Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

I dislike Diddy because his noises annoy me.

So... You don't like (funny) Bruce Lee (noises)?

They complain about them because, for one, Shine is a bull**** move, especially Fox's. Frame 1, jump cancelable, invincibility, combos into many things including itself, frame advantage on block, the list goes on. Add in the fact that both Fox/Falco have two of the best projectiles in the entire game while also having some of the best rushdown, combos, etc, theyre stupid broken *** characters who are only balanced by the fact that they can get 0-deathed by other top tiers.

Well, as of now, Falco's Blaster isn't that broken anymore. It's more like a cowboy quickdraw except with a (weird) long end lag and you can't cancel it so, short-hopping's out of the question unless you're trying to get the right height with it. If anything, Falco's Blaster is like Wolf's in Brawl except without a melee hit and a smaller hitbox - it's a beam while Wolf's is this laser bullet thing.

Add Falco not being able to chaingrab anymore and his Dair having a long start up like most meteor Dairs. Falco plays a bit like Wolf now with his Bair and other changes. Oh, and did I mention how Falco is a rarer bird compared to other characters? People just up and left when they saw that Falco changed compared to Fox getting minor tweaks.

Wait... Fox's Reflector has I-frames? I know Wolf's does and I'm sure Fox and Falco never had I-frames in Melee and Brawl. I don't know about SSB4, though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd put Doc in D tier as well as Mii Swordsman, and leave Olimar in E. I know this sounds really critical but Doc and Swordsman win when they win. Olimar is just...sad. I really think he's basically impossible in this game, and we had a discussion about this before, consensus is that Olimar is...yeah. Doc is below average but Olimar is below below average IMO.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Can't help but imagine Kirby is only smiling just to put up a facade. Deep inside he must be so sad, and hurt for so many people feeling he's so sub-par compared to his pals.

But this is just my imagination when I see his icon.

 

[Ffamran]

I'd put Doc in D tier as well as Mii Swordsman, and leave Olimar in E. I know this sounds really critical but Doc and Swordsman win when they win. Olimar is just...sad. I really think he's basically impossible in this game, and we had a discussion about this before, consensus is that Olimar is...yeah. Doc is below average but Olimar is below below average IMO.

Haha, D-tier. Get it? D-tier for the Doc who doesn't have a Doctorate! ... *cricket noises* ... I'll be in my sad corner.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hey, I can only be honest! I don't think he's anything but below average (which is what D tier represents). He's not AWFUL at all, really. He's certainly not in the same tier as Olimar.

Also what is DK doing in A tier lmao. I think he should be in B or C honestly, A is a bit of a stretch unless factoring customs but even them I'm not sure since Kong Cyclone really works best on Battlefield only.

 

[Jaxas]

I like this idea, definitely. Unfortunately I don't know the cast well enough to place them all like that, so I'm just going to post my personal "Top _" guess (no order to the groups):

Top 5:
Top 10: ()

 

[YeahVeryeah]

See, now, one thing I question is, where do you put ? I feel like hes the kind of character to have some truly awful matchups against one half of the cast and great against the other half. However, the "banned" character list I made included an awful lot of rushdown zone breakers, and with spacing with his dong arms, he might find himself with less glaring flaws.

Also I think is pretty comparable to and would be max 5 characters behind him.... but I thought that before waveslashing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you wanted my personal opinion, DK is about B/C, maybe more than likely B if we factor out the top tiers as you said. Doc would shift up to D, Mario would be at the low end of C if I had to wager and play it safe. Everything else seems about right to me. But I don't see Doc in Olimar tier, not at all.

Olimar has too many problems to not be put in a tier of his own, the ACTUAL bottom tier. Everything else is legitimately low tier. This is just my opinion from my experience so far so it may be limited but...eugh, poor Olimar...

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Wave slashing? What's that?

 

[Jaxas]

Wave slashing? What's that?

Bowser's Custom SideSpecials dash, and basically have WaveDash properties if you use them correctly, meaning Bowser can Wavedash now.
smashboards.com/threads/bowser-with-custom-moves-has-a-legitimate-wavedash.377213

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Olimar has too many problems to not be put in a tier of his own, the ACTUAL bottom tier. Everything else is legitimately low tier. This is just my opinion from my experience so far so it may be limited but...eugh, poor Olimar...

