Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Djent]

TBH if someone with ESAM's reactions still struggles to ever land uthrow -> Thunder, it's probably not humanly possible to get it consistent. Fortunately, the cost of missing in that situation is low.

 

[Pyr]

Because at this point Luigi's grab combos are not as good as Mario's. And as for Doc, I am talking about relevant characters. And besides, at the end of the day, Doc's smash attacks are literally based on Mario's, so if his are the best, Mario's are just behind, almost exactly the same. And when looked at outside a vacuum, Mario's are better.

At all percentages, Luigi's grab game is still better then Mario's. From low percent damage racking, to regrabs, to 50/50 kill situations, Luigi is better at it. The only thing that Mario does better is in back throw killing. It has better growth and an extra 1%. If Mario can do it off of a throw, chances are Luigi is better at it, including the late Up-Throw kills.

Quick edit: The overall reward for Luigi is greater then Mario, basically. Just because it's not a guaranteed kill or not as simple to perform doesn't meant that it's suddenly worse now.

 

[Ghostbone]

Would like to have a word with you. And how can Mario have the best smashes when Doc exists?

Mario's f-smash is better than Doc's (or Luigi's).

His up-smash is also effectively better despite killing later than those two because Mario has higher ground speed. Sure in a vacuum the other two are "better" but they don't get as much use out of them cos they can't catch their rolls or run underneath people easily.

 

[Ffamran]

Well, that explains a lot... Y'know, it would be really cool if ZSS used her U-throw to do her Uair strings to Boost Kick 'cause y'know, a flip kick as a throw to more flip kicks with a finisher kick? Hells freaking yeah... Except her recovery for U-throw is 36. That's twice as much as all her other throws. Yes, including D-throw. This probably extends to Yoshi since none of his throws go below 24 frames and 24 is his B-throw which granted, if they caused more hit stun through higher damage or knockback like how Falco's U-throw whiffing its laser doesn't mean much at higher percents, that would be great... Except that doesn't happen.

Also, apparently, Charizard and Zelda's B-throw have 4 recovery frames. Makes sense since they're kill throws and it'd be really stupid to have +30 frames for you to just watch as you flung your opponent far away and your character is recovering from motion sickness or something. I mean, what are you going to do even with that low recovery? Chase them? You ain't Jigglypuff.

 

[Vyrnx]

Well, that explains a lot... Y'know, it would be really cool if ZSS used her U-throw to do her Uair strings to Boost Kick 'cause y'know, a flip kick as a throw to more flip kicks with a finisher kick? Hells freaking yeah... Except her recovery for U-throw is 36. That's twice as much as all her other throws. Yes, including D-throw. This probably extends to Yoshi since none of his throws go below 24 frames and 24 is his B-throw which granted, if they caused more hit stun through higher damage or knockback like how Falco's U-throw whiffing its laser doesn't mean much at higher percents, that would be great... Except that doesn't happen.

Also, apparently, Charizard and Zelda's B-throw have 4 recovery frames. Makes sense since they're kill throws and it'd be really stupid to have +30 frames for you to just watch as you flung your opponent far away and your character is recovering from motion sickness or something. I mean, what are you going to do even with that low recovery? Chase them? You ain't Jigglypuff.

Sometimes when I just want to do something different I will use uthrow and try to go for an air dodge read flip kick spike. It almost always fails but it's worth it for when I get it like... Once every couple months.

 

[Redbane]

Well like I said my example is VERY rough with all the diversity in this game, as well as plenty of overlap in characters, such as Link, a swordsman who also has gunner elements.

Still, I'll give it a shot:

Brawler:


Swordfighter:


Gunners:

Why is ness a brawler but Lucas a gunner

 

[Smog Frog]

because they're fundamentally different characters.

 

[Y2Kay]

because they're fundamentally different characters.

Umm......how? I'm wondering the same thing.

 

[Dagon97]

In what world is a frame 6 move easy to react to.

I worded pretty poorly, it is easy to react to when pikachu's legs go up before the dash attack hitbox comes out and press shield. Myself and all of my friends can do it consistently or at least on Pika's dash attack.

 

[Luco]

Umm......how? I'm wondering the same thing.

Ness is fundamentally a rush down character who wants to get in and get damage, or punish stuff with superior OoS and throw combos + Bthrow as a kill option (and Uair). Because of their different move properties and Lucas' worse grab, Lucas prefers to use the wavebounce from PKF and Zair to zone until he can actually do something more substantial, and not before.

Ness and Lucas are very, very different and always have been. I'm surprised people still aren't fully aware of this.

 

[Ffamran]

At all percentages, Luigi's grab game is still better then Mario's. From low percent damage racking, to regrabs, to 50/50 kill situations, Luigi is better at it. The only thing that Mario does better is in back throw killing. It has better growth and an extra 1%. If Mario can do it off of a throw, chances are Luigi is better at it, including the late Up-Throw kills.

Quick edit: The overall reward for Luigi is greater then Mario, basically. Just because it's not a guaranteed kill or not as simple to perform doesn't meant that it's suddenly worse now.

The weirdest thing is for whatever reason, Luigi's B-throw also takes 7 frames longer to recover... And it's weaker? Cool, developers... Cool...

 

[G. Stache]

Mario's f-smash is better than Doc's (or Luigi's).

His up-smash is also effectively better despite killing later than those two because Mario has higher ground speed. Sure in a vacuum the other two are "better" but they don't get as much use out of them cos they can't catch their rolls or run underneath people easily.

Mario's f smash has a sour spot and isn't as quick as Luigi's F smash iirc. Not to mention that in training mode on FD, I was testing out the up angled side smashes. Pit (the Guinea pig for the test) died at center stage at 97% from Luigi's side smash and he died at 96% from Mario's sweetspotted side smash. Basically no difference of kill power. It should be noted that Mario has more range, though. And, who knows, maybe the angle on Luigi's is easier to DI. Anyways, I'd say the smashes are about equal, so moving on. U smash actually goes to Mario not only because of mobility, but his u smash is a lot harder to DI. It's kinda like charizards and mewtwos u throw. Charizard's is technically stronger, but Mewtwos is better because the angle decreases survivability with DI. Should be noticed that Luigi's u smash is out for an extra frame, however. Finally Dsmash goes to Luigi. Both come out on frame 6, but Luigi's is stronger and does more damage. Plus I'd go on to say it's better for Luigi's overall kit. It's generally safe to throw out and Luigi could use anything he can get. Overall, despite the mobility, I'd say Mario and Luigi's smashes are around even. I was more getting on the case that Luigi wasn't as good as comboing as Mario (which blatantly isn't true). So perhaps I should have specified. Also, concerning doc, I suppose the lack of mobility hurts him quite a bit more than I realized. So I'll give Mario that as well.

 

[Ffamran]

That's just stupid! Ike's F-throw takes 27 frames to recover... It's a freaking front kick! There's no complicated movement like ZSS's BDSM-esque D-throw or Sheik's gymnastic-y D-throw. Link's 23 frames of recovery for F-throw isn't any better... Just kick, pull back your leg, or just land and move forward! Ike and Link should totally be able to move faster from their F-throw and actually combo from it. It would be much more interesting too since the other F-throw that's commonly used for setups and combos is Sheik's... People used to do it with Fox, but like Falco's, it's not really that good. This is an angry way of saying I finished the recover data for throws and pummels.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ness is fundamentally a rush down character who wants to get in and get damage, or punish stuff with superior OoS and throw combos + Bthrow as a kill option (and Uair). Because of their different move properties and Lucas' worse grab, Lucas prefers to use the wavebounce from PKF and Zair to zone until he can actually do something more substantial, and not before.

Ness and Lucas are very, very different and always have been. I'm surprised people still aren't fully aware of this.

To add to this, Lucas's projectile game is far more versatile overall, especially with PK Freeze, which can be used to bait airdodges with it's surprisingly low endlag (meanwhile Din's Fire cries in the corner). PK Thunder is worse in most situations but can still do the job on edgeguarding.

His anti-projectile game is better too, with a faster reflector, stronger absorber and the aforementioned zair.

Edit: Oh, and Lucas's PK Fire just flat out can't be beat out. Punching it just causes it to explode in your face and all non-piercing projectiles are stopped cold by it because it for some reason has a hurtbox.

 

[Horseketchup]

I don't quite get why some ppl outright dismiss the idea that Pikachu could be 3rd best in the game. I've always felt that the best way to approach a tier list is that it's an overall ranking of each character's matchup spreads, with matchups weighted more heavily against other characters with good matchup spreads. As in a good Sheik matchup matters far more in the rankings than having something like a good DDD matchup. One could factor in results to some extent, but honestly results should only help inform us on the state of specific matchups and not be deciding the tier list as a whole. Especially when barely anyone plays Pikachu at a high level (or at all), it's hard to separate ESAM's personal performances from a more objective, results-based view of the character.

Pikachu barely loses to any characters in the game, as far as I know out of the whole cast he only loses slightly to just Mario and Sheik, and likely still Luigi. Seriously though are any of his matchups worse than 45/55? Also he likely beats Rosa a bit, he beats ZSS, and probably beats Ryu (btw DJ Jack has said that ESAM didn't know the Ryu mu well, that set shouldnt be taken as Ryu winning the mu). Pika also has one of the best Sheik matchups, and goes even or better against all the other top tiers including Fox, Diddy, Sonic, and Meta Knight. He might not have as many dominating matchups like Rosa or Ryu. but he also has fewer bad high/top tier matchups that he has to deal with.

Sonic has a great matchup spread, but loses to Rosa and ZSS pretty handily and has a few other tough matchups through the cast. Rosa dominates some characters, but loses to ZSS, Pikachu, and Meta Knight (while having a fairly bad Sheik matchup). Ryu loses to Mario, Pikachu, Villager, slightly loses to Sheik and ZSS, and has some trouble with other zoning heavy characters.

Just consider how Pikachu does better than anyone in the cast against the two best characters in the game, and on top of that he barely loses to anyone else. To me he seems like a clear pick for 3rd best based on matchup spreads alone, or at the very least top 5. It's just odd that Pikachu has such low representation, though I understand its likely due to his high learning curve and how much work you have to put in to master the character. I think as time goes on some other pikas will rise up in the meta and others will be able to demonstrate that its not just ESAM who is artificially boosting the ranking of the character. He's such an all-around amazing character, and every matchup is very doable for him.

 

[Luco]

^ This (Meleebrawler's post)

And like, to be totally fair, PKT edge-guarding and juggling is a massive part of his gameplan, but he won't be using it in the places he'll spend most time in - mid-range or closer.

Ness can't spam PKF (or really just throw it out in neutral) unless he wants to be punished (and hard), nor can he abuse PK Flash or PKT at any other distance than long-range against less mobile characters (I once tried PKT long-range harassment against a ZSS and it got me punished every single time in that set).

It's pretty neat, how the differences in their moves seem subtle but were deliberately designed to affect playstyle.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Shulk's frame data is G A R B A G E. It's as bad as Ike's but, unlike Ike's, he doesn't make up for it in power or damage until he puts on a monado, which only lasts for 15(?) seconds and each monado has its own litany of drawbacks

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario's f smash has a sour spot and isn't as quick as Luigi's F smash iirc. Not to mention that in training mode on FD, I was testing out the up angled side smashes. Pit (the Guinea pig for the test) died at center stage at 97% from Luigi's side smash and he died at 96% from Mario's sweetspotted side smash. Basically no difference of kill power. It should be noted that Mario has more range, though. And, who knows, maybe the angle on Luigi's is easier to DI. Anyways, I'd say the smashes are about equal, so moving on. U smash actually goes to Mario not only because of mobility, but his u smash is a lot harder to DI. It's kinda like charizards and mewtwos u throw. Charizard's is technically stronger, but Mewtwos is better because the angle decreases survivability with DI. Should be noticed that Luigi's u smash is out for an extra frame, however. Finally Dsmash goes to Luigi. Both come out on frame 6, but Luigi's is stronger and does more damage. Plus I'd go on to say it's better for Luigi's overall kit. It's generally safe to throw out and Luigi could use anything he can get. Overall, despite the mobility, I'd say Mario and Luigi's smashes are around even. I was more getting on the case that Luigi wasn't as good as comboing as Mario (which blatantly isn't true). So perhaps I should have specified. Also, concerning doc, I suppose the lack of mobility hurts him quite a bit more than I realized. So I'll give Mario that as well.

Doc DSmash is the best of the Marios as well. It has Mario's angle which is much better for killing except it kills much earlier than his because of the 1.2% damage increase. Just DSmash someone near the ledge at 108% with minor rage and watch them immediately die, it's kind of absurd.

I also still think Doc USmash is the best because it's like Luigi's except with more reach, no sourspot, ridiculous damage and kills significantly earlier than Mario's. He can't trap people into it as easily as Mario's but when you can kill them up to 15-20% earlier (even more depending on positioning, at most 25%, move even scales better with Rage) it's a lot less of an issue, especially when it's a better anti air than Mario's as well.

 

[Amadeus9]

I feel like posting a top 10 tier list because... because discussion. Fight me.

I'll even explain placings

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.


Now, before you get up in arms, I just want to say that I think the gap between ZSS and Sheik is very small. But I do think ZSS is the best fighter in the game.
Basically, this fighter is absurd in every way. She has the best "omg get me out of here" move comboed with the best spike in the game. The best vertically killing move in the game that is also a frame 4 upb meaning it is a completely nuts oos option. One of the best dash grabs in the game that flows into one of the best combo games possessed by any fighter. Completely insane safety on block with spacing (and combo hit confirm!!!) aerials thanks to recent shield changes. The only thing she lacks is an air to ground rising aerial, which I personally feel is more than made up for by the rest of her kit.
She is either extremely oppressive towards or invalidates a solid chunk of the cast.
The thing is with this fighter, is she has an attribute that only 3 fighters in this game have, she can completely invalidate her own matchup spreads by killing you before your gameplan is even relevant. Her hardest matchups are Sheik and Mario, but what does it really matter if you make a random mistake against her and die to an up air combo or a setup into her spike?


Honestly, what can I say about this fighter that hasn't already been said. she really good


This placement isn't controversial either. she good


I see a lot of differing opinions on this fighter, mainly whether or not he's good enough to be top 5. I would say he definitely is. Mario's gameplan works against every fighter in the game, all while having not a single bad matchup. Amazing frame data + damage, really good combo game, and the results at nationals to even secure this placing. He's a shoe-in for me.


This fighter is already doing some pretty gnarly stuff, and damn I expect him to rise honestly as he gets more optimized. I don't think there's much debate that this fighter is top 5, if there is then go ahead and voice it. yay discussion


NOT BIAS LOL

This fighter is super good. He'll consistently kill you between 10-45% if you let him confirm on you, and with rage he gets even more insane, MK has imo the second best comeback ability in this game behind Lucario, you can body him all game and he can just rage combo you two stocks in a row. MK has the most absurd punish game of any fighter in Smash 4. What holds him back? A really hard to play neutral. He lacks the aerial shield safety Ryu and ZSS have, so your neutral is almost entirely played grounded.

But seriously I'm sure people have heard enough about MK from me lol


A fighter I also see a lot of argument for about his placing. Idk, he goes fast and doesn't lose many matchups. Optimally played Sonic (i.e., Komorikiri play) is really, really scary, in that you have to take all initiatives against this fighter, or he'll just camp you and never have to approach, ever. They're your mistakes to make, the sonic just has to stay patient and smart. Unfortunately for him, Smash 4's top tiers have really absurd punish games, so he really, really cant make any mistakes. Well, fortunate for viewers I guess, because it means you'll see way less Sonics at top level, because he is hard to play optimally + win.


This fighter is so over hyped. This fighter is also very good. My opinion is just that this fighter is way too vanilla to be top 5. He's basically Mario with less range, less damage on hit, more troubles killing, but with quick attack. Thing is with quick attack though is that it's also really over hyped as a move. Yes, it's good. No, it's not OP, not even slightly. Dealing with quick attack is fairly easy for most top tiers.
Also, this fighter is only pushed forward at top level by ESAM. When people put Pika in top 5, it's because of ESAM. Without him this fighter wouldn't be on the radar at all. ESAM is really, really good. If this fighter was top 5, we'd actually see ESAM win stuff, sorry.


I don't think this is a controversial postition for Fox at all. Fox's only big issue is trouble killing. Everything else about him is very good.


Ah, what a bumpy ride Diddy Kong has had. He's still kicking though, with Fairs. Kicking you right in the face with fairs.
I really don't have much to say about Diddy. He's really good. Banana is really good. Monkey flip is really good. He has really good aerials.
What I will say is I think Diddy Kong is the very bottom of top tier. Which cleanly rounds off the top tier to 10 fighters! The power gap between Diddy and any fighter not listed here is significant enough, IMO, that a distinction should be made. Yeah, you can win stuff if you were playing a fighter below Diddy, but you're going to have a rough time each and every time you meet one of the fighters in this top ten.

So yeah, top ten.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ness is fundamentally a rush down character who wants to get in and get damage, or punish stuff with superior OoS and throw combos + Bthrow as a kill option (and Uair). Because of their different move properties and Lucas' worse grab, Lucas prefers to use the wavebounce from PKF and Zair to zone until he can actually do something more substantial, and not before.

Ness and Lucas are very, very different and always have been. I'm surprised people still aren't fully aware of this.

I didn't play brawl competitively and don't no the Lucas MU that much.

 

[BTVolta]

DJ Jack has said that ESAM didn't know the Ryu mu well, that set shouldn't be taken as Ryu winning the mu

Ryu loses to Mario, Pikachu, Villager, slightly loses to Sheik and ZSS, and has some trouble with other zoning heavy characters.

What evidence is there that Ryu loses to Pika? That match up looks bad for Pika in all the ways Luigi was(and still might be?) a bad match up for Pikachu pre-patch(better damage per hit and better kill confirms).

 

[Horseketchup]

What evidence is there that Ryu loses to Pika? That match up looks bad for Pika in all the ways Luigi was(and still might be?) a bad match up for Pikachu pre-patch(better damage per hit and better kill confirms).

Here's a Ryu mu thread where they discuss it toward the bottom, they can explain it better than I can. DJ Jack and others think its one of their worst matchups but not horrible or anything:

http://smashboards.com/threads/talk...ad-challenger-2-zero-suit-samus.410547/page-3

 

[Trifroze]

I don't quite get why some ppl outright dismiss the idea that Pikachu could be 3rd best in the game. I've always felt that the best way to approach a tier list is that it's an overall ranking of each character's matchup spreads, with matchups weighted more heavily against other characters with good matchup spreads. As in a good Sheik matchup matters far more in the rankings than having something like a good DDD matchup. One could factor in results to some extent, but honestly results should only help inform us on the state of specific matchups and not be deciding the tier list as a whole. Especially when barely anyone plays Pikachu at a high level (or at all), it's hard to separate ESAM's personal performances from a more objective, results-based view of the character.

Pikachu barely loses to any characters in the game, as far as I know out of the whole cast he only loses slightly to just Mario and Sheik, and likely still Luigi. Seriously though are any of his matchups worse than 45/55? Also he likely beats Rosa a bit, he beats ZSS, and probably beats Ryu (btw DJ Jack has said that ESAM didn't know the Ryu mu well, that set shouldnt be taken as Ryu winning the mu). Pika also has one of the best Sheik matchups, and goes even or better against all the other top tiers including Fox, Diddy, Sonic, and Meta Knight. He might not have as many dominating matchups like Rosa or Ryu. but he also has fewer bad high/top tier matchups that he has to deal with.

Sonic has a great matchup spread, but loses to Rosa and ZSS pretty handily and has a few other tough matchups through the cast. Rosa dominates some characters, but loses to ZSS, Pikachu, and Meta Knight (while having a fairly bad Sheik matchup). Ryu loses to Mario, Pikachu, Villager, slightly loses to Sheik and ZSS, and has some trouble with other zoning heavy characters.

Just consider how Pikachu does better than anyone in the cast against the two best characters in the game, and on top of that he barely loses to anyone else. To me he seems like a clear pick for 3rd best based on matchup spreads alone, or at the very least top 5. It's just odd that Pikachu has such low representation, though I understand its likely due to his high learning curve and how much work you have to put in to master the character. I think as time goes on some other pikas will rise up in the meta and others will be able to demonstrate that its not just ESAM who is artificially boosting the ranking of the character. He's such an all-around amazing character, and every matchup is very doable for him.

What's the basis for justifying who Pikachu does and doesn't lose to? I don't think we're nearly at the point where viability of characters can be determined by matchups just like that.

If we keep it rather simple, Pikachu's risk vs reward just isn't that good compared to the other top tiers and that's what it comes down to in the end. He has to get in to do damage (even with QA), he needs to get reads to kill, and he dies earlier than anyone else on the top except for Rosalina. Pikachu seems like such a hard work character, his player needs to get the correct guesses with too high of a ratio to result in the character being top tier, and there's nothing to show this to be otherwise.

Pikachu may beat ZSS and do well against Sheik as well, but what top tier MUs does he win convincingly?

 

[Nu~]

I didn't play brawl competitively and don't no the Lucas MU that much.

Hate when people do this.

Why even talk about the character when you know nothing about them?

 

[Amadeus9]

What's the basis for justifying who Pikachu does and doesn't lose to? I don't think we're nearly at the point where viability of characters can be determined by matchups just like that.

If we keep it rather simple, Pikachu's risk vs reward just isn't that good compared to the other top tiers and that's what it comes down to in the end. He has to get in to do damage (even with QA), he needs to get reads to kill, and he dies earlier than anyone else on the top except for Rosalina. Pikachu seems like such a hard work character, his player needs to get the correct guesses with too high of a ratio to result in the character being top tier, and there's nothing to show this to be otherwise.

Pikachu may beat ZSS and do well against Sheik as well, but what top tier MUs does he win convincingly?

None, the answer is none. He's so vanilla it's ridiculous. Nice explanation on it by the way.

On the old thread Dabuz came in to deconstruct Pikachu a bit. Here it is, found it

 

[Illuminose]

Amadeus9 I don't think you understand Zero Suit Samus's matchup spread. Her Sheik matchup is fairly even and so is her Mario matchup. Her hardest matchups are Pikachu and Villager, both of which are quite solid disadvantages for what they are (likely 60:40ish).

Honestly really laughing at the fact that people think Pikachu is overrated given how different the general public opinion is of Pikachu. The crucial piece of the puzzle is that he really loses to no one (besides maybe Mario slightly), which is a very big deal. If we want to talk about good characters Pikachu convincingly beats? Pikachu solidly beats Zero Suit Samus, solidly beats Diddy Kong, and destroys Captain Falcon. Goes even with Sheik, is commonly regarded to beat Rosa at least by a little bit, and goes even or 55:45 with every good character.

 

[Horseketchup]

What's the basis for justifying who Pikachu does and doesn't lose to? I don't think we're nearly at the point where viability of characters can be determined by matchups just like that.

If we keep it rather simple, Pikachu's risk vs reward just isn't that good compared to the other top tiers and that's what it comes down to in the end. He has to get in to do damage (even with QA), he needs to get reads to kill, and he dies earlier than anyone else on the top except for Rosalina. Pikachu seems like such a hard work character, his player needs to get the correct guesses with too high of a ratio to result in the character being top tier, and there's nothing to show this to be otherwise.

Pikachu may beat ZSS and do well against Sheik as well, but what top tier MUs does he win convincingly?

Why aren't top/high tier matchups a good indicator of viability? How a certain character does against some of the best and most popular characters is a good way to understand how they fit in the meta. Anyway Pikachu beats ZSS, Ryu, and Rosalina pretty convincingly imo and does great against Sheik. It's not just just who he beats though, it's who doesn't beat him. Game's been out long enough to get a feel for many matchups and have tons of discussion on it, I think matchup spreads are a really important way to rank characters. If a character like Rosa has really tough Sheik and ZSS matchups while Pikachu excels in those matchups, those are really important considerations as to how far those characters can be taken in tournament. Obviously you have to take every matchup into account to some degree, but the simple fact that pika does the best against the two best characters in the game should count for a lot in terms of why he's one of the best solo characters to play in tournament.

I get what you're saying about risk/reward, however there's just so many variables to consider when it comes to comparing characters in an abstract way like that. ZSS is more high risk/high reward and is definitely a better character overall, yet their attributes happen to align in a way that Pikachu has an advantage against ZSS in that matchup. Pikachu isn't perfect and has more trouble reliably killing than other top tier, but then again every other top tier has their weaknesses as well. We could go through and list Pikachu's strength's and weaknesses but obviously we both weigh them differently, which is why I bring up matchups as a different way to approach this.

I just don't see how Pikachu could do so well against top tiers and lose only a few matchups slightly....and not even be top tier. How is Pikachu winning or at least going even with all of those great characters if you think he's not even on that top tier level? Or do you think disagree about some of these matchups? His speed, combo ability, versatility of QA, tiny hurtboxes, amazing recovery and disadvantage state, offstage edgeguard mixups, and collection of great moves overall I think more than make up for his lack of range and kill confirms. He can thrive in a variety of situations,and I think as players become more confident and skilled at edgeguarding, a character like Pikachu with such a great offstage game will become more valuable. He for sure has something to show for being top tier in my mind, and that's that ESAM has placed top 5 in so many tournaments throughout smash 4 while playing solely pika 95% of the time.

What characters other than Sheik/ZSS have a better matchup spread than Pikachu, and why? I could see Ryu being a bit better overall because of pure dominance in certain matchups along with a pretty consistent spread, but I just don't see characters like Rosa or Sonic being as good as Pika in the grand scheme of things.

(Btw, I think his lack of range also has to be considered in conjunction with the huge advantage of having such a tiny hurtbox. I don't think his range is all that bad when compared with the difficulty that other characters/moves have with catching his hurtbox. He's a smaller target than pretty much any other character in the game, and still has moves like nair, upair, uptilt with some decent range on them)

 

[Ffamran]

As I work on everyone's Special recovery frames, apparently, Greninja's recovery for Water Shuriken is 25. That's the lowest recovery for a projectile so far. It make sense consider his 20 frame startup. Greninja's Water Shuriken is basically Sonic Boom; high/notable startup and low recovery. This is followed by Luigi's 26 if I remember correctly since I just checked and didn't note it down... Fox's is 28... Maybe we should have Fox's Blaster total frames reduced even more since it doesn't do any hit stun!

Also, there's a running trend of 30 frames of landing lag for Up Specials that strictly go up or force you to move up vertically. The only outlier so far is Ryu's whose regular Shoryuken has 18 and input has 12. Oh, and for people who really didn't know, yes, Rest is a ~4 second commitment - it's 3.83333... if you include startup or 3.75 seconds for recovery. You better hope they get star or screen KO'd.

 

[san.]

I believe Gunner's super missile also has 25-26 frames of endlag as well, depending on how you look at it, assuming the first hitbox is the same as Samus' at 23 frames.

 

[FullMoon]

As I work on everyone's Special recovery frames, apparently, Greninja's recovery for Water Shuriken is 25. That's the lowest recovery for a projectile so far. It make sense consider his 20 frame startup. Greninja's Water Shuriken is basically Sonic Boom; high/notable startup and low recovery. This is followed by Luigi's 26 if I remember correctly since I just checked and didn't note it down... Fox's is 28... Maybe we should have Fox's Blaster total frames reduced even more since it doesn't do any hit stun!

Also, there's a running trend of 30 frames of landing lag for Up Specials that strictly go up or force you to move up vertically. The only outlier so far is Ryu's whose regular Shoryuken has 18 and input has 12. Oh, and for people who really didn't know, yes, Rest is a ~4 second commitment - it's 3.83333... if you include startup or 3.75 seconds for recovery. You better hope they get star or screen KO'd.

And then you remember that the endlag was nerfed in the first patch and you realize just how busted shuriken were before lol

 

[Amadeus9]

Amadeus9 I don't think you understand Zero Suit Samus's matchup spread. Her Sheik matchup is fairly even and so is her Mario matchup. Her hardest matchups are Pikachu and Villager, both of which are quite solid disadvantages for what they are (likely 60:40ish).

Honestly really laughing at the fact that people think Pikachu is overrated given how different the general public opinion is of Pikachu. The crucial piece of the puzzle is that he really loses to no one (besides maybe Mario slightly), which is a very big deal. If we want to talk about good characters Pikachu convincingly beats? Pikachu solidly beats Zero Suit Samus, solidly beats Diddy Kong, and destroys Captain Falcon. Goes even with Sheik, is commonly regarded to beat Rosa at least by a little bit, and goes even or 55:45 with every good character.

I've definitely heard from several ZSS mains that her worst matchups are Sheik and Mario, so go ahead, enlighten me.

Also I can tell you that Pika loses to MK. I always find it funny when people think pika goes even with sheik, makes me chuckle a bit. I'm sure if I was a pika main I'd regard it as annoying as when people say mk vs sheik is even. Pika beating Rosa is equally funny. Honestly this debate has been covered for so long by so many people that there is really nothing you or I can add to it, you either have the correct opinion on it or you don't. So sorry to see you're on the wrong side of things.

 

[Djent]

Pikachu is low-reward, low-risk (which might have something to do with his good ZSS MU). Dying early isn't as big an issue when you can almost always recover + have varied options to escape from disadvantage.

My guesses at his MUs (mostly results, but constrained by theory):

Spoiler: Pikachu MUs

-1
=0
+1
+2

Pika mains thought Sheik was "even" (do any still think this?), but realistically it never plays out in Pika's favor. I also don't buy that Rosa or Sonic actually lose those respective MUs either. OTOH he doesn't actually lose badly to anyone, which makes him a fairly resilient solo pick. His MUs vs. mid-tiers are fortunately panning out better than I and others thought they would. He's actually fine vs. Ike, Olimar, Greninja, Peach, and the Pits. Whether or not he's top 5 will depend heavily on what other characters' spreads end up looking like.

There are no top-level Pikas besides ESAM, but this character still does pretty well at the regional level. Japan has Shimitake, Take, and Lean (co-maining Sheik) making top 8 appearances. Meanwhile, Europe has PikaForLife making top 8, and SoCal has Z (who frequently falls just outside top 8 in a very difficult region). NAKAT also manages to make this character look scary despite frequently opting to use Ness and Fox.
EDIT: CosmicCosmos finally won Shockwave with Pika just yesterday...dunno how I forgot about that.

I think these characters would appear better off in comparison if they too lost their single best players:

Spoiler: No Outliers

IOW, no-outlier-universe-Pika looks like a high-tier. I can hardly blame people for thinking he's "overrated" by top players. But then process-of-elimination kicks in, and few characters win out only in terms of results that couldn't already be argued for in theory. People overrate the magnitude of overrating going on here.

 

[Ffamran]

And then you remember that the endlag was nerfed in the first patch and you realize just how busted shuriken were before lol

Meanwhile, Zelda... Okay, her recovery is actually decent; 24 for Din's Fire and 35 for Phantom Slash... What's wrong? Her uncharged, earliest generated projectiles are frame 47 and 31. Wow. Just wow. Freaking Triple D's Gordo which is more of a trap gets launched at frame 29 and Duck Hunt's Gunmen might not hit on frame 47, but they get generated, they become walls, on frame 6.

Also, I messed up, it's Dark Pit - probably the same as Pit - who has the lowest recovery, but only in the air at 20 for his Silver Bow.

Edit: Today I learned why Wario's Bite is such a good command grab: it makes his head intangible from frames 8-25. No other command grab has this. Not even Bowser's Flying Slam which considering his other moves that involve his arms have partial intangibility...

 

[Trifroze]

Why aren't top/high tier matchups a good indicator of viability? How a certain character does against some of the best and most popular characters is a good way to understand how they fit in the meta. Anyway Pikachu beats ZSS, Ryu, and Rosalina pretty convincingly imo and does great against Sheik. It's not just just who he beats though, it's who doesn't beat him. Game's been out long enough to get a feel for many matchups and have tons of discussion on it, I think matchup spreads are a really important way to rank characters. If a character like Rosa has really tough Sheik and ZSS matchups while Pikachu excels in those matchups, those are really important considerations as to how far those characters can be taken in tournament. Obviously you have to take every matchup into account to some degree, but the simple fact that pika does the best against the two best characters in the game should count for a lot in terms of why he's one of the best solo characters to play in tournament.

Matchups are the ultimate and the only indicator of viability in the end, what I'm saying is that there's not yet enough data to simply throw out winning/losing matchups as a means to judge viability without convincing explanations or recurring practical examples (i.e. character x beating character y consistently on the top level) to why you think the matchups are the way they are. There are some matchups that are clear mostly between top/high and low/bottom tiers, but I'd call most top character matchups pretty obscure at this point.

What characters other than Sheik/ZSS have a better matchup spread than Pikachu, and why? I could see Ryu being a bit better overall because of pure dominance in certain matchups along with a pretty consistent spread, but I just don't see characters like Rosa or Sonic being as good as Pika in the grand scheme of things.

(Btw, I think his lack of range also has to be considered in conjunction with the huge advantage of having such a tiny hurtbox. I don't think his range is all that bad when compared with the difficulty that other characters/moves have with catching his hurtbox. He's a smaller target than pretty much any other character in the game, and still has moves like nair, upair, uptilt with some decent range on them)

I think Ryu, Sonic and Rosalina all have very good odds at having better matchup spreads than Pikachu. It's not just about losing matchups, it's about your winning matchups as well. Having a few losing matchups and several convincing winning matchups is better than all your matchups being close, even if it leans towards positive in most cases. Diddy, Mario, Fox and MK all compete with Pikachu as well.

 

[bc1910]

Meanwhile, Zelda... Okay, her recovery is actually decent; 24 for Din's Fire and 35 for Phantom Slash... What's wrong? Her uncharged, earliest generated projectiles are frame 47 and 31. Wow. Just wow. Freaking Triple D's Gordo which is more of a trap gets launched at frame 29 and Duck Hunt's Gunmen might not hit on frame 47, but they get generated, they become walls, on frame 6.

Also, I messed up, it's Dark Pit - probably the same as Pit - who has the lowest recovery, but only in the air at 20 for his Silver Bow.

Edit: Today I learned why Wario's Bite is such a good command grab: it makes his head intangible from frames 8-25. No other command grab has this. Not even Bowser's Flying Slam which considering his other moves that involve his arms have partial intangibility...

Greninja's Water Shuriken has 18 frames of recovery in the air, making it remain the fastest recovering projectile.

This is because only the grounded shuriken got an ending lag nerf; the aerial version has the same ending lag as before. Incidentally despite having no ending lag nerf it still got the startup buff, so aerial shurikens have 38 total frames.

 

[Mario766]

If Ike's f throw was faster...


Dash Attack would combo.


You don't want that.

 

[Horseketchup]

Matchups are the ultimate and the only indicator of viability in the end, what I'm saying is that there's not yet enough data to simply throw out winning/losing matchups as a means to judge viability without convincing explanations or recurring practical examples (i.e. character x beating character y consistently on the top level) to why you think the matchups are the way they are. There are some matchups that are clear mostly between top/high and low/bottom tiers, but I'd call most top character matchups pretty obscure at this point.



I think Ryu, Sonic and Rosalina all have very good odds at having better matchup spreads than Pikachu. It's not just about losing matchups, it's about your winning matchups as well. Having a few losing matchups and several convincing winning matchups is better than all your matchups being close, even if it leans towards positive in most cases. Diddy, Mario, Fox and MK all compete with Pikachu as well.

Ahh okay that makes a lot more sense, misunderstood what you were saying. Idk discussions like these kind of give me headaches in the end because I do recognize that there's always some uncertainty and disagreement in terms of how a bunch of matchups play out. So to properly discuss a characters viability, you have to break down and discuss so many individual relevant matchups and then compare/contrast those matchups with other characters that ppl are arguing for. It's hard to do it without oversimplifying a lot of aspects, and making some assumptions that are gonna be subjective.

I think consistency for matchup spreads is important though, as when comparing characters we're basically ranking who'd do the best in a solo environment. A couple bad matchups against top tiers really can act as a roadblock where you might wanna pick up a secondary, for example Dabuz picking up Villager just for the ZSS matchup. I see the value in having a bunch of lopsided good matchups and a few lopsided bad ones, but when the bad ones happen to be top tiers than I put a lot of weight on those matchups.

It's just hard to rank characters in this game. it's like a rock, paper, scissor game between like 8 or 9 top characters where they all trade matchups between each other to some degree and have situational strengths and weaknesses in tournament that are hard to rank in an overarching way. I at the very least think pika can reasonably have an argument for top 5 because of such a consistent matchup spread against relevant characters.

 

[TriTails]

Mario's f-smash is better than Doc's (or Luigi's).

His up-smash is also effectively better despite killing later than those two because Mario has higher ground speed. Sure in a vacuum the other two are "better" but they don't get as much use out of them cos they can't catch their rolls or run underneath people easily.

Mario's F-smash requires Mario to space it, else he will get the sourspot which is weaker than all three smashes. When sweetspotted it's great, but Doc's easier to sweetspot and Luigi's takes less time to startup and recover. This makes Luigi's F-smash relatively safe on shield even at the worst spacings. It's fairly safe to throw out often, and it presents great risk of dying because uncharged up angled version kills below 100% without rage. Anyone can argue about its range but when you think a lagless smash with decent power to have noticeably more range than that it would be hillarious on lightweights.

Luigi also can easily catch rolls with U-smash. Mario's has a blindspot in front of him and 0.1 isn't Sun to Pluto difference of run speed. Doc's run speed is a let down but it has insane, INSANE coverage for how strong and lagless it is. 1 frame difference on active hitbox just happens to be game-changing for both alter egos. It also happens to deal 16% uncharged for a frame 9 - 13 move, and sends people diagonally yet horizontally, so it's rather awkward to DI.

To complete this, best D-smash belongs to Luigi. No question.

 

[Y2Kay]

Hate when people do this.

Why even talk about the character when you know nothing about them?

?

That's why I asked a question about Lucas. People said they played differently but haven't heard any detailed explanation.

Sometimes I can never win with u guys

 

[Ffamran]

If Ike's f throw was faster...


Dash Attack would combo.


You don't want that.

I don't mean that F-throw's recovery should drop down to 20 from 27, but something like 25 or 23.