottom corner blastzone and still recover to the opposite ledge of the stage, he doesn't have too many options to break out of combos with besides nair. He still makes it however, considering how good he does just camping around the ledge. Thank science this game doesn't have conventional ledge mechanics. Pikachu can escape horizontally with side b, stall under the stage with thunder and make it back to the stage fairly unpredictably with quick attack, as well as break out of combos with his fast aerials. Lucario, that is correct; this may seem like a silly logic but no matter how you look at it, being in disadvantage is necessary for Lucario to reach efficient strength, so he only really minds about it after around 100-120% depending on the match-up. Even at sufficient percents, while his recovery isn't as good as people think, it's among the better ones when used right and his aura b-reversals are defensively very useful. Yoshi can basically challenge anything with dair and eggs and use his super armor to nullify gimps offstage. Him and Jigglypuff also shake half the cast completely off of them with their aerial mobility and can break out of resets and setups with their quick aerials such as nairs. Shoutouts to jump Shulk though.


----------


If all the categories were top 10 instead of top 5, Sheik, Pikachu and Yoshi would be in all of them, as none of those characters have any considerable weaknesses. I think because of that it's very unlikely any of them will ever be unviable. Also if any character such as Rosalina is missing from any of the categories, it's because I don't have the knowledge to put them there.

Now, what is this kind of theorycraft good for? At the very least if we make this more comprehensive, it'd be easier to truly extract some clear pros and cons in characters and really think about what they're going to do for the character, and thus expect some characters to become more viable and others less viable in the future before the metagame actually concretely develops, and at the same time speed up its development. If the development of SDI and Snake's super exploitable recovery were given more thought early on in Brawl for example, it might've been easier to expect him to drop a few spots in viability before the metagame actually developed.

Moving on to Smash 4, I think that slow runners and characters with bad grab games for example just fundamentally won't do very well in the metagame unless those are for mandatory, compensating reasons such as extreme aerial mobility or a strong keep-away/camping game. This is because your only OoS option is often jab or grab, because of how effective shielding is and because of how important quick punishes are for keeping or getting the momentum in your favor. Slow but heavy hitters probably won't flourish either despite rage considering how ridiculously good some characters' frame data is while still having good damage and knockback properties in their moves. Similarly I could see rage's importance being emphasized and players capitalizing on staying alive as long as possible by playing more "lame" and minimizing any risk at high %s, making heavy but mobile characters more viable than they would otherwise be. Lastly, bad recovery isn't as bad is it was before because of the ledge mechanics. Maybe these points are obvious, but at the same time they shouldn't be overlooked because we're mostly focusing on short-term metagame.

It'd be interesting if we made long-term tier speculation with factors like these in mind. Good mobility and frame data will always be important, but at the same time I think difficulty KOing while getting yourself KOed quickly will be emphasized in this Smash, hence I think Diddy Kong may actually keep his throne, Yoshi will be top 5, and Sheik and Pikachu will stay within control despite their ridiculous potential.

The one issue I have with your analysis is that in evaluating a character's advantage state you're evaluating just how good they are at keeping the opponent at a disadvantage and not accounting for reward. Sheik, for example, has tons of reliable combos but they don't result in a lot of damage, while Ganondorf has unreliable but devastating attack strings. The sheer reward Ganondorf gets from being in advantage makes him easily top 10 in this respect, maybe top 5, and this alone makes him usable in tourney, as he's pretty weak in the other two states. He and Dedede are the two heavies that I'd consider to be really dominant in advantage, though DK's no slouch when he's got someone cornered.

 

[TTTTTsd]

These are the matchup numbers for Shulk, not Fox.

I have gravely erred with a ****up greater than Lucina > Marth and now I will post Shulk vs. Luigi like a proper man.

Probably minor to solid advantage. Looking at Shulk's disjoint and how it affects Luigi is important. He doesn't really HAVE to get close to Luigi so I'm thinking advantage in some way shape or form. The monado arts are pretty good at messing with Luigi too, given all of their applications and Luigi's innate limitations. I think Shulk wins vs. him, how much is hard to determine but I think I'm leaning on mild to solid advantage for Shulk only because he has a bunch of ways to keep Luigi out.

Gimping Luigi is also fairly easy for Shulk because Monado Arts and because Luigi's recovery is fairly limited and not that great. So yeah, probably in Shulk's favor, leaning on mild advantage but it could easily be solid given what I know about Shulk.