Well, see, I only made as many tiers as I did because of the number of characters. I tried to make as few tiers as possible, breaking up the larger tiers almost arbitrarily just so each one was easy to digest. Doc may not be as bad as Olimar, but this list really isn't that precise.

 

[X3I]

G&W's biggest problem is his KO options are limited and slightly on the weak side, and he's REALLY LIGHT. So basically he rarely ever is able to KO people before they can KO him.

Kit is decent otherwise. Decent range + mobility, some good throw combos, great recovery. He's also a very small target overall.

It's not true, in my opinion... His kill moves on the stage are: Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, Judgement, Bucket, Custom UpB.

All the smashes are safe on block, quick, kills early (avarage of 100%, I would say), with a nice range and priority. The Usmash, with the upper body invincibility, can be landed VERY EASILY when the opponent try to attack you by the air. If the opponent jumps, basically you just have to dash and to land a Usmash. The Dsmash is also a good tool, especially when you DON'T hit with the sweetspot (the angle is insane).

Bucket should inspire fear to some characters (Lucario, Pikachu...). It kills at very low %, and can be combo'ed after a Dthrow.
Judgement is more random, but the 1/9 chance to kill someone after a throw shouldn't be neglected.
I don't know if customs will be allowed in tournament, but if they are... Custom UpB will make you agree with me. It's STRONG.

But the best way to kill with G&W is obviously edgeguarding. I think he has, with Pikachu, the best possibilities for this. Dair covers a lot of space, Fair, Chief... and you probably have the best recovery of the entire game. The dash attack still stagespike, and the Dtilt/Uair makes the opponent free fall quite easily, which means: USMASH.

You still can kill on the stage with Fair or Ftilt, or thanks to a Dthrow... No, really, he doesn't really have a problem to kill. He's light, that's true, but almost unedgeguardable because of his godlike recovery, and he can control you so easily on the stage with Ftilt and UpB...

I think he is a skilled character because mistakes are not allowed (because of his weight) and because his Hit&Run style is complex to understand, but he is definitely strong. His kit covers... everything in this game, I guess.

I'm pretty sure it's Lucario's worst match-up, by the way.

 

[LostinpinK]

I'd like to discuss Palutena a bit more, especially with you guys placing her among the top of non top tier characters.

I've tried maining her for a while, but I ended up being frustrated by quite a lot of matchups. Basically most top tiers + campers that you can't ever grab (Villager, TL...).
I often feel like playing a reverted little mac: mobility and recovery are great, some attacks are godly (jab, fair, bair, uair, dash attack, grab). But a good chunk of her moveset is unusable, namely the 3 tilts. Her smash aren't that great either, a cautious opponent will rarely get hit by Usmash (other than Dthrow setup) because of the ridiculously thin horizontal range. The other smash attacks are alright but with a huge start-up.

Not having tilts is really limiting her oos options, her mix-ups, and her spacing game, and that's a problem, just like Little Mac is predictable because of his restricted moveset. The tilts can only be used to hard read a roll / a spotdodge / a ff air dodge imo, but smashes are a better punishment. I orginally thought that it was not too damageable not to have tilt, especially with such a godly jab, but not being able to deal with opponents on top of you quickly is a huge drawback. Jab is also worthless against light opponents at high %, because they go too far after the first hit and they can hit backbefore you can shield.
I also have troubles using superspeed against characters with projectiles, because they can hit Palutena really easily, while shielding just resets to neutral and is not really easy to perform due to the speed. And a lot of characters have a quick projectile. For example against Sheik, it's not worth using reflect barrier, but super speed is not that efficient either.

She will probably become way better with a gc controller though, since lightweight and super speed are pretty input intensive, and it's hard to space fair / bair for now.

TL,DR: I think Palutena is not that good because she has some great, but limted options that hinders her in her matchups against high / top characters.

 

[Jaxas]

I'd like to discuss Palutena a bit more, especially with you guys placing her among the top of non top tier characters.

I've tried maining her for a while, but I ended up being frustrated by quite a lot of matchups. Basically most top tiers + campers that you can't ever grab (Villager, TL...).
I often feel like playing a reverted little mac: mobility and recovery are great, some attacks are godly (jab, fair, bair, uair, dash attack, grab). But a good chunk of her moveset is unusable, namely the 3 tilts. Her smash aren't that great either, a cautious opponent will rarely get hit by Usmash (other than Dthrow setup) because of the ridiculously thin horizontal range. The other smash attacks are alright but with a huge start-up.

