Character Competitive Impressions

[Xsyven]

Nana is also at least somewhat competent at staying on the stage. Luma falls off of it pretty much if you blow on her. Basically just blow on Luma, and that's 16 seconds in which she is off the stage (counting her free fall tumbling animation).

I woudn't say Nana is good at recovering either... and she never comes back.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't think your video is legit... I mean the Rosalina player fight the falco for a good 30 sec without recalling luma next to him. Luma is just chilling there and they are playing neutral and he doenst call it back. The desync is real and the player isnt even playing with luma lol He seem to just don't care. Most player today keep Luma close or desync it just for a small moment.

Fair enough, I did note it was very meh gameplay.

I woudn't say Nana is good at recovering either... and she never comes back.

Luma literally can't recover at all if it's hit offstage, Nana at least has a second jump and the weird Belay hop thing.

 

[Signia]

Ice Climbers were also dumb, so comparing them doesn't do you any favors anyway.

 

[NairWizard]

To bring the subject back to competitive play, what do people think about Rosalina's situation in the tier list after this nerf, if it is indeed real?

 

[Espy Rose]

Does it really matter?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To bring the subject back to competitive play, what do people think about Rosalina's situation in the tier list after this nerf, if it is indeed real?

Diddy I think is the big winner, being an already high-tier candidate who gets to use some of his best options again.

 

[PK Gaming]

To bring the subject back to competitive play, what do people think about Rosalina's situation in the tier list after this nerf, if it is indeed real?

I still think she'll be a strong contender, but she lost a lot of the jank that made her "really good." As you've noted in the past, the luma respawn time adds up, and she's now vulnerable to grabs (which are a big deal).

All in all, i'm feeling good about the Rosalina. Her main problems were addressed, but they didn't go overboard.

 

[Yokoblue]

To bring the subject back to competitive play, what do people think about Rosalina's situation in the tier list after this nerf, if it is indeed real?

I think she will fall next to the old high tier or potential top like Bowser Little Mac etc... It think she will still be high tier but not top 2 like before, I would put her top 10 now but we have to play to really see

 

[DanGR]

Just here confirming that you can still control Luma in hitstun. And during my short Wii-U smash experience yesterday I was wondering why I had a difficult time hitting people when they grabbed me. The speculation seems to be true.

I main her right now and I'm okay with the change, but I probably won't use her anymore if Nintendo goes much further with Luma nerfs. (i.e. no control of Luma when she's away from me or some garbage like that.)

She's a puppet character. Intuitively, I expect Luma to be able to act on her own during grabs if she can also act on her own during Rosalina being in hitstun. Nerfs, if any, should happen in other areas. But that's just my opinion.

On the 3ds version, the Luma anti-grab measures can be played around: fast throws, pummels with good hitboxes, throwing Rosalina into Luma, grabbing her from behind, pivotgrabs (why are so few using this option from a standstill???)

 

[NairWizard]

Does it really matter?

Sure, I'm more interested in thinking about the effects on her matchups than whether or not the nerf was justified, at least in this topic.

@ ParanoidDrone , I agree on Diddy. His worst matchup was Rosalina (not that it'll be easy now, but it's a lot easier).

Another really big winner is Ness, I think. This is probably his worst top-tier matchup, and with this kind of nerf it becomes substantially easier--he has pretty solid tools for getting rid of Luma (bat and PK fire), and now that he can grab-KO Rosalina just a little bit easier (without worry about Luma being around to knock him out of his grab), I'd say even with the recovery gimp this matchup may become pretty decent for him (like 55:45, if not 50:50, since that recovery thing is still a pretty big deal). Given Ness' already-positive matchups against many of the other upper-tier characters, this may make Ness a much bigger threat in tourney.

(why are so few using this option from a standstill???)

3ds controls. Pivot grabs often become pivot f-tilts for many people.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sure, I'm more interested in thinking about the effects on her matchups than whether or not the nerf was justified, at least in this topic.

@ ParanoidDrone , I agree on Diddy. His worst matchup was Rosalina (not that it'll be easy now, but it's a lot easier).

Another really big winner is Ness, I think. This is probably his worst top-tier matchup, and with this kind of nerf it becomes substantially easier--he has pretty solid tools for getting rid of Luma (bat and PK fire), and now that he can grab-KO Rosalina just a little bit easier (without worry about Luma being around to knock him out of his grab), I'd say even with the recovery gimp this matchup may become pretty decent for him (like 55:45, if not 50:50, since that recovery thing is still a pretty big deal). Given Ness' already-positive matchups against many of the other upper-tier characters, this may make Ness a much bigger threat in tourney.

It's weird, I find myself liking the idea of Ness being top tier a lot more than Diddy or Yoshi. (Yoshi in particular being top tier just sounds...weird.) I suspect this sort of bias may be something everyone shares to various degrees.

</tangent>

Other characters that may enjoy this nerf more than most: Ganondorf (Flame Choke), Kirby (Inhale), Yoshi (Egg Lay). Spitballing somewhat but those are the first few command grabs that came to mind. Are there any other grab-centric characters I missed?

(Off topic: Anyone else getting DDOS protection errors from Cloud Flare? Two popped up as I was typing this.)

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Rosalina is wide, that broad gown is a hit box.

And I didn't say that she was weak, I was pointing out how Luma is there to make her not weak, in combination with her aerials (her having good aerials is justified because you're not going to be doing as much with Luma in the air - it also come naturally enough with her size that her aerials would have some effectiveness, since she has long legs are three of her aerials are kicks, which automatically gives her a degree of range).



You claim Peach's float doesn't break a rule (i.e. multiple jumps), even though it quite clearly does.

And I was not referring to short hop aerials, Peach can press down + jump from stand still/ground movement to literally float along the ground, and use her aerials along the ground. No other character can literally use multiple aerials in a row at exact ground level. Peach can also let a full aerial come out at ground level, and therefore, perfectly avoid her landing lag. No other character can do this (at least not regularly with all of their aerials). This is definitely breaking a rule. That is, being able to punish ground level aerials thanks to landing lag disabling your opponents movement, something that is a basic mechanic in every Smash game - Peach can use float to completely ignore landing lag - also you seemed OK with Item Toss Cancel, which lets her do the same thing in another fashion, so I'm calling hypocrisy on this "ROSALINA BREAKS RULES, NERF PLOX" mindset.

Same applies to Little Mac but I've already stated time and time again why his stuff is obnoxious, today and in the past.

Keep in mind though - I don't think there is anything wrong with Peach and Little Mac being able to do these things. But if you still think what Rosalina can do is a problem, then you are obligated to think the same about Little Mac and Peach.

Also keep in mind that Peach's Item Toss Cancel doesn't offset any weakness of hers since float already exists, it's just another strength in an otherwise very solid character.



Confirmation bias at it's finest.

Stop with the butthurt, please! This discussion has gone on FAR too long and more whinging isn't gonna make it end any time soon. Just accept that what has happened has happened and work with it.

 

[Conda]

Have you seen Sakurai's latest interview thing? He says Little Mac has the lowest win rate of all characters online, but he's still not going to buff him because he knows a lot of the losses are from people who don't know how to use him properly. He clearly has some idea of what's going on and knows how to interpret data (or has people to interpret data for him), so I wouldn't be doom and gloom.

EDIT: Also, for all we know Luma being able to attack while Rosalina is being grabbed may not have been intended, it's possible the grabbed state is distinct from the hitstun or shield break state and someone forgot to set the "controlLuma=false" flag. Pure speculation but food for thought. (Unless that tip explicitly mentioned grabs in which case never mind.)

This is how I've been seeing it. The 3ds is much different than the Wii U and it's clear there was still some developing and bugfixes that had to be done for the Wii U version. Things like this are not in the classification of reactive nerfs or buffs, but rather final touches to make ingame mechanics closer to the intended mechanics. Aka 'finalization'.

Why are people saying it is too soon for a nerf, when the game hasn't been released yet?

Exactly. If the 3ds version didn't come out, we wouldn't know these practical changes were being made.

 

[ChikoLad]

Stop with the butthurt, please! This discussion has gone on FAR too long and more whinging isn't gonna make it end any time soon. Just accept that what has happened has happened and work with it.

Right back at ya, I'm not butthurt. People just keep quoting me and I respond.

I'm just getting really sick of the hypocrisy that continuously pops up in this thread.

Though if I had to suggest things about Rosalina that may be worth nerfing, since I have not done so yet, I do actually have two:

-The fact that she can GP Olimar's Pikmin after he uses Side B and Smash attacks is too much, I think.
-Not sure how I feel about her being able to use jab to KO.

There is also the DHD bug in relation to GP, but I haven't heard from that in a while, so I assume it's been fixed?

 

[Iron Kraken]

I woudn't say Nana is good at recovering either... and she never comes back.

As @ ParanoidDrone said, Luma literally has no recovery whatsoever. And not only that, but a basic smash attack sends Luma flying incredibly far. Often I'll find Luma taking a hit at the center of the stage, and it's still enough to send Luma flying off. So yes, Luma unlike Nana comes back, but Luma dies much, much easier. I wasn't the one who brought up the Ice Climbers comparison, but if someone wants to talk about how Nana never came back unlike Luma, then this needs to be pointed out.

To bring the subject back to competitive play, what do people think about Rosalina's situation in the tier list after this nerf, if it is indeed real?

For one thing, I'm not quite sure how big of a nerf this is yet. Assuming it's true that Luma can no longer act while Rosalina is grabbed, this certainly means that Rosalina can be pummeled now when her Luma is with her, which she definitely couldn't be before.

As has been mentioned, certain throws automatically worked around Luma shenanigans (for example, Mario's back throw). Now these throws will still be safe to use, and they'll be able to include pummeling you as well.

But the thing is that... in my experience, Luma wasn't able to break Rosalina out of most grab and throws anyway, so long as Rosalina is thrown right away and pummeling is ignored. What Luma was able to reliably do against many throws, however, is punish the opponent right after Rosalina has already been thrown.

And based on what I'm seeing, I'm not so sure this has been changed?

Basically what I'm saying is that in practice, the only thing this seems to change to me is the fact that Rosalina can now be pummeled.

So, to answer your question... I think RosaLuma is still top tier. Before the nerfs she was my pick for #1 overall, but only by a little bit. Now she drops... maybe a place, or two, or three? Personally, I think I would put Diddy #1, RosaLuma #2, and say that characters like Lucario, Sonic, Sheik, Yoshi, Peach, and maybe Ness are all very, very close. This is of course assuming that other characters I mentioned have not been nerfed.

 

[Dabuz]

Rosalina was nerfed enough that it's time to pick up a new top tier~ Probably Peach because that character is absurdly good.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Right back at ya, I'm not butthurt. People just keep quoting me and I respond.

-The fact that she can GP Olimar's Pikmin after he uses Side B and Smash attacks is too much, I think.

....
WHAT!?
Olimar please.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Rosalina was nerfed enough that it's time to pick up a new top tier~ Probably Peach because that character is absurdly good.

Peach is absurdly good, but she has been nerfed. Now she can no longer autocancel landing lag with turnips, and her Fair stales.

 

[Chompjil]

To bring the subject back to competitive play, what do people think about Rosalina's situation in the tier list after this nerf, if it is indeed real?

I'm going that it is real, probably putting the game near to the WiiU's everything, I say she might drop a bit,considering a few seconds is a lot in a fighting game
this actually leads me to another point of discussion, how will the GC controller change things character wise, or at least what you guys think, I know it wont change the physics but certainly how some people play and other aspects

 

[Dabuz]

Peach is absurdly good, but she has been nerfed. Now she can no longer autocancel landing lag with turnips, and her Fair stales.

Unless fair staling makes it unsafe on block when properly spaced, she's still ridiculous.

 

[NairWizard]

Just thinking about some of Ness' non-Rosalina matchups off the top of my head:

• His aerials beat her noncommit aerials like f-air and b-air because his aerials are massive (again probably the best in the game). Needles are not that big of a pain when you're airborne, and his dash attack is better. His up-b harasses her more than her needles harass him imo. She can gimp his recovery with bouncing fish (though it's risky), but on the flipside he kills her very easily. Even or Ness' favor, I think.
  
• They both have tools in the air (Monkey Flip helps Diddy out here), but Diddy has better mobility on the ground, and the banana is slightly more useful than PK Fire I think. Diddy kills at higher percents than Ness does with b-throw but also has an easier time getting setups for kills. I think that this one is in Diddy's favor, but only by a little bit: could be even for Ness.
• B-throw is the bane of this jackal's existence. That's actually all I have to say about the match-up.
  No, seriously. I think it's in Ness' favor because of how early that b-throw kills. Ness' down-b is great against aura sphere camping too, so Lucario has to get in somehow.
  
• ? What exactly happens in this matchup? I'm not sure at all. I've never seen it or played it. I'd imagine that it's pretty even though.
  
• Ness has the tools to deal with Sonic's spindash (just don't block it: always n-air it, PK fire it, or dodge it). Sonic's f-tilt and f-smash are pains but so are all of Ness' aerials (for Sonic). Ground mobility obviously goes to Sonic, though Ness' dashgrab is super fast and that does matter because ultimately I think that the matchup comes down to who kills whom faster--in a battle of b-throws, Ness' is both easier to land and kills earlier.

People just keep quoting me and I respond.

You don't have to respond every time someone quotes you. Imo the better approach is to make your point and leave intelligent people to figure out who's right based on their own common sense. The result of massive quote wars between two people is inevitably either antagonizing each other or just saying, "Let's just agree to disagree; we're both right." The more time you spend defending little pieces of your argument the more you dilute your main point.

 

[DanGR]

Sure, I'm more interested in thinking about the effects on her matchups than whether or not the nerf was justified, at least in this topic.

@ ParanoidDrone , I agree on Diddy. His worst matchup was Rosalina (not that it'll be easy now, but it's a lot easier).

Another really big winner is Ness, I think. This is probably his worst top-tier matchup, and with this kind of nerf it becomes substantially easier--he has pretty solid tools for getting rid of Luma (bat and PK fire), and now that he can grab-KO Rosalina just a little bit easier (without worry about Luma being around to knock him out of his grab), I'd say even with the recovery gimp this matchup may become pretty decent for him (like 55:45, if not 50:50, since that recovery thing is still a pretty big deal). Given Ness' already-positive matchups against many of the other upper-tier characters, this may make Ness a much bigger threat in tourney.

I really disagree. The Rosalina matchup won't change much. In fact, I think most of the matchup is decided from a neutral position, where Rosalina destroys him. Footsies/grabs don't matter if you can't get in.

• Short hop n-air walls and all its tactical variations (aiming for using Rosalina's feet hitbox, SH autocanceled n-airs, SH nairs aiming to hit with Luma's forward hitbox) really limit his aerial options. It's the mixup potential I'm getting at by naming these variations. Aiming for using Luma's forward hitbox (autocanceled and not) is the superior option most of the time.
• Retreating RAR'd side-b is one of the only retreating neutral options in the game that doesn't necessarily sacrifice stage positioning. The default variation is an excellent spacing tool against Ness.
• PK fire's strengths apply primarily to grounded characters, not an airborne Rosalina spacing with n-airs.
• Not to mention just all the better grounded spacing options Rosalina has. It's not pretty.

3ds controls. Pivot grabs often become pivot f-tilts for many people.

Fair enough.

 

[NairWizard]

Rosalina was nerfed enough that it's time to pick up a new top tier~ Probably Peach because that character is absurdly good.

Yeah, I did the same after the Luma timer respawn nerf. You can't play Rosalina as aggressively any more after these nerfs, and playing campy is just too boring for my taste. I think that she'll still be high tier no question, but very likely out of top tier. People are somewhat underestimating the scope of these nerfs and their implications for other characters.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Yeah, I did the same after the Luma timer respawn nerf. You can't play Rosalina as aggressively any more after these nerfs, and playing campy is just too boring for my taste. I think that she'll still be high tier no question, but very likely out of top tier. People are somewhat underestimating the scope of these nerfs and their implications for other characters.

As a RosaLuma main, were you able to consistently knock people out of their grabs before they threw you? I wasn't, at least not if they threw me immediately after grabbing me (they would have to ignore pummeling). Luma was usually able to hit them at the moment after Rosalina has been thrown, and as far as I can tell there is no confirmation that this mechanic has been changed. I think if anything people might be exaggerating the impact of this nerf, unless someone can confirm that Luma can no longer hit opponents immediately after Rosalina has been thrown.

