Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Ffamran]

I swear I've seen Ganon mains complaining about how literally any hurtboxes will stop Side-B.

Do you mean hitboxes since technically, if he grabs someone... Nitpicking!

It's very hard to get grabbed by side-b if you time your attack correctly.

The grab box isn't at the hand, so if you swing for the hand you'll always beat it.

Meanwhile, head intangible Wario Bite. Ah, must be great to be butterfingers Bowser and Ganondorf. The times when you use Flame Choke, but because the last active frame ends before Ganondorf stops moving, so his hand is still reaching, but there's no active frame left...

 

[MARTH_IS_BAE]

I swear I've seen Ganon mains complaining about how literally any hurtboxes will stop Side-B.

Yeah, no. Robin's recovery is bad, but not second worst, considering Levin aerial, the spike, and it having a decent distance.

It's not second worst, shouldn't have thrown that in there. I do think, though that Robin's recovery is at least sixth or seventh worst. Robin does have the strongest, hardest to challenge aerials in the game, and they can occasionally help out. But Robin doesn't have a very big window to throw aerials because of their FAFs, and most people will just keep Robin from grabbing the ledge by forcing an air dodge or an aerial, either way preventing a ledge grab. Robin can't recover horizontally, but eventually will have to recover with up b.

Robin's up b is so booty. A person going for the edge guard will not be exposed to the spike. It has a narrow range to hit and the person would have to be below Robin. It IS the easiest up b to react to, with no hit box, it is exceptionally easy to hit Robin out of her up b. All people have to do is try.

But I agree Robin's aerials are enough to merit at least better than many I listed.

 

[Thinkaman]

In my experience, there is a common element in all the most contentious debates: Both sides are actually having separate arguments, and end up both perpectually talking down to each other as a result.

For example, the hottest argument in America for the last 30 years has been abortion. One side is condescendingly telling the other that killing babies is bad, and the other is condescendingly explaining that women should have the right to determine their own healthcare. Everyone shows up every day, makes the same arguments, and walks away feeling right + hating the other side a bit more. Both of their actual arguments are incidental to the overarching meta-issue that they are having two entirely separate arguments.

I feel like this is bound to happen with comparison of recoveries.

How can you measure how good a recovery is? Well, there's not just one scale. There's not even two or three. There are a dozen questions we could ask:

• Who can recovery the most distance horizontally?
• Who can recover the most distance vertically?
• Who can recover the most distance diagonally?
• Who can best defend against a Sheik fair?
• Who can best defend against a Ganon uair? Or dair?
• Who can best defend against Pit arrows?
• Who can best bypass Counters?
  
• Does this include ledge options or ledge security?
• Are Wall Jumps involved for consideration?
• [Repeat all of the above with 'without their double jump'.]

It's a complicated question with no common answers. Even Villager, who is king of many of these, will get destroyed by a Mario Cape due to the way his up-b controls. Some characters dread a Sheik fair off-stage, while others shrug. Some characters can go under the stage. Others don't have to.

Ultimately, I'm super skeptical something as multi-faceted and situational as recoveries can be ranked. Comparisons are difficult, but ranking is pretty much futile. It's almost as complex as making a tier list, except without hard results data to triangulate with.

 

[FullMoon]

In my experience, there is a common element in all the most contentious debates: Both sides are actually having separate arguments, and end up both perpectually talking down to each other as a result.

For example, the hottest argument in America for the last 30 years has been abortion. One side is condescendingly telling the other that killing babies is bad, and the other is condescendingly explaining that women should have the right to determine their own healthcare. Everyone shows up every day, makes the same arguments, and walks away feeling right + hating the other side a bit more. Both of their actual arguments are incidental to the overarching meta-issue that they are having two entirely separate arguments.

I feel like this is bound to happen with comparison of recoveries.

How can you measure how good a recovery is? Well, there's not just one scale. There's not even two or three. There are a dozen questions we could ask:

• Who can recovery the most distance horizontally?
• Who can recover the most distance vertically?
• Who can recover the most distance diagonally?
• Who can best defend against a Sheik fair?
• Who can best defend against a Ganon uair? Or dair?
• Who can best defend against Pit arrows?
• Who can best bypass Counters?
  