Not having tilts is really limiting her oos options, her mix-ups, and her spacing game, and that's a problem, just like Little Mac is predictable because of his restricted moveset. The tilts can only be used to hard read a roll / a spotdodge / a ff air dodge imo, but smashes are a better punishment. I orginally thought that it was not too damageable not to have tilt, especially with such a godly jab, but not being able to deal with opponents on top of you quickly is a huge drawback. Jab is also worthless against light opponents at high %, because they go too far after the first hit and they can hit backbefore you can shield.
I also have troubles using superspeed against characters with projectiles, because they can hit Palutena really easily, while shielding just resets to neutral and is not really easy to perform due to the speed. And a lot of characters have a quick projectile. For example against Sheik, it's not worth using reflect barrier, but super speed is not that efficient either.

She will probably become way better with a gc controller though, since lightweight and super speed are pretty input intensive, and it's hard to space fair / bair for now.

TL,DR: I think Palutena is not that good because she has some great, but limted options that hinders her in her matchups against high / top characters.

Honestly I'm not sure, but I feel like the thing that could help her out (in comparison to LM) with the lack-of-moves thing is the combination of the fact that she has moves that can mostly cover for the tilts (SH Fair = Ftilt, SH Uair = Utilt), but also more importantly that her weakness does not translate directly to death. Little Mac's weakness means he dies directly, Palutena's just means that she has more limited ways to deal with things.

Now obviously less options is a bad thing, but I think she can cover for them better than LM can. Not sure what it means for her tier placement, though.

Oh, also: with regards to her Smashes, I've just started pretending that when you tap a direction and A she turns into Bowser/Ganon; works pretty well, as that basically just means "only use this for a read or from a setup". More limiting of options, unfortunately, but luckily she does have setups into her kill moves which softens the blow to her viability a bit.

 

[SoulOfKhaos]

See, now, one thing I question is, where do you put ? I feel like hes the kind of character to have some truly awful matchups against one half of the cast and great against the other half. However, the "banned" character list I made included an awful lot of rushdown zone breakers, and with spacing with his dong arms, he might find himself with less glaring flaws.

Also I think is pretty comparable to and would be max 5 characters behind him.... but I thought that before waveslashing.

Waveslashing? What is this a new tech? Is it useful?

 

[WiiFitBurger]

Okay, so, besides finally prying some sonic impressions out of people, we've certainly been gong around in circle with with top tier talk.

In order to help talk about characters that aren't talked about, lets follow the following prompt:

1.04 comes out, and the perceived top tiers get wrecked. Like, Rosalina can't do damage except with Luma, Sonic can't move, Shiek's recovery instantly kills her, the works. Completely nerfed to the point of being competitively irrelevant.

Who are the best characters? Remember, you can't just say that the above top ten counter said character and that makes character bad.

(For this prompt, the following characters are removed from discussion:)


Without these guys, I think a tier list of the wee baby metagame we understand, with the big boys gone, could look something like this:

A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

(jeeze, so many characters, hard to categorize. hopefully, this actually generates talk and can try make sense of the mid tier pile.)

Wii fit trainer is not that least. She should be mid tier at worst. Palutena isn't that good either and ike is probably the worst (sorry to all u ike fans). Falco isn't that high he should be way down. Donkey kong isn't that high either

A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

 

[YeahVeryeah]

A:
B:
D:
E:
F:

Wow, those placements are... shocking. Whose that guy in B tier?

Also, on Gdub.... Isn't he going to run into the same problems as last game? He felt very unchanged from Brawl, and in brawl he suffered from a shallow skillset, afaik. Aren't people going to pretty much know what Dub's going to do all the time, besides when loljudge?

For thinking Lucina is better than Marth, I must say dear sir you are uninformed. And then the "ughh" tier list posts feeling fell in.

Right? They're similar enough that there's no reason to put 10 characters between them

 

[Shaya]

For thinking Lucina is better than Marth, I must say dear sir you are uninformed. And then the "ughh" tier list posts feeling fell in. Why can't we have nice things? :<

Here's an attempt at no-fun (generally alphabetically ordered):

 

[WiiFitBurger]

Wow, those placements are... shocking. Whose that guy in B tier?

