Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[David Viran]

Something interesting that was posted in the Ike skype chat recently:

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/669448127926149120

Supposedly, Quarter Circle DI works well against Ryu's strings due to high hitlag + multiple hits + how Ryu needs to position himself? I mean, those are all looking like BnB combos that normally hit and well, aren't. If that is the case, it could look as if it could be pretty important to know how to do that consistently against Ryu, particularly since it seems to be a way to get away from the lethal part of Up B. And well, if Ike can move out of the way enough, I'd imagine characters like Pikachu would have a pretty darn easy time.

According to twitter, this can be done with double stick SDI.

@NickRiddle

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

Alright:
it's an amazing jab but it's not as good without Luma.
again amazing jab but it isn't disjointed like Falcon's is.
nowhere near as strong & as much range, lack of a rapid jab.

Okay I need to be less rude.
will have Luma most of the match and when she has Luma her jab has 2x more utility in her gameplay than the next closest, , if you count this, and 5x more than everyone else's because of the fact that it's half of her neutral. It's an incredibly effective move, I can't be persuaded that many moves in the entire game come that close (of course, a few do). Without Luma Falcon's jab is better. But the reasons I said before more than compensate.

and are frame 1, which means there's no move in the whole game other than themselves that they will clank with when used at the same time. I know, when used at the same time sounds situational, but it does make a very big difference. So many CQC situations, including against Falcon, can be interrupted by the jab. has the same range on her jab. I just checked. She does 3 less damage, but I still think that her lower damage and 's lack of disjointedness are more than made up for by amazing frame data. And 's does insane damage as everyone knows...

I also have to correct myself in that half the cast definitely doesn't have a frame 3 jab. It's a substantial number, maybe 18, but not half.

 

[meleebrawler]

So, it just occurred to me that there might be a rough rock-paper-scissors element among the three main types of fighters in this game (represented by the Miis, Brawler, Swordfighter and Gunner).

The Brawler (this isn't referring to the Miis themselves specifically) loses to the Swordfighter due to the latter's greater range.
The Swordfighter loses to Gunner since they struggle to close in with their average mobility.
And the Gunner loses to the Brawler who has the mobility to evade their zoning and solidly beats them up close.

Of course with 50+ different characters it's almost never this clear-cut but it does seem to be a trend to assume characters like Wario, a Brawler, lose to swordies like Shulk for example due to their range advantage.

 

[BSP]

Okay I need to be less rude.
will have Luma most of the match and when she has Luma her jab has 2x more utility in her gameplay than the next closest, , if you count this, and 5x more than everyone else's because of the fact that it's half of her neutral. It's an incredibly effective move, I can't be persuaded that many moves in the entire game come that close (of course, a few do). Without Luma Falcon's jab is better. But the reasons I said before more than compensate.

and are frame 1, which means there's no move in the whole game other than themselves that they will clank with when used at the same time. I know, when used at the same time sounds situational, but it does make a very big difference. So many CQC situations, including against Falcon, can be interrupted by the jab. has the same range on her jab. I just checked. She does 3 less damage, but I still think that her lower damage and 's lack of disjointedness are more than made up for by amazing frame data. And 's does insane damage as everyone knows...

I also have to correct myself in that half the cast definitely doesn't have a frame 3 jab. It's a substantial number, maybe 18, but not half.

Pac-Man's trampoline is F1. Oddly enough, he can hold his own against those two in cqc

 

[Mario766]

Noji busting out the knowledge. He plays with 9B and the gang basically every day so he is easily one of the more credible for Ryu MU knowledge.


I'm stealing this.

Though looking at his posts with my super informal Japanese understanding, it's pretty simple and just a lot of SDI. Probably only relevant for the Ryu MU but if a solid Ike starts busting this out it'll make the MU a lot meaner for Ryu, because he no longer would get the absurd reward he gets from a single hit.

 

[Amadeus9]

I know I should just ignore this low tier troll, but for God's sake.

his falling uair is garbage.

His jab that is so praised is very mediocre. It doesn't have great range, it has bad endlag...

He has no combos.

He gets nothing off of grabs.

But he ain't gonna be stringing any moves together

Good players don't lose to Falcon. All it takes is half a brain. This character is doing NOTHING right now against the top in the game.

I am so completely floored that this is a post that exists. Honestly, completely flabbergasted. I thought things were bad with that one Jigglypuff post, but no, let's just go ahead and ignore tournament results completely from Fatality and others, let's get blindly relative by calling an entire kit trash because of a set of unsubstantiated and completely ignorant opinions that that falcons tools are worse than those of other characters, which is such a monstrosity of ineptitude in thinking I shouldn't even have to explain. Oh and also let's say falcon can't combo, because that's a hot meme :} I mean, combos don't even exist because of DI, any idiot can DI out of a combo lollllll, and by the way if you die to fox uthrow uair in melee you are just an idiot haha, bad at this game, should just stop playing.

****

 

[RonNewcomb]

So, it just occurred to me that there might be a rough rock-paper-scissors element among the three main types of fighters in this game (represented by the Miis, Brawler, Swordfighter and Gunner).

The Brawler (this isn't referring to the Miis themselves specifically) loses to the Swordfighter due to the latter's greater range.
The Swordfighter loses to Gunner since they struggle to close in with their average mobility.
And the Gunner loses to the Brawler who has the mobility to evade their zoning and solidly beats them up close.

Of course with 50+ different characters it's almost never this clear-cut but it does seem to be a trend to assume characters like Wario, a Brawler, lose to swordies like Shulk for example due to their range advantage.

I agree with the idea, but I would've sliced it differently, putting swordies & shooters into "zoning", big slow & heavy dudes into "heavyweights" and paper-weight speed demons into "rushdown" and say heavies lose to zoners, zoners lose to rushdown, and rushdown loses to heavies... except paper-weight rushdown actually beats everyone at a competitve level, which is why swordies are mid-tier and heavies bottom-tier.

