Character Competitive Impressions

[Nabbitnator]

I wish you could grab luma... that seems reasonable to me...

 

[X3I]

This is crazy, you guys always talk about 4-5 characters (Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, Greninja, ZSS) and then you complain, like: "We don't have much infos on the other char lol"... But when someone wants to start a discussion on another char, you continue to talk about these 5. ._.

 

[The Real Gamer]

It's easier to see the weaknesses of a character when you play *as* that character and realize that, hey, everything isn't so easy as you thought it would be; there are some areas in which you will struggle and have to work harder than your opponent. It's not about downplaying your character to make your character not look top tier; it's about trying to convey the obstacles that a character has to success. The best Rosalina, Sheik, Lucario, and Sheik players don't get to be the best for free just by using their characters: they need to put in nearly as much work as the people that they are beating.

oh, and Lucario really does suck without Aura. Character is unusable until 50% or more. Any trade he makes ends unfavorably for him, his range is terrible, he has to watch out for gimps, and don't even think about landing a comeback kill after losing a stock. I don't understand the problem with Lucario's design. I think he's one of the fairest characters in the game and very well designed. He's high-risk high-reward, kind of like Little Mac, and high-risk high-reward is a legitimate playstyle, just not a very consistent one for tournaments.

You're attacking a strawman.

Once again I never said they were wrong. All I'm saying is that a little more detail on said weaknesses would be appreciated instead of nonconstructive posts like "you have no idea what you're talking about."

 

[Nabbitnator]

I wish you could grab luma... that seems reasonable to me...

Aside from that we should move on to other characters to discuss imo

 

[NairWizard]

You're attacking a strawman.

Once again I never said they were wrong. All I'm saying is that a little more detail on said weaknesses would be appreciated instead of nonconstructive posts like "you have no idea what you're talking about."

I'm not attacking your post, just using it to make a broader point.

I wish you could grab luma... that seems reasonable to me...

Aside from that we should move on to other characters to discuss imo

But then....what if Luma could grab you too? *shudders*

 

[Nabbitnator]

Yeah in all fairness luma would have to be able to grab. Rosalina would be ice climbers on crack if luma could throw.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shulk's weird. Gets more reward from an advantaged position than most other characters. Has better tools to get out of disadvantaged positions than most other character. But he really lacks a solid B&B option in neutral because everything he has is situational. Whether Shulk will end up being a good character or not will depend on how his players deal with the "situational" part of the story.

That's Zelda in a nutshell, too.

I'd like to re-iterate this point.
Also;
- fsmash is average
- his CQC is ****
- his custom specials are pointless and at best a gimmick

Note that I never actually said his F-smash was that great. What I did suggest is that the character by design is extremely dishonest, and the positioning he forces from you makes his F-smash stupid to play around. Give Sonic's F-smash to another character, it would be a mostly unimpressive move. Just the entirety of Sonic's playstyle forces you to play in a way that lets him basically get away with moves that should normally be unsafe, like his F-smash.

Also, his F-smash in fact has good range when you factor the leanback. And while I don't know all the specifics, I'm pretty sure @Thinkaman and @Amazing Ampharos argued somewhere Hammer Spin Dash basically is a free approach that is jump cancelable to avoid punishment and on hit confirms into free hits of your choice. Safe easy approach that confirms combos on hit? Easily one of the best moves in the game with those kinds of properties.

 

[Tagxy]

After reading the last page, I'm unsubbing from here. No amount of explaining will change anything.

I dunno man Sonics fsmash sounds too OP, we can only hope for patch nerfs.

lol, but seriously it would be nice if you gave at least a little understanding of new sonic. Everyone seems to think hes very good (m2k's maining him after all) but itd be valuable to hear from someone with a solid understanding of his changes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Since I missed this, but I think this is important to highlight:

oh, and Lucario really does suck without Aura. Character is unusable until 50% or more. Any trade he makes ends unfavorably for him, his range is terrible, he has to watch out for gimps, and don't even think about landing a comeback kill after losing a stock. I don't understand the problem with Lucario's design. I think he's one of the fairest characters in the game and very well designed. He's high-risk high-reward, kind of like Little Mac, and high-risk high-reward is a legitimate playstyle, just not a very consistent one for tournaments.