So verdict = Mild advantage for now, could change in the future for sure and it probably will given Shulk is impressing me more and more as I look at him.

 

[Locke 06]

Ahh, that makes more sense.

My opinion of Shulk is really low these days. He has one glaring weakness that I can't get past, which is awful aerial deceleration. For a spacing character (I call him that because of his sword and how people play him), he can't space well because of it and his approaches are high commitment. Outside of speed, he's not good at approaching. Also, because of the aerial mobility, he gets juggled and landing trapped really really hard.

After looking at his moveset and data more, I feel like he's more of a rushdown character that wants to be in (hilt range) and uses the sword to extend combos. That's why the tip doesn't do more damage.

Edit: Shulk boards are doing v Mega Man right now. I've put my input there and there's also a thread on the Mega Man boards v Shulk. I feel more confident saying it's even at this moment, even though I believe it's in Mega Man's favor slightly.

Edit 2: I don't think Shulk will be great until MA canceling and MA switching mid-combo becomes common. Then he can possibly be a monster.

 

[Trifroze]

The one issue I have with your analysis is that in evaluating a character's advantage state you're evaluating just how good they are at keeping the opponent at a disadvantage and not accounting for reward. Sheik, for example, has tons of reliable combos but they don't result in a lot of damage, while Ganondorf has unreliable but devastating attack strings. The sheer reward Ganondorf gets from being in advantage makes him easily top 10 in this respect, maybe top 5, and this alone makes him usable in tourney, as he's pretty weak in the other two states. He and Dedede are the two heavies that I'd consider to be really dominant in advantage, though DK's no slouch when he's got someone cornered.

That's actually not the only thing I was considering, which is mostly why I put Ness in there. I've used Ganondorf a lot myself in Brawl as well as this game, and I'd agree he's in the top 10 but not top 5, because while he has possibly the highest kill power in the game and a really solid edgeguarding capabilities, his follow-ups aren't reliable enough and you'll be almost always relying on reads, more or less. The descriptions beside the terms in my post are just me trying to simplify what they approximately mean to anyone not yet aware.

However I would still argue that while KO power and advantage are connected, they can also be seen as distinctively different things much comparable to survivability/disadvantage. After all, a lot of KOs are scored in neutral as well as advantage and even disadvantage. Of course, if being in advantage makes your KO potential that much more scary relative to other characters, then it's relevant in this case. Falcon, ZSS and Fox all have some pretty ridiculous kill setups in advantage and it was a factor for them too, while Ness can land grabs, uairs or gimps much more easily on characters who are recovering offstage or landing on the stage from above. Sheik on the other hand really just has too good of a combo game. Anyway, Diddy, Ganondorf, Lucario, Bowser, DK and Dedede all really benefit from advantage to score a KO because of how scary they are to begin with and would likely be among the next 5-10 along with Yoshi and Pikachu.

 

[Antonykun]

If you want to evaluate a character's capabilities ... at this point you should be starting discussion about [key-] matchups of characters and see if a consensus [or at least a compromise] can be reached between knowledgable and top-level players of both characters. It's more conclusive than randomly throwing out opinions on character X being top Y in the game and hope random dude Z agrees.

When I posted my opinions on Fox matchups, I realized that there generally wasn't a high amount of disagreement. Nakat, who is arguably the most representative Fox player around, agreed with most of them - especially the ones against characters that are considered very strong by most people. The fact that nobody seemed to have any major disagreements with it is pretty helpful too because it gives as a solid glimpse on what his matchups look like and draw conclusions from that. I'm going to do the same thing with Shulk now - based on my experience - and see what people think. Unfortunately there's no real equivalent to what Nakat is to Fox / Ness so it's a bit more up in the air:

Solid disadvantage: Diddy Kong, Mii Brawler
Minor disadvantage: Fox, Pikachu, Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic
Even: Cpt. Falcon, [Dark] Pit, Greninja, Ike, Ness, Pac-Man, ROB, Wario, Yoshi, ZSS
Minor advantage: Bowser, DK, Kirby, Link, Little Mac, Lucario, Marth, Mega Man, Peach, Toon Link, Villager
Solid advantage: Bowser Jr., Doctor Mario, Ganondorf, DDD, Lucina, Meta Knight, Mii Swordfighter, Mr. G&W, Robin, Samus, WFT, Zelda

Left out the characters that I have literally no experience against - Mario, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Palutena, Gunner;

I kinda want to say that Swordfighter doesn't have such a bad MU against Shulk but I really don't have as much experience with him. I can argue that Shuriken of Light can pin him down while you try to get in/out.