 

[NairWizard]

As a RosaLuma main, were you able to consistently knock people out of their grabs before they threw you? I wasn't, at least not if they threw me immediately after grabbing me. Luma was usually able to hit them at the moment *after* Rosalina has been thrown, and as far as I can tell there is no confirmation that this mechanic has been changed. I think if anything people might be exaggerating the impact of this nerf, unless someone can confirm that Luma can no longer hit opponents immediately after Rosalina has been thrown.

The Luma respawn nerf I think is the bigger of the two nerfs. The grab thing is minor by comparison imo.

Though it should be noted that yes, I could often hit people out of their grabs the moment that they grabbed me. Especially Diddy's side-b. It takes quick reaction time, but it's about as useful as reacting to and spotdodging that side-b (meaning it gives you a second option). It's worth noting that people were also probably going for grabs against you in situations where you were less likely to react, assuming that they were intelligent players; now that your reaction is no longer a factor, people can go for grabs much more often.

I really disagree. The Rosalina matchup won't change much. In fact, I think most of the matchup is decided from a neutral position, where Rosalina destroys him. Footsies/grabs don't matter if you can't get in.

• Short hop n-air walls and all its tactical variations (aiming for using Rosalina's feet hitbox, SH autocanceled n-airs, SH nairs aiming to hit with Luma's forward hitbox) really limit his aerial options. It's the mixup potential I'm getting at by naming these variations. Aiming for using Luma's forward hitbox (autocanceled and not) is the superior option most of the time.
• Retreating RAR'd side-b is one of the only retreating neutral options in the game that doesn't necessarily sacrifice stage positioning. The default variation is an excellent spacing tool against Ness.
• PK fire's strengths apply primarily to grounded characters, not an airborne Rosalina spacing with n-airs.
• Not to mention just all the better grounded spacing options Rosalina has. It's not pretty.

I think that you're underestimating Ness' ability to deal with [insert airborne character here], but you make a good point: I'd like to see more walling tactics from Rosaluma players in the future.

 

[Clemente]

The Luma respawn nerf I think is the bigger of the two nerfs. The grab thing is minor by comparison imo.

I agree. Another 4 seconds per respawn sure adds up to a lot more vulnerability for Rosalina over the course of an entire match. At least I would think so. It's a little strange that it's the other nerf getting people excited.

 

[Iron Kraken]

The Luma respawn nerf I think is the bigger of the two nerfs. The grab thing is minor by comparison imo.

Though it should be noted that yes, I could often hit people out of their grabs the moment that they grabbed me. Especially Diddy's side-b. It takes quick reaction time, but it's about as useful as reacting to and spotdodging that side-b (meaning it gives you a second option). It's worth noting that people were also probably going for grabs against you in situations where you were less likely to react, assuming that they were intelligent players; now that your reaction is no longer a factor, people can go for grabs much more often.

Watching high level play, it seems to me that when Rosalina was grabbed, she was pretty much always successfully thrown. The issue is that right after she was thrown, Luma was able to punish.

Don't get me wrong... like you, I was often able to break out of grabs altogether. But I think this may be the result of opponents who are used to grabbing and not feeling like they need to throw right away, which they absolutely needed to do against RosaLuma. So I think we may have been taking advantage of opponents in this way. But if they threw immediately after grabbing, I'm pretty sure Luma couldn't prevent the throw, and could only punish after the throw has been made.

So, again, to me the only difference this seems to make is that Rosalina can now be pummeled... unless someone confirms that Luma can no longer attack immediately following a throw.

Apparently the Luma respawn time has been increased from 8.75 seconds to 12.55 seconds. Many people were calling it a 5 second increase in respawn time, but it's actually a 3.8 second increase in the respawn time. And I agree, that is significant, because Luma is very easy to knock off the stage. But we disagree on how dramatically this knocks RosaLuma down the totem pole.

 

[popsofctown]

I kinda liked that smash 4 offered a character that doesn't have to play Mario Party every time it gets grabbed. I guess that rests in peace, now.

