Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Trifroze]

I thought Pikachu beating Zero Suit solidly was commonly accepted knowledge, but I guess it isn't. Evidence: when they played Zero Suit vs Pikachu, ESAM kind of wrecked Nairo. So much that Nairo didn't even TRY Zero Suit vs Pikachu when they played at MLG. The simple logic is that Zero Suit struggles vs short characters, which I hope is well-understood enough that I don't need to explain. The thing that really clinches it though is that Zero Suit's out-of-shield is not that great, so she will struggle vs Quick Attack pressure, which Pikachu can really abuse. The matchup is like 60:40 in Pikachu's favor or maybe even a little bit more.

It's common knowledge that ZSS' neutral is awkward and hindered vs short characters, but it should also be common knowledge that ZSS decimates lightweight characters with her bnb. Pikachu has a particularly large tumble hurtbox as well because of his tail.

Nickriddle almost beat Esam at MLG if you want to refer to results. It was literally as close as it can be, if flip kick connected from a few pixels further away that would've been it, but it didn't so ZSS didn't get the meteor hitbox, and even then the red sparks showed up so it was a matter of a few percents.

Pikachu probably beats ZSS just because the neutral game is pretty considerably skewed in Pikachu's favor due to character specific attributes, but ZSS' good disadvantage avoids one of Pikachu's main strengths for a large part. Pikachu is a heavy commitment character as well and doesn't want to get grabbed or out of shield up b'd.

I think this matchup is just really hard, but not necessarily bad. There's a difference, since a bad matchup is something where you lack options and/or reward compared to the opponent, but a hard matchup can still be tied or even advantageous. A hard matchup, by itself, only means that while you can have equal tools and reward to the opposing character, it's tough to utilize your tools because they require precise timing and spacing. ZSS aerials are one such thing vs short characters and animations.

 

[meleebrawler]

Heh, Roy's Flare Blade is just like Ganondorf's Up Smash, except much weaker uncharged and can't really be used for anti-airing. Speed of a slow Smash, but recovery of a jab. As nooby as it is for people to bait with it, Flare Blade's low recovery is just another trick for Roy just as Ganondorf's Up Smash is.

But it can be used in the air, and thus edgeguarding.

 

[Mario766]

Flare Blade would be super good if the hitbox was better. Though for edgeguarding it's rather pointless because it doesn't hit below the stage.

 

[UberMadman]

But it can be used in the air, and thus edgeguarding.

^ This is the important thing about Roy's Forward Smash that people don't realize. It's like is Meta Knight's F-Smash had a gigantic arching hitbox and could be used mid-air, and therefore while in motion. It would be a legitimately broken move if it wasn't on a character that sank like a rock, but that doesn't stop it for being great for edgeguards.

Flare Blade would be super good if the hitbox was better. Though for edgeguarding it's rather pointless because it doesn't hit below the stage.

Bruh

 

[Trifroze]

You guys are all screwed! This make zss even more broken then ever thought before! Just wait until I can hit you with the sweet spot of a slow smash attack out of neutral at 0% on a specific part of the stage facing the correct way with no rage and on a specific character and then perform the sequence pretty accurately >:] .. Hope they don't sdi!

It's super cool but we have been down B spiking people from down smash for a long time. Rage is going to make this a beast to master and adapt too. I'd love to see people actually do the full combo. Sounds hype

SDI and DI definitely aren't a thing in this one, I spent around 50 hours testing so I'm pretty sure. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The full combo is going to be rare, but there are many ways to do shorter variations in many different situations and parts of the stage at different percents too. Requires massive situational awareness though. Hopefully this'll be seen from time to time in some way, I know I'll be subtly fishing for it at the tournaments I go to.

 

[Mario766]

I mean being used on stage. Even so, the move has a rather weird hitbox that doesn't even follow the fire.

Though Roy is kind of being awkward because he's literally using the Sword of Seals as a ****ing dagger.

 

[Nobie]

This isn't meant to start an argument about Mii Customs (remember the beginning of this thread!), but has anyone seen/developed any solid strategies or guides for 1111 Miis?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Question: Did you guys already talk about this Mewtwo "infinite" at some point in the thread?

 

[meleebrawler]

Question: Did you guys already talk about this Mewtwo infinite at some point in the thread?

Well that went quick...

 

[Mario766]

...


Here we go again

 

[Smog Frog]

i dont think thats an infinite. jab afaik doesnt combo into utilt. if it did he'd be a super good character because then he'd have guaranteed kill setups at like 90% with no rage.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Question: Did you guys already talk about this Mewtwo infinite at some point in the thread?

What characters does that work on? Seems interesting. M2's Jab1 is pretty good at setting up combos.

 

[wedl!!]

Can you prove this works on like.. a human first?

 

[Trifroze]

Sheik can shield before utilt when she lands from the jab, had training mode up so I tried.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah in general Mewtwo shouldn't try any fancy followups from jab at low percents against fastfallers, just go for the multihit.

 

[RonNewcomb]

They're kicking off with Brawl in half an hour. They don't have an exact stream schedule but I've been chatting with the TO and he said smash 4 should be starting around 4-5pm Adelaide time which is 10:30+ GMT. I hope that helps!

The tournament is SUPER stacked so you absolutely cannot sleep on anyone. A lot of Australian players also use characters you don't see very often. For example, we have two great Bowser players, a Palutena, a Wii Fit, a GnW, a Robin, a Dedede, a Bowser Jr., a Mega Man, a couple of Little Macs and even a Link who should/could all make it to top 32.

And the crew battle I mentioned in the article features some of the best talent in the country in a 5v5 format. For LHC we have M, Earl, Nikes, Googers and Waveguider and for KH we have Atyeo, Xettman, Kaion (****ashi), Rhyno and Jezmo. Should be super hype so tune in for that on Sunday!

You are a gentleman and a scholar, good sir.

 

[Y2Kay]

Question: Did you guys already talk about this Mewtwo "infinite" at some point in the thread?

Mewtwo is a confirmed top tier character guys! I knew it all along!

 

[Dakpo]

SDI and DI definitely aren't a thing in this one, I spent around 50 hours testing so I'm pretty sure. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The full combo is going to be rare, but there are many ways to do shorter variations in many different situations and parts of the stage at different percents too. Requires massive situational awareness though. Hopefully this'll be seen from time to time in some way, I know I'll be subtly fishing for it at the tournaments I go to.

You spent 50 hours testing? YOU BETTER BE THE FIRST TO LAND THIS IN TOURNAMENT LOL
I think the short variations of the combo and the sour spot combos are the most potent pieces of info from that video. I'll be trying to learn this stuff too, but it makes me laugh when people think that out of all of her tools, THIS is whats going to make her broken

 

[Trifroze]

You spent 50 hours testing? YOU BETTER BE THE FIRST TO LAND THIS IN TOURNAMENT LOL
I think the short variations of the combo and the sour spot combos are the most potent pieces of info from that video. I'll be trying to learn this stuff too, but it makes me laugh when people think that out of all of her tools, THIS is whats going to make her broken

Yeah it's definitely a massive overreaction, but it'll quiet down with time. On the other hand I'm surprised how many people still call boost kick broken, when the grounded one can be survived to 120%+ from the middle of the stage, is unreliable as hell in many matchups, and when the bnb combo only really kills people if they DI towards offstage from dthrow and the up airs, or towards platforms, effectively killing themselves. Might cover that next and hope it has an impact.

Rage up b off the top is super jank though and I wouldn't have a problem with that going away, would fix connecting problems on the grounded version too.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Someone did a research on Ryu's Tatsumaki and its interactions with projectiles: https://youtu.be/txHNUo_HTK8. Source thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ryu-tatsumaki-vs-projectiles-smash-4-wii-u.424540/.

Maybe I'm just a slowpoke, but if this wasn't common knowledge... Pretty sure Meta Knight's Mach Tornado and Drill Rush is also capable of this, right? Not exactly a subtle approach to projectiles, but given the right opportunity, Ryu could punish projectiles like no tomorrow.

So much for Link having a good MU v. Ryu. Tatsu will still hit ppl after negating the projectile, and Link is tall enough and laggy enough to get clipped.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I don't mean to sidetrack the thread or anything of the sort but the stream has started over at http://www.twitch.tv/JettSmash

 

[AnEventHorizon]

So much for Link having a good MU v. Ryu. Tatsu will still hit ppl after negating the projectile, and Link is tall enough and laggy enough to get clipped.

You'll notice that it didn't show it stopping bombs, zair, or an angled boomerang. Link's also not going to use arrows onstage that much. I wouldnt say it changes much with Link.

 

[Ffamran]

But it can be used in the air, and thus edgeguarding.

I mean being used on stage. Even so, the move has a rather weird hitbox that doesn't even follow the fire.

Though Roy is kind of being awkward because he's literally using the Sword of Seals as a ****ing dagger.

Way back when Roy was just released, someone on the Roy boards said Roy's Flare Blade in Smash 4 doesn't involve his sword at all unlike in Melee when I asked if Roy could edge-guard with Flare Blade like in Melee. I don't know if this was confirmed or not since it's not really talked about, but considering that I don't recall having seen anyone get hit high by Flare Blade in Smash 4 unlike in Melee, I'm going to assume it's true. This means the hitbox is just the explosion unlike in Melee and Ike's Eruption where the sword has a hitbox. Why the change? I have no idea. It's like asking why Mewtwo's Shadow Ball doesn't have a melee hitbox anymore. Could chalk it up as change for the sake of change. So, when I said Roy's Flare Blade can't be used for anti-airing, it's because of the lack of a sword hitbox. I mean, you could hit someone with Flare Blade in the air or to punish a weird empty hop/jump, but that lack of a sword hitbox makes it much harder. Hell, even Ike has an easier time since Eruption's literally a mini, blue volcano.

 

[L9999]

Way back when Roy was just released, someone on the Roy boards said Roy's Flare Blade in Smash 4 doesn't involve his sword at all unlike in Melee when I asked if Roy could edge-guard with Flare Blade like in Melee. I don't know if this was confirmed or not since it's not really talked about, but considering that I don't recall having seen anyone get hit high by Flare Blade in Smash 4 unlike in Melee, I'm going to assume it's true. This means the hitbox is just the explosion unlike in Melee and Ike's Eruption where the sword has a hitbox. Why the change? I have no idea. It's like asking why Mewtwo's Shadow Ball doesn't have a melee hitbox anymore. Could chalk it up as change for the sake of change. So, when I said Roy's Flare Blade can't be used for anti-airing, it's because of the lack of a sword hitbox. I mean, you could hit someone with Flare Blade in the air or to punish a weird empty hop/jump, but that lack of a sword hitbox makes it much harder. Hell, even Ike has an easier time since Eruption's literally a mini, blue volcano.

Flare Blade is really misleading. Am I crazy, or Smash 4 really has a problem with hitboxes/hurtboxes/animations? Most people know Mewtwo, Marth and Samus have bad animations/hitboxes, Samus and Marcina (I think) extend their hurtbox really far for no reason, some frames of attacks don't have hitboxes even if they seemed they should (PK Fire on point blank, Mewtwo's Side Smash at point blank, Jiggly's Bair, most of Pit's stuff (because the animation-hitbox startup synchrony is bad) and characters with crappy grab range) and many more ******** stuff. Whenever I pick Brawl and play it, I throw out attacks and expect them to hit and they hit, without fearing they might whiff. In Smash 4, I throw an attack and it misses completely and it doesn't look like it. And with Brawl's hitboxes, moves feel more flexible. In Smash 4 they feel restricted. For example, in Brawl Ness' Bair has some crazy hitboxes and it hits on the front, in Smash 4, it hits backwards and backwards only. Anyone else has felt this? Or I'm the only crazy one?

 

[Mario766]

Edit**

Misunderstood the statement

 

[Rizen]

So much for Link having a good MU v. Ryu. Tatsu will still hit ppl after negating the projectile, and Link is tall enough and laggy enough to get clipped.

This was known when factoring things in the MU. Link never had a good Ryu MU but it's even. Like AnEventHorizon said, Link has ways to deal with it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Ghostbone just gave a solid demonstration of the MK vs. Rosalina matchup. I'm sure most mains of those characters are aware of it, but I hadn't thought about it that much myself.

 

[Amadeus9]

Ghostbone just gave a solid demonstration of the MK vs. Rosalina matchup. I'm sure most mains of those characters are aware of it, but I hadn't thought about it that much myself.

What do you mean? Where, exactly?