 

[|RK|]

Anyone wanna talk about Kirby? I see wildly varying opinions about him in different places. I'm just starting to warm up to him in this game, and I'm interested in his prospects.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think is alot like because they both struggle getting in( less than ) but once they do get in they do alot of damage

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I kinda want to say that Swordfighter doesn't have such a bad MU against Shulk but I really don't have as much experience with him. I can argue that Shuriken of Light can pin him down while you try to get in/out.

I used the term "solid advantage" on purpose because it's a bit vague and doesn't necessarily imply that the matchup is straight-up bad in a strict sense.

 

[Raziek]

Solid advantage: Bowser Jr., Doctor Mario, Ganondorf, DDD, Lucina, Meta Knight, Mii Swordfighter, Mr. G&W, Robin, Samus, WFT, Zelda

Left out the characters that I have literally no experience against - Mario, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Palutena, Gunner;

*raises eyebrow*

Robin beats Shulk slightly. Even at best.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

Charizard 2nd to bottom on the list... W-why?!! I've never really been one for tier lists, I've always picked the characters I liked rather than the ones that were good (and have lost many a tourney for it) but I gotta ask... How is Charizard that 2nd from bottom? I get that he has a large hurt box which naturally sucks and all the end lag on most his aerials is atrocious. But what else makes him so terrible? I'm not saying he's great but he seems pretty solid this go round. He's not good in neutral but he's surprisingly great in advantage and is fantastic off stage. All of his specials are incredibly useful, 3 of which are armored, 2 have super armor. The main reason I'm asking this is that there seemed to be no questions asked about why Zard is not only bad but the worst in the game ( not including miis). It's almost as if the community unanimously said, " yup... That guy sucks." And moved on, no questions asked. Which resulted in a monumental deficit for attention for charizard. Like, the charizard character forums are as barren as mars...

So basically... Why do guys think charizard is that bad? And I would like another reason other than "he's a stupid fatty" or " he's a lesser bowser." He's NOT just another form of bowser, they share only 3 things in common and those similarities are: Same b move, both heavy, and same-ish fair. That's it. So not that please...

As someone who seconded Zard (Trainer technically but Zard was my favorite)... second from the bottom makes sense for him.

You kind or brushed off the end lag for his aerials, but it's a big deal. Nair is the only one that can sort of be used as an approach. Fair is too laggy to hit a standing opponent without leaving yourself vulnerable, bair is awfully slow. Uair is ok, but it doesn't have any real horizontal range.

His specials are not all incredibly useful, they're all situationally useful. Fire breath unfortunately is not as good as in Brawl since Zard stumbles back a little when he connects. Useful for edgeguarding and against other heavies. Flare Blitz prevents players from wrecklessly throwing out moves, and helps against some projectile spam, but ultimately is too telegraphed to be used reliably, and leaves you vulnerable on a miss. It's an interesting mobility option, so maybe something will come of that. Rock smash doesn't whittle shields the same way it did in Brawl, and it doesn't push them back much. The super armor is nice, and it could still do crazy damage if you hit it just right, but it's risky to use, and you can't use it to jump in like you (sort of) could in Brawl. Fly is an above average recovery/attack move due to super armor, and it's nice for punishing careless spot dodges.

What separates Zard from other heavies is that he's not all that powerful. Forward Smash won't KO Mario on the center of FD till about 85% (with Zard also at 85). Bowser's FSmash will do it at about 70. Aside from that, Zards attacks won't KO at center stage till about 120% or so.

Zard suffers from a lot of the weaknesses of other heavies, in that he needs a good read to do any sort of damage, but he doesn't have the advantage of being able to end opponent stocks really early. Nor does he have a moderately useful projectile like Dedede. His grab game seems weaker than in Brawl.

Zard just has a lot of weaknesses, and not a lot of strengths to balance them out.

 

[meleebrawler]

As someone who seconded Zard (Trainer technically but Zard was my favorite)... second from the bottom makes sense for him.