He's numerically a mostly fair character, but the way he beats you is extremely unfair. To an extent, he really doesn't beat you by being a better player. He just expects to survive to danger zones and then guesses twice to kill you. It's not interesting to play against.

I actually don't consider Little Mac inherently high risk high reward in the way you define it. Little Mac generally speaking has reliable tools and is rewarded for solid fundamentals, you can argue he's more or less rewarded to an extreme for playing well. Just he also gets punished very significantly for his mistakes. This is the antithesis of Lucario, who is less rewarded for solid gameplay, but more just punishes his opponent passively if they are unable to kill him quickly. Little Mac in contrast plays within normal competitive expectations pretty strictly, even if he does so to an extreme.

Real high risk high reward is Ganondorf, where the majority of your moveset by design is not reliable, but has massive impact when it works.

 

[Chuva]

So...this thread in a nutshell:

- Blonde women are dominant in this game for some reason (poor Zelda, why did you become a brunette?)

- Sonic is the El Fuerte of this game

- Mario is a good, bad character

- Pit is Fair

- The future will be about Dragon Rush, Superspeed, Counter Timber and Falco


On a serious note, I keep seeing people talk about the possibilities of Rosalina losing her hegemony once the game develops, but I feel Lucario is also prone to such thing as the game evolves. Even if aura is an insane comeback mechanism, his pre-aura game is underwhelming, mediocre at best (worse than solo Rosalina imo) and he tends to get demolished in neutral by the so far perceived top and high tier characters, specially when rushed down.

I'm sure people will start thinking of good kill setups or ways of stalling/lame him at high aura %, rather than trying to play traditional spacing game against him and dying to 3 bad reads (which is what people usually do as of now), specially when you keep in mind that Lucario doesn't really have good ways of forcing enemies to approach.

 

[Conda]

This is crazy, you guys always talk about 4-5 characters (Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, Greninja, ZSS) and then you complain, like: "We don't have much infos on the other char lol"... But when someone wants to start a discussion on another char, you continue to talk about these 5. ._.

Copy paste your great G&W post again, we'll talk about it I promise I feel ya.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I haven't seen that much discussion of the Mii Brawler - in particular the ones that set their height to the shortest possible and basically become smaller than Jigglypuff.

The Mii Brawler is kind of ridiculous. It's small, fast, and hits HARD. I can't think of any other character in this game with that combination other than Little Mac, but we all know about Little Mac's limitations. The Brawler's recovery range is not great but it's manageable. And he has an extremely useful spacing projectile.

I think maybe the character doesn't get much attention because you literally can't face one on For Glory, and there probably aren't that many good players who have bothered picking up the Brawler because, let's face it... who really wants to play with a Mii? But after I finally faced a really good one the other day, I have to say that I think this character's competitive potential has been mostly overlooked.

---

Oh, and one more thing on Rosalina. I tend to agree with the fact that she's really good, if not the best character in the game than certainly right up there (Diddy, anyone?). What I don't understand is why so many people seem absolutely convinced that as the game evolves she will take a step back. I always see people talking about how other characters will benefit from a C-stick so much more than Rosa... but I can't tell you how many times my opponent has been right within Luma's sweet spot, but I can't smash fast enough to take advantage of it, or end up doing a tilt instead. All I'm saying is that I think it's silly that some people are absolutely convinced Rosa will fall out of top tier as time passes... Yes, people can adjust to Rosalina, and Rosalina can adjust back too. Literally the same thing can be said about any character. But Rosalina's fundamental strengths will always remain the same (@ Conda did a pretty good job of recapping those), and assuming she gets no further nerfs, I don't see any reason she shouldn't continue to be top tier going forward.

---

And yeah, let's get some Game & Watch discussion going as well. I haven't had the opportunity to face a really good one yet and I don't play him at all, so I can't really comment on it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W's biggest problem is his KO options are limited and slightly on the weak side, and he's REALLY LIGHT. So basically he rarely ever is able to KO people before they can KO him.