 

[Thinkaman]

SXC2015 top 32 is happening now. (stream)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

ZeRo's analyses have significantly improved in quality ever since he started consulting top players of the specific character he is covering. They are much more informative and accurate about the characters strengths and weaknesses than they were before. They aren't perfect, but I don't think they can be considered bad anymore.

I disagree. His most recent Roy video looked rushed and plain inaccurate.

 

[|RK|]

I disagree. His most recent Roy video looked rushed and plain inaccurate.

His notes are directly from Static Manny aka Oni Hero, so.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

His notes are directly from Static Manny aka Oni Hero, so.

Isn't Sethlon better than them both?

 

[|RK|]

Isn't Sethlon better than them both?

I keep hearing that Sethlon is the best Roy, but isn't a top level player yet. Looking at the latter metric, Oni has the better results at top level play (albeit with Sonic).

So I guess it's a little iffy on who's a better contact? Or maybe ZeRo just doesn't know/couldn't reach Sethlon.

 

[Nobie]

I think part of the reason ZeRo's Roy video turned out that way is because of Static Manny and his preferred play style. If he made a Sonic video based on Manny's advice, you'd probably hear a lot of similar things ("Sonic/Roy is a defensive character").

Another thing is that ZeRo's videos are meant to introduce a character to viewers, give them a sense of how the character works without delving too deeply in. I imagine Shulk's follow-ups are less guaranteed combos and more about feeling out the opponent's actions over the course of a match. IS that something that can be taught in a 10-minute video?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shulk's follow-ups are not guaranteed in that specific case Zero is referring to. He does have a really good follow-up game and advantaged state in general. Like I said earlier, Zero's analysis on Shulk is really solid - there aren't any blatantly false claims and he really nailed the general game plan for Shulk. It's quite obvious that he's concerned himself with the character a lot more than most of the forum warriors who just look at his frame data and insta-dump him into trash tier without looking beyond that.

Kinda like Mewtwo, who while [like Shulk] not being a good character is not the bottom 5 trash he was a long time thought to be. His low weight is a weakness that holds him back and is part of the reason he's unviable. But he still has a fair number of strengths that set him apart from the really bad characters. I see Shulk in very much the same boat.

 

[Nobie]

By the way, AmSa is currently streaming a practice session with Mr. II, a Robin main. They seem to be trading games a lot, so it might be good studying for both Greninja and Robin players.

http://www.twitch.tv/amsayoshi

 

[Ghostbone]

Australia is consistently one of my favorite regions to watch. I'm excited for this event, and encourage everyone to check it out this weekend.

Woo Australia!

SXC2015 top 32 is happening now. (stream)

Top 8 (all Bo5 too) is going to be streamed starting 10:30 PM EST, so far in winners we have Yoshi, Fox, Wii Fit trainer and my Sheik/MK
Losers has ZSS, Rosa, Diddy and Palutena
So woo character diversity, everyone should check it out :D

I believe it will be on this stream.

 

[meleebrawler]

Shulk's follow-ups are not guaranteed in that specific case Zero is referring to. He does have a really good follow-up game and advantaged state in general. Like I said earlier, Zero's analysis on Shulk is really solid - there aren't any blatantly false claims and he really nailed the general game plan for Shulk. It's quite obvious that he's concerned himself with the character a lot more than most of the forum warriors who just look at his frame data and insta-dump him into trash tier without looking beyond that.

Kinda like Mewtwo, who while [like Shulk] not being a good character is not the bottom 5 trash he was a long time thought to be. His low weight is a weakness that holds him back and is part of the reason he's unviable. But he still has a fair number of strengths that set him apart from the really bad characters. I see Shulk in very much the same boat.

It was the same story in Melee too, everybody thought he was easily one of the worst in the game, until Mew2King showed them that, while he's still not good there were things he could do to allow him to compete.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It was the same story in Melee too, everybody thought he was easily one of the worst in the game, until Mew2King showed them that, while he's still not good there were things he could do to allow him to compete.

I thought that was Taj.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It was the same story in Melee too, everybody thought he was easily one of the worst in the game, until Mew2King showed them that, while he's still not good there were things he could do to allow him to compete.

Taj did that bro, specifically with the shadow claw 2 vid and stuff.