Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[teluoborg]

Congratulations @Horseketchup you now understand why everyone that has clear convictions at this point in the game life is ignorant.

Next step is understanding how no one has any idea on how to discuss matchups.

 

[Mario766]

Seems redundant. It's a throw for putting people off stage at a very solid angle, like back throw. Back throw already sets up tech chases, so we only need f throw for stage control.

 

[Ffamran]

Seems redundant. It's a throw for putting people off stage at a very solid angle, like back throw. Back throw already sets up tech chases, so we only need f throw for stage control.

How about making it stronger? We need a kill throw in this game that's a "boot your *** outta here!"

Then again, Ike has a stomp of death, so maybe Link should have that...

 

[Mario766]

It'd be better to put that on back throw then.

Spinning kick of death.

I thought everyone was avoiding talking about Ike buffs after the last couple of patches and everyone went insane.

 

[Jamurai]

Just to add to the Pika discussion, maybe the reason why we don't see that much of him at a high level is a combination of the fact that he doesn't significantly win any matchup bar Falcon (maybe ZSS), and that he has to work hard to get **** done. To play him at the top level you have to be good enough in neutral to set up lots of combos and edgeguard situations, and you also need to be on point with your punishes to get the most out of your low damage per hit. You can't screw up your aggressive edgeguarding or u gon die. And you have to be confident with your few kill setups or you will have to deal with one of the scariest things in this game: top tiers with rage.

If you mess up on any of these points you're going to have a very tough time against those with good vertical kill moves and better damage per hit / general punish game. Pika has to work hard to hang with the rest, kind of similar to MK, and therefore may require a similar level of dedication. In theory he is a very good character, but in practice at high level it seems you have to be smart and extremely familiar with him, because he could be fairly unforgiving otherwise.

------------



Side note: as well as the other characters who have a similarly good matchup spread to Pika, MK fits the bill. As somebody said earlier it's not just about who you don't lose to, it's also about who you beat. Against top tiers MK has a fair few even matchups and is beaten by the best two characters, but from about Falcon downwards, MK arguably beats the vast majority of the cast. Generally, if you don't out-neutral MK significantly then you're at a disadvantage against his ludicrous punish game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I feel like posting a top 10 tier list because... because discussion. Fight me.

I'll even explain placings

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.


Now, before you get up in arms, I just want to say that I think the gap between ZSS and Sheik is very small. But I do think ZSS is the best fighter in the game.
Basically, this fighter is absurd in every way. She has the best "omg get me out of here" move comboed with the best spike in the game. The best vertically killing move in the game that is also a frame 4 upb meaning it is a completely nuts oos option. One of the best dash grabs in the game that flows into one of the best combo games possessed by any fighter. Completely insane safety on block with spacing (and combo hit confirm!!!) aerials thanks to recent shield changes. The only thing she lacks is an air to ground rising aerial, which I personally feel is more than made up for by the rest of her kit.
She is either extremely oppressive towards or invalidates a solid chunk of the cast.
The thing is with this fighter, is she has an attribute that only 3 fighters in this game have, she can completely invalidate her own matchup spreads by killing you before your gameplan is even relevant. Her hardest matchups are Sheik and Mario, but what does it really matter if you make a random mistake against her and die to an up air combo or a setup into her spike?


Honestly, what can I say about this fighter that hasn't already been said. she really good


This placement isn't controversial either. she good


I see a lot of differing opinions on this fighter, mainly whether or not he's good enough to be top 5. I would say he definitely is. Mario's gameplan works against every fighter in the game, all while having not a single bad matchup. Amazing frame data + damage, really good combo game, and the results at nationals to even secure this placing. He's a shoe-in for me.


This fighter is already doing some pretty gnarly stuff, and damn I expect him to rise honestly as he gets more optimized. I don't think there's much debate that this fighter is top 5, if there is then go ahead and voice it. yay discussion


NOT BIAS LOL

This fighter is super good. He'll consistently kill you between 10-45% if you let him confirm on you, and with rage he gets even more insane, MK has imo the second best comeback ability in this game behind Lucario, you can body him all game and he can just rage combo you two stocks in a row. MK has the most absurd punish game of any fighter in Smash 4. What holds him back? A really hard to play neutral. He lacks the aerial shield safety Ryu and ZSS have, so your neutral is almost entirely played grounded.

But seriously I'm sure people have heard enough about MK from me lol


A fighter I also see a lot of argument for about his placing. Idk, he goes fast and doesn't lose many matchups. Optimally played Sonic (i.e., Komorikiri play) is really, really scary, in that you have to take all initiatives against this fighter, or he'll just camp you and never have to approach, ever. They're your mistakes to make, the sonic just has to stay patient and smart. Unfortunately for him, Smash 4's top tiers have really absurd punish games, so he really, really cant make any mistakes. Well, fortunate for viewers I guess, because it means you'll see way less Sonics at top level, because he is hard to play optimally + win.


This fighter is so over hyped. This fighter is also very good. My opinion is just that this fighter is way too vanilla to be top 5. He's basically Mario with less range, less damage on hit, more troubles killing, but with quick attack. Thing is with quick attack though is that it's also really over hyped as a move. Yes, it's good. No, it's not OP, not even slightly. Dealing with quick attack is fairly easy for most top tiers.
Also, this fighter is only pushed forward at top level by ESAM. When people put Pika in top 5, it's because of ESAM. Without him this fighter wouldn't be on the radar at all. ESAM is really, really good. If this fighter was top 5, we'd actually see ESAM win stuff, sorry.


I don't think this is a controversial postition for Fox at all. Fox's only big issue is trouble killing. Everything else about him is very good.


Ah, what a bumpy ride Diddy Kong has had. He's still kicking though, with Fairs. Kicking you right in the face with fairs.
I really don't have much to say about Diddy. He's really good. Banana is really good. Monkey flip is really good. He has really good aerials.
What I will say is I think Diddy Kong is the very bottom of top tier. Which cleanly rounds off the top tier to 10 fighters! The power gap between Diddy and any fighter not listed here is significant enough, IMO, that a distinction should be made. Yeah, you can win stuff if you were playing a fighter below Diddy, but you're going to have a rough time each and every time you meet one of the fighters in this top ten.

So yeah, top ten.

If Pikachu is 8th due to loow results compared to other top tiers, Meta Knight isn't 6th.

(Unless you count results from other regions)

 

[Jamurai]

(Unless you count results from other regions)

Bruh. In what world would we NOT include results from regions outside of the US? The US isn't the be-all-end-all of Smash, far from it in fact.

I'd say Leo winning three nationals and maintaining a ZeRo-esque winstreak against his whole region, containing some of the best players of certain characters in the world (eg. Regi, Hyuga), belongs in the 'good results' box.

 

[meleebrawler]

Shulk's frame data is G A R B A G E. It's as bad as Ike's but, unlike Ike's, he doesn't make up for it in power or damage until he puts on a monado, which only lasts for 15(?) seconds and each monado has its own litany of drawbacks

He has even more range tho.

 

[Mario766]

He has even more range tho.

Irrelevant. No auto cancels and horrendous start up destroys Shulk

 

[Rizen]

Irrelevant. No auto cancels and horrendous start up destroys Shulk

Shulk can use that Mondo art landing cancel AT. He still has terrible frame data though.

 

[Luco]

?

That's why I asked a question about Lucas. People said they played differently but haven't heard any detailed explanation.

Sometimes I can never win with u guys

Nah that's fair. I know this thread is supposed to be an epitome of these boards, and its users are supposed to be "the cream of the crop", but really we all have a lot to learn, including new members who enjoy posting and reading here as well as old farts like me. I didn't mean to come across aggressively and apologise.

Also I feel like the US takes results from other regions... To a point. I'd say we don't know THAT much of what happens in say, Japan, or if we do we don't take it into account enough to think "Wario seems to be doing so well over there, we should put him in our top 15"

 

[Nu~]

I should be the one apologizing. Called him out for talking about characters he has little knowledge on, when what he was trying to do was gain information.

 

[Goesasu]

Irrelevant. No auto cancels and horrendous start up destroys Shulk

No it doesnt, mobility in jump and speed, range, great grab reward in low and mrdium % in speed and buster and in high% in jump and smash, low landing lag in nair, safe on shield backair and well spaced fair, jad and downtilt ok frame data, is enough to give him a good neutral if you know what you are doing but it needs dedication. Only character loyalist would umderstand this.

Unless someone has played over 300 shulk hours its not possible to understand the character ^regular^ gameplan.

Shulk aint bad, but he is not worth the effort from a rational POV. those 300 hours invested into sheik will get you farther no doubt, thats why only character loyalist can truly play shulk how he is designed to be played. Actually people would be surprised how good backslash is, but i can only see it now after a whole year (and a buff).

 

[Browny]

NOT BIAS LOL

What holds him back? A really hard to play neutral.

Yeah, I know what you mean

Holding side on the control stick and then pressing A really drains you physically and mentally

 

[LightLV]

Yaknow, tournaments...

Nope. Teaming up and more importantly feeding each other kills are explicitly against the rules. Other then that, how inherently "competitive" something ends up is irrelevant to those playing it.

This is an impossible rule to moderate, which just proves how stupid this argument of yours is. And i don't know what that last sentence means.

Little Mac had way too much survival in FFAs on release. For a character that's supposed to be very inconsistent he really wasn't... Way to put words in my mouth. The overall balance of the game is incredibly slanted to FFAs, and the lack of buffs to competent FFA characters like Zelda and Samus and the lack of nerfs to Sheik and ZSS should make that evident. Also DDD's Gordos were nerfed for reasons that can only be described as making the move less consistent. Did they really need to be less consistent in 1v1s? Didn't think so.

Ultimately, they're not going to alter a character enough to unbalance FFAs. Whereas Sakurai will gladly design brand-new characters that are super powerful or completely pathetic in 1v1s because his vision of Smash is FFAs. For example, Charizard's throw buffs. Dthrow is complete trash in FFAs even post-patch because it takes a year to finish, and Uthrow is only mildly usable in FFAs because it's easily interrupted. (Mind that platforms are banned in for Glory.)

I've got something for you. Not entirely relevant, but in time i think you can learn to appreciate this (or maybe not, idk)

You see that bubble in the middle? Stop skipping it.

Tell me, what's wrong with for Glory's FFA ruleset? Heck, there's nothing inherently wrong in the 1v1 ruleset for what it is.

Basically anything that could go wrong with any form of competitive moveset in any game is present in For Glory FFA. It is garbage.

In fact, you insisting that it's A-OK is making me question even replying anymore lol

Samus isn't bad in FFAs at all. You have consistent characters, such as Pit or Mario who can deal with any situation but also don't excel in any situation. Then you have the inconsistent characters like Lucario or Little Mac who do extremely well in some situations but terribly in others. Samus is the later due to the nature of her Charge Shot. For example, if she's fighting Mario, Fox and Pit she's going to do terribly because of both the reflectors and how strong each of them are in CQC. But then if she's up against Dorf, Bowser and DK she can both fire her Charge Shots with impunity and works at keeping others out.

Mario doesn't excel in any situation? Are we playing the same game? You can straight-up

Here we go with Charge Shot again. It isn't even a good charge shot. I'd take Wii Fit's any day of the week, it's just objectively better, not to mention it's on a better character. Your one-track-mind idealized FFA samus is completely reliant on the other 3 characters deciding to ignore her poop throwing. You would have a much better argument using Zelda instead, but for some reason you're stuck on Samus.

She's like the basis of your argument, but you fail to realize that she's one of THE worst characters you could base it on. She isn't bad because she's designed for FFA. She's bad because she's poorly designed, the same way Zelda is poorly designed.

FFA only SEEMS more balanced to you because 1) there are too many uncontrollable variables to rate movesets objectively, and/or 2) You are just playing with really, really bad players and thus fail to see why what you're saying is silly. No, these "FFA-balanced" characters aren't FFA balanced, they just aren't having their flaws thrown at your face like in 1v1. If you were arguing "balanced for teams" i could at least side with you.

But you fail to realize that FFA is equally likely to take attention off your flaws (you vs. 3 people) as it is to make them even worse (3 people vs. you), so using that as an end-all basis for character design is just ********.

 

[FlynnCL]

I'd like for someone to correct me if I'm completely off the mark as I'm still learning the game.

To me, Shulk has a few theoretical safe attacks when performed in optimal circumstances (ex. perfectly spaced while landing) but this relies on an opponent giving Shulk the space and respect in order for him to set those up.

He's far less safe when he doesn't have the freedom to space his attacks optimally (it could be an opponent that can close distances quickly or loss of stage control), which isn't impossible when the start-up on most of his attacks range from frame 10~18 and his aerials being unable to auto-cancel in realistic circumstances. His attacks are risky to throw out in neutral due to their very high commitment.