I guess what I'm saying is there are fast brawlers like Fox and slow brawlers like Bowser and they ain't in the same category.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I still think the talk that @Zylach and the other two notable Zelda mains made was fantastic, pretty much all of it was spot on.
Congrats to these 3, they show that Zelda isn't what most people still entirely conceive her to be, she may have some troubles, but she can still work.
What does everyone else think about what they said, do most here agree or get a better understanding?
Once again great job Zylack and the 2 others who I forgot xD

 

[Trifroze]

I mistakenly assumed that you all were familiar with the word "mediocre". Means nothing special. So far nobody has given me one distinguishing quality of Falcon's jab that other jabs can't do.

This post. Frame 3 is really your reason? Beating everything is your reason? Yes, frame 3 moves tend to beat most everything. There isn't any other reason that his jab is beating "everything" except the frame data. No nonexistent imaginary priority, no, it's the frame data. You know who else has frame 1-3 jabs? A lot of characters. I don't mean a few, I mean I actually think over half the cast does. So how would frame 3 possibly distinguish it from the "nothing special" category?

Your other reasons, "great rapid jab," and, "gentleman is great too," Smh those aren't reasons. Please explain what distinguishes them from all the others. It can't be the damage. 9 damage? Aren't there like, a lot that do that much? Ryu's does 10 off the top of my head, and I think it's frame 2. It doesn't kill until 180 at the edge. So it can't be that either.

It sets up for grabs with 1-2-grab only in that catching someone shielding too long leads to grab. Just like, almost every other multi hit jab... It doesn't combo on hit into grabs like some characters. Holding it at the ledge is still not a distinguishing feature.

I'm not making this stuff up. Nobody has given any distinguishing features, so I have to ask if any of you all know what you are talking about or if you are just blindly accepting the, "Falcon's jab is the best in the game," BS when it clearly isn't? Everyone who has posted on the subject has totally dodged the question, or otherwise just can't think of any real reasons, which might be the source of this frustration.

Someone give me one legitimate reason why his jab would ever be considered better than:

I trimmed down the last as much as I could because to be the "best jab in the game" it has to be better than those three. But it should be easy for you all since there seems to be such a consensus on the matter.

There's a lot more to jabs than just speed or damage, and Falcon's jab is so good because it's great in every aspect:

- Fast at f3
- Low endlag on all hits, especially jab 2
- 3 active frames
- Decent damage at 9%
- Rapid jab does a lot of damage and reliably connects against fastfallers at low percents
- Holding it out repeats the hitbox extremely fast which beats out approaches, spotdodges and ledge getups
- Gentleman sends the opponent far even at 0%, giving you control
- Kills near the ledge at 130-150% depending on your rage, not at 180%

The only jab that contests Falcon is in my opinion Luigi, with faster startup and more damage but less active frames, more endlag and the inability to kill or hold hitboxes out, so Falcon still has a better one overall. Falcon's jab's only weakness is that it misses some landing animations in the game because it hits relatively high.

Rosalina's (Luma's) jab puts Luma vulnerable to be knocked off the stage every single time and it's always worth going for that and taking the punish, and if Luma isn't in front of Rosalina or present at all, her jab is super slow. It's only good when it hits or when you're pressuring someone with average or below average options on the ledge.

Little Mac's jab is fast but the rapid jab can be SDI'd out of easily by floaties and SDI'd into the ground for shield + punish by fastfallers, and the 3 hit jab doesn't link properly either at low percents. High cooldown on jab 1 and 2 as well, and jab 1 only has one active frame meaning it doesn't catch moving opponents nearly as likely as Falcon's or even Luigi's jabs.

ZSS' jab is fast as well and it's more reliable for connecting properly than Mac's, although the close-up hitbox can be SDI'd out of and punished quite easily at higher percents. It does very low damage though and like with Little Mac's jab, jab 1 only has one active frame and jab 1 and 2 both have high cooldown. Jab 1 has quite a bit more range than Mac's or Falcon's jabs though, but slightly less than on Luigi's. I think it's Falcon > Luigi > ZSS > Mac > Rosalina/Luma out of these characters.

A frame 1 jab is a really good thing to have but honestly isn't any better than a frame 2 one in 90% of the scenarios. Even a frame 3 jab does the exact same job most of the time. There's a lot more important things to consider when it comes to practical scenarios, and I really noticed the difference when switching from Falcon to ZSS. I always thought it'd be amazing to have ZSS' jab on Falcon, but after experiencing both I sometimes think the opposite.

Dthrow -> knee is guaranteed at some percentages Trifroze knows this I'm sure

Yeah, that's inescapeable for Pikachu, Rosalina, Mewtwo, G&W, Kirby and Jigglypuff because of a combination of their weight, tumble animations, hurtboxes and stuff, similar to Doc's dthrow to fair on light characters.

 

[Smog Frog]

i'd say is closer to a swordie than he is to a brawler. big range, invincible(so basically disjointed) limbs during his attacks(at least for ftilt), and in general holds his space very well.

this isn't to say he is a swordie, just that he falls somewhere between a brawler/swordie hybrid, being more swordie.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Let's talk about future patches and what they might do to characters.
Wait never mind all we are doing is getting derailed by a troll. carry on then.

 

[Ffamran]

Someone give me one legitimate reason why his jab would ever be considered better than:

I trimmed down the last as much as I could because to be the "best jab in the game" it has to be better than those three. But it should be easy for you all since there seems to be such a consensus on the matter.

Personally, I'd argue against ZSS's jab and put Fox, Lucas, perhaps Mega Man because of his unique jab, Ftilt, and Nair, or even Robin solely because of how powerful and well-connecting her rapid/wind jab is while fire jab just outright kills given the chance. Why? 'Cause ZSS's jab only has speed as a factor. Range, coverage, and damage? Her jab's pretty mediocre since she can't use really jab to grab due to her slow grab and weak knockback. I don't know why, but for whatever reason, her jab 1 will whiff on shorter characters while I think Ryu's seems disjointed vertically letting him cover say a Pikachu running. This is despite the fact both of them jab pretty high up compared to say, Ganondorf who despite being tall, slightly below his shoulder instead of doing a backhand above shoulder level.