You kind or brushed off the end lag for his aerials, but it's a big deal. Nair is the only one that can sort of be used as an approach. Fair is too laggy to hit a standing opponent without leaving yourself vulnerable, bair is awfully slow. Uair is ok, but it doesn't have any real horizontal range.

His specials are not all incredibly useful, they're all situationally useful. Fire breath unfortunately is not as good as in Brawl since Zard stumbles back a little when he connects. Useful for edgeguarding and against other heavies. Flare Blitz prevents players from wrecklessly throwing out moves, and helps against some projectile spam, but ultimately is too telegraphed to be used reliably, and leaves you vulnerable on a miss. It's an interesting mobility option, so maybe something will come of that. Rock smash doesn't whittle shields the same way it did in Brawl, and it doesn't push them back much. The super armor is nice, and it could still do crazy damage if you hit it just right, but it's risky to use, and you can't use it to jump in like you (sort of) could in Brawl. Fly is an above average recovery/attack move due to super armor, and it's nice for punishing careless spot dodges.

What separates Zard from other heavies is that he's not all that powerful. Forward Smash won't KO Mario on the center of FD till about 85% (with Zard also at 85). Bowser's FSmash will do it at about 70. Aside from that, Zards attacks won't KO at center stage till about 120% or so.

Zard suffers from a lot of the weaknesses of other heavies, in that he needs a good read to do any sort of damage, but he doesn't have the advantage of being able to end opponent stocks really early. Nor does he have a moderately useful projectile like Dedede. His grab game seems weaker than in Brawl.

Zard just has a lot of weaknesses, and not a lot of strengths to balance them out.

Because edge-guarding isn't a thing.

Zard is slightly less strong because he dashes quite quickly
for a heavy and has two midair jumps which lets him juggle
and edge-guard more flexibly than other heavies.

There's more to him than just trying to land big hits.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

*raises eyebrow*

Robin beats Shulk slightly. Even at best.

I presume at skill cap its even.
Shulk has greater spacing requirements in the match up but he has everything he needs to combat Robin.
This guy my friend introduced me to last week plays Robin and we're going back and forth but with each loss it's always "I inputted that wrong, if I capitalized on that." phrasing like that. Shulk doesn't have an advantage though. I don't want to say Shulk work harders, but the skill floor for success is in Robins favor.

Mario, Luigi, Jigglypuff, Palutena, Gunner;

Can I ballpark this?
Even or disadvantage against Puff. Frankly I dont think Shulk wants to deal with her, I certainly don't. Half your kit is rest bait. I want to experiment with Buster more against her because I need more Safe on shield ****. The spacing is irrelevant she's too fast with a damn strong punishment game if you goof. Smash up air kills at like 70% though.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

As someone who seconded Zard (Trainer technically but Zard was my favorite)... second from the bottom makes sense for him.

You kind or brushed off the end lag for his aerials, but it's a big deal. Nair is the only one that can sort of be used as an approach. Fair is too laggy to hit a standing opponent without leaving yourself vulnerable, bair is awfully slow. Uair is ok, but it doesn't have any real horizontal range.

His specials are not all incredibly useful, they're all situationally useful. Fire breath unfortunately is not as good as in Brawl since Zard stumbles back a little when he connects. Useful for edgeguarding and against other heavies. Flare Blitz prevents players from wrecklessly throwing out moves, and helps against some projectile spam, but ultimately is too telegraphed to be used reliably, and leaves you vulnerable on a miss. It's an interesting mobility option, so maybe something will come of that. Rock smash doesn't whittle shields the same way it did in Brawl, and it doesn't push them back much. The super armor is nice, and it could still do crazy damage if you hit it just right, but it's risky to use, and you can't use it to jump in like you (sort of) could in Brawl. Fly is an above average recovery/attack move due to super armor, and it's nice for punishing careless spot dodges.

What separates Zard from other heavies is that he's not all that powerful. Forward Smash won't KO Mario on the center of FD till about 85% (with Zard also at 85). Bowser's FSmash will do it at about 70. Aside from that, Zards attacks won't KO at center stage till about 120% or so.

Zard suffers from a lot of the weaknesses of other heavies, in that he needs a good read to do any sort of damage, but he doesn't have the advantage of being able to end opponent stocks really early. Nor does he have a moderately useful projectile like Dedede. His grab game seems weaker than in Brawl.