• Does this include ledge options or ledge security?
• Are Wall Jumps involved for consideration?
• [Repeat all of the above with 'without their double jump'.]

It's a complicated question with no common answers. Even Villager, who is king of many of these, will get destroyed by a Mario Cape due to the way his up-b controls. Some characters dread a Sheik fair off-stage, while others shrug. Some characters can go under the stage. Others don't have to.

Ultimately, I'm super skeptical something as multi-faceted and situational as recoveries can be ranked. Comparisons are difficult, but ranking is pretty much futile. It's almost as complex as making a tier list, except without hard results data to triangulate with.

Another question would be who can best deal with Greninja's Hydro Pump because that one can mess up even some of the best recoveries ()

Of course, most people won't be fighting Greninja but still lol.

 

[Ffamran]

It's a complicated question with no common answers. Even Villager, who is king of many of these, will get destroyed by a Mario Cape due to the way his up-b controls. Some characters dread a Sheik fair off-stage, while others shrug. Some characters can go under the stage. Others don't have to.

Wait... Can't Villager just turn around? 'Cause right now, I'm imagining Villager just flipping upside down defying all laws of physics and nose-diving downwards with no hope of survival unless Mario had some ounce of mercy in his evil heart and used his Cloak of Villainy about a foot above the ledge.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait... Can't Villager just turn around? 'Cause right now, I'm imagining Villager just flipping upside down defying all laws of physics and nose-diving downwards with no hope of survival unless Mario had some ounce of mercy in his evil heart and used his Cloak of Villainy about a foot above the ledge.

Villager up-b has good max speed but poor acceleration, so it takes a lot of time to reverse Mario flipping your speed around. Additionally, the Cape will pop one of the balloons, putting a critical damper on all the numbers involved.

Meanwhile, anyone with multiple double jumps simple does not give a crap about cape.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So what if we were to have debates on who has one of the best single moves, like Utilt for instance?( ), would a discussion like that be a more manageable one?

 

[Ffamran]

Villager up-b has good max speed but poor acceleration, so it takes a lot of time to reverse Mario flipping your speed around. Additionally, the Cape will pop one of the balloons, putting a critical damper on all the numbers involved.

Oh, thank ThinkaGod! I don't know if I would have died from disbelief or laughter if Villager had actually defied the laws of physics and flipped upside down.

This does have me thinking... Does any sort of damage pop a balloon? Or does a move have to have some knockback to "apply pressure" and pop them? I ask this since I believe that patch 1.1.0 changed it so Fox's knockback-less, hit stun-less, damage-only Blaster affects Wii Fit Trainer's Header ball now instead of just hitting them and not doing anything. Don't know about Gordos, but I did this before if my memory isn't crap and so has a user who first asked in the patch thread a while ago.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

So what if we were to have debates on who has one of the best single moves, like Utilt for instance?(), would a discussion like that be a more manageable one?

Single moves eh? We know who has the best ( )

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So what if we were to have debates on who has one of the best single moves, like Utilt for instance?( ), would a discussion like that be a more manageable one?

That would spiral into madness very quickly...
It's also an incredibly subjective topic.

 

[Thinkaman]

So what if we were to have debates on who has one of the best single moves, like Utilt for instance?( ), would a discussion like that be a more manageable one?

"Vacuum" comparisons are listed as a "Yellow topic" in the first post. They are dangerous rabbit holes to go down, especially if you start comparing truly incomparable things like most nairs or dairs.

The best litnus test for a good discussion is "Does this inform our understanding of how matchups are played at a high level?"

 

[Rizen]

In my experience, there is a common element in all the most contentious debates: Both sides are actually having separate arguments, and end up both perpectually talking down to each other as a result.

For example, the hottest argument in America for the last 30 years has been abortion. One side is condescendingly telling the other that killing babies is bad, and the other is condescendingly explaining that women should have the right to determine their own healthcare. Everyone shows up every day, makes the same arguments, and walks away feeling right + hating the other side a bit more. Both of their actual arguments are incidental to the overarching meta-issue that they are having two entirely separate arguments.