Oh oops charizard should be in D but I 100% think that my tier list isn't way off. Palutena isn't that good. A lot of characters can limit her. Ike is slow. His attacks have lots of lag. I feel he's just not good this game. It's hard for him to get in which something an Ike needs to deal damage. Falco is just really bad. He's an irrelevant little Mac. Bad air game. His projectiles R nerfed to the point U can use them to pressure. He's not good.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I remember how everyone was talking about how awesome Duck Hunt Duo is - it's interesting that conversation about this character died so quickly.

Though now that a few weeks have passed and that initial hype has gone, I think we can get a clearer idea of how DHD works. They're still great at keeping out characters, especially those with poor mobility, that much is certain. But IMO, they struggle if a character is able to make it in. Their grab game is unspectacular, their tilts and smashes are pretty slow (except UTilt, but that has much poorer range than the other tilts), and their air game has some pretty huge blindspots (i.e. ANY diagonal angle). And their recovery is so easy for characters with aerial meteor smashes to gimp

IDK, it just seems like DHD has a lot of pretty glaring flaws overall.

 

[WiiFitBurger]

For thinking Lucina is better than Marth, I must say dear sir you are uninformed. And then the "ughh" tier list posts feeling fell in. Why can't we have nice things? :<

Here's an attempt at no-fun (not really ordered):

Wii fit trainer low? Ummm sorry I think she's mid at least and no ones worst than ike. Wii Fit Trainer has combos and can space or camp. She is definitely not in bottom 5. Palutena is really limited and only has a good matchup against some of the cast. I can't see Ike or Dk that high.

 

[X3I]

Also, on Gdub.... Isn't he going to run into the same problems as last game? He felt very unchanged from Brawl, and in brawl he suffered from a shallow skillset, afaik. Aren't people going to pretty much know what Dub's going to do all the time, besides when loljudge?

isn't supposed to "make" the game. When you play as him, you just : run, try to predicts what the opponent is going to do, and act in consequences. He has really huge priority zonning moves (pivot Ftilt beats everything, Bair, UpB and Usmash). But you can also change your game plan to be more offensive, he has a nice pressure game and a nice throw. I don't think he is that much predictable...

 

[Shaya]

Wii fit trainer? Umm sorry I think she's awful. Ike has safe aerials on shield well spaced, an amazing grab game, a significantly more solid recovery than brawl, THE up smash of this game; with his design and tools I really don't see him having overly difficult match ups with anyone (although I don't see him having particularly strong ones either). Everyone has combos and can space and camp. From everything I've seen, she is the most beautifully designed joke/troll character ever put in a fighting game, every hit you get is extremely pleasurable and you have tons of gimmicky actions that allow them, everything good in this game just seems to shut her down from my experiences.

Palutena isn't limited at all, in fact she has an insane amount of options, the best jab and grab game in the cast, 100%. Palutena probably has good match ups with the entire cast.

DK with customs is a monster, and has a kit with hardly any nerfs from Brawl. Having hard match ups with Sheik, Rosalina and Yoshi I thought were not meant to be applicable to these lists anyway.

 

[WiiFitBurger]

Wii fit trainer? Umm sorry I think she's awful.

Please explain this to me and I'll reply to think U think is bad. I'll try to get U a new impression of her. If u can't it's just Ur opinion

 

[meleebrawler]

What is it exactly about Olimar that makes you people think he's so bad?

Reflectable smashes? Who in their right mind would use their reflectors
(offensive ones aside) up close unless you're spamming them?

Smashes and grab are slower? Just stop using them like you did
in Brawl.

The only thing I see REALLY holding him back at this point is
the bad Pikmin AI in the 3DS.

 

[Shaya]

If u can't it's just Ur opinion

You're going to have to personally work a little harder than that, the onus is on you. All I have is your opinion to go by otherwise, which I frankly don't have any reason to trust.

All I know is, is that when you say space and camp and combo, I don't think of Wii Fit Trainer. How about you provide justifications for these claims?
Because I'm pretty sure I can say with confidence all 51 characters in this game can space, camp, and combo; doesn't really persuade anybody, especially me.

The only thing I see REALLY holding him back at this point is
the bad Pikmin AI in the 3DS.

This ultimately. I almost feel like you can just "wait" for the pikmin to **** olimar over with most character's neutral-ish play, the AI/engine just seems to hate him. I don't think his design for this game is doomed to failure, but rather he has been lazily implemented and barely polished. With that in mind, I could see him being around megaman's level (wherever that character ends up) in potency in the future due to patches hopefully cleaning him up a bit and that's without number buffs or likewise.

 

[meleebrawler]

This ultimately. I almost feel like you can just "wait" for the pikmin to **** olimar over with most character's neutral-ish play, the AI/engine just seems to hate him. I don't think his design for this game is doomed to failure, but rather he has been lazily implemented and barely polished. With that in mind, I could see him being around megaman's level (wherever that character ends up) in potency in the future due to patches hopefully cleaning him up a bit.

If nothing else, those dumb pikmin may have helped people realize that
Olimar's non-pikmin attacks are better than in Brawl.

Try Nairing out of shield, people!

 

[YeahVeryeah]

For thinking Lucina is better than Marth, I must say dear sir you are uninformed. And then the "ughh" tier list posts feeling fell in. Why can't we have nice things? :<

Here's an attempt at no-fun (generally alphabetically ordered):

Now, this seems pretty reasonable, outside of a couple things.

Is Marty still that good with all those range and other nerfs? I honestly don't know.

I'd argue that charizard is similar enough to bowser that there should't be a two tier difference

I know that the crater is still smoking in terms of Meta Knight's nerfs, but is he really THAT bad? I'm in the same boat he's been overnerfed, but he's still got world class recovery and some good combos, right? Wouldn't casting him down into the garbage tier nethers be a little severe?

Tier lists or anything close is dangerous to post for a reason, you've practically just paraphrased everything that can come from discussing of any such list.

Yeah, I didn't anticipate these kinds of opinions coming out of the wood work when I made such an easy to digest list. I'm seeing why the more experienced forum-goers weren't putting out lists. Maybe I should have kept it more abstract?

What is it exactly about Olimar that makes you people think he's so bad?

I mean, I don't doubt that he'll be better come GCNcontrol/ balance patches, but he's definitely awful now.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I 100% think that my tier list isn't way off. Palutena isn't that good. A lot of characters can limit her. Ike is slow. His attacks have lots of lag. I feel he's just not good this gam

What is it exactly about Olimar that makes you people think he's so bad?

Reflectable smashes? Who in their right mind would use their reflectors
(offensive ones aside) up close unless you're spamming them?

Smashes and grab are slower? Just stop using them like you did
in Brawl.

The only thing I see REALLY holding him back at this point is
the bad Pikmin AI in the 3DS.

Uh what about the fact that he only has 3 of them and all that means?

 

[Shaya]

His jab, ftilt, dtilt seemed pretty buffed to me. Nair is still good but not doesn't have a short hop auto cancel IIRC. Dash attack/up tilt seem mediocre?

The grab range nerf is pretty brutal though to almost the entirety of why he was such a solid character at base though. With other things not working for him it's kinda a bummer.

Now, this seems pretty reasonable, outside of a couple things.

Is Marty still that good with all those range and other nerfs? I honestly don't know.

He didn't get range nerfs at all though . I think other characters got range buffs, but tbh, it looks like Marth's sword outdisjoints just about everything - still.
Other nerfs are there, true. I think the biggest buff in the world though is the loss of triple jump glitch. I'm still not used to being able to freely act from a ledge... like, 6 years of that being ingrained in me is hard to get over (it isn't easy in melee either, but at least it isn't for a dumb reason). It's where a lot of his struggles stemmed from tbh, being forced to a ledge and being dealt with 20-30 frames of landing lag on his next action no matter what; boy golly.

DB getting kicked back by 3 frame start up probably wasn't enough to change how potent DB is as a punish out of a dash (CONSISTENT %%%)

Some of his rewards for things have been buffed, like forward smash tipper actually being a megaton kill move again, pretty swell (it's also faster start up and less lag than it was in melee/brawl). I think tippering with it is significantly easier than it was in Brawl too.

His capabilities are mostly the same, damage nerfs on staple bread and butter forward air and neutral air are pretty noticeable, but eh, that's not a game breaking type of nerf.

\
I'd argue that charizard is similar enough to bowser that there should't be a two tier difference

I know that the crater is still smoking in terms of Meta Knight's nerfs, but is he really THAT bad? I'm in the same boat he's been overnerfed, but he's still got world class recovery and some good combos, right? Wouldn't casting him down into the garbage tier nethers be a little severe?