Zard just has a lot of weaknesses, and not a lot of strengths to balance them out.

I'm gonna have to disagree with a lot of what you said. The endlag from his moves sucks, but nair makes up for this (as you mentioned) but fair does as well. Both of these moves can be auto-canceled from a shorthop, making the lag you were talking almost non existent. Use bair offstage, not on the stage unless you know its going to connect. I don't really think it matters that much how much it takes to kill at the very center of the stage especially since Charizard wants to get people off stage, but just as a reference point, bair will kill mario sweetspotted, center stage, 64%.

I also strongly disagree with what you said about his specials. Flamethrower is much better than is was in brawl due to how much you can angle it now, and the new traits of flamethrower actually help him out. Charizard doesn't like people being right in front of his face, and also in Brawl by the time Flamethrower ended, since it didn't push him away from his enemy, your opponent could often run up and punish the end lag of the move, something that just doesn't happen anymore if you use it correctly. I'll admit that Flare Blitz is overrated and its uses are situational, but in those situations it's godlike. First it's a great recovery, would be one of the best if he didn't hurt himself in the process. If you sweetspot the ledge than you are almost ungimpable. Because Charizard has super armor everywhere on his body during the move (the active hitbox only has heavy armor) you can practically nullify even the most potent of offstage games. And if you sweet spot the ledge, Chard only takes 4% damage upon activation, which is a small price to pay if you ask me in exchange for being almost ungimpable. FB is easy to spot and block on reaction, so it's uses don't really cover when Chard is in disadvantage and neutral, but in advantage its fantastic. Enemy over committing to projectiles? Flare Blitz. Rolling too much? Flare Blitz. Need a reliable tech chase option? Flare Blitz. Enemy used their double jump and is landing on stage? Flare Blitz. (usually an air dodge can't work here because Chard's hitbox lasts the duration of the dodge and then some. Sometimes. It's all about timing, but you can condition people easily for a more reliable hit.) In extension to the last one, miss your Flare Blitz double jump chase because your opponent used his recovery move to dodge it? Flare Blitz AGAIN in the opposite direction, actually making for a more reliable hit. Enemy recovering too high? Flare Blitz. Instant death. (If you are at least two steps away from the ledge when you FB, you cannot self destruct. Of course, this varies from stage to stage, but I've tested it on FD stages, battlefield, and smashville) And my personal favorite, enemy respecting your dair/other aerial options too much off stage and recovers low? Jump over them, fast fall, Flare Blitz towards the stage just barely below the ledge. Stage spiked(nuked). Instant death no matter what. Nobody here is saying FB is the best move or anything, but you'll be hard pressed to convince me that it's anything but a great attack.

Rock Smash is underrated. It's almost like a completely different move now, but just cause you can't use it like you used to people are underselling it. I think you're kinda shrugging off the fact that it's got crazy super armor throughout the duration of the move. Rock smash can single handedly turn a bad situation into a great situation. A good hit can do 35% which is no laughing matter. The sliding rock smash tech increases it's utility. Like all his other special moves, it's great if you use it sparingly. Fly is good because not only is it armor, but it can kill extremely quick. jab jab up b combos to certain percents, and fly can kill at 70% (not factoring in move stale). Though as far as distance goes, it's pretty average as a recovery, especially when compared to large chunk of the cast. The two jumps help a little...

I don't know what you mean by not powerful. Charizard has PLENTY of moves that kill FARRR below 120%. F-smash (which I think is better than Bowser's because it's faster and has invincibility frames not just super armor), d-smash(not a great move though, disgusting end lag) U-Smash (can be used out of shield), Bair(not a could option here), Uair, Flare Blitz(76% Mario center stage, fresh) Fly (also an OoS option), Rock Smash (though not a great choice here). And that's just center stage. One of the things Charizard has over other heavies is his fantastic offstage game. They're easy to land and space, courtesy of his multiple jumps, and if you can hit by any of them (not named nair or fair. though fair can still kill, it'll be most likely stale cause it's a great spacing tool) you're gone. If you get touched by a sweet spotted bair offstage... that my friend is certain death. Another thing that sets him apart from other heavies is that Charizard is that KING of trading. Though heavies can naturally live long due to how fat they are, Charizard's got super armor on his kit in all the right places. With a good read, Charizard can COMPLETELY IGNORE death flat out with this. I think he'a berserker of sorts, and that's what sets him apart. If used correctly Chard can live up to higher percents than the rest of the cast (This does NOT mean he can survive longer. as much of his damage given comes from FB recoil or trading.) Chard's already one of the most physically powerful characters, so when Charizard gets in rage mode, ohhh boy. It's scary.

