Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Trifroze]

according to the video, d-smash -> flip kick works on: (it did say it's a bit trickier for diddy though)

d-smash -> u-air -> boost kick works on everybody above and:

very interesting stuff, Trifroze ! doubt it's going to shift the zss meta in any tangible way (she doesn't exactly want for kill setups in the first place), but it's a good option to have and may open up new possibilities in neutral.

Actually for both flip jump and boost kick 0 to deaths, same characters + for the sourspot chain at higher percents, but yeah. And true, Greninja technically avoids this, but is still put into a pretty bad spot.

I think this is a lot easier to pull off than any 0 to death proposed so far, since it only requires you to read a spotdodge or roll with dsmash (which is about as safe as Mario's usmash) after the opponent has respawned, and they can have up to 10-30% if you do shorter versions of this, i.e. dsmash -> dsmash -> nair -> dsmash -> flip kick / grab to bnb or nair -> dsmash -> flip kick / grab to bnb.

Connecting that first down smash near mid stage is the difficult part really, but in my opinion no competitive ZSS main has an excuse not to go for the full setup if they manage to create that initial situation. A combo of this difficulty is rare to Smash, but pretty standard fare in other fighting games, and during the 6 days or so that I tested this I for example got the execution down to about 3/4 success ratio. This will probably see use in some form unlike other 0 to death setups, but it's still not going to be all that often.

unless sakurai'd

 

[Wintropy]

Actually for both flip jump and boost kick 0 to deaths, same characters + for the sourspot chain at higher percents, but yeah. And true, Greninja technically avoids this, but is still put into a pretty bad spot.

i knew i'd missed some ha ha~

however effective it might be, i can't see a tangible drawback to it existence. you're not impaired by having it. even if you seldom get to use the tech, in theory, i'd rather have something potentially useful than not have it at all.

 

[Mario766]

Shulk's frame data is actually worse than D3 and Charizard

It's slightly better than D3's.

It's worse than Charizard's.

Being even close to D3 in frame data is literally being compared to the worst though, so it means little. Shulk being barely above D3/Charizard/Bowser/Ganon basically means you're the tallest of 5 *******.

 

[adom4]

It's slightly better than D3's.

It's worse than Charizard's.

Being even close to D3 in frame data is literally being compared to the worst though, so it means little. Shulk being barely above D3/Charizard/Bowser/Ganon basically means you're the tallest of 5 *******.

Ganon's aerial data is miles above Shulk's though, Shulk isn't even close to Ganon in terms of frame data on almost every move (U-tilt doesn't count for obvious reasons).

 

[Mario766]

When was I comparing Ganon's frame data to Shulk's.

Oh

Right


I wasn't.

Ever

 

[Ffamran]

So how good did ZSS just get?

Notice something, everyone, that three of those characters have the same fall speed: Falco, Mega Man, and Roy. Little Mac wasn't on there, but he also shares the same fall speed as well. Also, all 4 of them share similar physiques unlike the 1.65 fast faller where you have big guys like Ganondorf and Ike and smaller to average-sized Duck Hunt and Bowser Jr. Hell, let's add 1.66 fast faller Meta "Stubby" Knight and 1.63 fast faller, large and in charge, DK. All 1.8 fast fallers are about average-sized and average width. If Wolf returns and keeps his 1.8 fast fall speed and let's say, for ***** and giggles 'cause why not, Cloud and say, random character... Squall Leonhart have 1.8 fast fall speeds, then guess what? You now have 7 characters with 1.8 fast fall speeds who all have similar builds. If a setup works on Roy, then it likely works on the other 6. There won't be any checking like, this setup works on DK, but will it work on Ganondorf since he's thinner or this setup works on Luigi, will it work on Link?

Shared attributes in a game with much more factors and differing attributes than in other fighting games... Is there a line when it shouldn't exceed a certain amount of characters? As mentioned above, I think it's fine so long as the characters aren't all similar in build. In that case, while it would kill Falco's edgeguard, he might prefer having his 3.1 fall speed from Melee, Roy might prefer having a fall speed closer to Ike which would hurt his vertical survivability, but help his passive recovery since he wouldn't fall down too fast before reaching the stage, and Little Mac and Mega Man would still share their 1.8 fall speed, bit it wouldn't really matter as it's only a, "if it works on him, it'll work on me", instead of' "it if it works on him, it works on all of us."