I've seen a lot of Bowser's customs and it really makes him a menace, with all of the character counters we've seen taken out of the mix, I think his extremely high/good numbers will polarize him much like Snake.

Meta Knight really does feel that bad. I see potential in some areas, but mostly despair. I've put a lot of game time into him thus far and while having a great move in shuttle loop, and consistent damage through his grabs... that's all I feel he has... yes I feel you must respect MK off stage... but beyond that (i.e. on stage) he genuinely plays like the worst character in the game.

 

[Jabejazz]

They complain about them because, for one, Shine is a bull**** move, especially Fox's. Frame 1, jump cancelable, invincibility, combos into many things including itself, frame advantage on block, the list goes on. Add in the fact that both Fox/Falco have two of the best projectiles in the entire game while also having some of the best rushdown, combos, etc, theyre stupid broken *** characters who are only balanced by the fact that they can get 0-deathed by other top tiers.

Correct. The catch is that a lot of the viewerbase doesn't know that. Take EVO or hell, even Apex. I'm willing to bet a large percentage of the viewers aren't as knowledgeable on the game as you are. All they want to see are fun, exciting and diverse matchups. All they see are multiple copies of the same character.

Wait... Fox's Reflector has I-frames? I know Wolf's does and I'm sure Fox and Falco never had I-frames in Melee and Brawl. I don't know about SSB4, though.

Fox and Falco's shine is invincible (and starts) on frame 1.

 

[Thinkaman]

Try Nairing out of shield, people!

Nair and utilt are like, all I do when I play Olimar.

Olimar having 3 Pikmin isn't bad, but the poor Pikmin AI and the bad responsiveness/unreliability of grabbing Pikmin for your actions is. If Olimar's 3 pikmin had Brawl's behavior and responsiveness, he'd be a non-trivially better character.

MK doesn't feel that bad to me; the harsh nerfs are offset by affinity for this game engine. But, if you transplanted this MK into Brawl, he'd ironically be the worst character in the game.

 

[Nobie]

Meta Knight really does feel that bad. I see potential in some areas, but mostly despair. I've put a lot of game time into him thus far and while having a great move in shuttle loop, and consistent damage through his grabs... that's all I feel he has... yes I feel you must respect MK off stage... but beyond that (i.e. on stage) he genuinely plays like the worst character in the game.

I've been trying to use Meta Knight with limited success. I don't have the experience with the character from Brawl so I can't make comparisons there, but Meta Knight feels like he might be the most unforgiving character in the game.

Every execution flub you make gets magnified 10-fold because of the weird recovery time he has on some moves. Like, if you try to do a tilt or a smash and the game doesn't read it properly due to lag or whatever, then it potentially comes out as a neutral A, which leaves Meta Knight a sitting duck. If you're recovering from off stage and it reads your Up B as a side B, well oops. If you're ON stage and you do the wrong thing, then you're either going to be punished during the free fall or might potentially just fall off the stage. And it's not like Little Mac where it's just a side B issue, it's a factor in all of his specials due to the fact that they all count as recovery moves and all have some pretty gnarly landing lag (aside from non-attacking down B). I know this was a factor with Meta Knight in Brawl too, but I believe his landing lag was better on moves like Mach Tornado? And Meta Knight is light to boot, so he can't just tank hits as Bowser would.

I know that at a sufficiently high level (and with the gamecube controller) some of these issues will go away or be minimized, but it feels like it takes a ton of skill and calm to use him effectively and not accidentally do something super dumb, and even that won't get him into the top tier, maybe mid tier tops.

Another thing is I just can't tell if his down smash is great or terrible. It's quick and does a good amount of damage (though I know it's not as good as in Brawl), but at times it feels almost too quick? I'll see an opponent rolling and try to catch them with the down smash, only for the down smash to finish before the opponent is even done rolling. It's like you have to train yourself to do it not on reaction, but one beat after.

 

[WiiFitBurger]

You're going to have to personally work a little harder than that, the onus is on you. All I have is your opinion to go by otherwise, which I frankly don't have any reason to trust. Tier lists or anything close is dangerous to post for a reason, you've practically just paraphrased everything that can come from discussing of any such list.