Basically... I'm not saying Charizard is top tier. Not saying he's high tier. I'm not even saying he's MID TIER! (though I hope he will be ) All I'm saying is that there's no way he's like the worst in the game... Well maybe there is a way he's worst in the game haha, but I'm not convinced.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

*raises eyebrow*

Robin beats Shulk slightly. Even at best.

Shulk doesn't lose to a character as bad as Robin.

 

[Ffamran]

Shulk doesn't lose to a character as bad as Robin.

Mind explaining why because vague comments are the worst.

 

[xgina]

*raises eyebrow*

Robin beats Shulk slightly. Even at best.

pfft........... that all you got?

*teleports behind you*
*unsheathes eyebrow*
*unleashes super move: condescending look conveyed through text*

heh........... nothin personnel.............. kid

 

[Raziek]

Shulk doesn't lose to a character as bad as Robin.

I'm gonna give you a chance to explain yourself before I drop the book Ryker and I wrote on this match-up.

 

[Kofu]

I'm gonna give you a chance to explain yourself before I drop the book Ryker and I wrote on this match-up.

It's funny because Robin drops his tomes when they're used up!

Anyway, if Robin is bad then Snake was bad in Brawl. Not a straight comparison, but they're both characters with poor/mediocre mobility who hit hard in close range, who you don't want to leave to their own devices, and who both get juggled pretty hard.

 

[Thinkaman]

Anyway, if Robin is bad then Snake was bad in Brawl. Not a straight comparison, but they're both characters with poor/mediocre mobility who hit hard in close range, who you don't want to leave to their own devices, and who both get juggled pretty hard.

Not sure I agree. Snake had surprising mobility even if he was not remotely nimble, and didn't behave the same way.

In most matchups a Snake just watching at you is threatening as hell, but Robin isn't at all.

Meanwhile, leaving Snake "to his on devices" isn't really super awful. Robin gets a 31% piercing global-range super nuke with KO power. Snake gets... grenades? Annoying, but not comparable.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Anyone comparing Robin to Snake have clearly never used Snake at all.

 

[Kofu]

Not sure I agree. Snake had surprising mobility even if he was not remotely nimble, and didn't behave the same way.

In most matchups a Snake just watching at you is threatening as hell, but Robin isn't at all.

Meanwhile, leaving Snake "to his on devices" isn't really super awful. Robin gets a 31% piercing global-range super nuke with KO power. Snake gets... grenades? Annoying, but not comparable.

Snake gets to set up his traps, but you're probably right. It was just the first comparison that came to mind. Robin's air speed is decent but awful ground mobility. Snake at least had DACUS to get around in a jiffy.

EDIT: I didn't really use Snake and the point of the post was to make comparisons of what I perceive as Robin's weaknesses to Snake's. Don't hurt me

 

[Luco]

Well Snake had B-reverse grenades to mitigate the juggling issue but yeah, most characters still gave him a hard time.

Robin has never felt that bad to me. Can you imagine what Ness would be like if PK Fire burst on shield? Seriously, i'm glad this character doesn't have the same mobility or kill potential (though Robin's is still nothing to scoff at) as Ness or I would be shouting from the heavens that this character is a sleeper top 5. Or something.

 

[Smog Frog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKFyOs2TTmg

lucario won at xanadu
discuss

 

[Thinkaman]

Snake gets to set up his traps, but you're probably right. It was just the first comparison that came to mind. Robin's air speed is decent but awful ground mobility. Snake at least had DACUS to get around in a jiffy.

EDIT: I didn't really use Snake and the point of the post was to make comparisons of what I perceive as Robin's weaknesses to Snake's. Don't hurt me

No, I appreciate the comparison for what it was. Robin's movement speed (or complete lack of therefore) really is defining. But I think his kit is very unique in Smash, and hard to compare to anyone else.

Frankly, this is true of most the new characters. Most comparisons you could try to make are dubious. (Palutena is like... Sonic? Bowser Jr. is like... Game & Watch? Pac-Man is like... Samus? None of these really hold up at all.)