 

[meleebrawler]

I kinda liked that smash 4 offered a character that doesn't have to play Mario Party every time it gets grabbed. I guess that rests in peace, now.

Except you're still mashing the buttons for Luma to get you out.

Also, in response to long ago post about Peach's unique floating...
Everyone can float with a Super Leaf

 

[Twinkiepuff]

What do u guys think of jigglypuff this game

 

[Thinkaman]

What do u guys think of jigglypuff this game

I like this guy's plan.

Let's talk about Jigglypuff. That sounds absolutely terrific.

Personally, I am worried about the Pound mobility nerfs hurting her in her worst matchups, except those seem better now regardless. Really, I'm holding off on making judgement until I can play her with a GCN controller; she needs a c-stick.

But for the love of God, let's talk about Jigglypuff. Or... Ness, or Pit, or G&W or DHD or Mario or Falcon or anyone without Luma.

 

[Twinkiepuff]

She has rest combos
Thank Jesus

Bair kills so early and if ur edge guarding it kills at 50 omg

Rest kills around 50%

She's not that bad on the ground anymore. Shes not good on the ground but not as bad as she was in melee or brawl.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I like this guy's plan.

But for the love of God, let's talk about Jigglypuff. Or... Ness, or Pit, or G&W or DHD or Mario or Falcon or anyone without Luma.

I agree, this topic needs more solo Rosalina discussion.

 

[meleebrawler]

Shame that sometimes you can be punished for Rest kills
if they explode on death instead of flying somewhere...

 

[Twinkiepuff]

For her customs I use double slap for more damage and range. It does brael shield damage so it's decent for shields but it does 15 damage.

I want to use selfdestruct but idk what to use it for. It's strong but I can't find something for it.

Hyper voice seems very situational. Idk

The rollout customs suck

 

[A2ZOMG]

I like this guy's plan.

Let's talk about Jigglypuff. That sounds absolutely terrific.

Personally, I am worried about the Pound mobility nerfs hurting her in her worst matchups, except those seem better now regardless. Really, I'm holding off on making judgement until I can play her with a GCN controller; she needs a c-stick.

But for the love of God, let's talk about Jigglypuff. Or... Ness, or Pit, or G&W or DHD or Mario or Falcon or anyone without Luma.

I'm feeling slighted whenever you bring it up like that...

I didn't check Duck Hunt's customs, but his recovery and floatiness are very big weaknesses, similar to ROB, and I believe this is the primary thing that works against him competitively. I believe he's better than ROB because he's a smaller target and his neutral game and traps are more versatile, though this comes at a cost of less useful throws. Both are not very good at scoring KOs early, but Duck Hunt has more ways to keep people in really awkward positions.

Japanese footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOM3ecnV7iM

Character actually looks really hard to play really optimally because of the many ways the dynamite can be positioned.

 

[meleebrawler]

For her customs I use double slap for more damage and range. It does brael shield damage so it's decent for shields but it does 15 damage.

I want to use selfdestruct but idk what to use it for. It's strong but I can't find something for it.

Hyper voice seems very situational. Idk

The rollout customs suck

I'm kind of interested in the pound custom that knocks people
sideways, seems devastating in the right circumstances.

 

[Twinkiepuff]

I'm kind of interested in the pound custom that knocks people
sideways, seems devastating in the right circumstances.

It semi spikes them and seems like it's good for characters with recoveries like Ganon, falco, mario, luigi, DHD, etc.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm feeling slighted whenever you bring it up like that...

Heh, it's all intended in good fun. The Mario discussion was frankly some of the best. We just... met our quota for the 3DS-era Mario talk.

And hey look, now we met the quota for a certain astral being too. 2 down; great job everyone!

I didn't check Duck Hunt's customs,

Specifically check both can alts; all 3 cans are really good moves, and different enough to be relevant to his matchup options.

 

[Twinkiepuff]

Does anyone kno what jigglypuffs sing 3, spinphony, does.

I'm planning to use
Rollout
Double-slap
Hyper voice
Self-destruct or rest

Self-destruct is strong but idk what to use it for. What do u guys think it's useful for