Shared attributes don't extend too far, though. Even for semi-clone, "Luigified", the Ken, or what have you, characters don't share much except for "EX" characters like Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, or Lucina who are more like different versions of the same characters rather than a different character who is a moveset clone of another - wow, convoluted, much? - with differing properties like the Melee clones. Inevitably, this does lead to Falco... Unlike other semi-clones, Falco's attributes not his moves are very close to Fox's. Take Luigi who has low fall speed, low air speed, slightly lower ground speed to Mario's average fall speed, high air speed, and slightly higher ground speed with only hop height being the same or take Captain Falcon and Ganondorf where they only share high fall speed, high weight, and slower air acceleration while other attributes are night and day. Between Fox and Falco, they share high fall speeds, low air speeds, average air acceleration, low weight, high walk speeds, and hop heights. The only difference? Fox's run speed is much higher and Falco's jump is higher. Between Fox and Wolf, they only share high fall speeds and high walk speeds while having polarizing air speeds, run speeds, weight, and hop and jump heights. If it's between Falco and Wolf, then low run speed is added as a shared attribute, but air speed, weight, and hop and jump heights remain different. This hurts characters - Falco - when they're a bit too similar to another. When people say Fox struggles against Luigi and Rosalina, the same reasons can be used for Falco. This is different when talking about Mario/Captain Falcon vs. Rosalina and Luigi/Ganondorf vs. Rosalina.

 

[Y2Kay]

When was I comparing Ganon's frame data to Shulk's.

Oh

Right


I wasn't.

Ever

Cough! Cough!

Shulk being barely above D3/Charizard/Bowser/Ganon basically means you're the tallest of 5 *******.

 

[Mario766]

On the tier list.

...

Does no one read anymore.

 

[Y2Kay]

On the tier list.

...

Does no one read anymore.

You only qouted the part about shulk's frame data and never mentioned a tier list a single time in your post.

I read plenty

 

[Trifroze]

Notice something, everyone, that three of those characters have the same fall speed: Falco, Mega Man, and Roy. Little Mac wasn't on there, but he also shares the same fall speed as well. Also, all 4 of them share similar physiques unlike the 1.65 fast faller where you have big guys like Ganondorf and Ike and smaller to average-sized Duck Hunt and Bowser Jr. Hell, let's add 1.66 fast faller Meta "Stubby" Knight and 1.63 fast faller, large and in charge, DK. All 1.8 fast fallers are about average-sized and average width. If Wolf returns and keeps his 1.8 fast fall speed and let's say, for ***** and giggles 'cause why not, Cloud and say, random character... Squall Leonhart have 1.8 fast fall speeds, then guess what? You now have 7 characters with 1.8 fast fall speeds who all have similar builds. If a setup works on Roy, then it likely works on the other 6. There won't be any checking like, this setup works on DK, but will it work on Ganondorf since he's thinner or this setup works on Luigi, will it work on Link?

In this particular setup gravity for once plays a more important role than fall speed. It determines how quickly the character starts falling back to the ground after down smash (or any move of course). Dedede for example has the 2nd highest fall speed but avoids the 0 to death setup because of his gravity.

 

[Mario766]

You only qouted the part about shulk's frame data and never mentioned a single time in your post.

I read plenty

The post would make even less sense if I was referring to frame data. You can't be higher in frame data unless I was talking about his frame data being higher, or slower.

Which would literally destroy any sense of logic in the post.

Because these posts are going back towards the tier list that was posted, it's still relevant to the discussion, regardless of whether it's shown up in a quote or not because I'm not multi-quoting something I don't have to because it's time consuming and doesn't need to be re-spoken.

 

[Ffamran]

In this particular setup gravity for once plays a more important role than fall speed. It determines how quickly the character starts falling back to the ground after down smash (or any move of course). Dedede for example has the 2nd highest fall speed but avoids the 0 to death setup because of his gravity.

Oh yeah, forgot about gravity... Is that the reason why Little Mac wasn't there? His gravity is 0.08 which is pretty average. Roy's isn't listed anywhere, but let's assume it's also 0.8, then shouldn't it work on Little Mac? Roy's gravity is probably at least 0.10 which is close to Mega Man's 0.1071 and more in line with the other high fast fallers having +0.10 gravities. The weird thing is, and I assume this is an error, but Mr. Game & Watch's gravity is listed as 0.80 on Kuro's site... I think that's supposed to be 0.08. Likewise, Fox's is listed at 0.08715... Pretty sure there should be a 1 in the tenths place. Or it should be 0.19 like the wiki said...

Really, developers? Really? Falco's gravity used to be 1.12 in Brawl. Guess what it is now? 0.13, the same as Wolf's. So, not only does Falco have Wolf's Bair animation, Up Smash in function, Dair startup, Uair startup after 1.0.8, and his fall speed, but also his gravity. The more I look at this, the more I think Wolf was scrapped and Falco ended up taking Wolf's leftovers... Oh man, the implications of Wolf having a frame 6-9 Bair that strong... Seagull would be a rampage with that Bair.

 

[Trifroze]

Oh yeah, forgot about gravity... Is that the reason why Little Mac wasn't there? His gravity is 0.08 which is pretty average. Roy's isn't listed anywhere, but let's assume it's also 0.8, then shouldn't it work on Little Mac? Roy's gravity is probably at least 0.10 which is close to Mega Man's 0.1071 and more in line with the other high fast fallers having +0.10 gravities. The weird thing is, and I assume this is an error, but Mr. Game & Watch's gravity is listed as 0.80 on Kuro's site... I think that's supposed to be 0.08. Likewise, Fox's is listed at 0.08715... Pretty sure there should be a 1 in the tenths place. Or it should be 0.19 like the wiki said...

Really, developers? Really? Falco's gravity used to be 1.12 in Brawl. Guess what it is now? 0.13, the same as Wolf's. So, not only does Falco have Wolf's Bair animation, Up Smash in function, Dair startup, Uair startup after 1.0.8, and his fall speed, but also his gravity. The more I look at this, the more I think Wolf was scrapped and Falco ended up taking Wolf's leftovers... Oh man, the implications of Wolf having a frame 6-9 Bair that strong... Seagull would be a rampage with that Bair.

Roy and Falcon have similar fall speed (Falcon has a bit faster one), and the air time / ground time frames were 25/4 for Falcon and 24/5 for Roy, meaning Roy still hit the ground faster. Since Falcon's gravity value is 1.2, it would require Roy to have a higher one, so it's probably 1.3, the same as Falco's, or some odd number around that. Ryu's is listed as 1.2, which may very well be true. It's why he can SHFF so quickly despite having an average fall speed.

 

[Routa]

not really?
A Swordfighter is all about spacing with disjointed moves to keep the enemy where as a Brawler is all about using fast movement and frame data to overpower the enemy
Mii Swordfighter is far more like the archetype of the same name than anything else even if he borrows moves from non Swordfighters like F-air/D-air/"Cape"

I would say that Brawler that one of the defining things is "not allowing your foe any room to breath". The thing about Swordfighter is he can be played as a classic Swordsman type of character or more Brawler/Swordsman type of mixture. What allows this? Height/Weight + Different specials. Smaller fighters are better for more face to face combat or more offensive spacing than Mid and tall ones. Hmmm I think the spacing game could be compared to Doc's Rar Bairs in neutral. They are used as a keep away tool, but when you connect one you want to follow up it instantly with something (in Swordfighters case follow up Fair with D-tilt, Jab, Grab etc). He has some key features of a Brawler, but as you said he more of a Swordsman archetype.

Edit: Brain why wont you cooperate with me!

 

[Teshie U]

Not enough for pit to be high and ebony pit to be high mid. They should both be next to each other, but there is always two, three, or even four chars. In between.

A more reliable projectile and a more reliable KO tool can make a big difference.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

A more reliable projectile and a more reliable KO tool can make a big difference.

Two KO tools if you count F-tilt, Pit's F-tilt can kill when tippered. Pittoo's has less knockback. And doesn't kill until extremely high percents, with rage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Actually for both flip jump and boost kick 0 to deaths, same characters + for the sourspot chain at higher percents, but yeah. And true, Greninja technically avoids this, but is still put into a pretty bad spot.

I think this is a lot easier to pull off than any 0 to death proposed so far, since it only requires you to read a spotdodge or roll with dsmash (which is about as safe as Mario's usmash) after the opponent has respawned, and they can have up to 10-30% if you do shorter versions of this, i.e. dsmash -> dsmash -> nair -> dsmash -> flip kick / grab to bnb or nair -> dsmash -> flip kick / grab to bnb.

Connecting that first down smash near mid stage is the difficult part really, but in my opinion no competitive ZSS main has an excuse not to go for the full setup if they manage to create that initial situation. A combo of this difficulty is rare to Smash, but pretty standard fare in other fighting games, and during the 6 days or so that I tested this I for example got the execution down to about 3/4 success ratio. This will probably see use in some form unlike other 0 to death setups, but it's still not going to be all that often.

unless sakurai'd

It's one of the least situational gimmicky 0 to death's I agree, but it's still not gonna be frequent outside of maybe Falco. Our best ZSS player in the world hasn't really used it despite knowing about it, probably because he's opting to do it in 2-3 grabs instead of just 1 DSmash.

Pretty interesting find regardless inb4nextpatchkillsit

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Why is that on every tier list dark pit and pit are always apart? Do people just not know there's little difference between them?

The list is composed by averages of voted numbers. Even though Pit and D. Pit were only about 1/3 of a point apart, because Pit was near the bottom of his tier, D.Pit ended up at the top of the next one.

Also the tier list did include D as a voting option. It was simply that no one averaged low enough to get D. Zelda moved up from D+ to C- compared to the last list.

I don't think that Shulk is in the league with dedede and charizard. shulks frame data is bad but not bad as dedede's. He is unviable but not bottom 10 imo

You are incorrect. Shulk has the overall worst frame data in the game. Comparing Shulk to Dedede, in terms of who's faster:

Jab: Shulk
Jab 3: DDD
Grab: Even
Dash Attack: Shulk
Ftilt: DDD
Utilt: DDD
Dtilt: DDD
Fsmash: Shulk
Dsmash: DDD
Usmash: DDD
Nair: DDD
Fair: DDD
Bair: DDD
Dair: Shulk

When you consider that neither use dash attack or dair that often, and that DDD rarely uses fsmash it becomes even worse.

 

[Wintropy]

thing with dark pit's side-b is that the pits' side-b is, by definition, a niche kill option at best. it's more practical as a recovery, in which case there's no difference between his and pit's. even then, dark pit's has its uses in certain matchups that pit's doesn't (rosalina is probably the only relevant one, but little mac is worth mentioning).

f-tilt is undeniably a good option to have, there's no reason why you don't want to have a safe-on-tip disjointed kill move, but it's not really make or break. it's a relatively minor distinction.

can't refute arrows though, pit's in hands down. that is a big part of his gameplan and something dark pit can't really compete with. that in itself is why i'd agree in theory to dark pit being the inferior of the two pits, but even then i don't think there's any justification for it being more then one or two spots on the tier list (or whatever the respective equivalent is).

i don't think there's much debate here, dark pit is near-objectively the weaker of the to pits, or at the very least, he isn't better than pit. but i don't think there's any reason to consider there's that much of a gulf between the two. that's kind of implying the balance in the game is so good that a small handful of relatively minor distinctions, tethered to an otherwise decent character, is enough to separate them between entire tiers (or, again, whatever the respective equivalent is).

i'm an optimist in terms of this game's balance, but i think that's offering it too much credit. i mean, realistically speaking, who's going to fit between the to pits in terms of viability?

 

[Trifroze]

I've wanted to compile some sort of practical frame data (startup and FAF) averages for every character for a while now, but it's hard when different characters have different moves that are useless by design and clearly shouldn't be counted. Still, the criteria has to be universal to avoid the bias of counting the average from 10 moves for one character and 5 for another because they benefit from a different amount of moves in their gameplay.

Maybe something like the 12 most useful / commonly used options for every character + their fastest grab variation. It can become pretty arguable which moves make it into that 12 and which don't though.

 

[BSP]

I know it really doesn't matter in the long run, but who do you guys think is the #3 character in the game right now? is one, is two, but who's three?

 

[KenMeister]

I know it really doesn't matter in the long run, but who do you guys think is the #3 character in the game right now? is one, is two, but who's three?

rosalina definitely. Has arguably the best neutral in the game for slot of characters to work around and often ruins viability for some of them

 

[Smog Frog]

no. its contested between . to say it's "definitely" is misleading.

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

You state that Falcon's rapid j

What

As to third in the game probably Mario or Sonic. Mario sounds crazy even to me but his results are just really, really, really, good. Like, really good. His combos and grab reward are the best in a game centralized primarily around countering shields, his OOS is the best in a game centered secondarily around OOS. His frame data is the best in the game, his smash attacks are the best in the game. His neutral is solid.
He's just such a solid character.

 

[Goesasu]

The list is composed by averages of voted numbers. Even though Pit and D. Pit were only about 1/3 of a point apart, because Pit was near the bottom of his tier, D.Pit ended up at the top of the next one.

Also the tier list did include D as a voting option. It was simply that no one averaged low enough to get D. Zelda moved up from D+ to C- compared to the last list.



You are incorrect. Shulk has the overall worst frame data in the game. Comparing Shulk to Dedede, in terms of who's faster:

Jab: Shulk
Jab 3: DDD
Grab: Even
Dash Attack: Shulk
Ftilt: DDD
Utilt: DDD
Dtilt: DDD
Fsmash: Shulk
Dsmash: DDD
Usmash: DDD
Nair: DDD
Fair: DDD
Bair: DDD
Dair: Shulk

When you consider that neither use dash attack or dair that often, and that DDD rarely uses fsmash it becomes even worse.

Yes, shulk has the worst startup frame data of the game, even worse than 3D, but his endlag or recovery is not bad at all.

The thing with this forum is that preople only see numbers and not the interaction that those numbers have with the wole character. People usually say that ^shulk has the worst frame data so he is instantly the worst character^ but dont take the time to understand how that frame data interacts with his long disjointed reach and speed or jump arts.

Its true that character are numbers, but they are not frame data numbers alone. There is a reason for everything and the reason of shulk bad startup frame data is monado speed, otherwise he would be a faster sonic with the best range in the game and disjointed. Same case for palutena and lightweight, there is a reason for her to have the worst endlag of the game.

You guys usually oversimplify the game and or underestimate sakurai decisions by reducing everything and everyoutcome or matchup to frame data. where is the valoration of disjoints, reach of hitbox and hurtbox, ground and air mobility, recovery options. All of this matters just like frame data matters.

If only people would be willing to see beyond frame data numbers alone we would have a more diverse metagame.

 

[Epok]

I may sound like Scrubzilla here, but what do we mean by "frame data"? Are we simply talking about start up and end lag, or how many active frames or both? Also, is damage incorporated into this?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I know it really doesn't matter in the long run, but who do you guys think is the #3 character in the game right now? is one, is two, but who's three?

At this point, Rosa. Sonic and Ryu are also pretty good candidates.

 

[G. Stache]

His combos and grab reward are the best in the game. His frame data is the best in the game, his smash attacks are the best in the game.

Would like to have a word with you. And how can Mario have the best smashes when Doc exists?

 

[bc1910]

3rd best is Rosalina right now. This is based on results though. Theory lets her down a little. She loses to the two characters above her and has random iffy MUs across the cast, with those who can remove Luma easily (Marth) or kill her easily (Ryu). Also, even looking at just results, she doesn't actually win stuff as much as you would expect. She always makes a strong showing and gets 2nd-4th but I'm struggling to think of notable wins.

I can see Ryu overtaking her in time, he's bonkers and none of his iffy MUs are relevant except arguably Mega Man and Greninja (the latter of whom may not even be iffy). The SDI stuff looks significant though. Not significant enough to knock him out of top tier, mind, but it could force him to hit you a few more times before killing you.

Sonic is top 5 right now, but he's been doing the same stuff since 3DS release and it's still working. I feel he is linear for a top tier and is more likely to fall than rise. His effectiveness will depend entirely on the ability of the playerbase to adapt to the same stuff he's been doing since Brawl, only he can actually kill you now. Sonic's a great character, don't get me wrong, but I feel he has less room to develop than others.

I can see Pikachu clawing his way (back?) into top 5 if people master his kill setups. Reacting to DI on Uthrow leads into 50/50 kill confirms with Thunder if you know how, and I think they're guaranteed at some percents. QA remains silly and Pikachu doesn't have any "bad" stages, which is crucial.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I know it really doesn't matter in the long run, but who do you guys think is the #3 character in the game right now? is one, is two, but who's three?

I personally think is the third best, alrhough I know many will disagree.

He has great aierals, great grab game, great combos, great damage-racking, good dash attack, good smashes, great up tilt, good neutral, down and up specials, good projectile, good matchups, and great recovery (I think people consider it one of the best, if not the best. And I agree it's one of the best, if not the best). The reason why generally isn't considered the third best is because of two big flaws.

1.Lack of results apart from Esam. I think Pikachu still has good results due to Esam though, just not as good as some other top tiers.

2.Trouble KOing. His up smash and forward smash have pretty good KO power, but this can be hard to get. But this is still a big flaws.

Edit:Other candidates are (I defitenly disagree with this) and . and are mentioned on rare occasions.

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

Would like to have a word with you. And how can Mario have the best smashes when Doc exists?

Because at this point Luigi's grab combos are not as good as Mario's. And as for Doc, I am talking about relevant characters. And besides, at the end of the day, Doc's smash attacks are literally based on Mario's, so if his are the best, Mario's are just behind, almost exactly the same. And when looked at outside a vacuum, Mario's are better.

 

[wedl!!]

>Pikachu has a good dash attack

Stopped reading after that.

Also IMO the potential #3 is Ryu, and Sonic/Rosa interchangeably. Of the three, Sonic is most likely to be #5 if players got better at adapting to the character. He is far more linear than all of the other top tiers but is really strong regardless.

 

[Wintermelon43]

>Pikachu has a good dash attack

Stopped reading after that.

Also IMO the potential #3 is Ryu, and Sonic/Rosa interchangeably. Of the three, Sonic is most likely to be #5 if players got better at adapting to the character. He is far more linear than all of the other top tiers but is really strong regardless.

And in what way is it bad?

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

I personally think is the third best, alrhough I know many will disagree.

He has great aierals, great grab game, great combos, great damage-racking, good dash attack, good smashes, great up tilt, good neutral, down and up specials, good projectile, good matchups, and great recovery (I think people consider it one of the best, if not the best. And I agree it's one of the best, if not the best). The reason why generally isn't considered the third best is because of two big flaws.

1.Lack of results apart from Esam. I think Pikachu still has good results due to Esam though, just not as good as some other top tiers.

2.Trouble KOing. His up smash and forward smash have pretty good KO power, but this can be hard to get. But this is still a big flaws.

Edit:Other candidates are (I defitenly disagree with this) and . and are mentioned on rare occasions.

Size is another great attribute that is often overlooked. Some characters just have moves that are entirely negated by his irritating size, or otherwise require immense precision to perform well against Choo. And while they're stumbling around they're getting quick attacked into utilt into uthrow into down b, or gimped.

 

[Ffamran]

I've wanted to compile some sort of practical frame data (startup and FAF) averages for every character for a while now, but it's hard when different characters have different moves that are useless by design and clearly shouldn't be counted. Still, the criteria has to be universal to avoid the bias of counting the average from 10 moves for one character and 5 for another because they benefit from a different amount of moves in their gameplay.

Maybe something like the 12 most useful / commonly used options for every character + their fastest grab variation. It can become pretty arguable which moves make it into that 12 and which don't though.

Trifroze, you could do something like find common moves and average them out like that. So, if you did jabs, as in actual boxing punch jabs, you could narrow that down to at least half the cast. Or perhaps "poke" kicks which would only have Captain Falcon, Falco, Fox, Luigi, (Dr.) Mario, Samus, and ZSS. At that point, you'll have to decide if Ganondorf fits because it's less of a poke and more of a "GTFO me, boy!" move or even Ryu's since while he can poke with it, the fact it can't angle means it's kind of disadvantaged in terms of utility which Ganondorf also lacks. The issue with this is that you'll end up having to categorize a bunch of moves some of which won't have anyone else like Ganondorf's Utilt and some that would have a low amount of people like Captain Falcon and Samus's Utilt compared to the scorpion kick Utilts of Fox, Jigglypuff, and Kirby which would have more than Samus's is meant for anti-air kills and setups vs. Captain Falcon's is more for edgeguarding.

Edit: You could do a light, medium, and heavy format. So, a light kick could be considered something like the poke kicks while a hard kick is more like Ganondorf's Ftilt.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Yes, shulk has the worst startup frame data of the game, even worse than 3D, but his endlag or recovery is not bad at all.

The thing with this forum is that preople only see numbers and not the interaction that those numbers have with the wole character. People usually say that ^shulk has the worst frame data so he is instantly the worst character^ but dont take the time to understand how that frame data interacts with his long disjointed reach and speed or jump arts.

Its true that character are numbers, but they are not frame data numbers alone. There is a reason for everything and the reason of shulk bad startup frame data is monado speed, otherwise he would be a faster sonic with the best range in the game and disjointed. Same case for palutena and lightweight, there is a reason for her to have the worst endlag of the game.

You guys usually oversimplify the game and or underestimate sakurai decisions by reducing everything and everyoutcome or matchup to frame data. where is the valoration of disjoints, reach of hitbox and hurtbox, ground and air mobility, recovery options. All of this matters just like frame data matters.

If only people would be willing to see beyond frame data numbers alone we would have a more diverse metagame.

It's known that the frame data is meant to account for the Monados/Disjoint. It's also known that they don't really do enough for Shulk. Shulk has been talked to death in previous threads already.

It's not just his startup. You say Palutena has the worst endlag, but shes got better recovery and overall frames on all smash, nair, fair, bair, dair, and dash attack than Shulk. They have the same jab 1 FAF but Palutena has better recovery.

Shulk's Fair requires a double jump to autocancel (unless you do a rising fair and drift the entire time which isnt pratical) while Uair, Nair, Bair, and Dair don't even autocancel when you do normal double jumps. Getting an aerial shielded is often pure punishment with every aerial.

Sure nair is technically neutral on shield drop, but you'd have to hit them with the beam tip (nair, unlike other attacks, does more damage on the beam than the blade) while landing on almost the same frame. Then you're next to someone at a neutral frame setting which is basically a disadvantage because you're Shulk. Additionally, if you're in any art other than buster or jump you can't even hit that neutral frame setting from the loss of damage.

Shulk's jab 3 comes out on frame 12. That's just asking to get grabbed.

When Shulk is in the air, he's got a gigantic blind spot diagonally infront of him, which is where his enemies just want to be. This is because fair starts at frame 14, but far above Shulk, and Nair is frame 13, but only hits in front around frame 18-20.

As far as range, Shulk's jab combo, fair, and ftilt are all the exact same range as Ike's. Except Ike's are faster, do more damage when spaced, and his aerials can autocancel in a shorthop. Shulk's Bair is basically an aerial smash attack. Shulk's nair has more range, but I'd rather have the nair that starts 1 frame faster, does more damage, and starts in front of me.

People don't just say X character wins because they have good frame data, it's just the answer to the question of: If Shulk has the Monado Arts and disjointed range how can he be bad?

It's the same way you could have looked at Smash 64 Link and thought - wow, the only character with two projectiles, disjointed attacks, and a tether grab, he must be amazing.

My icon's not just for show, I play a lot of Shulk. He's really not that hot.

 

[BSP]

Edit:Other candidates are (I defitenly disagree with this) and . and are mentioned on rare occasions.

Why do you disagree with ? I tend to forget about him entirely tbh, but I think he's right up there for consideration. Focus is dumb, confirms into SRK are dumb, etc. (i did not watch the SDI think though. if his confirms are gone, then i would be iffy on him in top 3 too)

 

[Wintermelon43]

Why do you disagree with ? I tend to forget about him entirely tbh, but I think he's right up there for consideration. Focus is dumb, confirms into SRK are dumb, etc. (i did not watch the SDI think though. if his confirms are gone, then i would be iffy on him in top 3 too)

I have my reasons. That's all I can say, I don't have Ryu so I know nothing about him.

 

[Dagon97]

And in what way is it bad?

It is very easy to react to on start up (only 6 frames), it has a FAF of 50 and it doesn't kill until >150%.

 

[FullMoon]

It is very easy to react to on start up (only 6 frames), it has a FAF of 50 and it doesn't kill until >150%.

In what world is a frame 6 move easy to react to.