I feel like this is bound to happen with comparison of recoveries.

How can you measure how good a recovery is? Well, there's not just one scale. There's not even two or three. There are a dozen questions we could ask:

• Who can recovery the most distance horizontally?
• Who can recover the most distance vertically?
• Who can recover the most distance diagonally?
• Who can best defend against a Sheik fair?
• Who can best defend against a Ganon uair? Or dair?
• Who can best defend against Pit arrows?
• Who can best bypass Counters?
  
• Does this include ledge options or ledge security?
• Are Wall Jumps involved for consideration?
• [Repeat all of the above with 'without their double jump'.]

It's a complicated question with no common answers. Even Villager, who is king of many of these, will get destroyed by a Mario Cape due to the way his up-b controls. Some characters dread a Sheik fair off-stage, while others shrug. Some characters can go under the stage. Others don't have to.

Ultimately, I'm super skeptical something as multi-faceted and situational as recoveries can be ranked. Comparisons are difficult, but ranking is pretty much futile. It's almost as complex as making a tier list, except without hard results data to triangulate with.

I completely disagree with all of this. The abortion thing is not for this thread but about recoveries; it's not that hard to tell what recoveries are better. I pretty much agree with the OP here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/
I can nit-pick a few but it's pretty solid within tiers. @One Tilt has the right idea.
Edit; I mean consider all factors and most recoveries are easy to rank.

 

[Thinkaman]

This does have me thinking... Does any sort of damage pop a balloon?

Fox lasers do pop balloons.

Edit: And yeah, Heavenly Light does too.

 

[Man Li Gi]

My rationale for Ganon was that a mistimed gimp would lead to
A) Ganoncide
B) Getting grabbed by up b
It's distance is surprisingly good, but he can't weave during up b, so.

You're right about Doc, I admit I fell into the, "people won't challenge me placing Doc's recovery low, " thing, when in fact he does have decent mix ups so that I wouldn't call his recovery second worst. Roy, Falcon, Robin, Ganon, and DH are all contenders. I might even say Ness tbh, I think his recovery is utter trash and people need to quit denying it.

Not directed at you @TTTTTsd, you're a good poster, but it's funny how even opinions that aren't unorthodox are argued because they come from me, and the basis for the argumentativeness is: I made myself a target because of poor word choice in describing Falcon's jab as mediocre, and the blatantly false statement that Falcon has no combos.

And because of that, a thread that already deeply rewards sheer immaturity, cheap humor and mean statements (especially the latter, why is it that mean comments get so many likes? It's just a consistent rule of Smashboards) thinks they can get away with it--and they do.

The fact of the matter is that this thread doesn't really discuss competitive viability. It's, "This person insulted my main', or, "I'm seventeen years old and I am going to prove how smart I am by disagreeing with everything for the sake of argument, and make myself look like an idiot instead."

It's why this thread is increasingly hard to digest. I can't remember the last time there was meaningful discussion, especially in the new thread, instead of, "Radical Larry uninstall (20 likes)," "you think this, lol you are an idiot (12 likes)."

I can admit my post on a Falcon sucked and I need to do my part, but it was honestly a hell of a better contribution even strewn with misinformation than any of the posts that come from people who never contribute anything to this thread, and there are a lot of you reading this right now, and they are probably the people who will get up in arms and be the first to be offended by this post.

Let me clear the air here, I look at the posts someone has before judgment is made. Radical Larry, Ikes, and Speed Boost were questionable posters that lurk the thread, but they do drop nuggets of wisdom sometimes. A2ZOMG is my favorite as he really is knowledgeable and has nonconformist ideals. The reason why peeps are having a hard time and thus "gang up" on you is simply because you make widely unsubstantiated claims backed up by things that really aren't strong enough for us grasp. I used to post a lot on this thread (and others too), but come here to see interesting and possibly meta changing discussion. Very few do that on a consistent manner, but when they do I enjoy it.