All I know is, is that when you say space and camp and combo, I don't think of Wii Fit Trainer. How about you provide justifications for these claims?
Because I'm pretty sure I can say with confidence all 51 characters in this game can space, camp, and combo; doesn't mean a thing to me.

Her sun salutation can punish characters if not careful and it's struggle and its does lots of damage
Her ledge game is amazing, the headers and sun salutation can force her opponents to roll or shield allowed her time to recover. They also make her great at pressure. She can approuch with nair which has near to no landing lag and no start up and be comboed into uair. Deep breathing lets her kill at around 100% and also increases her damage output. Jump hoops goes vertically a decent amount and has a hitbox. Her jab can pitfall U leading to a dtilt or ftilt at mid or high percents. Her ftilt hits both in front and back and the back hitbox launches them up allowing u to combo and the front can push U out and kill at around 120
Dtilt is a great punish tool and is fast. Utilt can start combo. Nair has near to no lag or start up and can juggle an start combos. It's also hard to predict it to come out. Ftilt is interesting, it has a foot and hand hitbox the hand is like a normal attack and has decent range while foot is a spike. uair juggles and can kill near the top and uthrow to uair connects until like 70%. Bair is fast and can punish. Dair is a fast spike and sometimes knocks them foward or back. Her fthrow lets her do an action out of it right away so u can do a header or follow up while uthrow is for combos and kills. Her other throws are great for stage control and bthrow can kill from the edge at 140%. Her crouch is godlike it can crouch over 90% of ZSS moves and it can even crouch under grabs and a bunch of moves. Dsmash has good knock back and is great for reads and covering rolls. Fsmash is multi directions and kills at 100%. Usmash is super strong but hard to land but kills at 90% I don't see her at low or the worst I'm sure she's mid

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I was a pioneer in Olimar is poop.
But itsnalways been primarily AI related. You dont boost a char with that kind of fundamental qualm. He has other issues but they arent as big. As I said way in the past his recovery is only slightly weaker than villagers at his max, which is french for "Olimar can go for deep kills" which is perfect as some characters really require you go deep to stop the recovery well (sheik) and Oli can manage that. There is no bandaiding pikmin problems though, "moar tilts" is a joke of a remedy when you want to blast them with his aerials but cant because purple suicided, red didnt follow so you are bashing them with a tickling white.

I cant manage forming another list.
Infact I feel list are kind of balls right now, a tier list normally "sums up" match ups/character analysis.
There is like no MU or analysis discussion here except for She-who-must-not-be-named.
Well ocassionnaly there is and the little there is often isn't opened up on a larger scale.

I continually see wario placing in lists, but hold up where was the wario talk anyways?
Mind you I get the feel but I haven't even seen Wario outside of FG.
Does he even have a favorable/even matchups in the current meta? Probably but who? Rob, Lucario, maybe Yoshi?

I wonder the exact same for Bowser.
I dont think he beats R+L with customs, or Fox, or sheik, ZSS, robin, rob, mario, yoshi. In fact I dont think he beats my boi charizard though charizard isnt really meta right now. I doubt they are even 50:50 matchups. Maybe he even matches with Lucario and Brawler.

I'll eat some stale ass crackers if Bowser 50:50's Shulk,Marth, Pit, Lucina,Link, Villager

 

[Z'zgashi]

As a Wii Fit Trainer player, WITHOUT customs, she's probably low tier, maybe low mid. Nowhere near the worst/bottom tier, more like upper low. With customs, she's actually kind of bull**** and at least a solid mid lol.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Palutena is a Goddess. Her tilts aren't good by any means (though I occasionally find a use for Ftilt at least) but everything else she has going for her are respectable to great. While she may have a more limited NUMBER of options due to her tilts being bad, the APPLICATIONS of her options are immense. For example...

While her grab game and speed options have been talked over and over, I really don't get the disrespect for her Usmash. I think people think of it only as a Dthrow follow up and get caught up in how, unlike most smash moves, it doesn't cover directly over her head. That doesn't matter with the rest of her moveset, and the options it has are vast.

*It's a Dthrow follow up option (for sure, worth repeating)
*It usable out of superspeed
*It's hit confirmable out of Super Speed
*It punishes landings on platforms
*It punishes landings on platforms as high as Battelfields TOP Platform with NO risk to herself.
*It's a ridiculous anti air (laughs at Greninjas dair for example)
*It's a great mix up option on the ground
*It's a great mix up with juggling (train them to expect a jump, punish the air dodge. Or train them to expect a grab, punish the escape)
*It can counter/punish many moves few other cast members can (Sonic's Homing attack, Shiek's Bouncing fish)

That's off the top of my head for it. It's a pretty awesome move.

 

[Kofu]

Her sun salutation can punish characters if not careful and it's struggle and its does lots of damage
Her ledge game is amazing, the headers and sun salutation can force her opponents to roll or shield allowed her time to recover. They also make her great at pressure. She can approuch with nair which has near to no landing lag and no start up and be comboed into uair. Deep breathing lets her kill at around 100% and also increases her damage output. Jump hoops goes vertically a decent amount and has a hitbox. Her jab can pitfall U leading to a dtilt or ftilt at mid or high percents. Her ftilt hits both in front and back and the back hitbox launches them up allowing u to combo and the front can push U out and kill at around 120
Dtilt is a great punish tool and is fast. Utilt can start combo. Nair has near to no lag or start up and can juggle an start combos. It's also hard to predict it to come out. Ftilt is interesting, it has a foot and hand hitbox the hand is like a normal attack and has decent range while foot is a spike. uair juggles and can kill near the top and uthrow to uair connects until like 70%. Bair is fast and can punish. Dair is a fast spike and sometimes knocks them foward or back. Her fthrow lets her do an action out of it right away so u can do a header or follow up while uthrow is for combos and kills. Her other throws are great for stage control and bthrow can kill from the edge at 140%. Her crouch is godlike it can crouch over 90% of ZSS moves and it can even crouch under grabs and a bunch of moves. Dsmash has good knock back and is great for reads and covering rolls. Fsmash is multi directions and kills at 100%. Usmash is super strong but hard to land but kills at 90% I don't see her at low or the worst I'm sure she's mid

You forgot the part where she struggles to hit anyone Mario's height or shorter and her horizontal range is terrible. The range wouldn't be as big a deal if her hitboxes were more conventional, but as it stands landing hits against a short, grounded opponent is extremely difficult. If you can get them into the air WFT does okay since her aerials are quite good and they actually have range. Granted I'm basing this off of my experience with vanilla specials. Jumbo Hoop is great and actually gives WFT something of an approach and Giant Header seems easier to work with in general.

 

[WiiFitBurger]

You forgot the part where she struggles to hit anyone Mario's height or shorter and her horizontal range is terrible. The range wouldn't be as big a deal if her hitboxes were more conventional, but as it stands landing hits against a short, grounded opponent is extremely difficult. If you can get them into the air WFT does okay since her aerials are quite good and they actually have range. Granted I'm basing this off of my experience with vanilla specials. Jumbo Hoop is great and actually gives WFT something of an approach and Giant Header seems easier to work with in general.

50% of her moves miss but she still her nair combos and she can still do well against them since she can camp with sun salutation

 

[RWB]

Okay, so, besides finally prying some sonic impressions out of people, we've certainly been gong around in circle with with top tier talk.

In order to help talk about characters that aren't talked about, lets follow the following prompt:

1.04 comes out, and the perceived top tiers get wrecked. Like, Rosalina can't do damage except with Luma, Sonic can't move, Shiek's recovery instantly kills her, the works. Completely nerfed to the point of being competitively irrelevant.

Who are the best characters? Remember, you can't just say that the above top ten counter said character and that makes character bad.

(For this prompt, the following characters are removed from discussion:)


Without these guys, I think a tier list of the wee baby metagame we understand, with the big boys gone, could look something like this:

A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

(jeeze, so many characters, hard to categorize. hopefully, this actually generates talk and can try make sense of the mid tier pile.)

Um, Brawler is in both the "big boys gone" group and the list(as a C tier).

Wut?

I dunno if the characters are tiered in order within tiers, because if they are, I think Lucina is too close to Marth. She loses so much... safety on shield, range(if minor), KO power(Marth's uncharged tippered Fsmash kills somewhere in the 60% range against a lot of characters, while Lucina's needs somewhere around 110/120%).

Other than that I think this looks pretty good. Maybe Pac-Man could move up a bit, he can do some ridiculous gimping and he has very solid stage control tools for making life tough on enemies(Up B forced jump, Hydrant, certain Neutral B projectiles).