Kit is decent otherwise. Decent range + mobility, some good throw combos, great recovery. He's also a very small target overall.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

And yeah, let's get some Game & Watch discussion going as well. I haven't had the opportunity to face a really good one yet and I don't play him at all, so I can't really comment on it.

To get this ball rolling, how does G&W benefit from custom moves? They all sound mildly interesting on paper, at least, and Chain Judge in particular seems better than stock.

 

[san.]

How would one define good combo, throw, and edgeguarding games for a character? Ex. I have seen people hail Palutena as having one of the best grab games. Is it because of a pure % difference or does it have to be a grab combo that further leads to more strings? I feel that most characters can combo reliably off of a throw with decent followups.

 

[Deleted member]

To get this ball rolling, how does G&W benefit from custom moves? They all sound mildly interesting on paper, at least, and Chain Judge in particular seems better than stock.

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I'm really liking G&W's short order chef special. It has pretty good range and comes out faster than his regular chef does. The only drawback I can find is the lack of knockback/damage it does when it hits.

As for his side-b, I find that Extreme Judge is pretty useful if you want to try your luck at an early kill, but from my experience it's not very reliable if you keep getting 1s.

I'm somewhat of a noob when it comes to competitive smash but that's just my two cents on the subject.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How would one define good combo, throw, and edgeguarding games for a character? Ex. I have seen people hail Palutena as having one of the best grab games. Is it because of a pure % difference or does it have to be a grab combo that further leads to more strings? I feel that most characters can combo reliably off of a throw with decent followups.

Palutena's grab pummel has REALLY high DPS. That's a big part of why her grab reward is really good. Aside from D-throw of course having good followups including aerials/U-smash.

 

[sunset_raven]

So...this thread in a nutshell:

- Sonic is the El Fuerte of this game

And now I have to main Sonic.

 

[meleebrawler]

And now I have to main Sonic.

EEEELLL SOONIIIIIC... UL-TRA SPARK!!!!

 

[-RedX-]

Sonic's Fsmash outranges Ike's Dtilt.
That Fsmash also has similar KO power, startup, and range to Ike's Ftilt. The only difference is you can't punish Sonic. Balance.
i cry erry time

 

[meleebrawler]

Sonic's Fsmash outranges Ike's Dtilt.
That Fsmash also has similar KO power, startup, and range to Ike's Ftilt. The only difference is you can't punish Sonic. Balance.
i cry erry time

A forward smash has superior range to a Dtilt? *gasp* That has NEVER
happened ever!

If it outranged Ike's F-tilt then maybe we would have something.

 

[san.]

Ike's ftilt has slightly better range, faster initial hitbox I think (and if not, the same) with slightly more endlag, and kills later at the edge (5% when I tested against Mario in training mode). Ike's ftilt is pretty much a smash attack, making his dtilt the only attack that fits what a tilt should do. Sonic also move's forward a bit after the end of the fsmash, making it good at punishing whiffs while not being as completely safe as one may believe afterwards.

Ike would have a great ftilt if he could charge it, but the burden of timing is on him unfortunately, making it balanced/decent overall. What makes Ike's ftilt okay and Sonic's fsmash great is that Sonic's uncharged fsmash is already as powerful as an Ike ftilt, and the ability to charge for more damage with a fast release/less endlag makes it a much better tool.

 

[-RedX-]

A forward smash has superior range to a Dtilt? *gasp* That has NEVER
happened ever!

If it outranged Ike's F-tilt then maybe we would have something.

The fact that Sonic's Fsmash outranges a Dtilt like that while having that kill power and being unpunishable is a bit too much. The startup is the only drawback but is that enough?

I'm probably being a giant scrub but right now I really can't stand how ridiculous Sonic is.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

It's a shame that rosalina so good, as she's one of the most boring characters for spectators who want to watch a pro-level fighting game. Imo hurts smash's spectator value a bit, which is bad for any competitive game.

