Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Nobie]

Well all you who care about Mewtwo here is another expert opinion article! Go learn what they think on the character and totally discuss here too.

I think the idea of ignoring Mewtwo's weight if you play him is pretty good, though more in the sense that losing as Mewtwo can feel very disheartening if just dwell on his negatives. Using him is as much a battle with yourself as the opponent, as moments of personal weakness, like greed, fear of the unknown, and more, are moments where your whole game plan and advantage can collapse. If you fish for grabs, you're going to die more quickly than anyone else. If you rely too much on d-tilt, you'll also eat something fierce. Of course if you panic roll you're going to get stomped.

As for characters, the only character, specifically the only move, that truly annoys me as Mewtwo is Falcon's dash grab.

 

[LightLV]

No. That's not true at all. People weren't playing 1v1s in Melee day one, they were playing FFAs like the rest of us.Brawl.

This is a false statement. Even if it were a true one, how could you even possibly make this presumption.

While having things unbalanced can be fun for awhile, once the reality that getting a few KOs and then spamming IDC for the rest of the match is optimal it destroys the fun of the game. If you want hilariously broken, that's what items are for.

Im pretty sure FFA is this way with or without items.

They're not really supposed to be balanced... If you want balanced FFAs you play for Glory rules.

Because flat, platform-less stages are balanced. Apparently.

Also, you suggesting For Glory is a balanced ruleset at all is an issue in itself.

No, Little Mac got nerfs and Diddy got buffs specifically for FFAs. How else do you explain them?

Samus remains bad in both FFA and 1v1. How do you explain her?

Ike was hilariously pathetic in all modes on 1.0, for instance.

Also a false statement, none of the heavies have ever been bad in FFA or team settings in this game. None of Ike's most abusable attacks for FFA have gotten any significant buffs at all. In fact, nearly all of his buffs are only really beneficial to him in a 1v1 setting.

Just dropping in to poke even more holes in this argument, but who's counting, right.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^Ike's Dash Attack got some pretty darn significant buffs, and that attack would be fairly important in a FFA. Its his one usable group clearing attack.

I'd also argue that fixing his jab combo so it actually, uh, combos counts as a FFA buff as well. And reducing the landing lag on his aerials so the other players have less time to punish him for using one.

 

[Vyrnx]

I'm being ornery for pointing this out, but

none of the heavies have ever been bad in FFA or team settings in this game.

Samus remains bad in both FFA and 1v1.

I agree with most of what you're saying though. And Samus is totally bad in FFA. Honesty she is better in 1v1 and that's saying something.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Something interesting that was posted in the Ike skype chat recently:

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/669448127926149120

Supposedly, Quarter Circle DI works well against Ryu's strings due to high hitlag + multiple hits + how Ryu needs to position himself? I mean, those are all looking like BnB combos that normally hit and well, aren't. If that is the case, it could look as if it could be pretty important to know how to do that consistently against Ryu, particularly since it seems to be a way to get away from the lethal part of Up B. And well, if Ike can move out of the way enough, I'd imagine characters like Pikachu would have a pretty darn easy time.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't think Falco's long range is bad and haven't done for a long time. I think your above post is quite level-headed though in the past you've lamented Falco's long range game unnecessarily.

Blaster is still a transcendent projectile with rapid fire capabilities, fast startup and excellent range. The ending lag makes it unsuitable for use at mid range, but at long range it's still a fantastic zoning tool.

Falco's mid range is worse because blaster isn't suitable for use, but reflector is still a very powerful mid range tool that you will usually get away with using.

It's very rare that I see Falco not able to force an approach in a MU, and it makes sense. He has a long range transcendent projectile and one of the best reflectors in the game. I can't think of many MUs, if any, where Falco can't force the opponent at least to mid range.

I said it was MU dependent. So, against Charizard, Falco's long-range neutral would be good enough to harass with sporadic, but not a constant stream of lasers. Against Sheik, it would be poor(er) as her Needles have much higher reward, lower recovery, and similar range. Although, Falco can defend himself with Reflector or challenge with Blaster. Then against someone like Mario and it's decent since both can control their zones without either of them blasting through like Fox, Sheik, ZSS, or Captain Falcon through sheer speed and/or also good or better long-range options.

Mid-range is where Falco really suffers. He's not mobile enough to close distances well, he doesn't have a projectile safe enough to use, and although he isn't a weapon user, not having disjoints is another issue since it's basically "safe range". Doesn't help that his range in general is short, especially his aerials and particularly Bair which don't extend as much unlike Captain Falcon, Fox, Ryu, Samus, and ZSS.

Reflector works as a poke so long as it hits unlike jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt where it doesn't matter or it's even is safer for Falco to hit shields at low to mid percents with jab and Ftilt. Reflector on-shield is really bad since there's little shield stun. It can be transcendent all it wants, but it is a punishable move and not having a melee hitbox despite Falco kicking does cause issues where if Falco uses Reflector and he gets hit, the graphics and sound play out, and nothing happens. It's still a minor issue. It works as a close-mid-range tool, but not a mid-range tool when other ones like Mario's Fireball, Luigi's Fireball, Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, and Greninja's Water Shuriken have more range and less recovery.

 

[FullMoon]

Something interesting that was posted in the Ike skype chat recently:

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/669448127926149120

Supposedly, Quarter Circle DI works well against Ryu's strings due to high hitlag + multiple hits + how Ryu needs to position himself? I mean, those are all looking like BnB combos that normally hit and well, aren't. If that is the case, it could look as if it could be pretty important to know how to do that consistently against Ryu, particularly since it seems to be a way to get away from the lethal part of Up B. And well, if Ike can move out of the way enough, I'd imagine characters like Pikachu would have a pretty darn easy time.

That looks pretty damn huge, being able to escape combos into TSK would make the Ryu much easier for most characters.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I feel like things can change between games. I'm actually a huge fan of technical characters in games

I'm a Vayne main in League, and in MVC3 I main Dante/Vergil who is super technica.

Guess I'm a big fan of a high skill cap, which I guess goes well with Ike. There's a lot of small things that pushes the skill cap of Ike because you have to execute to do well when you get out of the online scene and start playing in tournament scenes, as his weaknesses are more profound.

So does a "technical" character mean it takes a Brain to play them, because of the necessity of learning all the obscure trivia about their non-obvious-use moves, or does it mean it takes a Body to play them, because of all the extra buttons it takes to make them perform acceptably? I've heard the term used in both respects. For example, I've heard Juri and Gen are the most technical characters in SF4, but I'd say Gen is Body-technical because of all the mid-combo stance changes, whereas Juri is Brain-technical, because her entire moveset is counterintuitive with a lot of edge-case uses which are actually main cases. (For example, her divekick is the only divekick intended for air-to-air rather than air-to-ground, her Counter is intended as a get-in-on-someone tool, not as a get-off-me tool, etc.) (Well, you do have to hold buttons for her fireballs, but holding a button doesn't make Cody or El Fuerte technical.)

I used to think that the vs. matchup was heavily in Ryu's favour but I think it's more even than that. I still believe that Ryu has an advantage because Falco gets absolutely savaged by the young elbow and Ryu can keep up with Falco's combo game through heavy damage from most of his aerials (F-Air, B-Air etc.). Furthermore, because of Falco's nature as a fast-faller, Ryu can link a lot of moves (mostly N-Air) to do even more damage.

Now, I didn't watch the stream for Xanadu but it will be interesting for me to see how False approached the matchup, especially when they know each other so well. I think a good example of the vs. matchup are Hooded's sets against LoF_Keitaro.

I'll challenge conventional wisdom about never wanting to be near Ryu with this: Falco did pretty well last night because it's far less scary to be next to an airborne Ryu. He can't u-tilt confirm to TSRK in the air, and if any of his aerials combo to TSRK it would be a difficult hit-confirm. And if he can't, then airborne TSRK is a hard read, and it's possible to punish Ryu well for a whiff, so he'd rarely throw one out. I saw Falco getting a LOT of his damage off of air-to-air f-air, and what would Ryu do about it? Attack sooner? Don't get hit?

 

[Ffamran]

Forgot about this, but does Ryu's light Utilt strings work on everyone? If it does with certain situations where some characters are utterly screwed like how Shulk and Lucario? were utterly screwed if they were caught in Fox's pre-1.1.0 jab, they have to do something about that. Yes, it doesn't have a lot of range, but it's a low commitment, high speed, and absurd reward move.

They could "make another light Utilt" that's essentially the same as his current one and happens after his first light Utilt, but has different knockback, launch angle, etc. It would loop in a 1, 2, 1, 2, ... way, so the second hit could push people further out like Fox's jab 2. It wouldn't completely ruin Ryu's light Utilt to Shoryuken setup since he'd just have to run up like Fox does for Up Smash now. Convoluted way of changing it though...

Simplest would be increasing the total frames, changing launch angle, or knockback. I mean, 8 frames of recovery is silly - even Fox's jab never had that kind of recovery.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think the idea of ignoring Mewtwo's weight if you play him is pretty good, though more in the sense that losing as Mewtwo can feel very disheartening if just dwell on his negatives. Using him is as much a battle with yourself as the opponent, as moments of personal weakness, like greed, fear of the unknown, and more, are moments where your whole game plan and advantage can collapse. If you fish for grabs, you're going to die more quickly than anyone else. If you rely too much on d-tilt, you'll also eat something fierce. Of course if you panic roll you're going to get stomped.

As for characters, the only character, specifically the only move, that truly annoys me as Mewtwo is Falcon's dash grab.

Really people need to learn that for Mewtwo, good defence is what leads to a good offence most of the time.

 

[LancerStaff]

People weren't playing 1on1s in Melee day one? I played 1on1s in Smash 64 with my friends when I was 7, and I certainly did the same in Melee two years later. I don't follow your train of thought that FFA is the natural mode to go to, let alone the idea that people weren't playing 1on1s without some revolution happening that started it all.

If you want balanced FFAs you're going to keep wanting forever, it's the very definition of imbalance because there's a third party element; it's a mode where your goals are solo-oriented, yet you can team up with several players against one at will. Mario Kart for instance is a game like this, and while I played the series as competitively as it was possible to between 2008-2014, I wouldn't call FFAs balanced. It was balanced in a custom-made team setting, in which case it wasn't an FFA anymore, and the same goes for Smash.

There is no point in determining balance changes based on FFAs when it's a fundamentally unbalanced setting, although undoubtedly it's still a part of their weighing process, unfortunately so, and it's what's going to keep Sheik and ZSS on the top most likely.



Little Mac got nerfs because he was too abusive in FG for being so hard to deal with early on for most players, Diddy got buffs (fixes, to be fair) because he had two dysfunctional moves which didn't need FFA to showcase their dysfunctionality. Surely if balance patches target FFAs you can give better examples and more than two?

Ganondorf is getting buffs is because of his shortcomings in 1on1, and the only reason he's not getting more of them is to keep him from becoming overpowered in FFAs. There's a lot more to suggest it's this way, yet you're claiming the opposite and justifying Ganondorf's "FFA viability" with the assumption that the balance changes target FFA mode.

Yaknow, tournaments...

Nope. Teaming up and more importantly feeding each other kills are explicitly against the rules. Other then that, how inherently "competitive" something ends up is irrelevant to those playing it.

Little Mac had way too much survival in FFAs on release. For a character that's supposed to be very inconsistent he really wasn't... Way to put words in my mouth. The overall balance of the game is incredibly slanted to FFAs, and the lack of buffs to competent FFA characters like Zelda and Samus and the lack of nerfs to Sheik and ZSS should make that evident. Also DDD's Gordos were nerfed for reasons that can only be described as making the move less consistent. Did they really need to be less consistent in 1v1s? Didn't think so.

Ultimately, they're not going to alter a character enough to unbalance FFAs. Whereas Sakurai will gladly design brand-new characters that are super powerful or completely pathetic in 1v1s because his vision of Smash is FFAs. For example, Charizard's throw buffs. Dthrow is complete trash in FFAs even post-patch because it takes a year to finish, and Uthrow is only mildly usable in FFAs because it's easily interrupted. (Mind that platforms are banned in for Glory.)

This is a false statement. Even if it were a true one, how could you even possibly make this presumption.



Im pretty sure FFA is this way with or without items.



Because flat, platform-less stages are balanced. Apparently.

Also, you suggesting For Glory is a balanced ruleset at all is an issue in itself.



Samus remains bad in both FFA and 1v1. How do you explain her?



Also a false statement, none of the heavies have ever been bad in FFA or team settings in this game. None of Ike's most abusable attacks for FFA have gotten any significant buffs at all. In fact, nearly all of his buffs are only really beneficial to him in a 1v1 setting.

Just dropping in to poke even more holes in this argument, but who's counting, right.

FFAs with items and FFAs without items are completely different.

Tell me, what's wrong with for Glory's FFA ruleset? Heck, there's nothing inherently wrong in the 1v1 ruleset for what it is.

Samus isn't bad in FFAs at all. You have consistent characters, such as Pit or Mario who can deal with any situation but also don't excel in any situation. Then you have the inconsistent characters like Lucario or Little Mac who do extremely well in some situations but terribly in others. Samus is the later due to the nature of her Charge Shot. For example, if she's fighting Mario, Fox and Pit she's going to do terribly because of both the reflectors and how strong each of them are in CQC. But then if she's up against Dorf, Bowser and DK she can both fire her Charge Shots with impunity and works at keeping others out.

About Ike...

^Ike's Dash Attack got some pretty darn significant buffs, and that attack would be fairly important in a FFA. Its his one usable group clearing attack.

I'd also argue that fixing his jab combo so it actually, uh, combos counts as a FFA buff as well. And reducing the landing lag on his aerials so the other players have less time to punish him for using one.

Yeah, and the Uair buff means it's much easier to catch opponents, and then the Counter buff means a heck of a lot more in FFAs then it does in 1v1.

Ike was way overnerfed from Brawl because of FFAs, and was subsequently buffed because of FFAs.

 

[Ffamran]

So watching Keitaro at Xanadu, I realized I can't remember the last time we talked about Falco in here.

So guys, how is Falco doing these days?

Didn't answer this, but Keitaro managed to take Smash 4-ever #28 against Mr. E. He didn't fight Avalon, Ribs, or Raptor, so Mario, Ness, and Lucas, or False since he didn't participate and Mr. E SD'd several times in grand finals and I think winners finals, so make of that as you will. Challonge: http://challonge.com/s4e28.

Eshura, a Falco and Pit player, almost took Roll Tier 6 and took out JJRockets in winners quarters: http://smashboards.com/threads/happy-feet-falco-video-thread.376351/page-12#post-20482517. I don't know if Roll Tier 6 is a regional or not... Gamegenie?

Also, apparently FOW decided to pick up Falco for Rosalina according to the commentator. Why? I have no idea, but dude's been making use of wall jump B-reverse lasers which I don't think any other Falco players do. In general, I don't see/notice a lot of wall jump usage outside of Falco players and outside of recovery reasons like Little Mac using wall jumps to recover.

 

[meleebrawler]

Didn't answer this, but Keitaro managed to take Smash 4-ever #28 against Mr. E. He didn't fight Avalon, Ribs, or Raptor, so Mario, Ness, and Lucas, or False since he didn't participate and Mr. E SD'd several times in grand finals and I think winners finals, so make of that as you will. Challonge: http://challonge.com/s4e28.

Eshura, a Falco and Pit player, almost took Roll Tier 6 and took out JJRockets in winners quarters: http://smashboards.com/threads/happy-feet-falco-video-thread.376351/page-12#post-20482517. I don't know if Roll Tier 6 is a regional or not... Gamegenie?

Also, apparently FOW decided to pick up Falco for Rosalina according to the commentator. Why? I have no idea, but dude's been making use of wall jump B-reverse lasers which I don't think any other Falco players do. In general, I don't see/notice a lot of wall jump usage outside of Falco players and outside of recovery reasons like Little Mac using wall jumps to recover.

Probably because there aren't many walls, and the walls that do exist only really serve for ledge play outside of recovery, and ledge play is considerably worse in this game overall.

 

[Zelder]

Potential tech for dodging Ryu's kill confirm upjab combos is dropped in this thread, and here we are talking about the balance of FFA mode. God, I love this thread.

 

[meleebrawler]

Propose that we ignore LancerStaff whenever the word FFA comes out of his mouth from now on.

 

[LancerStaff]

Propose that we ignore LancerStaff whenever the word FFA comes out of his mouth from now on.

Excuse me? How is the way the game is balanced not relevant discussion? When people insist on saying that they should just ruin FFAs for 1v1s should I not point out how many people would be upset with that decision? Smash is primarily a FFA focused game and we're the deviants here, not everybody else.

 

[Zelder]

It's because trying to discern the thrown chicken bones that Sakurai and team looked at when balancing this game is both unknowable, and kind of uninteresting. It's the same category of discussion as buffs and nerfs: we have no control over whether they happen, so what is gained from talking about them?

About the Ryu thing: if this works out like it did in this video, I'm wholly in favor of this. It makes Ryu work a bit harder to get his absurdly violent kills, and that's a good thing. It doesn't affect the fact that a shoryuken is going to take you to your maker at 70%, or that two hits from Ryu is essentially 70% damage right there, but at least now it might a little longer before he shuts down your whole nervous system with a shoryuken.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Excuse me? How is the way the game is balanced not relevant discussion? When pekople insist on saying that they should just ruin FFAs for 1v1s should I not point out how many people would be upset with that decision? Smash is primarily a FFA focused game and we're the deviants here, not everybody else.

I thought we went over this countless times now and you agreed to stop preaching your nonsense?
Sakurai has factually NEVER said the game is primarily balanced in FFA. He has said it is "A" consideration in balance and not the "primary" balance. Samus is the only character that received significant buffs last patch, and I assure you they were not because of her FFA "dominance".
We can agree to disagree, but you can't say things that are factually wrong, make up your own facts and not expect people to jump all over you. It's baiting, you're just trying to get a reaction out of people, people are tired of it.
There are several well established game modes and people who play 1v1 are not "deviants".

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

Captain Falcon sucks.

HOLD ON, bear with me.

This character is not what everyone thought he was at release. Good lord, his falling uair is garbage. I am sorry, I know people think it's amazing or whatever, but even Marth's is better and Marth's isn't amazing. His jab that is so praised is very mediocre. It doesn't have great range, it has bad endlag...

He has no combos. I mean, how long did it take for people to learn to DI away? He gets nothing off of grabs. I will admit his grab is good. His dash attack is okay. His bair is good. And that's about all this character has. His advantage state that people go on about? He's a pretty good edge guarder. But he ain't gonna be stringing any moves together, keeping people from landing, that's what makes an advantage state good. He doesn't have kill confirms, his smash attacks are lame. Sure, he can hold fsmash and occasionally someone will run into it, but let's be totally honest, those players suck.

Now that I've finished with his positives, time for the negatives.

He's huge. He has a grand total of two decent approaches, both of which are totally mitigated by his size. I would say a little over half the cast has a not crap midrange game, a decent keep away game, and that's all it takes to beat Captain Falcon. That's all. He can't land, he gets comboed to hell and back because of his size and fall speed, he has an awful recovery.

Can we talk about this for a minute? Bad recoveries. This is the same thing I argue with Ness players about all the time. You can't stay uber relevant with a bad recovery. Maybe somewhat relevant, but certainly not high tier. You just can't. People are getting better and better at edge guarding. Can you believe when you go back and watch videos from Apex, people would sit there and just WATCH as Luigi or Falcon or Ness recovered? What the hell. I'm so glad that much has changed about the game. But it also means Captain Falcon is instantly less relevant.

There was a time when Falcon would do well in tournaments. My opinion? He was sweeping the termites off the floor. Bad players lose to Falcon all the time. Bad players do pretty well with Falcon all the time. So why on earth do people let the occasional Falcon main do so well at all? Because they suck. Good players don't lose to Falcon. All it takes is half a brain. This character is doing NOTHING right now against the top in the game. So why do people just blindly go along with this high tier thing?

Because he's easy to use. But Falcon has no potential, no room to grow, no room to go up.

 

[adom4]

Captain Falcon sucks.

HOLD ON, bear with me.

This character is not what everyone thought he was at release. Good lord, his falling uair is garbage. I am sorry, I know people think it's amazing or whatever, but even Marth's is better and Marth's isn't amazing. His jab that is so praised is very mediocre. It doesn't have great range, it has bad endlag...

He has no combos. I mean, how long did it take for people to learn to DI away? He gets nothing off of grabs. I will admit his grab is good. His dash attack is okay. His bair is good. And that's about all this character has. His advantage state that people go on about? He's a pretty good edge guarder. But he ain't gonna be stringing any moves together, keeping people from landing, that's what makes an advantage state good. He doesn't have kill confirms, his smash attacks are lame. Sure, he can hold fsmash and occasionally someone will run into it, but let's be totally honest, those players suck.

Now that I've finished with his positives, time for the negatives.

He's huge. He has a grand total of two decent approaches, both of which are totally mitigated by his size. I would say a little over half the cast has a not crap midrange game, a decent keep away game, and that's all it takes to beat Captain Falcon. That's all. He can't land, he gets comboed to hell and back because of his size and fall speed, he has an awful recovery.

Can we talk about this for a minute? Bad recoveries. This is the same thing I argue with Ness players about all the time. You can't stay uber relevant with a bad recovery. Maybe somewhat relevant, but certainly not high tier. You just can't. People are getting better and better at edge guarding. Can you believe when you go back and watch videos from Apex, people would sit there and just WATCH as Luigi or Falcon or Ness recovered? What the hell. I'm so glad that much has changed about the game. But it also means Captain Falcon is instantly less relevant.

There was a time when Falcon would do well in tournaments. My opinion? He was sweeping the termites off the floor. Bad players lose to Falcon all the time. Bad players do pretty well with Falcon all the time. So why on earth do people let the occasional Falcon main do so well at all? Because they suck. Good players don't lose to Falcon. All it takes is half a brain. This character is doing NOTHING right now against the top in the game. So why do people just blindly go along with this high tier thing?

Because he's easy to use. But Falcon has no potential, no room to grow, no room to go up.

You lost me when you said his jab his mediocre.

 

[Blobface]

hmm, how consistent is that SDI against Ryu? Ryu's D-tilt and U-tilt confirms are a big deal.

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

You lost me when you said his jab his mediocre.

Okay, I was exaggerating that. But it isn't the best jab in the game by ANY means.

All have much better jabs
And arguably

For jab to grab.

 

[Antonykun]

Okay, I was exaggerating that. But it isn't the best jab in the game by ANY means.

All have much better jabs
And arguably

For jab to grab.

/i lost it when you said pikachu has a better jab than falcon

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

Alright, let me say something here. This kind of shutting a person's entire argument down because of one sentence is the most disappointing aspect of this thread and it happens ALL the time.

My post happened to be lengthy and gave many other reasons of which you all choose to disregard because of one sentence. So please, if you think Falcon's jab is good, tell me why instead of aiming for cheap humor to get some likes.

All of the above jabs serve their purpose of being an anti grab mechanism better than Falcon's, or they are extremely fast, have some other quality that sets them apart (Zelda's is anti approach and disjointed, DK's combos into itself and other moves, for instance).

 

[Nu~]

Lol @ zelda's frame 11 jab being better than falcon's

May be disjointed, but it doesn't stop approaches. It's unsafe on shield and has subpar range

 

[adom4]

Alright, let me say something here. This kind of shutting a person's entire argument down because of one sentence is the most disappointing aspect of this thread and it happens ALL the time.

My post happened to be lengthy and gave many other reasons of which you all choose to disregard because of one sentence. So please, if you think Falcon's jab is good, tell me why instead of aiming for cheap humor to get some likes.

All of the above jabs serve their purpose of being an anti grab mechanism better than Falcon's, or they are extremely fast, have some other quality that sets them apart (Zelda's is anti approach and disjointed, DK's combos into itself and other moves, for instance).

Frame 3, great rapid jab, gentleman is great too, beats ****ing everything, sets up for grabs with 1-2-grab, Falcon can cover the ledge just by holding jab, Falcon's jab is the best in the game (Rosa is arguable but Falcon is probably still a bit better).

 

[LancerStaff]

It's because trying to discern the thrown chicken bones that Sakurai and team looked at when balancing this game is both unknowable, and kind of uninteresting. It's the same category of discussion as buffs and nerfs: we have no control over whether they happen, so what is gained from talking about them?

It's less about serious discussion and more about answering why Bowser sucks and ZSS gets to be a top tier. A very common question, really...

I thought we went over this countless times now and you agreed to stop preaching your nonsense?
Sakurai has factually NEVER said the game is primarily balanced in FFA. He has said it is "A" consideration in balance and not the "primary" balance. Samus is the only character that received significant buffs last patch, and I assure you they were not because of her FFA "dominance".
We can agree to disagree, but you can't say things that are factually wrong, make up your own facts and not expect people to jump all over you. It's baiting, you're just trying to get a reaction out of people, people are tired of it.
There are several well established game modes and people who play 1v1 are not "deviants".

Never agreed to anything. Now, I'm willing to respect you if you choose to discuss things nicely...

Never said it wasn't the main focus. If it wasn't Sheik would be dirt at the very least, but she isn't. And Sakurai wouldn't ever say it is... It's like asking somebody if they killed someone else. You're always going to get a "no."

1v1s are clearly suffering (relatively speaking) because they don't want to make Sheik useless in FFAs. Not a single person has given me a good alternative to why they haven't brought her or any other top tier down significantly besides Greninja (who was ridiculous in FFAs, don't deny it) or arguably Luigi, who was a braindeadedness nerf then trying to hurt the character and got other things in return.

There you are putting words in my mouth again... Never said she was like top ten. She's not terrible in FFAs by any definition, though. Only reason you can say she was the most buffed last patch was because nobody else was straight buffed outside of customs. I had said before that Samus getting buffs wasn't impossible, remember?

1v1 players are most certainly the deviants, the irregulars, the outsiders. Wasn't until this game were we actually considered, and only barely.

Alright, let me say something here. This kind of shutting a person's entire argument down because of one sentence is the most disappointing aspect of this thread and it happens ALL the time.

My post happened to be lengthy and gave many other reasons of which you all choose to disregard because of one sentence. So please, if you think Falcon's jab is good, tell me why instead of aiming for cheap humor to get some likes.

All of the above jabs serve their purpose of being an anti grab mechanism better than Falcon's, or they are extremely fast, have some other quality that sets them apart (Zelda's is anti approach and disjointed, DK's combos into itself and other moves, for instance).

Falcon doesn't need buffs. Even from a strictly 1v1 standpoint he's both one of the stronger characters and isn't particularly hard to use. Like Thinkaman said... If you're above the middle you should be praying every night that your character won't get nerfed to where most characters are next patch. Falcon nerfs wouldn't be unjustified, but buffs would.

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

Frame 3, great rapid jab, gentleman is great too, beats ****ing everything, sets up for grabs with 1-2-grab, Falcon can cover the ledge just by holding jab, Falcon's jab is the best in the game (Rosa is arguable but Falcon's is probably still a bit better).

I fail to see how any of those things are things that other jabs, specifically frame two jabs (or the frame one jab ) can't do. His rapid jab is trash and everyone knows it. His jab will outright lose to many others.

His jab is absolutely not the best in the game. Rosa's jab literally shuts down half of the characters' neutrals in this whole game. Frame 2 jabs will straight up beat Falcon's, serve their purpose just as well except they are faster, and some have much better range and are totally spammable .

And I'm pretty sure that shielding Zelda's jab gives you like a 2 frame punish window. I'll take my chances.

 

[Nu~]

Alright, let me say something here. This kind of shutting a person's entire argument down because of one sentence is the most disappointing aspect of this thread and it happens ALL the time.

My post happened to be lengthy and gave many other reasons of which you all choose to disregard because of one sentence. So please, if you think Falcon's jab is good, tell me why instead of aiming for cheap humor to get some likes.

All of the above jabs serve their purpose of being an anti grab mechanism better than Falcon's, or they are extremely fast, have some other quality that sets them apart (Zelda's is anti approach and disjointed, DK's combos into itself and other moves, for instance).

It's hard to take your post seriously, so naturally the responses will be silly. Why should it matter that your post is long if it isn't worth it's weight in salt?

Your reasons are awful.

Falcon's jab is disjointed as hell and beats out most moves. Please tell me what moves easily beat it.

And falcon has no combos? What kind of lie is this?
Dthrow -> nair -> uair
Dthrow -> uair -> uair
Dthrow -> knee is guaranteed at some percentages @Trifroze knows this I'm sure
Falling uair -> knee
Bair -> dash grab Dthrow
Uair chains in the air at certain percentages no matter how well you DI

He may not have many kill confirms, but he has plenty of 50/50s to help him out.

It is also incredibly insensitive to falcon mains to say that their character only wins by player incompetence.


Yes he had a bad disadvantage state and horrid recovery, but his nuetral + godlike advantage state keep him relevant.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Something interesting that was posted in the Ike skype chat recently:

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/669448127926149120

Supposedly, Quarter Circle DI works well against Ryu's strings due to high hitlag + multiple hits + how Ryu needs to position himself? I mean, those are all looking like BnB combos that normally hit and well, aren't. If that is the case, it could look as if it could be pretty important to know how to do that consistently against Ryu, particularly since it seems to be a way to get away from the lethal part of Up B. And well, if Ike can move out of the way enough, I'd imagine characters like Pikachu would have a pretty darn easy time.

That's like brawl level of SDI, even though it's DI. The hell. It almost looks like one of those old TAS vids that versat always pumped out before the Fox/Falco one on FD became the default one all the newgens loved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHGxBYwH4XE

Okay, I was exaggerating that. But it isn't the best jab in the game by ANY means.

All have much better jabs

Hehe
Yoshi jab better than Falcon.

 

[Amadeus9]

I don't smoke, but I think I need a cigarette after reading that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't smoke, but I think I need a cigarette after reading that.

I'll even buy you a beer.

As a response to this whole "Falcon sucks" thing (huh...)

Falcon's approach options don't have to be amazing when the character can wall with Bair, Jab, and Dashgrab incredibly effectively alongside his not horrible approach options. Outside of his bevy of REAL COMBOS (because yes, they do work, he has the speed to follow any DI and if anyone denies this you're legitimately insane), he has 50/50s as stated above, can edgeguard good, blahblah.

His obvious faults lie in his disadvantage state and some problems with shorter characters but I hardly consider that damning enough to say he's really that bad. Oh his recovery is kinda bad too, should mention that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's like brawl level of SDI, even though it's DI. The hell. It almost looks like one of those old TAS vids that versat always pumped out before the Fox/Falco one on FD became the default one all the newgens loved.

I don't know, I don't have anybody in my area that even touches Ryu, I can't really try it first hand.

It would also depend on how hitlag effects DI I would think. Like if its high hitlag = more impact from this kind of DI, it might not be as difficult as it appears. And of course, smaller characters = less distance needed to travel to get out.

 

[Jehtt]

Something interesting that was posted in the Ike skype chat recently:

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/669448127926149120

Supposedly, Quarter Circle DI works well against Ryu's strings due to high hitlag + multiple hits + how Ryu needs to position himself? I mean, those are all looking like BnB combos that normally hit and well, aren't. If that is the case, it could look as if it could be pretty important to know how to do that consistently against Ryu, particularly since it seems to be a way to get away from the lethal part of Up B. And well, if Ike can move out of the way enough, I'd imagine characters like Pikachu would have a pretty darn easy time.

I am curious about this. So, he's doing Smash DI with the control stick? I wonder how relevant fall speed is to doing this. Ike has a pretty quick fall speed (14th), so anyone below that would for certain be able to escape.
In the video, I never did see him escape a single d-tilt, just a double one. Even if the single one to Shoryu was still inescapable, it would be huge because D-tilt can't trap landings nearly as well as U-tilt.

 

[Locke 06]

My understanding is that you cannot DI moves that don't send you into tumble, so please keep the discussion to SDI.

Carry on.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I am curious about this. So, he's doing Smash DI with the control stick? I wonder how relevant fall speed is to doing this. Ike has a pretty quick fall speed (14th), so anyone below that would for certain be able to escape.
In the video, I never did see him escape a single d-tilt, just a double one. Even if the single one to Shoryu was still inescapable, it would be huge because D-tilt can't trap landings nearly as well as U-tilt.

From what we said in the skype chat, it was Quarter Circle DI: choose the angle you want to escape, mash a quarter circle motion with that direction at the centre pretty much.

And ya, it does seem like most of the time you need multiple non-killing attacks to hit before the lethal one to pop out of the way.

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

I mistakenly assumed that you all were familiar with the word "mediocre". Means nothing special. So far nobody has given me one distinguishing quality of Falcon's jab that other jabs can't do.

Frame 3, great rapid jab, gentleman is great too, beats ****ing everything, sets up for grabs with 1-2-grab, Falcon can cover the ledge just by holding jab, Falcon's jab is the best in the game (Rosa is arguable but Falcon is probably still a bit better).

This post. Frame 3 is really your reason? Beating everything is your reason? Yes, frame 3 moves tend to beat most everything. There isn't any other reason that his jab is beating "everything" except the frame data. No nonexistent imaginary priority, no, it's the frame data. You know who else has frame 1-3 jabs? A lot of characters. I don't mean a few, I mean I actually think over half the cast does. So how would frame 3 possibly distinguish it from the "nothing special" category?

Your other reasons, "great rapid jab," and, "gentleman is great too," Smh those aren't reasons. Please explain what distinguishes them from all the others. It can't be the damage. 9 damage? Aren't there like, a lot that do that much? Ryu's does 10 off the top of my head, and I think it's frame 2. It doesn't kill until 180 at the edge. So it can't be that either.

It sets up for grabs with 1-2-grab only in that catching someone shielding too long leads to grab. Just like, almost every other multi hit jab... It doesn't combo on hit into grabs like some characters. Holding it at the ledge is still not a distinguishing feature.

I'm not making this stuff up. Nobody has given any distinguishing features, so I have to ask if any of you all know what you are talking about or if you are just blindly accepting the, "Falcon's jab is the best in the game," BS when it clearly isn't? Everyone who has posted on the subject has totally dodged the question, or otherwise just can't think of any real reasons, which might be the source of this frustration.

Someone give me one legitimate reason why his jab would ever be considered better than:

I trimmed down the last as much as I could because to be the "best jab in the game" it has to be better than those three. But it should be easy for you all since there seems to be such a consensus on the matter.

 

[adom4]

I mistakenly assumed that you all were familiar with the word "mediocre". Means nothing special. So far nobody has given me one distinguishing quality of Falcon's jab that other jabs can't do.

This post. Frame 3 is really your reason? Beating everything is your reason? Yes, frame 3 moves tend to beat most everything. There isn't any other reason that his jab is beating "everything" except the frame data. No nonexistent imaginary priority, no, it's the frame data. You know who else has frame 1-3 jabs? A lot of characters. I don't mean a few, I mean I actually think over half the cast does. So how would frame 3 possibly distinguish it from the "nothing special" category?

Your other reasons, "great rapid jab," and, "gentleman is great too," Smh those aren't reasons. Please explain what distinguishes them from all the others. It can't be the damage. 9 damage? Aren't there like, a lot that do that much? Ryu's does 10 off the top of my head, and I think it's frame 2. It doesn't kill until 180 at the edge. So it can't be that either.

It sets up for grabs with 1-2-grab only in that catching someone shielding too long leads to grab. Just like, almost every other multi hit jab... It doesn't combo on hit into grabs like some characters. Holding it at the ledge is still not a distinguishing feature.

I'm not making this stuff up. Nobody has given any distinguishing features, so I have to ask if any of you all know what you are talking about or if you are just blindly accepting the, "Falcon's jab is the best in the game," BS when it clearly isn't? Everyone who has posted on the subject has totally dodged the question, or otherwise just can't think of any real reasons, which might be the source of this frustration.

Someone give me one legitimate reason why his jab would ever be considered better than:

I trimmed down the last as much as I could because to be the "best jab in the game" it has to be better than those three. But it should be easy for you all since there seems to be such a consensus on the matter.

Alright:
it's an amazing jab but it's not as good without Luma.
again amazing jab but it isn't disjointed like Falcon's is.
nowhere near as strong & as much range, lack of a rapid jab.

 

[Ffamran]

Probably because there aren't many walls, and the walls that do exist only really serve for ledge play outside of recovery, and ledge play is considerably worse in this game overall.

You can still wall jump using the slope of Final Destination, Smashville, Battlefield, etc. I at least expect wall jump Bairs from characters like Dr. Mario, Captain Falcon, and even Sheik for mixups. Y'know, I don't remember seeing wall jump Dairs from Captain Falcon and wasn't there a study on how wall jumps can get you out of ledge trumps or something? Most ledge options I see are from the usual Samus does an Uair or a Fair to cover her getup while other wall jumpers don't do much. Falco? I've seen wall jumps used for Dair positioning, have Fair and Nair hit towards the blast zone instead of having to drop down or jump off the stage, B-reverse Blaster, the day-one wall jump Falco Phantasm/Fox Illusion, and wall jump Bair to punish. I don't know, maybe it's just seeing Falco players use wall jumps a lot that I wonder why other players of different characters don't.

 

[ligersandtigons]

From what we said in the skype chat, it was Quarter Circle DI: choose the angle you want to escape, mash a quarter circle motion with that direction at the centre pretty much.

And ya, it does seem like most of the time you need multiple non-killing attacks to hit before the lethal one to pop out of the way.

According to My Smash Corner, that's considered SDI as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIdyVK1aDtg

(around 3:15)