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Shulk doesn't lose to a character as bad as Robin.

Are you high? You have a HELLA inflated opinion of Shulk. First, this match-up is even at the absolute best for Shulk. Your match-up chart shows either a lack of understanding for Shulk or half the cast. Captain Falcon, for example, should beat Shulk cleanly. I think you highly undersell Marth in that list and, by extension, Lucina. Have you ever played Shulk vs. a DK worth a damn (read: Will)? Why in God's name do you not have him losing to Kirby?

Those are just a couple of the grievous examples.

I love you, and I enjoy talking to you, but the post I just quoted is so gross I need to go take a shower.

What a ****ing jokah.

Peace.

 

[Ffamran]

Are you high? You have a HELLA inflated opinion of Shulk. First, this match-up is even at the absolute best for Shulk. Your match-up chart shows either a lack of understanding for Shulk or half the cast. Captain Falcon, for example, should beat Shulk cleanly. I think you highly undersell Marth in that list and, by extension, Lucina. Have you ever played Shulk vs. a DK worth a damn (read: Will)? Why in God's name do you not have him losing to Kirby?

Those are just a couple of the grievous examples.

I love you, and I enjoy talking to you, but the post I just quoted is so gross I need to go take a shower.

What a ****ing jokah.

Peace.

The match-up chart even lacks one fighter who he said was bad and never defended why: .

Personally, with Falco's sluggishness and range compared to Shulk, I think Falco is at a disadvantage. Granted, if Falco can get in, then Falco has the advantage because of raw power. I'm not a good Falco player, so take what I said with a grain of salt.

 

[Kofu]

No, I appreciate the comparison for what it was. Robin's movement speed (or complete lack of therefore) really is defining. But I think his kit is very unique in Smash, and hard to compare to anyone else.

Frankly, this is true of most the new characters. Most comparisons you could try to make are dubious. (Palutena is like... Sonic? Bowser Jr. is like... Game & Watch? Pac-Man is like... Samus? None of these really hold up at all.)

This is true. If anything, the development team did a great job of making the newcomers (barring the clones) quite distinct in their playstyles. The similarities I see between Snake and Robin are: mobility, damage output and power (for Robin, this requires the Levin Sword and while it's not direct as Snake was stronger, I think it still holds a bit of water), disjoints, and stage control and pressure.

Snake had a lot more cheese than Robin does though, that's for sure.

 

[Mr. Johan]

That was the intent Sakurai was likely going for in this installment: make every newcomer bring something truly new to the table. (Except and , because reasons I guess). was probably the easiest to bring in due to Smash as-of-then lacking one of the big points of Fire Emblem.

It just turned out that the big point would be constructed as a weakness, so Sakurai gave Robin basically one of, if not the strongest (in KB values) aerial kit in the game with the Levin Sword as compensation.

 

[YAYCONFORMITY]

I'm gonna have to disagree with a lot of what you said. The endlag from his moves sucks, but nair makes up for this (as you mentioned) but fair does as well. Both of these moves can be auto-canceled from a shorthop, making the lag you were talking almost non existent. Use bair offstage, not on the stage unless you know its going to connect. I don't really think it matters that much how much it takes to kill at the very center of the stage especially since Charizard wants to get people off stage, but just as a reference point, bair will kill mario sweetspotted, center stage, 64%.