Against opponents that are unable to close distances or chip away at his stage positioning, Shulk can play neutral well. I'd assume this covers fighters that have very poor mobility or range (Kirby or Doc?).

Other than those, I don't see how he can play neutral well. Adding projectiles into the mix just makes things even more difficult.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yeah, I know what you mean

Holding side on the control stick and then pressing A really drains you physically and mentally

You're pretty much proving his point despite that gross simplification. MK's neutral holds him back because he doesn't have a lot of options there.

And that IS daunting. There's only so much you can do in neutral as MK against a competent opponent before you start feeling helpless.

 

[Goesasu]

I'd like for someone to correct me if I'm completely off the mark as I'm still learning the game.

To me, Shulk has a few theoretical safe attacks when performed in optimal circumstances (ex. perfectly spaced while landing) but this relies on an opponent giving Shulk the space and respect in order for him to set those up.

He's far less safe when he doesn't have the freedom to space his attacks optimally (it could be an opponent that can close distances quickly or loss of stage control), which isn't impossible when the start-up on most of his attacks range from frame 10~18 and his aerials being unable to auto-cancel in realistic circumstances. His attacks are risky to throw out in neutral due to their very high commitment.

Against opponents that are unable to close distances or chip away at his stage positioning, Shulk can play neutral well. I'd assume this covers fighters that have very poor mobility or range (Kirby or Doc?).

Other than those, I don't see how he can play neutral well. Adding projectiles into the mix just makes things even more difficult.

Speed and jump helps with both issues, rushdown and projectiles, its not an easy task but is far from impossible. Also his close combat options, despite being ^bad^, serve the purpose to keep the opponent away.

In the big picture you r right, rushdown (sheik and fox particulary) and projectile chars (rob) are hard to overcome for shulk, but he has the tools to fight them back unlike other swordies (marth or ike). Still shulks needs to be played very well to fight back ,so a good shulk player has to have very solid fundamentals.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I don't quite get why some ppl outright dismiss the idea that Pikachu could be 3rd best in the game. I've always felt that the best way to approach a tier list is that it's an overall ranking of each character's matchup spreads, with matchups weighted more heavily against other characters with good matchup spreads. As in a good Sheik matchup matters far more in the rankings than having something like a good DDD matchup. One could factor in results to some extent, but honestly results should only help inform us on the state of specific matchups and not be deciding the tier list as a whole. Especially when barely anyone plays Pikachu at a high level (or at all), it's hard to separate ESAM's personal performances from a more objective, results-based view of the character.

Pikachu barely loses to any characters in the game, as far as I know out of the whole cast he only loses slightly to just Mario and Sheik, and likely still Luigi. Seriously though are any of his matchups worse than 45/55? Also he likely beats Rosa a bit, he beats ZSS, and probably beats Ryu (btw DJ Jack has said that ESAM didn't know the Ryu mu well, that set shouldnt be taken as Ryu winning the mu). Pika also has one of the best Sheik matchups, and goes even or better against all the other top tiers including Fox, Diddy, Sonic, and Meta Knight. He might not have as many dominating matchups like Rosa or Ryu. but he also has fewer bad high/top tier matchups that he has to deal with.

Sonic has a great matchup spread, but loses to Rosa and ZSS pretty handily and has a few other tough matchups through the cast. Rosa dominates some characters, but loses to ZSS, Pikachu, and Meta Knight (while having a fairly bad Sheik matchup). Ryu loses to Mario, Pikachu, Villager, slightly loses to Sheik and ZSS, and has some trouble with other zoning heavy characters.

Just consider how Pikachu does better than anyone in the cast against the two best characters in the game, and on top of that he barely loses to anyone else. To me he seems like a clear pick for 3rd best based on matchup spreads alone, or at the very least top 5. It's just odd that Pikachu has such low representation, though I understand its likely due to his high learning curve and how much work you have to put in to master the character. I think as time goes on some other pikas will rise up in the meta and others will be able to demonstrate that its not just ESAM who is artificially boosting the ranking of the character. He's such an all-around amazing character, and every matchup is very doable for him.

This so much. Exactly the reasons why creating a matchup spread would be more appropriate than an all-around tier list (whilst, of course, using high-level analysis). I've never been a results-heavy Smasher (though I still think they matter to an extent, but as a game develops, and the smaller the cast is, they start to matter less; just look at Melee), and I think this is the reason.

Strangely enough, I feel the same about Yoshi and excluding him for being a potential Top 10 candidate (I've met people here who say this isn't out of the question). Yes, the results are lacking, but I think from a MU perspective, he definitely fits the criteria. I feel the only notable characters he solidly loses to are Sheik and Diddy (Pikachu and maybe also ZSS could be candidates), and I think he beats Ryu, Fox, and Ness (all three could be disputed). It wouldn't take much (Really wanna see a Yoshi at Genesis!).

 

[Y2Kay]

There is something very important about results, when you say: "Character X doesn't place high in a lot of tourneys. He can't be that good." We have over fifty frickin' characters in this game! Not everyone will get played at a high level all the time, because of how many options there are. It doesn't apply to all characters, but it's a factor. Don't live and die by results.

 

[Mario766]

Speed and jump helps with both issues, rushdown and projectiles, its not an easy task but is far from impossible. Also his close combat options, despite being ^bad^, serve the purpose to keep the opponent away.

In the big picture you r right, rushdown (sheik and fox particulary) and projectile chars (rob) are hard to overcome for shulk, but he has the tools to fight them back unlike other swordies (marth or ike). Still shulks needs to be played very well to fight back ,so a good shulk player has to have very solid fundamentals.

Except Ike handles those MUs better still. We get better follow-up on hits for better reward. Shulk gets a grab in speed and gets less than Ike's standard 19 damage bnb that lasts till 120 depending on rage and opponent. Shulk gets little to no true follow-ups and even if he did Monado means he gets less reward or has higher risk doing so. His cqc options are bad. Frame 5 mediocre jab and frame 10+ tilts are horrendous for neutral. This is like Palutena except she gets actual throw combos and invincible dash attack + back air. Which is a lot more than what Shulk gets.

 

[Vyrnx]

She's like the basis of your argument, but you fail to realize that she's one of THE worst characters you could base it on. She isn't bad because she's designed for FFA. She's bad because she's poorly designed, the same way Zelda is poorly designed.

Okay, I don't care about FFA at all but I do wanna address the, "This character is poorly designed, so she/he is bad," thing.
A character isn't necessarily bad just because they're poorly designed. Little Mac may have the overall worst design because of super armor smashes. He isn't necessarily bad. Pre patch Luigi and Diddy were both horribly designed, and they obviously weren't bad. Zelda is poorly designed, and the end result for her is different. She has nothing to work with except up b.

Samus isn't poorly designed. The design intent behind her is surprisingly in depth. There was clearly a lot of thought put into her. The heavyweight combo character with emphasis on tech chases. Her original design gave her a crazy punish game, since there was no way to air dodge after missed tech. She could do crazy stuff, dair to dair to CS, utilt to dair to CS. Many of her moves did more damage and knock back. I wouldn't be surprised if some of her weird hitbox issues are remnants of superior pre release hitboxes.

Samus was nerfed before the game came out, but the fact that there was a lot of thought behind her design is still there. Poor design execution, yes, but poor design, no. Samus is a well designed character. It makes me sad that they didn't follow through as well as they could have.

 

[Illuminose]

i mean hey, dabuz hasn't been winning major tournaments recently. guess rosalina can't be top 5.

do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? and this is essentially what you're applying to pikachu.

 

[Zannabluke]

dabuz hasn't recently won anything major because his last tournament was ktar during the first days of november where he placed 2nd
before that, he went to big house where he placed 3rd

 

[Nu~]

i mean hey, dabuz hasn't been winning major tournaments recently. guess rosalina can't be top 5.

do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? and this is essentially what you're applying to pikachu.

No one is saying this. Trifroze, Amadeus9, and others have given legitimate reasons as to why pikachu hasn't won anything lately.

Meanwhile, you and and a few others are using every strawman possible to prove your point.

Edit: Not only that, but you haven't given any real reasons as to why pikachu wins all these matchups.

 

[meleebrawler]

I sense an unusual amount of hostility whenever someone brings up Shulk and what he can do in this thread. We get that he's not very good, his frame data's poor and that Ike can do a lot of the things he can but more consistently, but we don't need to have that shoved in our faces every time he's brought up.

 

[Ffamran]

Heh, Roy's Flare Blade is just like Ganondorf's Up Smash, except much weaker uncharged and can't really be used for anti-airing. Speed of a slow Smash, but recovery of a jab. As nooby as it is for people to bait with it, Flare Blade's low recovery is just another trick for Roy just as Ganondorf's Up Smash is.

Also, unsurprisingly, Sheik and ZSS's Up Specials have 20 and 26 frames of landing lag respectively. Couldn't find Sheik's Bouncing Fish landing lag, but ZSS's landing lag from an input Flip Kick is 35, so Bouncing Fish's probably is around 30 frames. It's not really coincidental that these two have very similar mobility, attributes, and even frame data for certain moves. ZSS might be a bit slower for some attacks and Sheik is weaker in terms of damage and knockback per hit, but they're built as high speed, high reward, low recovery/lag, and at times, low risk fighters.

Maybe they're a bit over-tuned compared to everyone else, especially considering the trend of 30 frames of landing lag for almost all Up Specials. Some outliers being Ryu's Shoryuken at 18 regular and 12 input, Falco's Fire Bird at 19, and Fox's Fire Fox and Wario's Corkscrew at 20. For teleports, Meta Knight's Dimensional Cape, Mewtwo's Teleport, and Zelda's Farore's Wind all have 30 frames of landing while Palutena's Warp has 22, and Sheik has 20. Note how the only other low landing teleport has no hitbox, Palutena's, and even Mewtwo's follows the 30 frames of landing trend. Just some observations to ponder.

 

[Wintermelon43]

dabuz hasn't recently won anything major because his last tournament was ktar during the first days of november where he placed 2nd
before that, he went to big house where he placed 3rd

And Esam got 2nd at Tipped Off and 3rd at MLG

 

[LightLV]

Okay, I don't care about FFA at all but I do wanna address the, "This character is poorly designed, so she/he is bad," thing.
A character isn't necessarily bad just because they're poorly designed. Little Mac may have the overall worst design because of super armor smashes. He isn't necessarily bad. Pre patch Luigi and Diddy were both horribly designed, and they obviously weren't bad. Zelda is poorly designed, and the end result for her is different. She has nothing to work with except up b.

Samus isn't poorly designed. The design intent behind her is surprisingly in depth. There was clearly a lot of thought put into her. The heavyweight combo character with emphasis on tech chases. Her original design gave her a crazy punish game, since there was no way to air dodge after missed tech. She could do crazy stuff, dair to dair to CS, utilt to dair to CS. Many of her moves did more damage and knock back. I wouldn't be surprised if some of her weird hitbox issues are remnants of superior pre release hitboxes.

Samus was nerfed before the game came out, but the fact that there was a lot of thought behind her design is still there. Poor design execution, yes, but poor design, no. Samus is a well designed character. It makes me sad that they didn't follow through as well as they could have.

Poorly designed was probably a bad way to describe the character, poorly executed is a better term. The point i'm making in the context of Lancer's case though is that the reason the character is bad is very likely to have little to do with whether or not they think she's good in FFA and more to do with the Smash balance team not understanding why competitive players consider her very bad.

Little Mac is more the result of balancing by extremes, where he's completely oppressive in one area but terrible in another. Many fighting games typically get this wrong by overcompensating for their strengths with their nerfs (frequently, these are heavyweight/grappler characters) and little mac is just one of those characters where his bad points are so bad they can literally render him useless on any stage with platforms. To be fair though, this style of character straddles the line between unfair and useless pretty frequently, and i guess most developers would rather it be the latter? I dunno, anyone's guess. This actually CAN happen in FFA / teams though, especially online where Team Attack is off and Little Mac is free to unleash his bull**** with impunity, which is why he got nerfed.

Samus is the result of alot of things, not only her lacking hitboxes, but the mechanics of the game have shifted in a way that just inherently nerfs her playstyle (removal of autocancel specials, shieldlag nerfs, shield regen buffs, evasion buffs, ect ect) Zelda is the same way, she has no aerials and even her most powerful ones are STILL generally unsafe on block even when sweetspotted, just putting a gaping hole in her neutral.

Zelda is closer to overall poorly designed than Samus is, and she's ALSO a strong case for her balancing clearly being more focused on modes like FFA/Teams instead of 1v1. Which is really the only way you could justify the state of Dins Fire and her abysmal down B. The changes to teleport mechanics also crapped all over her neutral options as well. She's just overall really bad. ( But conflating that to the whole roster is asinine.)

 

[Zannabluke]

And Esam got 2nd at Tipped Off and 3rd at MLG

he placed 4th at MLG, 3rd was dj jack
still dabuz has overall higher placings than esam

 

[Mario766]

Shulk mains keep saying info like 'great grab reward at low percents' but never show it or give any data on it. What is this reward when nothing true combos. I wouldn't attack this as harsh if they didn't give blatantly incorrect data in their arguments like Roy mains trying to say Roy is high tier *lol*

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Edit: Not only that, but you haven't given any real reasons as to why pikachu wins all these matchups.

To be fair, neither has @Horseketchup (or myself at that), but he still makes very convincing points.

 

[Wintermelon43]

he placed 4th at MLG, 3rd was dj jack
still dabuz has overall higher placings than esam

Scatt got 4th.....

Edit:WAIT NO IT ISN'T I DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT ANYMORE. THE ONE WITH NAIRO'S DR. MARIO IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT

 

[Zannabluke]

Scatt got 4th.....

whops, i confused MLG with MVG lol

 

[Ffamran]

Something I forgot! If you consider Sonic's air Spring Jump as a projectile, then he has the lowest recovery at 14 frames followed by Olimar's Pikmin Toss at 15, Greninja's air Water Shuriken, Link's Gale Boomerang, and Toon Link's Boomerang at 18, the Pits' air Palutena's/Silver Bow at 20, Toon Link's Hero's Bow at 23, ROB's Laser and Zelda's Din's Fire at 24 - surprising, ain't it? -, Greninja's ground Water Shuriken, Mega Man's Crash Bomber, Mewtwo's Shadow Ball, Ness's PK Flash and at the earliest with PKT1 at 25, Luigi's Fireball, Lucas's PK Freeze, and Mega Man's Metal Saw, Ftilt, and Nair at 26, ZSS's Stun Gun at 27, Fox's Blaster, Link's Hero's Bow, and Mega Man's jab at 28, Duck Hunt's Trick Shot at 29, and Diddy's Peanut Popgun at 30 before projectiles head over the +30 range. The first notable +30 recovery projectile would be Robin's Thunder at 31.

Also, for those of you curious, Lucas's PK Magnet only has 17 recovery frames and Ness's has 11. Next fastest absorb/reflect is (Dr.) Mario's Cape/Sheet at 21, Mewtwo's Confusion at 29, and Fox's Reflector at 32. Explains why Lucas can use PK Magnet to move around and so liberally compared to other absorbs and reflects.

 

[Illuminose]

No one is saying this. Trifroze, Amadeus9, and others have given legitimate reasons as to why pikachu hasn't won anything lately.

Meanwhile, you and and a few others are using every strawman possible to prove your point.

Edit: Not only that, but you haven't given any real reasons as to why pikachu wins all these matchups.

I thought Pikachu beating Zero Suit solidly was commonly accepted knowledge, but I guess it isn't. Evidence: when they played Zero Suit vs Pikachu, ESAM kind of wrecked Nairo. So much that Nairo didn't even TRY Zero Suit vs Pikachu when they played at MLG. The simple logic is that Zero Suit struggles vs short characters, which I hope is well-understood enough that I don't need to explain. The thing that really clinches it though is that Zero Suit's out-of-shield is not that great, so she will struggle vs Quick Attack pressure, which Pikachu can really abuse. The matchup is like 60:40 in Pikachu's favor or maybe even a little bit more.

Pikachu vs Diddy Kong is pretty solidly in Pikachu's favor as well. This sentiment has been expressed by top Diddy Kong players like ZeRo and Angel, and for good reason. Diddy lacks a good answer to Quick Attack, gets edgeguarded hard by Pikachu, and will lose in the overall damage racking/punish game. Pikachu gets more out grabs and other combo starters he has than anything Diddy Kong gets, enabling him to convert harder.

Pikachu kind of bops Falcon. It's primarily centered around two areas: the combo game and the edgeguard game. Pikachu's combo game is really good; he'll convert really hard on Falcon and juggle with up airs. The edgeguard is free, that's just how good Pikachu's edgeguard game is. Also, Pikachu's size can make him difficult to pin down for Falcon, making things like nairs and falling up airs less effective from Falcon.

Pikachu vs Rosalina is decently close and Dabuz has won it before (him and ESAM are 1-1), but the general vibe I get of the matchup is that it's a slight advantage for Pikachu. Pikachu has a really solid pressure game that is difficult for Rosalina to deal with. Options like dair, dash attack, and fsmash to get rid of Luma among other things mean that Luma isn't actually a big issue for him. Rosa is a big body to combo, and Pikachu can get so much damage off-stage or even kill with the combination of nairs and thunder walls. The reason it isn't that bad for Rosalina is that she can outrange and outspace Pikachu if she plays really really smart and defensive, but it's definitely in Pikachu's favor.

 

[David Viran]

I thought Pikachu beating Zero Suit solidly was commonly accepted knowledge, but I guess it isn't. Evidence: when they played Zero Suit vs Pikachu, ESAM kind of wrecked Nairo. So much that Nairo didn't even TRY Zero Suit vs Pikachu when they played at MLG. The simple logic is that Zero Suit struggles vs short characters, which I hope is well-understood enough that I don't need to explain. The thing that really clinches it though is that Zero Suit's out-of-shield is not that great, so she will struggle vs Quick Attack pressure, which Pikachu can really abuse. The matchup is like 60:40 in Pikachu's favor or maybe even a little bit more.

Define destroyed. IIRC both sets went to game 5 at smashcon and nairo literally came inches away from taking that first set with a spike in a MU that esam clearly has tons more expierience in. Nairo had more of a reason to go doc at MLG not because of the MU being bad but because esam has a huge advantage in just knowing it better.

 

[Amadeus9]

Also, I thought we were past judging whole matchups over single sets.

 

[Mario766]

Oh look, speak of the devil. One of the people who likes Shulk posted a Shulk analysis guide. I'm talking about Zero. The only problem is his analysis is basically a very generic guide on how to handle things and what is decent in situations.

"Use speed to safely play neutral and get a grab, put them off-stage then kill them."

Literally what he said in one point of the video. The only problem is that there's nothing on HOW to play the neutral. Shulk is fast with speed, yes, but now he gets SUPER low reward, and doesn't get follow-ups still off grabs. So he gets stage control...okay? His advantage state isn't good enough for this to be good. Speed puts your grab reward down to 5.6, plus one of the worst pummel DPS in the game, so your grab reward is one of, if not the worst in the game. Jump gives you normal DPS, but now you're taking 22 percent extra damage. Any 20 damage combo now deals 24.4. This gets even compounded if the character has a longer combo. 30? 36.6. Both of his main ways to increase his mobility to supplement his neutral either skew his risk/reward heavily against him. Then there's buster. This is the end all be all for risk taking. You're trying to put a character with abysmal frame data to out-space characters with no sub-par mobility. That's...hard. The risk/reward is really good now, with +40 percent and safer on shield and you only take 13 percent, but your mobility means you get lamed out HARD.

What ISN'T talked about...is follow-ups and combos. I wonder why there isn't anything talked about...


I wonder.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh look, speak of the devil. One of the people who likes Shulk posted a Shulk analysis guide. I'm talking about Zero. The only problem is his analysis is basically a very generic guide on how to handle things and what is decent in situations.

"Use speed to safely play neutral and get a grab, put them off-stage then kill them."

Literally what he said in one point of the video. The only problem is that there's nothing on HOW to play the neutral. Shulk is fast with speed, yes, but now he gets SUPER low reward, and doesn't get follow-ups still off grabs. So he gets stage control...okay? His advantage state isn't good enough for this to be good. Speed puts your grab reward down to 5.6, plus one of the worst pummel DPS in the game, so your grab reward is one of, if not the worst in the game. Jump gives you normal DPS, but now you're taking 22 percent extra damage. Any 20 damage combo now deals 24.4. This gets even compounded if the character has a longer combo. 30? 36.6. Both of his main ways to increase his mobility to supplement his neutral either skew his risk/reward heavily against him. Then there's buster. This is the end all be all for risk taking. You're trying to put a character with abysmal frame data to out-space characters with no sub-par mobility. That's...hard. The risk/reward is really good now, with +40 percent and safer on shield and you only take 13 percent, but your mobility means you get lamed out HARD.

What ISN'T talked about...is follow-ups and combos. I wonder why there isn't anything talked about...


I wonder.

To be fair Zero's analysis are pretty lacking or outright wrong at times. Like, when he talked about Greninja he said he didn't have a good recovery and also didn't have very good mobility, from what I remember.

I don't think Zero knows enough about Shulk in order to be a credible source for things like this.