This is what is actually my single biggest gripe with the character. I want Smash 4 to succeed as a competitive title, but if Youtube comments, Twitch chats and just some choice opinions of a few smashers are any indication, Rosalina decreases Smash 4's watchability. People don't want to see her at all and livestream numbers go down whenever she is on stream for more than a set. Hell, at the Xanadu Smash 4 Invitational when Dabuz beat Nairo game 2 of their set in winners, the livestream chat ERUPTED with booing (which, I'll admit, I contributed to ).

I don't know why you put this in small text. It could actually be a serious issue in the near future, the long run, or both. People want an exciting top-level metagame and Rosalina seems to be a character very few people outside of Rosalina mains wanted to be good.

Also I apologise for making the discussion about Rosalina again.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It'd be better if she was good and interesting to...well, watch I guess. I can see more people just picking Sheik tho honestly, Dabuz is the only one I really see....

 

[g0rilla]

Rosa is just so boring, not saying she is OP, just boring and lame.

 

[Artero]

I actually find Sonic a lot more boring to watch than Rosalina and Luma, but maybe that's just me. All Sonic players seem to do is trying to get the same combo the entire time, whereas seeing someone making a combo that uses both Rosalina and Luma are mostly situational and pretty exciting to watch.

 

[WiiFitBurger]

What do u guys think of wii fit. She's great at edge guarding, camp, has an amazing edge game, comboing. Her projectiles R great and she can approuch. She is both at being offensive and defensive and neutral game but what do u guys think?

Will she viable?

What tier is she most likely in? I say mid

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Since I missed this, but I think this is important to highlight:

He's numerically a mostly fair character, but the way he beats you is extremely unfair. To an extent, he really doesn't beat you by being a better player. He just expects to survive to danger zones and then guesses twice to kill you. It's not interesting to play against.

I actually don't consider Little Mac inherently high risk high reward in the way you define it. Little Mac is generally speaking has reliable tools and is rewarded for solid fundamentals, you can argue he's more or less rewarded to an extreme for playing well. Just he also gets punished very significantly for his mistakes. This is the antithesis of Lucario, who is less rewarded for solid gameplay, but more just punishes his opponent passively if they are unable to kill him quickly. Little Mac in contrast plays within normal competitive expectations pretty strictly, even if he does so to an extreme.

Real high risk high reward is Ganondorf, where the majority of your moveset by design is not reliable, but has massive impact when it works.

I wouldn't necessarily say he is numerically fair in areas.

His Bair and Fsmash kill stupidly early even without aura. Calling him but high risk high reward is foolhardy. He is exactly that but overtuned.

Ganon can always there are situations Lucario cannot.

He plays a dangerous game at high percents and heavy character can kill him and exploit this.

He has legit weaknesses but a lot of people are jumping on zeros, "if you main Lucario I don't respect you" bandwagon.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Rosalina is a boring character in general. Not even smash related, she's a peach recolor that's like a robot.
It sucks Nintendo is shoving Rosalina into every new Mario title, expect to see her in MP10.

 

[Jaxas]

This is what is actually my single biggest gripe with the character. I want Smash 4 to succeed as a competitive title, but if Youtube comments, Twitch chats and just some choice opinions of a few smashers are any indication, Rosalina decreases Smash 4's watchability. People don't want to see her at all and livestream numbers go down whenever she is on stream for more than a set. Hell, at the Xanadu Smash 4 Invitational when Dabuz beat Nairo game 2 of their set in winners, the livestream chat ERUPTED with booing (which, I'll admit, I contributed to ).

I don't know why you put this in small text. It could actually be a serious issue in the near future, the long run, or both. People want an exciting top-level metagame and Rosalina seems to be a character very few people outside of Rosalina mains wanted to be good.

Also I apologise for making the discussion about Rosalina again.

Rosa is just so boring, not saying she is OP, just boring and lame.

It's the problem Brawl (still my favorite game to play, but it'll probably fall to 2nd once Sm4shU hits) had really; no matter how deep the game is if it doesn't look good, then it hurts the viewership.
Brawl had this in that MK vs MK, ICs vs Anyone ever, and a few other MUs were boring to most (or just very stale), while Diddy/ZSS/Marth/(Agressive) Falco etc were still pretty fun to watch, at least to me.