Why people say Captain Falcon's jab is for multiple reasons: one, it is fast. Yes, there are frame 2 and below moves, but frame 3 is still pretty fast, hence, why people complain about frame 3 aerials breaking combos by mashing. Two, Captain Falcon's jab 1 refresh - some characters can hold down attack and continue jabbing in place - is among the fastest with Little Mac. The other one is that each part of his jab lingers longer that other jabs. For instance, Fox's jab 1 is frame 2, jab 2 is frame 2-3, and rapid jab finisher is frame 3-4; that's only 1 active frame for jab 1 and 2 for the rest of his known jab data. Little Mac's jab 1 is frame 1, jab 2 is frame 1-2, jab 3 is frame 4, and rapid jab finisher is frame 5; he only has 1 active frame per jab part. Captain Falcon's jab 1 is frame 3-5, jab 2 is frame 5-7, jab 3 is frame 6-8, and rapid jab finisher is frame 6-7, so jab 1, 2, and 3 have 3 active frames and rapid jab finisher has 2. Similarly, Ryu's jab 2 and jab 3 have very high active frames; jab 2 is frame 3-5, 3 active frames, and jab 3 is frame 8-10, 5 active frames, but what matters is the initial contact, jab 1, which for Ryu is only frame 2-3, a "normal" 2 active frame jab. When Captain Falcon jabs, especially jab 1, he pulls back fast. Animation-wise, that's a "proper" jab if you're talking about it in terms of boxing. There is no "posing" like what happens when Falco and ZSS jab. At the same time, the higher active frames means that even though he pulled back, he might actually still have a hitbox out - yay, more Captain Falcon hitbox shenanigans. Note: none of this includes transition frames which is when a character's jab combo can transition at the earliest. So, even though Captain Falcon's jab 2 is frame 5, he might be able to transition from jab 1 at frame 4 making it a very fast transition compared to say.

Now, the other part is comparing it to other jabs, particularly, how they connect. Captain Falcon has always been known for having a well-connecting jab since 64? or Melee at least. Other characters? Not so much like Marth's jab was so-so until patch 1.0.6? if I remember correctly changing it so it was more vertical letting Marth followup more easily since his jabs are 2 uppercuts with his Falchion. Or perhaps Diddy whose jab was dysfunctional because rapid jab wouldn't connect properly meaning characters would fall out or just not get hit. Even Ike, who was known for having a good jab in Brawl, ended up with a crappier jab in Smash 4 until patch 1.0.8 re-tuned it to connect better and transition faster like in Brawl, but not as fast as or crazy as Brawl.

You mentioned that you believed Falco's jab was good and better than Captain Falcon's... It's not... The transition from Brawl to Smash 4 was harsh on Falco's jab despite it not being an abusive move at all. +7 frames were added to both jab 1 and jab 2's total frames meaning Falco can barely manage jab mixups without getting punished and, for whatever inexplicable reason, his rapid jab transitions slower from jab 2 - about frame 2 to 4. This more or less means that Falco's jab does not connect well when doing full jab combos, the higher recovery means jab mixups are risky, and I'm going to assume hit angle changes were made since unlike other rapid jabs, Falco's pushes you forward very quickly unlike Fox and Captain Falcon's where it's slower or Palutena, Robin, and Rosalina's where you can barely move. Unfortunately, rapid jab frame data is barely covered anywhere, so I don't know, but I can probably assume that Pally, Robin, and Rosie's jabs probably have auto-link angles or higher? - or is it lower? - SDI multipliers assuming SDI affects rapid jabs. To make matters worse, Falco's rapid jab has a narrow hitbox and despite the Pits having narrow rapid jabs, theirs is disjointed; Falco's isn't. This means that Jigglypuff can Rest during Falco's rapid jab because of the I-frames on Rest's startup combined with her making contact with Falco's hurtbox. Hitbox-wise, it's shoddy enough where Little Mac, a fast faller, can jump out easily, Lucario can land in between his jab 2 and rapid jab, and Captain Falcon, Luigi, Mario, and ZSS at low percents lands fast enough they can jab or grab through Falco's. The time between his jabs are all negative on-hit if you choose not to go through a complete jab combo. It's to the point where theoretically, at around Mario's weight, anyone with a frame 8 and below move can punish him, though, in practice, it's more like frame 5 and below. There are hard punishes that are below frame 8 and 5 like Ryu's Shoryuken, Yoshi and Luigi's Nair, Roy's grounded Blazer which has armor unlike on the ground, Luigi's Super Jump Punch, and pre- and post-patch 1.1.0 Luigi's D-throw combos/setups. If they aren't hard punishes, they're still going to get more mileage or better positioning like Mario doing a Nair or Super Jump Punch will definitely net more than 3% to 5% from a failed jab combo or mixup from Falco.

Rapid jabs having poor connections isn't limited to Falco. It involved Diddy as mentioned before, Greninja, Captain Falcon, and even Fox. Difference? Hitbox coverage like Greninja and Captain Falcon's being larger, different options like Greninja and Captain Falcon can choose to do 3-hit jab combos instead of rapid jabs or choose to do incomplete jabs more safely because of lower recovery, Diddy's getting fixed, Fox's gaining a phantom hit between his jab 2 and rapid jab, and how they hit or what kind of hit like the Pits being disjointed so even if people fall out, it's not going to be easy to just clank or hit through them.

Oh, and one last thing, for the love of all that is good and boxing, developers, please make it so Little Mac's jab input is the same as everyone else. Yes, we know his rapid jab is awesome, but I'd like it if I can input his 3-hit jab without accidentally going into rapid jab. Hell, this "homogenization" would actually fit with Little Mac being a boxer: boxers don't commit unless they know they're going to get more than one hit. There is no reason why Little Mac's "natural", hold down A jab is a rapid jab instead of his 3-hit jab. Also, please make Shulk's jab at least frame 4. It's not freaking rocket science on how to punch. Seriously, watch how Shulk jabs. He actually looks confused if you don't go into jab 2 and the time he takes to jab also makes him look confused on how to attack.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

if you die to fox uthrow uair in melee you are just an idiot haha, bad at this game, should just stop playing.

Please tell me you're not being serious.

 

[Vyrnx]

I know I should just ignore this low tier troll, but for God's sake.

I am so completely floored that this is a post that exists. Honestly, completely flabbergasted. I thought things were bad with that one Jigglypuff post, but no, let's just go ahead and ignore tournament results completely from Fatality and others, let's get blindly relative by calling an entire kit trash because of a set of unsubstantiated and completely ignorant opinions that that falcons tools are worse than those of other characters, which is such a monstrosity of ineptitude in thinking I shouldn't even have to explain. Oh and also let's say falcon can't combo, because that's a hot meme :} I mean, combos don't even exist because of DI, any idiot can DI out of a combo lollllll, and by the way if you die to fox uthrow uair in melee you are just an idiot haha, bad at this game, should just stop playing.

****

Honestly I am kind of scared to post this because of the way that guy got stepped all over (rightly so), but in some regards I kind of agree with him--although I don't agree with most of his stupid reasons.

For me it's just that Falcon is so easy to keep out. His size and fall speed make him easy to combo and he's really easy to edge guard. He has a good advantage state, but I feel like it's really hard for him to get in and convert most of the time.

I could agree with the notion that Falcon is high mid tier, maybe low high tier. But I've never really been convinced that he's a solid high tier.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The only thing that even came close to Falcon's jab was Little Mac pre-patch (the early one). Trifroze summed it up nicely: Active frames + speed + utility + damage + KO potential + low endlag + disjoint makes for the best jab in the game by far.

 

[Amadeus9]

Please tell me you're not being serious.

Bruh

 

[Ffamran]

In other news, VGBC has last night's Xanadu uploading, so if you wanted to see False's Ryu, Keitaro's Falco, or whatever, they're there. Also, apparently Keitaro and Seagull's set is the set of the week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_42lBOEQrA. I haven't seen it before, so I have no idea what was hype about it.

Edit: Okay, looking at the characters Keitaro had to play and the sets that were uploaded, it's not that surprising he did well. Sonic and Roy are used by LoF Blue? - I think it's Blue -, Ryu and Luigi are used by False, Emblem Lord, and someone else, Bowser is used by this one dude that I can't remember... Chaos?, and ROB might be Vinnie or someone... Hell, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, Mario, and Marth are characters Keitaro's familiar with. Not trying to undermine anything he did, but it was pretty much another day at the office for Keitaro, but with different "coworkers". Now, if he fought an unfamiliar character like Robin like at EVO, he might have had trouble.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Please tell me you're not being serious.

He was obviously mocking someone man.


One thing that pissed me off on here is when people think single frames mean a lot. One frame is 1/60 of a SECOND to remind you all. A frame 1 jab like is great, it comes out the fastest possible, but then you realize that a frame 3 jab like is almost JUST AS FAST! There is a 2 frame difference. There will rarely be a situation where those 2 frames actually matter. A fast option that is not reactable. Jesus guys, a 2 FRAME difference doesn't mean the world.

 

[Y2Kay]

I go work on getting thanksgiving dinner ready and when I come back, the whole thread went down the gutter wholly cow!

Er-ehm! Anyway......

Keitaro got 4th at Xanadu with only Falco, so that's a thing. I learned a thing or two watching him about falco.
While we're on the topic of the falco v Ryu, there's is a set where Keitaro played @HoodedAltair : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KdR9oWQ7rt0
Yeah it's definitely in ryu's favor, but if the falco player is really good, he should pull it off. It didn't seem as Keitaro could really deal with TRSK. There was quite a few times where Keitaro was up on hooded, but then a little combo here, a TRSK there, and WHAM, Hooded was back in the game / in the lead. I'd imagine how demoralizing that would be.

 

[adom4]

In other news, VGBC has last night's Xanadu uploading, so if you wanted to see False's Ryu, Keitaro's Falco, or whatever, they're there. Also, apparently Keitaro and Seagull's set is the set of the week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_42lBOEQrA. I haven't seen it before, so I have no idea what was hype about it.

Edit: Okay, looking at the characters Keitaro had to play and the sets that were uploaded, it's not that surprising he did well. Sonic and Roy are used by LoF Blue? - I think it's Blue -, Ryu and Luigi are used by False, Emblem Lord, and someone else, Bowser is used by this one dude that I can't remember... Chaos?, and ROB might be Vinnie or someone... Hell, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, Mario, and Marth are characters Keitaro's familiar with. Not trying to undermine anything he did, but it was pretty much another day at the office for Keitaro, but with different "coworkers". Now, if he fought an unfamiliar character like Robin like at EVO, he might have had trouble.

He really abused the quake hit on Fair, Falco's Fair in general is pretty good (And Bair is insane).

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

Personally, I'd argue against ZSS's jab and put Fox, Lucas, perhaps Mega Man because of his unique jab, Ftilt, and Nair, or even Robin solely because of how powerful and well-connecting her rapid/wind jab is while fire jab just outright kills given the chance. Why? 'Cause ZSS's jab only has speed as a factor. Range, coverage, and damage? Her jab's pretty mediocre since she can't use really jab to grab due to her slow grab and weak knockback. I don't know why, but for whatever reason, her jab 1 will whiff on shorter characters while I think Ryu's seems disjointed vertically letting him cover say a Pikachu running. This is despite the fact both of them jab pretty high up compared to say, Ganondorf who despite being tall, slightly below his shoulder instead of doing a backhand above shoulder level.

Why people say Captain Falcon's jab is for multiple reasons: one, it is fast. Yes, there are frame 2 and below moves, but frame 3 is still pretty fast, hence, why people complain about frame 3 aerials breaking combos by mashing. Two, Captain Falcon's jab 1 refresh - some characters can hold down attack and continue jabbing in place - is among the fastest with Little Mac. The other one is that each part of his jab lingers longer that other jabs. For instance, Fox's jab 1 is frame 2, jab 2 is frame 2-3, and rapid jab finisher is frame 3-4; that's only 1 active frame for jab 1 and 2 for the rest of his known jab data. Little Mac's jab 1 is frame 1, jab 2 is frame 1-2, jab 3 is frame 4, and rapid jab finisher is frame 5; he only has 1 active frame per jab part. Captain Falcon's jab 1 is frame 3-5, jab 2 is frame 5-7, jab 3 is frame 6-8, and rapid jab finisher is frame 6-7, so jab 1, 2, and 3 have 3 active frames and rapid jab finisher has 2. Similarly, Ryu's jab 2 and jab 3 have very high active frames; jab 2 is frame 3-5, 3 active frames, and jab 3 is frame 8-10, 5 active frames, but what matters is the initial contact, jab 1, which for Ryu is only frame 2-3, a "normal" 2 active frame jab. When Captain Falcon jabs, especially jab 1, he pulls back fast. Animation-wise, that's a "proper" jab if you're talking about it in terms of boxing. There is no "posing" like what happens when Falco and ZSS jab. At the same time, the higher active frames means that even though he pulled back, he might actually still have a hitbox out - yay, more Captain Falcon hitbox shenanigans. Note: none of this includes transition frames which is when a character's jab combo can transition at the earliest. So, even though Captain Falcon's jab 2 is frame 5, he might be able to transition from jab 1 at frame 4 making it a very fast transition compared to say.

Now, the other part is comparing it to other jabs, particularly, how they connect. Captain Falcon has always been known for having a well-connecting jab since 64? or Melee at least. Other characters? Not so much like Marth's jab was so-so until patch 1.0.6? if I remember correctly changing it so it was more vertical letting Marth followup more easily since his jabs are 2 uppercuts with his Falchion. Or perhaps Diddy whose jab was dysfunctional because rapid jab wouldn't connect properly meaning characters would fall out or just not get hit. Even Ike, who was known for having a good jab in Brawl, ended up with a crappier jab in Smash 4 until patch 1.0.8 re-tuned it to connect better and transition faster like in Brawl, but not as fast as or crazy as Brawl.

You mentioned that you believed Falco's jab was good and better than Captain Falcon's... It's not... The transition from Brawl to Smash 4 was harsh on Falco's jab despite it not being an abusive move at all. +7 frames were added to both jab 1 and jab 2's total frames meaning Falco can barely manage jab mixups without getting punished and, for whatever inexplicable reason, his rapid jab transitions slower from jab 2 - about frame 2 to 4. This more or less means that Falco's jab does not connect well when doing full jab combos, the higher recovery means jab mixups are risky, and I'm going to assume hit angle changes were made since unlike other rapid jabs, Falco's pushes you forward very quickly unlike Fox and Captain Falcon's where it's slower or Palutena, Robin, and Rosalina's where you can barely move. Unfortunately, rapid jab frame data is barely covered anywhere, so I don't know, but I can probably assume that Pally, Robin, and Rosie's jabs probably have auto-link angles or higher? - or is it lower? - SDI multipliers assuming SDI affects rapid jabs. To make matters worse, Falco's rapid jab has a narrow hitbox and despite the Pits having narrow rapid jabs, theirs is disjointed; Falco's isn't. This means that Jigglypuff can Rest during Falco's rapid jab because of the I-frames on Rest's startup combined with her making contact with Falco's hurtbox. Hitbox-wise, it's shoddy enough where Little Mac, a fast faller, can jump out easily, Lucario can land in between his jab 2 and rapid jab, and Captain Falcon, Luigi, Mario, and ZSS at low percents lands fast enough they can jab or grab through Falco's. The time between his jabs are all negative on-hit if you choose not to go through a complete jab combo. It's to the point where theoretically, at around Mario's weight, anyone with a frame 8 and below move can punish him, though, in practice, it's more like frame 5 and below. There are hard punishes that are below frame 8 and 5 like Ryu's Shoryuken, Yoshi and Luigi's Nair, Roy's grounded Blazer which has armor unlike on the ground, Luigi's Super Jump Punch, and pre- and post-patch 1.1.0 Luigi's D-throw combos/setups. If they aren't hard punishes, they're still going to get more mileage or better positioning like Mario doing a Nair or Super Jump Punch will definitely net more than 3% to 5% from a failed jab combo or mixup from Falco.

Rapid jabs having poor connections isn't limited to Falco. It involved Diddy as mentioned before, Greninja, Captain Falcon, and even Fox. Difference? Hitbox coverage like Greninja and Captain Falcon's being larger, different options like Greninja and Captain Falcon can choose to do 3-hit jab combos instead of rapid jabs or choose to do incomplete jabs more safely because of lower recovery, Diddy's getting fixed, Fox's gaining a phantom hit between his jab 2 and rapid jab, and how they hit or what kind of hit like the Pits being disjointed so even if people fall out, it's not going to be easy to just clank or hit through them.

Oh, and one last thing, for the love of all that is good and boxing, developers, please make it so Little Mac's jab input is the same as everyone else. Yes, we know his rapid jab is awesome, but I'd like it if I can input his 3-hit jab without accidentally going into rapid jab. Hell, this "homogenization" would actually fit with Little Mac being a boxer: boxers don't commit unless they know they're going to get more than one hit. There is no reason why Little Mac's "natural", hold down A jab is a rapid jab instead of his 3-hit jab. Also, please make Shulk's jab at least frame 4. It's not freaking rocket science on how to punch. Seriously, watch how Shulk jabs. He actually looks confused if you don't go into jab 2 and the time he takes to jab also makes him look confused on how to attack.

Honestly I liked this post, even though it took forever to read and quoting it lagged out my computer.
My reason for Falco is, all data aside, trapping someone against the ledge with rapid jab is still incredibly effective in this game. The transition was bad for his jab, but honestly I am still impressed with this move.

There's a lot more to jabs than just speed or damage, and Falcon's jab is so good because it's great in every aspect:

- Fast at f3
- Low endlag on all hits, especially jab 2
- 3 active frames
- Decent damage at 9%
- Rapid jab does a lot of damage and reliably connects against fastfallers at low percents
- Holding it out repeats the hitbox extremely fast which beats out approaches, spotdodges and ledge getups
- Gentleman sends the opponent far even at 0%, giving you control
- Kills near the ledge at 130-150% depending on your rage, not at 180%

The only jab that contests Falcon is in my opinion Luigi, with faster startup and more damage but less active frames, more endlag and the inability to kill or hold hitboxes out, so Falcon still has a better one overall. Falcon's jab's only weakness is that it misses some landing animations in the game because it hits relatively high.

Rosalina's (Luma's) jab puts Luma vulnerable to be knocked off the stage every single time and it's always worth going for that and taking the punish, and if Luma isn't in front of Rosalina or present at all, her jab is super slow. It's only good when it hits or when you're pressuring someone with average or below average options on the ledge.

Little Mac's jab is fast but the rapid jab can be SDI'd out of easily by floaties and SDI'd into the ground for shield + punish by fastfallers, and the 3 hit jab doesn't link properly either at low percents. High cooldown on jab 1 and 2 as well, and jab 1 only has one active frame meaning it doesn't catch moving opponents nearly as likely as Falcon's or even Luigi's jabs.

ZSS' jab is fast as well and it's more reliable for connecting properly than Mac's, although the close-up hitbox can be SDI'd out of and punished quite easily at higher percents. It does very low damage though and like with Little Mac's jab, jab 1 only has one active frame and jab 1 and 2 both have high cooldown. Jab 1 has quite a bit more range than Mac's or Falcon's jabs though, but slightly less than on Luigi's. I think it's Falcon > Luigi > ZSS > Mac > Rosalina/Luma out of these characters.

A frame 1 jab is a really good thing to have but honestly isn't any better than a frame 2 one in 90% of the scenarios. Even a frame 3 jab does the exact same job most of the time. There's a lot more important things to consider when it comes to practical scenarios, and I really noticed the difference when switching from Falcon to ZSS. I always thought it'd be amazing to have ZSS' jab on Falcon, but after experiencing both I sometimes think the opposite.



Yeah, that's inescapeable for Pikachu, Rosalina, Mewtwo, G&W, Kirby and Jigglypuff because of a combination of their weight, tumble animations, hurtboxes and stuff, similar to Doc's dthrow to fair on light characters.

I liked this explanation and you obviously know what you're talking about. But really, his jab just isn't abusive like Rosa's. I'm surprised people think Falcon's is better when I think Rosa's jab is one of the better moves in the game. Without her jab, Rosa would not be anywhere near where she is today, whereas Falcon would still be decent.

And every frame counts. It's always incredibly frustrating when Mac's F1 jab beats freaking everything. Things that Yoshi's jab doesn't, for instance.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just to add to the Falcon Jab discussion quickly.

Falcon's Rapid Jab is kind of silly frame-wise. There's a hitbox active on frames 3, 4 and 5, then there's a break on frames 6, 7 and 8, and once again a hitbox on 9, 10 and 11, etc. To compare, Fox's Rapid Jab has a hitbox active on frame 2, then there's a break on frames 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, and then there's a hitbox on frame 8, etc.

 

[Trifroze]

Honestly I liked this post, even though it took forever to read and quoting it lagged out my computer.
My reason for Falco is, all data aside, trapping someone against the ledge with rapid jab is still incredibly effective in this game. The transition was bad for his jab, but honestly I am still impressed with this move.

I liked this explanation and you obviously know what you're talking about. But really, his jab just isn't abusive like Rosa's. I'm surprised people think Falcon's is better when I think Rosa's jab is one of the better moves in the game. Without her jab, Rosa would not be anywhere near where she is today, whereas Falcon would still be decent.

And every frame counts. It's always incredibly frustrating when Mac's F1 jab beats freaking everything. Things that Yoshi's jab doesn't, for instance.

What makes Mac's jab so annoying is something I completely forgot to take into account, and it's the fact that it can't be interrupted. If it clashes with anything, the move will continue normally, and since it's a multi-hit it means it's simply going to win clashes. There are very few moves like that in the game, and I think Mac has three.

Rosalina's jab is much like the character itself in the sense that it's really abusive in some matchups because the opponent can't punish it or get around it, while in other MUs she really has to think about throwing it out as much as the next person. It's more of a zoning tool than a conventional jab so it's hard to judge on the same level.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, it just occurred to me that there might be a rough rock-paper-scissors element among the three main types of fighters in this game (represented by the Miis, Brawler, Swordfighter and Gunner).

The Brawler (this isn't referring to the Miis themselves specifically) loses to the Swordfighter due to the latter's greater range.
The Swordfighter loses to Gunner since they struggle to close in with their average mobility.
And the Gunner loses to the Brawler who has the mobility to evade their zoning and solidly beats them up close.

Of course with 50+ different characters it's almost never this clear-cut but it does seem to be a trend to assume characters like Wario, a Brawler, lose to swordies like Shulk for example due to their range advantage.

Who's the Brawlers, who's the gunners, and whos the swordfighters in this game? All 55 characters please?

 

[Ffamran]

He really abused the quake hit on Fair, Falco's Fair in general is pretty good (And Bair is insane).

Really shouldn't be abusing Fair like that honestly. That being said, if people don't know about it, it "works". I'd rather not deal with Fair's 25 frame of landing lag, though. Then again, it's Keitaro who will back roll at the ledge 4 times, spam Side Smash 7 times, and repeat the same setup 10 times and guess what? It's works because it's Keitaro.

Also, Bair being insane? Have you seen Ally's Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fF-KHP9eQA? Keitaro and Ally will go Wolf on you with Bair. The only difference? Falco's regular hop compared to Wolf's low hop means Falco is forced to delay his Bair at times and that delay can kill people which happened to practically everyone Keitaro fought last night.

Just to add to the Falcon Jab discussion quickly.

Falcon's Rapid Jab is kind of silly frame-wise. There's a hitbox active on frames 3, 4 and 5, then there's a break on frames 6, 7 and 8, and once again a hitbox on 9, 10 and 11, etc. To compare, Fox's Rapid Jab has a hitbox active on frame 2, then there's a break on frames 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, and then there's a hitbox on frame 8, etc.

Yeah... that might need to get tweaked... I don't know why Captain Falcon's jab has so many active frames. Hell, 3 active frames is considered a lot for most types of moves outside of stuff like flip kicks/slashes for juggling which are justified because the way they arc. In general, arcing moves tend to have higher active frames, but linear attacks like jabs, kicks, etc.? Not really. I can sort of understand why Ryu's jab 2 and 3 have high active frames because maybe hit lag can actually screw with it along with the slower startup and transition - Ryu's jab looks hilariously slow, but hilariously connects easily.

This, coupled with Ryu's invincible light Ftilt, partial invincibility on almost everything DK has, the high base knockback on Luma's attacks, the fact that for whatever reason, and set knockback doesn't seem to be "set" when rage (and hitting characters charging Smashes) are questionable.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I thought we all confirmed many months back that Falcon jab is good.

 

[Mili]

Something interesting that was posted in the Ike skype chat recently:

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/669448127926149120

Supposedly, Quarter Circle DI works well against Ryu's strings due to high hitlag + multiple hits + how Ryu needs to position himself? I mean, those are all looking like BnB combos that normally hit and well, aren't. If that is the case, it could look as if it could be pretty important to know how to do that consistently against Ryu, particularly since it seems to be a way to get away from the lethal part of Up B. And well, if Ike can move out of the way enough, I'd imagine characters like Pikachu would have a pretty darn easy time.

This SDI does work to get out of Ryu's Up-Tilt combos but there is a key problem when saying, "yay now I can get away from his kill confirms". Ryu has 4 kill confirms into TSRK and each Ryu player uses different confirms depending on their playstyle. For example, 6WX often uses Jab 1 -> TSRK whereas Trela mostly uses D-Tilt -> TSRK (also often uses D-Air -> TSRK). Furthermore, once Ryu players catch on to people's SDI out of the Up-Tilt combos, we can simply adjust by ending them and continuing combos elsewhere.

Depending on the character, Light Up-Tilt -> Strong Up-Tilt -> TSRK is a ton of damage as well as Light Up-Tilt -> 2x Light D-Tilt -> Strong D-Tilt -> Tatsu / Shakunetsu. If Up-Tilt becomes less of a strong kill confirm, Ryu players will simply mould their playstyle into other kill confirms. Personally, my training partner obviously knows how to SDI out of Up-Tilt combos plus he has the use of Shadow Sneak (as he plays ), so I simply do 2-3 Up-Tilts then combo further through D-Tilt into TSRK.

Jab 1 is also a really strong kill confirm because it comes out pretty fast (frame 3, I believe. Ffamran I'm sure you can confirm) and has decent range for a Jab. Overall, I think will stay in a similar position in the metagame because I assume that more tech will be discovered and people will slowly adjust as more people start playing him. Seriously though, why do such a little amount of people play him?

--

On a side note, and I'm not sure if this has been properly discussed yet, what do you all think that MSC's discovery / usage of Lagless Ledge Get-Up will affect the metagame in the future? A large multitude of characters seemingly can perform it now (including , , and importantly and ), so I assume people will become more consistent which would change a lot of ledge-play that exists currently.

 

[FullMoon]

Does Greninja jab really have low recovery on it? I always thought it had more than average.

 

[Dre89]

i'd say is closer to a swordie than he is to a brawler. big range, invincible(so basically disjointed) limbs during his attacks(at least for ftilt), and in general holds his space very well.

this isn't to say he is a swordie, just that he falls somewhere between a brawler/swordie hybrid, being more swordie.

Bowser is the classic brawler/ grappler

His whole neutral game is just jab boxing and grabs.

Traditional swordies are more about controlling space. Bowser is more of a zone breaker in that he's more about using burst and wrecking you in CQC with his jab reward and reaction-upbs.

 

[Ffamran]

Does Greninja jab really have low recovery on it? I always thought it had more than average.

If I recall correctly, 17 to 18 is average and if we do 2 frame thresholds, recovery frames around 15 and below are fast, 20 and above is slow. At the same time, you'll have to factor in knockback, hit angle, and damage. So, Falco's jab 1 takes 18 frames to recover which is pretty average, but since he doesn't do a lot of knockback or set knockback unlike say, Ike's jab, he's kind of screwed... This was the same as Samus's jab 1 which I don't know what they did exactly, but its low recovery works with its low knockback and damage to be an actual jab.

 

[FullMoon]

If I recall correctly, 17 to 18 is average and if we do 2 frame thresholds, recovery frames around 15 and below are fast, 20 and above is slow. At the same time, you'll have to factor in knockback, hit angle, and damage. So, Falco's jab 1 takes 18 frames to recover which is pretty average, but since he doesn't do a lot of knockback or set knockback unlike say, Ike's jab, he's kind of screwed... This was the same as Samus's jab 1 which I don't know what they did exactly, but its low recovery works with its low knockback and damage to be an actual jab.

Well, the fact that Greninja's jab 1 does less damage and less knockback than Falco's should say something then.

 

[Ffamran]

Well, the fact that Greninja's jab 1 does less damage and less knockback than Falco's should say something then.

Greninja's jab 1 takes 3 frames less to recover and doesn't send people up as high meaning they're probably going to have to land faster than with Falco's. Just slightly, though, but I don't know where the hit angles are on Greninja's since it's apparently 70, 60, and 80 degrees to Falco's 68, 77, and 80 degrees.

Also, watching Keitaro and Seagull's set... Yes, Nair's last hit is slightly disjointed. Probably explains why Keitaro was able to clip Seagull despite Seagull having a beat on him.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Didn't answer this, but Keitaro managed to take Smash 4-ever #28 against Mr. E. He didn't fight Avalon, Ribs, or Raptor, so Mario, Ness, and Lucas, or False since he didn't participate and Mr. E SD'd several times in grand finals and I think winners finals, so make of that as you will. Challonge: http://challonge.com/s4e28.

Eshura, a Falco and Pit player, almost took Roll Tier 6 and took out JJRockets in winners quarters: http://smashboards.com/threads/happy-feet-falco-video-thread.376351/page-12#post-20482517. I don't know if Roll Tier 6 is a regional or not... Gamegenie?

Also, apparently FOW decided to pick up Falco for Rosalina according to the commentator. Why? I have no idea, but dude's been making use of wall jump B-reverse lasers which I don't think any other Falco players do. In general, I don't see/notice a lot of wall jump usage outside of Falco players and outside of recovery reasons like Little Mac using wall jumps to recover.

Roll tier 6 was considered a regional for our neck of the woods. We had people from Colorado, South Dakota, Iowa, Kansas, Chicago and Nebraska folk here. Colorado came out in full force for smash 4 and pm though like Spartan's

 

[L9999]

I thought we all confirmed many months back that Falcon jab is good.

Yes, but MARTH_IS_BAE decided to go on "Radical Larry mode" for some reason. I can see where he is coming from when he talks about Ness, but not Falcon.

 

[Blobface]

This SDI does work to get out of Ryu's Up-Tilt combos but there is a key problem when saying, "yay now I can get away from his kill confirms". Ryu has 4 kill confirms into TSRK and each Ryu player uses different confirms depending on their playstyle. For example, 6WX often uses Jab 1 -> TSRK whereas Trela mostly uses D-Tilt -> TSRK (also often uses D-Air -> TSRK). Furthermore, once Ryu players catch on to people's SDI out of the Up-Tilt combos, we can simply adjust by ending them and continuing combos elsewhere.

Depending on the character, Light Up-Tilt -> Strong Up-Tilt -> TSRK is a ton of damage as well as Light Up-Tilt -> 2x Light D-Tilt -> Strong D-Tilt -> Tatsu / Shakunetsu. If Up-Tilt becomes less of a strong kill confirm, Ryu players will simply mould their playstyle into other kill confirms. Personally, my training partner obviously knows how to SDI out of Up-Tilt combos plus he has the use of Shadow Sneak (as he plays ), so I simply do 2-3 Up-Tilts then combo further through D-Tilt into TSRK.

Jab 1 is also a really strong kill confirm because it comes out pretty fast (frame 3, I believe. Ffamran I'm sure you can confirm) and has decent range for a Jab. Overall, I think will stay in a similar position in the metagame because I assume that more tech will be discovered and people will slowly adjust as more people start playing him. Seriously though, why do such a little amount of people play him?

--

On a side note, and I'm not sure if this has been properly discussed yet, what do you all think that MSC's discovery / usage of Lagless Ledge Get-Up will affect the metagame in the future? A large multitude of characters seemingly can perform it now (including , , and importantly and ), so I assume people will become more consistent which would change a lot of ledge-play that exists currently.

Will it help fastfaller/heavy characters? I know quite a few of them suffer a lot from Ryu's U-tilt.

Not necessarily matchup defining, but it would definitely be a plus if they could get out of it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

i'd say is closer to a swordie than he is to a brawler. big range, invincible(so basically disjointed) limbs during his attacks(at least for ftilt), and in general holds his space very well.

this isn't to say he is a swordie, just that he falls somewhere between a brawler/swordie hybrid, being more swordie.

Couldn't these same arguments be made for and too? I mean, I guess you could say there's brawlers and then there's big brawlers if you really want to categorize them this way: big characters with long range who hit like a truck when given the opportunity. I'd still definitely say is a brawler because if you play him like a swordsmen, you're going to run into shields a lot and oopsie doodles a lot trying to go deep off the stage. If you honestly had to compare him to a swordsman, I guess would be the closest but it's still kind of a stretch given how Ike has safer options and better set ups than Bowser. A lot of swordsmen can be reasonably defensive or offensive but I'd argue that a really aggro is going to wind up as combo food 9 times out of 10.

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf is definitely a swordsman type character. He likes to keep people at a certain range and a lot of his spacing tools have considerable disjoint (D-tilt, B-air, etc.).

 

[RonNewcomb]

Couldn't these same arguments be made for and too? I mean, I guess you could say there's brawlers and then there's big brawlers if you really want to categorize them this way: big characters with long range who hit like a truck when given the opportunity. I'd still definitely say is a brawler because if you play him like a swordsmen, you're going to run into shields a lot and oopsie doodles a lot trying to go deep off the stage. If you honestly had to compare him to a swordsman, I guess would be the closest but it's still kind of a stretch given how Ike has safer options and better set ups than Bowser. A lot of swordsmen can be reasonably defensive or offensive but I'd argue that a really aggro is going to wind up as combo food 9 times out of 10.

Hi, is this Swordies R Us? I'd like to inquire about my status.
I'm sorry, it seems we've lost your application.
What? Well do you know one of the "M. knights" mentioned on the "you must be this disjointed to" sign outside? If so he and I could just--
IT. WAS. LOST.

 

[meleebrawler]

Who's the Brawlers, who's the gunners, and whos the swordfighters in this game? All 55 characters please?

Well like I said my example is VERY rough with all the diversity in this game, as well as plenty of overlap in characters, such as Link, a swordsman who also has gunner elements.

Still, I'll give it a shot:

Brawler:


Swordfighter:


Gunners:

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is a mid-range fighter so he should be in the Swordfighter category.

That and, you know, he literally uses swords for some of his moves.