Character Competitive Impressions

[Jabejazz]

Rest of topic: people will complain about any character with significant strength or popularity. When Tyrant and Jtails were fighting people were booing because of how boring Diddy is to watch. I was thinking, what, Diddy, boring? Who is "fun" then? It's kind of like how Melee viewers often complain about Fox and Falco even though Fox and Falco are quite fast and super fun to watch. Must someone be playing Captain Falcon or Ganon for people to enjoy the show? It's the same deal as underdog cheering: when m2k is the best and winning tourneys left and right, no one wants him to win, but when he hasn't won a tournament in a while, everyone wants him to win. Just the nature of the competitive beast.

I don't think people complain about Fox and Falco because they're boring characters, but most likely because they're the most common characters. I don't watch enough Melee tournaments to back up that claim, but TBH4 was quite varied and was far more exciting than if Top 8 was exclusively Foxes and Falcos.

If people find Diddy boring, the problem probably isn't on Diddy's side.

Regardless, variety is also a strong factor to consider when talking about viewer entertainment.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I thought game n watch was the topic.
Lemme sum up Lucario."I was an adventurer until I took a back air to the knee"

Honestly When G&W is discussed I dont know what to add because I legit just see him as a squishy rng character. Not simply because of judge but because his trades are eh.

Kirby is light as hell but Kirby can scare the crap out of you if he does something like a d-air/fair to Usmash/uptilt/downtilt and follows up especially if you trip on that dtilt hello damage. However kirby has approach problems

G&W kinda does what most do, land 1-2 hits and reset. Thing is G&W is light as hell so if he just does 1-2 trades he will doe first.

Kirby and jigglypuff can get chained get read twice and then turn it all around in 1 string forget about a trade.
I feel like he gets the biggest disfavor in terms of trades for lightweights.

That being said he has disjoints that Kirby and jiggly just dont have and his recovery is solid. Kirby may be threatening up close but he has way more issue getting a first hit in compared to G&W. That said what is even safe on shield for G&W? Doesnt seem like much at all.

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't think people complain about Fox and Falco because they're boring characters, but most likely because they're the most common characters.

Basically this. Metaknight in Brawl is extremely boring to watch because there was a severe over-saturation of it. On the other hand, I personally find Diddy fun to watch (though super-frustrating to play against) because of how active he is on the map, but when you lack that "breath of fresh air", it starts to get to you.

It's also why I'm somewhat amused viewers are already booing characters, despite the fact the game's competitive scene has barely got off the ground. I personally find this immature, since I've barely seen this happen in other competitive scenes, even when Kokonoe was dominating everything in BB:CP.

 

[Jaxas]

I don't think people complain about Fox and Falco because they're boring characters, but most likely because they're the most common characters. I don't watch enough Melee tournaments to back up that claim, but TBH4 was quite varied and was far more exciting than if Top 8 was exclusively Foxes and Falcos.

If people find Diddy boring, the problem probably isn't on Diddy's side.

Regardless, variety is also a strong factor to consider when talking about viewer entertainment.

This is what really hurt Brawl; MK alone at the very top made most matches MK vs MK, which ends up getting stale. Honestly I like having Rosalina being at the top, as long as she's not the only one at the top. There should be defensive/slower characters at the top to balance out against the super-speed Fox/Falco/Sheiks

 

[Steam]

Lucario is poorly designed because he's rewarded for both dealing damage and taking damage. Rewarding a character for getting outplayed is just silly. It's not as if he doesn't get rewarded as much as everyone else for outplaying his opponent, he just also happens to get rewarded for getting outplayed on top of that too.

everyone gets rewarded for going past 100%. And he does get rewarded less for outplaying his opponent if he happens to be at low%. his damage at low aura is PITIFUL.

I think everyone wants lucario to have a consistent damage level though... though he'd still kill people really early because rage.

 

[Thinkaman]

Passing thought:
Almost all dittos are fundamentally less interesting than normal matches. (Both to play and watch) The more viable characters there are, the fewer percentage of games are dittos.

 

[Conda]

Basically this. Metaknight in Brawl is extremely boring to watch because there was a severe over-saturation of it. On the other hand, I personally find Diddy fun to watch (though super-frustrating to play against) because of how active he is on the map, but when you lack that "breath of fresh air", it starts to get to you.