 

[LancerStaff]

I said derived moves which Dark Pit's Ftilt isn't... I really don't know why that's different just like how they decided to change Pit's rapid jab, but not Dark Pit's. It's like they can't decide if Dark Pit should be different from Pit or almost identical. At least you can say that Silver Bow doing more damage while Palutena's Arrow having more control has some bearing on their gameplay other than something like Falco's Burst Blaster just plain sucks compared to Fox's default. With normals, there's a point where moves will overlap or be worse or better in whatever situation, but Specials are just that: they're special and shouldn't be strictly worse or strictly better than another character's.

For the most part Dark Pit can't really do jumping arrows because you can't control them much... So Pit can spend the 20 frames or so he'd normally save charging so that makes the already minute difference in damage smaller.

I mean, we already have tons of specials that are just upgrades of other's. Roy's Fspecial that links (mostly?) properly compared to Marth's for example.

The amount of certainty you give your argument just for the sake of giving some merit to Smash's terrible balancing issues is just...it's stupid. I dont know how else to say it, really. I'm sorry.

I don't think the competitive community is out of touch with anything, im sure we know how small of a percentage we are. I'm nearly positive Sakurai himself is, though, if the extreme desperation of his balancing decisions simply to avoid a 2% label are anything to go by. What YOU'RE expressing though is really closer to delusion.

Really now, are the insults helping your argument? People stopped siding with you because your attitude is ****.

 

[Ghostbone]

Roy's side special is better at high %s cos it links better but worse at low %s because it does less damage than Marth's.

 

[Nu~]

To branch off into a new topic...

Which characters do you all think have either the most or least linear nuetral in sm4sh? And how much does it help/hinder their viability.

I would put and as contenders for most linear. I know it hurts G&W since the few options he does have in nuetral are only okay at best. Although, Usmash is pretty good due to its intense shield safety and invincibility, but it is still easy to see coming.

As for meta knight, it keeps him from taking over imo. DA, ftilt, and dash grab are all powerful options but considering the fact that they are pretty much all he has in nuetral, it keeps him honest in that game state. Imagine if he had a safe sh game...


Edit: As for least linear, and due to their sheer amount of options.

 

[Megamang]

Well, if we want to rank something so badly, id say ranking kill confirms is the most relevant to high level MUs.


Soft nair to BF is the kind of discovery keeping shiek growing/terrifying. Ryu blatantly has good kill confirms, yet their high hitlag and multiple hitting nature hurts them.


Apparently marios are learning a new kill confirm from landing dair, requiring a perfect pivot to execute. Greninjas dtilt to usmash requires a jump canceled smash, depending on DI, but kills really early.


Anyone with a less known main have a kill confirm we might not know about? Does m2 have any? He seems like the type.

 

[Nu~]

Well, if we want to rank something so badly, id say ranking kill confirms is the most relevant to high level MUs.


Soft nair to BF is the kind of discovery keeping shiek growing/terrifying. Ryu blatantly has good kill confirms, yet their high hitlag and multiple hitting nature hurts them.


Apparently marios are learning a new kill confirm from landing dair, requiring a perfect pivot to execute. Greninjas dtilt to usmash requires a jump canceled smash, depending on DI, but kills really early.


Anyone with a less known main have a kill confirm we might not know about? Does m2 have any? He seems like the type.

Well if you want to derail my new topic so quickly...

Has fair (which is safe on sheild if spaced)-> key/bell

He has more KC out of DITCIT, but F-air sets up the easier ones.

 

[Thinkaman]

If teching grounded spikes were removed (which they should), Zelda and DHD would benefit the most since they have SHAC dair kill confirm options at various percents, particularly on fast-fallers.

Even without their removal, teching these moves is not something we should auto-assume even at high-level. I think they are the most overlooked and underrated aspects of these two (bad) characters.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Well, if we want to rank something so badly, id say ranking kill confirms is the most relevant to high level MUs.


Soft nair to BF is the kind of discovery keeping shiek growing/terrifying. Ryu blatantly has good kill confirms, yet their high hitlag and multiple hitting nature hurts them.


Apparently marios are learning a new kill confirm from landing dair, requiring a perfect pivot to execute. Greninjas dtilt to usmash requires a jump canceled smash, depending on DI, but kills really early.


Anyone with a less known main have a kill confirm we might not know about? