Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[meleebrawler]

Greninja is a mid-range fighter so he should be in the Swordfighter category.

That and, you know, he literally uses swords for some of his moves.

Mm, it's just that one of the traits of a brawler is closing in to score big hits or, in Greninja's case, combos, a trait that in my eyes outweighs his spacing game in importance. Again, though, characters aren't necessarily exclusive to one category.

 

[Peppermint1201]

If swordfighters are mid-range characters then Mega Man is a swordfighter. He even uses a sword in one of his moves so that's good enough right guys??

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja also loves to fire uncharged shurrikens to harass his opponents, and shut down approaches, similar to gunners.

So is he gunner now? Lol I can't really tell.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's really more like this. Aside from certain anomalies, every character is designed to be good at two out of three ranges: close, mid, and long.

 

[Rizen]

I'd categorize the characters I play styles like this:

Link: Zoning, frame trapper, powerhouse.
He constantly needs to zone and manipulate the opponent with projectiles to chain into his strong moves. He doesn't have great combos but decent frame traps and good damage on hit.

Zelda: (weak) combo/all rounder
She can start combos once she gets in from Dthrow, Dtilt, Nair, jab, Dair and she has tools to fight from long and short range. They aren't very good though.

Ganon: Punisher, powerhouse
He thrives on reads and punishes. He also has bad combo potential but only needs a few solid hits to land the KO.

G&W: combo, mobility master
G&W combos. I use the term mobility master rather than zoning because his spacing and game are based heavily on his great mobility. He feels more like a character who moves around than a traditional zoner.

Bowser/Charizard: Grappler, punisher, zoner
Good throw/grab game, strong punishes, needs to zone opponents who are faster and because they're large and get comboed.

Ike: zoning, grappler
He's a powerhouse and comboer in ways but he plays much more like a zoning character to me.

 

[Nu~]

Ike: zoning
He's a powerhouse and comboer in ways but he plays much more like a zoning character to me.

With the way Ryo plays him, he seems more like a grappler/punisher/powerhouse.

 

[Rizen]

With the way Ryo plays him, he seems more like a grappler/punisher/powerhouse.

I'm just learning Ike so I'm probably wrong about him.

 

[Y2Kay]

We do have 3 archetypes in smash 4, that I do agree with.

First we have rush down. These are typically fast characters that love to get in and combo you hard and rack up damage. They generally excel at close range. A great example is . He does best when he's all in your face, comboing in to the ground.

Next, we have the typical "swordies". These characters usually have average speed, but make up for it with exceptional range on their attacks. Their game plan usually revolve around spacing out their opponents to keep them at an optimal reach. Not too far, but not too close. A good example is . His whole entire game plan is to use attacks to deny you getting in on him, and keeping you at a certain distance to maximize damage output.

Lastly, we have zoners. They are typically the slowest of the bunch, but make up for it with the greatest of reach in the form of projectiles. They use them to shut down approaches and movement options. Limiting your options is a common theme amongst them. No better example is of course! Stage control with tree, and projectiles in slingshot / lloid rocket.

There are many variants of this of course. There are very few "pure" zoners or "true" rush down characters. For example:

- he's got a big, some what disjointed tail, and often uses it to space out foes. Basic swordie, right? Not really. His game plan revolves around charging and using one of the strongest projectiles in the game. Does this make him a zoner, now? He's a hybrid (not Eco-friendly tho)

- he excels at mid range with a disjointed aerial and smash attacks. He sounds like a swordie, but he also has a plethora of combos like a Rushdown character. But those rush down characters don't usually depend on, say, camping out opponents with water shurrikens to force an approach. Cuz that's what zoners do, right? He's got aspects from all three fused into one (awesome) character.

&- they have spacing abilities and range like a swordsman, but with moves like dash attack and dash grab, and with great throw combos, they also have rush down capabilities.

- Sheik definitely has the best rush down ability in the game, with great speed, and combos of all kinds. But, she also has one of the best projectiles in the game in the form of needles. If she wants / needs to, she can play lame and camp w/ needles, shutting down approach options and limiting movement like a zoner.

There's more, but hopefully you get the point by now.

They also does seem to have Rock Paper Scissors phenomenon between them. Rush down characters use their superior mobility to get past projectiles and Walls and dish out pain on zoners. Zoners like to ignore a swordsman'a game plan and attack outside his range. Swordsmen like to deny rush down characters the ability to get in on them with sweeping disjoints.

 

[Mario766]

Ike's a mixed bag.

His Jab is downright amazing after the patches. 11 damage, kills with rage, and has one of it not the best range of a jab in the game, especially jab 2. I swear Ike's foot is disjointed because I beat EVERYTHING with that freaking move. Jab 1 got gutted though, +7 recovery, but now that Ike gets actual follow-ups into jab 3 it doesn't matter as much. Jab 1 and jab 2 are now safe on shield due to the shield stun changes. This gives him actual boxing because he has a real option to throw out in neutral.

He's a typical zoner outside of this, his aerials have low landing lag after the patches and have high shield stun so he can keep people out with his aerials and his tilts + jabs. This makes MUs like Mario/Luigi much more viable because he can keep them out with strong hitboxes and not have to pray they flub to keep them out.

Then he has his absolutely outstanding throw game. 20+ damage reward on grabs, upwards to 60+ if conditions are met that are consistent upwards to 120 percent depending on the MU, and can lead into guaranteed kills depending on rage + the MU. Little rage Ike has somewhat consistent up throw up-air kill confirms depending on opponent faced which can kill about 70-80s but require a very precise dash start into rising up-air finish, so it's tricky to do in games.

His main flaw, IMO, is that he doesn't have very many ways to mix-up things into grabs. His standing grab is hot garbage. That range is less than his hand. We Ganon now. His dash grab isn't amazing either, but his pivot grab teleports, I swear. We Marth now. Ike would be super scary if Jab 1 had it's old 17 FAF, but that'd be crrrrrrrraaaaazy.

 

[Fatmanonice]

If we were to make a Venn Diagram based on these proposed main characteristics...

Pure Brawler:
Pure Gunner:
Pure Swordsman:
Brawler/Gunner:
Swordsman/Brawler:
Gunner/Swordsman:

Brawler: primarily hand to hand combat, not a lot of projectiles
Gunner: lot of projectiles, lot of disjointed hitboxes, playstyle tends to revolve around projectiles and using them properly
Swordsman: primarily a sword, usually don't have a projectile
Brawler/Gunner: primarily hand to hand combat but projectiles and/or reflectors are a very big part of their gameplay
Brawler/swordsman: lots of disjointed hitboxes with a lot of physical attacks thrown in and maybe a projectile
Gunner/swordsman: tend to be very projectile reliant and typically fight with a disjointed weapon

 

[Trifroze]

Hate to pick on individual choices out of a comprehensive list, but ZSS should definitely be swordsman/brawler. Nair, zair, dsmash and grab are all often used disjoints and she practically has no long range game, even paralyzer is a mid range projectile.

Lucario is gunner/brawler, aura sphere and force palm (projectile) are some of his most useful options. Could probably throw Yoshi up in there as well if Mario gets a pass. Ness and Samus are also both definitely brawlers as much as they're gunners, since they have great normals for (aerial) CQC.

 

[TriTails]

I think Luigi could be Brawler/Gunner because we all know what Fireballs mean to Luigi. He also outboxes basically anyone but Little Mac in this game.

Also I thiiiink Dark Pit goes to Brawler/Swordsman? Silver Bow is much less effective in neutral compared to Pit's, so he fights more in CQC overall.

Also, what is Cloud doing there? Aside from that, great list.

 

[Mario766]

Yoshi's definitely Gunner/Brawler. Eggs is one of if not the most important part of playing a strong Yoshi.

 

[Routa]

Pure Swordsman:

Swordfighter is more of a Sworsman/Brawler than pure Swordsman.

He is kinda mixture of Mario, Link and Pit. Sounds odd, eh?

I had some explanation why he/she/it is a mixture of thous characters, but... maintenance... And I also have poor memory so I forgot most of my reasons.

 

[bc1910]

I think almost every character fits into two or more categories. To the point where categorising the cast through brawler/gunner/swordfighter kinda becomes moot.

Greninja has elements of all 3. In fact I would argue his gunner side is the most important. But anyway, he has the high up close reward of a brawler, the projectiles and strong zoning of a gunner and the, y'know, sword attacks of a swordfighter (plus disjointed sword-like moves like Ftilt and Bair). His versatility in this regard is what gives him good MUs against almost the entire cast. His brawler and swordfighter elements are weaker as his frame data on those moves isn't great, hence his losing only to fast brawlers who can bypass his zoning and beat him up close (Sheik, Fox, Sonic). This is also why Sheik is by far his worst MU, as he can still somewhat zone the other two (plus Sonic doesn't really win up close, just kinda repeatedly zone breaks) but needles render shurikens irrelevant. Being strict I would say he's least like a brawler out of all 3, and is primarily a gunner.

Sheik could also fit in all 3 categories because of needles, her CQC and her sword-like Fair. I'd argue her Fair makes her a better swordswoman than most of the sword characters in this game.

Ike is a swordsman with some brawler elements. He not a gunner really (zones at mid range with his spacing but he's not going to win a match against anyone with projectiles if he doesn't approach) and I'd be okay with keeping him in the pure swordsman category but brawler/sword fits as well.

I'd say both Pits are gunners and swordfighters. Their projectile and reflector ensures they're both gunners, including Dark Pit, and they attack with swords (hurr). They also have a brawler element with their grab games. Again, can't really be categorised as one.

 

[Mario766]

Ike doesn't have the frame data to be in the brawler type, even as a sub type. He'd much rather be in sword range than CQC.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I know I'm late for posting this, but r/smashbros had released another monthly tier list!

The placements shown go as follows:

S

A+

A

A-

B+

B

B-

C+

C

C-



My thoughts: I really wish they didn't get rid of the D tier as I believe at least Jiggs and Zelda should go down there. But here are the rest of my thoughts in bullet-point form.

• MK should be higher than pretty much every character in the A- tier.
• Greninja is too low. Should at least be at the bottom of B+ or top of B.
• Little Mac and Falco are a bit too high. Shulk is also too high. All should go in C tier (Falco in C+)
• Several people in recent days have told me and themselves that Mario should switch places with Pika. While I do agree Pika should be a bit lower, I similarly do not see Mario being in the Top 4. I'll just ignore their placements and move on.
• Pit and Dark Pit should be right next to each other (Pit being one place higher).
• Roy is still overhyped (at least this time he is where he deserves to be: below Ike).
• Lucas is still overhyped.
• Falcon is overrated. I don't really see him being A tier anymore when he has horrendous MUs against at least 3 of the top/high tiers (Sheik, Ryu, and Pikachu), though I suppose Fatality's 5th place finish at FPS is convincing enough to at least put him at the top of B+ or bottom of A-.
• Mewtwo is way too low. It's clear that no one really focuses on his advantages that much. No way is he worse than someone like Jiggs or Ganon.
• Sonic may or may not be slightly too low. True, Komikiri has been getting good results with the character, though I don't recall too many in America, and I'm pretty sure people are getting adjusted to fighting him.
• Olimar is a tad too low as well. May be appropriately placed in regards to results, but still.
• Overall this list is certainly better than the last list, but I still think there could be things fine-tuned.

 

[Yikarur]

Pikachu has no justification to be Top5. I hope people will drop that soon.
I'm curious if the "Ryu trend" will keep on. I think Ryu has much potential but I'm also thinking that people are not aware how to play the Ryu Match-up yet and are overwhelmed if they suddenly face a good Ryu.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Pikachu has no justification to be Top5. I hope people will drop that soon.

What if I still thought he was? I don't see a problem with that.

I'm curious if the "Ryu trend" will keep on. I think Ryu has much potential but I'm also thinking that people are not aware how to play the Ryu Match-up yet and are overwhelmed if they suddenly face a good Ryu.

Could be that, or it could just be the fact that Ryu's close-up game is brutal, bordering on busted/broken.

 

[Yikarur]

or just both and we will see were Ryu belongs in the future
Facing a good Ryu is not something you do daily so we have to keep in mind that people are most probably not playing the match-up at it's best.

And we have only 1 Pika rep and until that changes putting Pika Top5 is not really justified. Are there any other Pikas that do at least well in their region? I haven't heard of any regional winning Pikachu.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well like I said my example is VERY rough with all the diversity in this game, as well as plenty of overlap in characters, such as Link, a swordsman who also has gunner elements.

Still, I'll give it a shot:

Brawler:


Swordfighter:


Gunners:

Wow, this is interesting. Brawler loses to swordfighter, and with Kirby, he loses to most of them, yet his best matchup at 60:40 to 65:35, King Dedede, is in there as well.

 

[UberMadman]

What I'm wondering is what justifies Game and Watch to be a B- tier character. I feel like I'm missing something, but he doesn't feel like a character that deserves to be 20 places higher than Mewtwo. Is his combo game really that good? It always felt very one-track to me, and his mixed frame data, lack of autocancelable aerials out of a short hop, low weight, and lackluster projectile always made me think of him as a bottom 10 character.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

And we have only 1 Pika rep and until that changes putting Pika Top5 is not really justified. Are there any other Pikas that do at least well in their region? I haven't heard of any regional winning Pikachu.

I know a few others who do decently in their region like Kenny and NAKAT.

 

[Mo433]

What I'm wondering is what justifies Game and Watch to be a B- tier character. I feel like I'm missing something, but he doesn't feel like a character that deserves to be 20 places higher than Mewtwo. Is his combo game really that good? It always felt very one-track to me, and his mixed frame data, lack of autocancelable aerials out of a short hop, low weight, and lackluster projectile always made me think of him as a bottom 10 character.

G&W has a amazing recovery, great combos, decent mobility, and tons of moves that are waaaay safer on shield due to the patch. He's nowhere close to bottom 10.

 

[bc1910]

Gdubs is decent enough. A solid mid tier, if his Hoo Hah was more reliable he'd be higher. He's one of the better characters of that large "solid" group.

That list isn't awful, but it's just more evidence that r/smashbros lets the opinions of US top players, rather than results or theory, dictate its own opinions.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Gdubs is decent enough. A solid mid tier, if his Hoo Hah was more reliable he'd be higher. He's one of the better characters of that large "solid" group.

That list isn't awful, but it's just more evidence that r/smashbros lets the opinions of US top players, rather than results or theory, dictate its own opinions.

Honestly r/smashbros is a community that is extremely results-heavy. Trust me, I speak from experience (I'm known as Skeeteryosh on Reddit BTW).

I'm a free thinker

 

[Routa]

Honestly r/smashbros is a community that is extremely results-heavy.

I once tried to argue about Ike's placing in r/smashbros.... ONCE. They also tend to prefer fast characters (note Roy).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Did you guys seriously just spend a whole page having a completely meaningless discussion about jabs because somebody who calls himself MARTH_IS_BAE said that Falcon's jab isn't good?

How much more obvious can it get, good god.

 

[bc1910]

If they were really that discerning about results, Pikachu would not be that high. Neither would Roy or Luigi. Yet you have ESAM claiming Pika is 2nd in the game and ZeRo constantly singing the praises of Roy and Luigi, despite the big Luigi nerf. It's pretty clear what "data" the masses use to form their opinions.

Anyway, let's not waste another page talking about the r/smashbros tier list, of all things.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Am I the only one who thinks Roy is kinda bad? Like, I see him named as "mid-tier at worst" like so many other characters a lot but I'm not getting it. To me he's more like low mid-tier at best.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think Luigi could be Brawler/Gunner because we all know what Fireballs mean to Luigi. He also outboxes basically anyone but Little Mac in this game.

Also I thiiiink Dark Pit goes to Brawler/Swordsman? Silver Bow is much less effective in neutral compared to Pit's, so he fights more in CQC overall.

Also, what is Cloud doing there? Aside from that, great list.

It's not exactly subtle that Cloud is most likely going to be a swordfighter.

 

[Jamurai]

I know I'm late for posting this, but r/smashbros had released another monthly tier list!

The placements shown go as follows:

S

A+

A

A-

B+

B

B-

C+

C

C-

My opinions on this iteration:

• Pikachu is too high once again, I think he is in a similar situation to Villager in that they have one amazing player repping them and doing well at big tournaments, but other than that there is almost nothing in terms of results. Pikachu and Villager both get put in top 5 regularly in American and Japanese tier lists respectively for this reason (or so I believe), when they should both be lower until others start demonstrating the characters' power.
• Most top players who have made lists agree that MK is at least pushing for top 10. He is too low.
• Other than these two things, the top tier order is pretty good, I think Sonic and Fox are a tiny bit higher but whatever.
• I think Luigi and Yoshi belong sub-top-15, it's kind of too early to call for Luigi since the big patch wasn't that long ago. Yoshi though, we don't see much from him outside locals and a few regionals. Now that ESAM seems to be spending more time on him maybe we'll get to see what he can do at tip-top level.
• I don't get Reddit's fascination with Roy. He's nowhere near top 20.
• Greninja severely underrated once again, but it's to be expected.
• Mii Brawler's position wildly fluctuates depending on custom and weight rules, but Gunner and Swordy are far too low regardless of rules. It seems they still have the 'terrible character' stigma from early this year, somehow. There's some dude in the comments trying to argue that Swordy's normals are bad.
• Small movements in low-mid tier don't really matter, no one really knows (or cares?) where exactly each character is around these levels. It's more about where the cutoff between 'viable' and 'not viable' is. I liked Dabuz's tier list format for this reason. (I'm only going to note mid-low tiers below if I think they are very wrongly placed.)

Too high:
Too low:

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is not even Top10 in that list. How is that too high? Yoshi has few good results. Not in majors, but on a national/regional scale he does pretty well.
One Yoshi almost broke into Top32 at TBH5. It's just unlikely with a character that has good players that don't travel to make a fuss at majors. Thats not the fault of the character. If you look at regional results you'll see that he is pretty much capable. I'm gettig Top8 (or 9th *cry*) at german tournaments. Slice consistently placing well at tournaments he participated in his active time or Zudenka being #1 in Switzerland powerranking, the Wall winning 128 Man tournaments. Raptor getting consistently good placings in his regions.
A lot of character don't have major representation or very little, because there are limited spots and the same players placing top regardless of character.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I know I'm late for posting this, but r/smashbros had released another monthly tier list!

The placements shown go as follows:

S

A+

A

A-

B+

B

B-

C+

C

C-



My thoughts: I really wish they didn't get rid of the D tier as I believe at least Jiggs and Zelda should go down there. But here are the rest of my thoughts in bullet-point form.

• MK should be higher than pretty much every character in the A- tier.
• Greninja is too low. Should at least be at the bottom of B+ or top of B.
• Little Mac and Falco are a bit too high. Shulk is also too high. All should go in C tier (Falco in C+)
• Several people in recent days have told me and themselves that Mario should switch places with Pika. While I do agree Pika should be a bit lower, I similarly do not see Mario being in the Top 4. I'll just ignore their placements and move on.
• Pit and Dark Pit should be right next to each other (Pit being one place higher).
• Roy is still overhyped (at least this time he is where he deserves to be: below Ike).
• Lucas is still overhyped.
• Falcon is overrated. I don't really see him being A tier anymore when he has horrendous MUs against at least 3 of the top/high tiers (Sheik, Ryu, and Pikachu), though I suppose Fatality's 5th place finish at FPS is convincing enough to at least put him at the top of B+ or bottom of A-.
• Mewtwo is way too low. It's clear that no one really focuses on his advantages that much. No way is he worse than someone like Jiggs or Ganon.
• Sonic may or may not be slightly too low. True, Komikiri has been getting good results with the character, though I don't recall too many in America, and I'm pretty sure people are getting adjusted to fighting him.
• Olimar is a tad too low as well. May be appropriately placed in regards to results, but still.
• Overall this list is certainly better than the last list, but I still think there could be things fine-tuned.

Do Miis get to use any specials? If not, Mii Brawler is too high.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I honestly don't care about results as much as other people. Though even when not taking them into consideration, Pika should be a bit lower.

Am I the only one who isn't very result-heavy?

More on that, do we even need to create a tier list? I recall Thinkaman (pretty sure it was him) saying that a MU chart would probably be better for measuring the strength of the characters while using high level matches (and a bit of personal experience depending on skill level) as a guide, and I agree fully.

 

[DanGR]

I dunno, I think Roy's got a lot of growing room, still. There's a lot of room to optimize use of neutral-b as an edgeguard and ledgeguard. The option coverage of this things is pretty sweet, actually. Neutral-b has a lot of interesting uses as a b-reversing tool in disadvantage too that I don't see used very much. And then I have to mention a very specific, underdeveloped aspect of his combo game. There was a time period of a couple weeks within which I labbed out first hit of nair-> fast fall-> second hit of nair, which can true combo into an additonal nair1-> FF nair2s at low-mid percents. The timing is super strict. I'm pretty sure you have to buffer it, but it's unavoidable, as far as I can tell.

These are just a couple things I noticed while playing the character that stand out to me as potential avenues of improvement to his advantage and disadvantage. I'm not saying he's great or anything, but his meta isn't exactly staling yet.

Skeeter Mania Tier lists don't care if you're personally results heavy or not. They are by definition based largely on results.

 

[Nobie]

/r/smashbros, like a lot of fighting game communities, is overly obsessed with combos.

If I have to see "b-but, Mewtwo's down throw doesn't combo so it's bad!!!!" one more time...

 

[Skeeter Mania]

/r/smashbros, like a lot of fighting game communities, is overly obsessed with combos.

If I have to see "b-but, Mewtwo's down throw doesn't combo so it's bad!!!!" one more time...

Even I pointed to M2 being too low.

Skeeter Mania Tier lists don't care if you're personally results heavy or not. They are by definition based largely on results.

I implore you to read this: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/928518-super-smash-bros-brawl/44991850

And if that really was the case, then why is it necessary to vote in the first place? Results are a purely objective measurement.

I recall Armada quoting nearly the same a few years ago: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/page-9#post-15474204

I once tried to argue about Ike's placing in r/smashbros.... ONCE. They also tend to prefer fast characters (note Roy).

Trust me, I've had similar arguments regarding Mario's Top 5 placement. I don't think I've met anyone here who actually agrees.

 

[Mili]

Will it help fastfaller/heavy characters? I know quite a few of them suffer a lot from Ryu's U-tilt.

Not necessarily matchup defining, but it would definitely be a plus if they could get out of it.

There are already fast-fallers who can get out of Ryu's up-tilt, a prime example being . His extremely low stance combined with Shadow Sneak gets him out of the up-tilt combo in 3 hits maximum (if done correctly) before the 60% and above range. I haven't tested it yet but I believe super-heavies like and will still struggle to get out even with proper SDI because their hurtbox size is that freaking massive (gl hf, Ridley). But, as shown by the video, heavy characters that don't have huge hurtboxes (looking at you ) will be able to get out in an easier fashion.

I'll have to lab it out a bit with some friends to see if fast-fallers such as and can get out of it. Their lanky frame, especially ZSS's, is really nice to combo out with up-tilt so I'm not sure it will work as well. is still ****ed, though.

 

[Ghostbone]

Am I the only one who thinks Roy is kinda bad? Like, I see him named as "mid-tier at worst" like so many other characters a lot but I'm not getting it. To me he's more like low mid-tier at best.

Roy's pretty decent.

D-tilt, jab, side-b, sh nair/fair and grab form a proper neutral game that can be applied vs any character.

Grab reward is fine, d-throw and f-throw combo into stuff and he gets 50/50's at higher %s. F-throw > nair > fair is a lot of damage and stage control, which works around the 30% range. D-throw > u-tilt/jab works lower than that and gives him good follow-up potential. Once the f-throw combos stop working you have stuff like d-throw > nair or uair, and if they air-dodge you can read that and get a charged f-smash which will be killing at like 50% lol.

F-tilt kills well, up-b OoS is a reasonable kill tool (and a good OoS kill option is a nice trait to have). Up-smash and F-smash are obviously stupidly strong and work as punishes or reads.
He's also pretty good at going off-stage with fair or bair (which kill early off-stage), his air speed is very very high (4th highest?) so he can actually go pretty far out and still recover despite his awful recovery.

He has terrible disadvantage since like most sword characters he doesn't have a fast aerial to challenge someone, plus he falls fast and his recovery is easy to challenge if you know its properties. But his strengths are very real so he's probably very close to the middle of the cast (25-30th-ish)