It's also why I'm somewhat amused viewers are already booing characters, despite the fact the game's competitive scene has barely got off the ground. I personally find this immature, since I've barely seen this happen in other competitive scenes, even when Kokonoe was dominating everything in BB:CP.

Its basically just rooting for the non-rosalina which is fine. Its rosa vs other high tiers that is boring to spectators because they are wanting to see more variety to show them the competitive scene is flourishing and balanced.

And when its sheik vs Fox, people will root for fox because he is less represented and it can get samey to see sheik win so often and get to the finals. Its also kind of disappointing when someone who mains an underrepresented character switches to sheik, because an interesting set just became more ordinary.

 

[Jaxas]

everyone gets rewarded for going past 100%. And he does get rewarded less for outplaying his opponent if he happens to be at low%. his damage at low aura is PITIFUL.

I think everyone wants lucario to have a consistent damage level though... though he'd still kill people really early because rage.

Yeah, as much fun as it is starting a game with a 10+ hit string and then noticing that the opponent is only at ~25%, I'd rather just have a set damage amount. Honestly I didn't mind Brawl's aura scaling, because it wasn't as hugely influential.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I do recall Clash being mad hype for Zees villager and some dudes charizard.
The underdog is fun until they become legitimate. then Conda tells us to ban piston punch

 

[Thinkaman]

Hopefully once Rosalina is nerfed, we can ban customs so we can cut this "character diversity" nonsense and get back to just Sheik, Yoshi, Diddy, and ZSS like God intended.

 

[NairWizard]

Lucario is poorly designed because he's rewarded for both dealing damage and taking damage. Rewarding a character for getting outplayed is just silly. It's not as if he doesn't get rewarded as much as everyone else for outplaying his opponent, he just also happens to get rewarded for getting outplayed on top of that too.

You aren't outplaying Lucario if you beat him when he's at low percents. He's a fundamentally weak character at low %s.

 

[Jabejazz]

Hopefully once Rosalina is nerfed, we can ban customs so we can cut this "character diversity" nonsense and get back to just Sheik, Yoshi, Diddy, and ZSS like God intended.

Hopefully we can also skip all the tedious stage bans and get right to Omega stages, 2 stocks, 5 minutes, like God intended.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hopefully we can also skip all the tedious stage bans and get right to Omega stages, 2 stocks, 5 minutes, like God intended.

You mean 2 minute time matches, inscribed in the game code by Zeus himself.

 

[Jabejazz]

I shall respect your different religion and leave it at that.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hopefully once Rosalina is nerfed, we can ban customs so we can cut this "character diversity" nonsense and get back to just Sheik, Yoshi, Diddy, and ZSS like God intended.

Smash ball
Black Yoshi only
Battlefield
1 stock because people live too long
No customs
smash4 meta, 2015

Hell the brawler thing is funny because you know the other Mii worth talking about? Gunner? Probably wont be, took forever to get Brawler some love here he just had to 0% people to get his 15 minutes.

 

[Jaxas]

All right, so since we keep talking Rosalina, are there any moves that just plain shut her down?

Jumbo Hoop eats shields, multi-hits, and completely wrecks Luma, right? That could be big in the future, though I have no idea how WFT stacks up against Rosa-noLuma. Same with DK's custom USpecial with the whirlwind and super armor and stuff.

What about Samus with the slow-missile and slow-shot customs? She could fire them and then Rosalina has to either GP to absorb the projectiles, leaving her open to Samus coming in right behind them, or shield and Samus can tether-grab her (or just keep pelting with missiles).
Screw Attack would also wreck Luma as an OoS, correct?

 

[WiiFitBurger]

Omg this is a character discussion not a only high tier character discussion why don't we talk about mid or low tiers like wii fit trainer, zelda, kirby, falco. If u guys r only gonna talk about rosalina and lucario then go to their specific character threads

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Omg this is a character discussion not a only high tier character discussion why don't we talk about mid or low tiers like wii fit trainer, zelda, kirby, falco. If u guys r only gonna talk about rosalina and lucario then go to their specific character threads

WFT has great edgeguarding customs, a respectable offstage game that some surely undervalue. Her range is notaably Muk but everything she lands is potential including aerials. Her grabbox is terrible. She isnt really campy but she does pressure approaches.