I also strongly disagree with what you said about his specials. Flamethrower is much better than is was in brawl due to how much you can angle it now, and the new traits of flamethrower actually help him out. Charizard doesn't like people being right in front of his face, and also in Brawl by the time Flamethrower ended, since it didn't push him away from his enemy, your opponent could often run up and punish the end lag of the move, something that just doesn't happen anymore if you use it correctly. I'll admit that Flare Blitz is overrated and its uses are situational, but in those situations it's godlike. First it's a great recovery, would be one of the best if he didn't hurt himself in the process. If you sweetspot the ledge than you are almost ungimpable. Because Charizard has super armor everywhere on his body during the move (the active hitbox only has heavy armor) you can practically nullify even the most potent of offstage games. And if you sweet spot the ledge, Chard only takes 4% damage upon activation, which is a small price to pay if you ask me in exchange for being almost ungimpable. FB is easy to spot and block on reaction, so it's uses don't really cover when Chard is in disadvantage and neutral, but in advantage its fantastic. Enemy over committing to projectiles? Flare Blitz. Rolling too much? Flare Blitz. Need a reliable tech chase option? Flare Blitz. Enemy used their double jump and is landing on stage? Flare Blitz. (usually an air dodge can't work here because Chard's hitbox lasts the duration of the dodge and then some. Sometimes. It's all about timing, but you can condition people easily for a more reliable hit.) In extension to the last one, miss your Flare Blitz double jump chase because your opponent used his recovery move to dodge it? Flare Blitz AGAIN in the opposite direction, actually making for a more reliable hit. Enemy recovering too high? Flare Blitz. Instant death. (If you are at least two steps away from the ledge when you FB, you cannot self destruct. Of course, this varies from stage to stage, but I've tested it on FD stages, battlefield, and smashville) And my personal favorite, enemy respecting your dair/other aerial options too much off stage and recovers low? Jump over them, fast fall, Flare Blitz towards the stage just barely below the ledge. Stage spiked(nuked). Instant death no matter what. Nobody here is saying FB is the best move or anything, but you'll be hard pressed to convince me that it's anything but a great attack.

Rock Smash is underrated. It's almost like a completely different move now, but just cause you can't use it like you used to people are underselling it. I think you're kinda shrugging off the fact that it's got crazy super armor throughout the duration of the move. Rock smash can single handedly turn a bad situation into a great situation. A good hit can do 35% which is no laughing matter. The sliding rock smash tech increases it's utility. Like all his other special moves, it's great if you use it sparingly. Fly is good because not only is it armor, but it can kill extremely quick. jab jab up b combos to certain percents, and fly can kill at 70% (not factoring in move stale). Though as far as distance goes, it's pretty average as a recovery, especially when compared to large chunk of the cast. The two jumps help a little...

I don't know what you mean by not powerful. Charizard has PLENTY of moves that kill FARRR below 120%. F-smash (which I think is better than Bowser's because it's faster and has invincibility frames not just super armor), d-smash(not a great move though, disgusting end lag) U-Smash (can be used out of shield), Bair(not a could option here), Uair, Flare Blitz(76% Mario center stage, fresh) Fly (also an OoS option), Rock Smash (though not a great choice here). And that's just center stage. One of the things Charizard has over other heavies is his fantastic offstage game. They're easy to land and space, courtesy of his multiple jumps, and if you can hit by any of them (not named nair or fair. though fair can still kill, it'll be most likely stale cause it's a great spacing tool) you're gone. If you get touched by a sweet spotted bair offstage... that my friend is certain death. Another thing that sets him apart from other heavies is that Charizard is that KING of trading. Though heavies can naturally live long due to how fat they are, Charizard's got super armor on his kit in all the right places. With a good read, Charizard can COMPLETELY IGNORE death flat out with this. I think he'a berserker of sorts, and that's what sets him apart. If used correctly Chard can live up to higher percents than the rest of the cast (This does NOT mean he can survive longer. as much of his damage given comes from FB recoil or trading.) Chard's already one of the most physically powerful characters, so when Charizard gets in rage mode, ohhh boy. It's scary.

Basically... I'm not saying Charizard is top tier. Not saying he's high tier. I'm not even saying he's MID TIER! (though I hope he will be ) All I'm saying is that there's no way he's like the worst in the game... Well maybe there is a way he's worst in the game haha, but I'm not convinced.

Eh... I'm not going to say much more, cause after testing some things, I feel you probably know Charizard better than me. Maybe I have to give him another chance. However, I will say that I'm not sure how you're getting the percentages. Unless the Wii U version is very different than the 3DS version, Flare Blitz isn't killing for me until about 115-120 on Mario. Bair isn't killing till way after 100 even sweetspotted. Offstage is a different story, but a good chunk of the game's Bairs will kill you offstage, so that's not unique.

Also, I feel that most of the situations you give for flareblitzing are off of reads, and most characters could do as much with a read or more. With Flamethrower pushing you back, its potential damage is a bit too low for the commitment it takes.

 

[Shammonx]

I'd like to Bring up ROB for discussion if anyone would be interested. I haven't found an awful match up yet, but I must admit the vast majority of my experiences have been devoid of a good amount of the available characters. I rarely see Bowser Jr, Robin, WFT, Villager, Megaman, and quiet a few other characters. So do you guys think ROB has any weakness or not?