Honestly I'd love to see something happen like with Palutena (super defensive character that ends up working better as rushdown), but I don't think it's likely...
I really want sm4sh to succeed, but if someone like me who still enjoys campy/slow matches like Brawl Snake-Marth and ICs-ZSS/Marth is getting tired of Rosaluma, then...

However, on the other hand this isn't a problem for the Rosaluma players, as their goal should be to win; Nintendo should be the ones trying to make it interesting to watch, and hopefully they do somehow

Anyways, on to WFT

What do u guys think of wii fit. She's great at edge guarding, camp, has an amazing edge game, comboing. Her projectiles R great and she can approuch. She is both at being offensive and defensive and neutral game but what do u guys think?

Will she viable?

What tier is she most likely in? I say mid

She seems to have some really cool stuff, but I've heard she has really small hitboxes (and not just weird placement), is that correct?
I also know Jump Hoop is apparently godly, but other than that I hardly know anything about the character.

(Also, too early for tier discussion really)

 

[PCHU]

If characters had their range restored (as in ALL arced aerials hit with the full arc and there's no clipping through opponents without hitting them or being a phantom hit) and everyone had relatively quick options, I think that the rest would fall into place.
There seems to be an imbalance of fast characters with a lot of usable tactics vs low mobility characters with slow moves that typically don't hit hard enough to compensate.

I don't know what PM is doing right, but even on a casual level, every character feels good, and I don't understand why.
Heavier characters are slower, lighter characters are faster/floatier, but even low-range characters like Wario are capable of fighting Marth, not to mention I can get in on campy characters no matter who I choose.
Extremely powerful aerials are fast but can still be dodged, and normal aerials are quick but, again, you can work around them.

I just want to be able to use almost anybody and have a relatively even match.

 

[NairWizard]

To an extent, he really doesn't beat you by being a better player.

The same argument applies to the other side: if Lucario isn't outplaying me when he kills me at 40%, then I'm not outplaying Lucario when I get him to the 50-80% range. Lucario at low %s is easy for most characters to harass, just like other characters at low %s are easy for high-% Lucario to kill. This is a very balanced equation.


--

Rest of topic: people will complain about any character with significant strength or popularity. When Tyrant and Jtails were fighting people were booing because of how boring Diddy is to watch. I was thinking, what, Diddy, boring? Who is "fun" then? It's kind of like how Melee viewers often complain about Fox and Falco even though Fox and Falco are quite fast and super fun to watch. Must someone be playing Captain Falcon or Ganon for people to enjoy the show? It's the same deal as underdog cheering: when m2k is the best and winning tourneys left and right, no one wants him to win, but when he hasn't won a tournament in a while, everyone wants him to win. Just the nature of the competitive beast.

 

[The Real Gamer]

"if you main Lucario I don't respect you"

I have a big problem with this statement.

There's a fine line between being angry with the GAME and being angry with the PLAYER. PLAYERS should never be disrespected for playing who they choose to play regardless of their intent. If you need to vent keep the anger geared towards the GAME.

You think Rosaluma is lame? That's fine.
You think Rosaluma mainers are lame? This mindset is toxic and should have no place in the FGC.

I'm pretty disappointed this came from Zero since so many people look up to him.

 

[Nobie]

On a serious note, I keep seeing people talk about the possibilities of Rosalina losing her hegemony once the game develops, but I feel Lucario is also prone to such thing as the game evolves. Even if aura is an insane comeback mechanism, his pre-aura game is underwhelming, mediocre at best (worse than solo Rosalina imo) and he tends to get demolished in neutral by the so far perceived top and high tier characters, specially when rushed down.

I'm sure people will start thinking of good kill setups or ways of stalling/lame him at high aura %, rather than trying to play traditional spacing game against him and dying to 3 bad reads (which is what people usually do as of now), specially when you keep in mind that Lucario doesn't really have good ways of forcing enemies to approach.

Here's something I'm thinking about in regards to Lucario and aura. Some tournaments are currently 3-stock, others are 2-stock. With 2-stock, Lucario has fewer chances for aura to be around to make a difference, but it also means he can end the game more easily because of fewer stocks as well. Does 3-stock vs. 2-stock actually affect how Lucario is played or his overall placement among characters?

 

[WiiFitBurger]

Anyways, on to WFT

She seems to have some really cool stuff, but I've heard she has really small hitboxes (and not just weird placement), is that correct?
I also know Jump Hoop is apparently godly, but other than that I hardly know anything about the character.

(Also, too early for tier discussion really)

Yeah it's true but no one of her customs "jumbo hoops" could be like meta knight tornado, it does 35-25% it can break shields, U can chase people with it well, it's high priority

 

[Steam]

I also don't think people realize that rage is a big part of what makes lucario kill so easily past 100%. a lot of characters can kill really early above 100%, not just lucario.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

This is what is actually my single biggest gripe with the character. I want Smash 4 to succeed as a competitive title, but if Youtube comments, Twitch chats and just some choice opinions of a few smashers are any indication, Rosalina decreases Smash 4's watchability. People don't want to see her at all and livestream numbers go down whenever she is on stream for more than a set. Hell, at the Xanadu Smash 4 Invitational when Dabuz beat Nairo game 2 of their set in winners, the livestream chat ERUPTED with booing (which, I'll admit, I contributed to ).

I don't know why you put this in small text. It could actually be a serious issue in the near future, the long run, or both. People want an exciting top-level metagame and Rosalina seems to be a character very few people outside of Rosalina mains wanted to be good.

Also I apologise for making the discussion about Rosalina again.

I will say, this post about Rosalina actually made me think about what was potentially wrong with Rosalina.

My main problem with a lot of Rosalina complaints I've seen is that I seen the word "detrimental" was used a lot when talking about her but I couldn't understand why it seemed people felt it was that she was so bad.

She's overpowered, sure, but I never saw her as Meta Knight level powerful. I don't think there will be many unwinnable match ups against her, no stages would probably be banned because of her, (of course this could be proven wrong but just theory crafting.) After all, she didn't have as good of a recovery as Meta knight and had some pretty decent weaknesses like being both light and floaty even if they were off balanced a little too much.

I felt that if she was just a little overpowered people would be more like: "This sucks a bit" then move on. However, people kept talking about how overpowered she was and it did make me very curious.

I can kinda see what you guys mean though if we are referring to spectators. Granted, as a Rosalina main, I can never understand the view of her being boring to watch. I get hyped everytime I see a match involving her.

I can't speak for other Rosalina mains, but the reason I try to stress her weaknesses is because I found the complaining a little unwarranted as I felt that her weaknesses really did make up for it at least at an acceptable level.

I don't want it to become like what @ R RascalTheCharizard said. I don't want my favorite character to become the ultimate symbol of "why smash 4 failed" though.

I have a big problem with this statement.

There's a fine line between being angry with the GAME and being angry with the PLAYER. PLAYERS should never be disrespected for playing who they choose to play regardless of their intent. If you need to vent keep the anger geared towards the GAME.

You think Rosaluma is lame? That's fine.
You think Rosaluma mainers are lame? This mindset is toxic and should have no place in the FGC.

I'm pretty disappointed this came from Zero since so many people look up to him.

And this is ultimately what I'm afraid of.

Rosalina is a character I will admit to being overpowered. I may never understand why she can be "boring," but I'll accept that people may find her lame, and thats ok. However a future where there is nothing but booing for Rosalina mains is a future I hope we don't have to live in. It really does seem unfair that even if she is overpowered that Rosalina players are going to face all kinds of abuse. :/

Lastly, I'm sorry for making this discussion about Rosalina as well.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

At this rate, this thread should be renamed "Everybody discusses Rosalina, and sometimes the other perceived High tiers."

 

[Dre89]

Lucario is poorly designed because he's rewarded for both dealing damage and taking damage. Rewarding a character for getting outplayed is just silly. It's not as if he doesn't get rewarded as much as everyone else for outplaying his opponent, he just also happens to get rewarded for getting outplayed on top of that too.