Zelda is A2s baby

Kirby is the biggest threat you will never see be a threat because he cant get in. Jumping inhale bandaids inhale, hammer bash bandaids hammer flip, wave cutter and upper cutter are respectable up specials. You can read Kirby twice and he'll bring it back in 1 but in all likelihood because of range/speed qualms he is put on the defensive and he does not have a strong defensive base. jigglypuff on the other hand can approach, fantastic mobility in the air + pounds shield pressure and generally good reward.
Kirby also has that fast jab and a great height. Kirby will remain in jiggles shadow.

 

[Thinkaman]

All right, so since we keep talking Rosalina, are there any moves that just plain shut her down?

Don't make me post the list again. I'll do it.

But yes, reflectors are nice, super spammable projectiles are nice, anything that does shield pressure is nice, anything with high base knockback is nice. (OHKOs Luma)

My favorite anti-Luma moves are:

• Peach Bomber (any)
• Peach dair
• Bowser Jr. Big Mechakoopa (down 3)
• Bowser Jr. dair
• DK Kong Cyclone (up 3)
• Zelda Phantom (any; I prefer 2 for this)
• Zelda toes
• Ganondorf ANYTHING (Flame Chain, Wizard's Dropkick, f-tilt, and bair are my favorite favorites)
• Palutena Super Speed (side 3)
• Palutena bair
• Ike fair
• Ike Close Combat (side 2)
• Robin Arcfire+ (side 2)
• Robin Arcthunder+/Thoron+ (neutral 2)
• DDD Dedede Storm (neutral 2)
• Falco Void Reflector (down 3)
• Charizard Dragon Rush (side 3)
• Charizard Rock Smash (down 1)
• DHD Zigzag Shot
• Falcon bair
• Falcon Kick (down 1 or 2)
• Raptor Boost (any; I prefer 1)
• WFT Jumbo Hoop (up 2)

Other characters have some good options too, but these are imo the most simple and/or satisfying.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Passing thought:
Almost all dittos are fundamentally less interesting than normal matches. (Both to play and watch) The more viable characters there are, the fewer percentage of games are dittos.

Rosalina dittos have a fun annoying quirk where it's sometimes hard to tell who each Luma belongs to since there's nothing in place to make sure they're different colors. But agreed in general.

All right, so since we keep talking Rosalina, are there any moves that just plain shut her down?

Jumbo Hoop eats shields, multi-hits, and completely wrecks Luma, right? That could be big in the future, though I have no idea how WFT stacks up against Rosa-noLuma. Same with DK's custom USpecial with the whirlwind and super armor and stuff.

What about Samus with the slow-missile and slow-shot customs? She could fire them and then Rosalina has to either GP to absorb the projectiles, leaving her open to Samus coming in right behind them, or shield and Samus can tether-grab her (or just keep pelting with missiles).
Screw Attack would also wreck Luma as an OoS, correct?

I don't know about "shut her down" since she does have a laundry list of strong points and @ Conda had a point when he said killing Luma just brings Rosalina back down to everyone else's level for a while.

But you seem to be on the right track judging from my own experience. Shield pressure tends to smack Luma away since it can't shield itself and walls of projectiles at short to medium range put Rosalina in an uncomfortable position where she doesn't lack for options but each has a downside so it becomes reads and RPS. (Shield < Grab, GPull < Attack, and letting Luma tank the hits lets it die sooner and depending on the projectile may hit it away altogether. Note to self: look into the Guardian Luma move.) I think Dabuz was missing Luma about half the time yesterday on ClashTournaments, that may also be worth a watch if you're up to poking through it all. VOD Link.

 

[Jaxas]

The list!

Awesome, thanks!
The next question to narrow it down becomes what is then not easily punishable by Rosalina when you hit Luma with it?

I don't know about "shut her down" since she does have a laundry list of strong points and @ Conda had a point when he said killing Luma just brings Rosalina back down to everyone else's level for a while.

Yeah, I do realize that however at this point our options are pretty much "Complain that RosaLuma is too strong" or "Get rid of Luma and make her less amazing, even if still very strong".

I'd rather fight a character 10% stronger than mine than 30-40%, for example.

Anyways, how easy is it for Rosalina to punish Palutena's Super Speed/Bair(/DA?) on Luma? Do any characters have an option where it turns killing Luma into the RPS type thing @ ParanoidDrone was talking about? Because then the trade would almost always be in the non-Rosa's favor, especially with the upcoming respawn nerf.

 

[Rafitak]

How do you all feel about Link?

I feel this is the most competitive he's ever been.

 

[NairWizard]

Characters that I believe are being underrated by a substantial margin and have top/high-tier potential with customs on (though I won't make any arguments in their favor at this time, as I don't have the tournament experience with these characters to back up my claims): Wii Fit Trainer, Donkey Kong, and Samus.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How do you all feel about Link?

I feel this is the most competitive he's ever been.

A royal pain to fight if he knows how to follow up his projectile hits properly. That goes for Toon Link too, not sure which one is better.

 

[Shaya]

There's always something interesting to say about Rosalina right?
We don't need posts that complain about the lack of diversity in discussion, it kinda does mimic that foul system much like bipartisan democratic politics, but you get your point through by "keeping in line" with the rest of the conversation.

In short: How does another character actually deal with Rosalina, Sonic, Lucario, Sheik (and /). That essentially is all that matters, they're polarising the meta and ignoring the meta hurts. If your character has no place in this 4-character (or so) dominated meta, then that's a big shame, not much we can do about it but adjust our thoughts on how to make a character relevant to the meta.

Also Mars dittos have always been fun/hype, both characters are able to practically end each others stocks for free on so many different reads/situations. Mars has always been Mars' hardest match up. A lot of Marth players don't play the ditto in tournament though, it's way too volatile (imagine a game where your optimal usage has you shaping up against respecting a 10 frame punish move that kills you at 50%).

Also Sonic's fsmash is definitely bull ****.
It's between -4 and +1 on block.
... Power shield attacking with fast things just get power shielded.

MK's fsmash in brawl was -7. I would assume it's just short of 20 frame start up/probably faster than MKs.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Also Mars dittos have always been fun/hype, both characters are able to practically end each others stocks for free on so many different reads/situations. Mars has always been Mars' hardest match up.

Battle of the century: Mars vs. Mars!

I'm sorry please don't hurt me.

 

[WiiFitBurger]

WFT has great edgeguarding customs, a respectable offstage game that some surely undervalue. Her range is notaably Muk but everything she lands is potential including aerials. Her grabbox is terrible. She isnt really campy but she does pressure approaches.

Zelda is A2s baby

Kirby is the biggest threat you will never see be a threat because he cant get in. Jumping inhale bandaids inhale, hammer bash bandaids hammer flip, wave cutter and upper cutter are respectable up specials. You can read Kirby twice and he'll bring it back in 1 but in all likelihood because of range/speed qualms he is put on the defensive and he does not have a strong defensive base. jigglypuff on the other hand can approach, fantastic mobility in the air + pounds shield pressure and generally good reward.
Kirby also has that fast jab and a great height. Kirby will remain in jiggles shadow.

Wft also has so combos like
Uthrow>uair>fair
Nair>ftilt>header
Nair>ftilt>uair>fair
Jab combo>dair

Zelda I see as mid she still has weaknesses that wall her like rush down fast characters and defensive characters that can completely shut her down

Kirby I feel is more combo reliant than jiggs tho since he has all these uair and utilt combos but I agree that jiggs is better in general

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also Sonic's fsmash is definitely bull ****.
It's between -4 and +1 on block.
... Power shield attacking with fast things just get power shielded.

MK's fsmash in brawl was -7. I would assume it's just short of 20 frame start up/probably faster than MKs.

Whoa wait, did you just say Sonic F-smash is the new ZSS D-smash?

Holy ****.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Now is where we be thankful it's not Sonic Boom Sonic with the longer legs lmfao. Could you imagine?

 

[Shaya]

Whoa wait, did you just say Sonic F-smash is the new ZSS D-smash?

Holy ****.

The length of time the punch is out is really long, I've power shielded jab at different situations with different results. At worst it's -8.
Like power shield jab and they've already started rolling behind me is bueno.

 

[Jaxas]

The length of time the punch is out is really long, I've power shielded jab at different situations with different results. At worse it's -8.
Like power shield jab and they've already started rolling behind me is bueno.

Just double checking, but that would be -8 on Shield Drop -> Attack, right? Not Shield->Grab/JC-whatever/etc?

 

[Shaya]

It's -8 at worst, so if he fsmashes on top of your face, your 7 frame grab should get it (although I doubt it will, the shield pushback of a 16% move is comparable to roll length).

Shield drops are 7 frames, so if it's -8, you have a 1 frame advantage on Sonic from a shield drop.

But as the power shielding is a "spacing tool", getting in on later frames of the hitbox is pretty feasible (imagine standing right outside of his range so fsmash wouldn't normally hit you then shield and as the shield is radiating that far ahead of your body it'll clash with the hitbox + power shield it) and then I get the jellys at NO PUNISHMENT ALLOWED.

 

[Jaxas]

It's -8 at worst, so if he fsmashes on top of your face, your 7 frame grab should get it (although I doubt it will, the shield pushback of a 16% move is comparable to roll length).

Shield drops are 7 frames, so if it's -8, you have a 1 frame advantage on Sonic from a shield drop.

But as the power shielding is a "spacing tool", getting in on later frames of the hitbox is pretty feasible (imagine standing right outside of his range so fsmash wouldn't normally hit you then shield and as the shield is radiating that far ahead of your body it'll clash with the hitbox + power shield it) and then I get the jellys at NO PUNISHMENT ALLOWED.

Shield drop is 7 frames? I thought it was 14melee, 7brawl, and 10sm4sh? I'm probably wrong, but figured I'd check.
So the best way to punish is by spotdodging it, or just not being in the area, right? Don't purposefully block it to transfer to a punish? I'll keep that in mind, thanks

 

[Shaya]

I wouldn't spot dodge it. The move has very low release time after charging. I'll still try to power shield it always, but I have to give it enough respect to not directly punish the move itself, but rather what the sonic player is going to do afterwards (shield, throw out a fast ground move, forward/backroll [primarily]).

ZSS Dsmash/MK's fsmash were the two examples in Brawl of similar moves. Although I think Sonic's fsmash has faster start up than those two and faster charge releases.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't think people complain about Fox and Falco because they're boring characters, but most likely because they're the most common characters. I don't watch enough Melee tournaments to back up that claim, but TBH4 was quite varied and was far more exciting than if Top 8 was exclusively Foxes and Falcos.

If people find Diddy boring, the problem probably isn't on Diddy's side.

Regardless, variety is also a strong factor to consider when talking about viewer entertainment.

Yeah, this is true: I was talking about both strength AND popularity there. Diddy is disliked only because he is popular.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I dislike Diddy because his noises annoy me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

-4 or a +1 on block? Lol

 

[-RedX-]

Wow, I had no clue Sonic's Fsmash was that silly. This means he can kinda get away with Fsmash on shield->jab/Dtilt/Ftilt/dash grab. WHAT.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I don't think people complain about Fox and Falco because they're boring characters, but most likely because they're the most common characters. I don't watch enough Melee tournaments to back up that claim, but TBH4 was quite varied and was far more exciting than if Top 8 was exclusively Foxes and Falcos.

They complain about them because, for one, Shine is a bull**** move, especially Fox's. Frame 1, jump cancelable, invincibility, combos into many things including itself, frame advantage on block, the list goes on. Add in the fact that both Fox/Falco have two of the best projectiles in the entire game while also having some of the best rushdown, combos, etc, theyre stupid broken ass characters who are only balanced by the fact that they can get 0-deathed by other top tiers.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Okay, so, besides finally prying some sonic impressions out of people, we've certainly been gong around in circle with with top tier talk.

In order to help talk about characters that aren't talked about, lets follow the following prompt:

1.04 comes out, and the perceived top tiers get wrecked. Like, Rosalina can't do damage except with Luma, Sonic can't move, Shiek's recovery instantly kills her, the works. Completely nerfed to the point of being competitively irrelevant.

Who are the best characters? Remember, you can't just say that the above top ten counter said character and that makes character bad.

(For this prompt, the following characters are removed from discussion:)


Without these guys, I think a tier list of the wee baby metagame we understand, with the big boys gone, could look something like this:

A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

(jeeze, so many characters, hard to categorize. hopefully, this actually generates talk and can try make sense of the mid tier pile.)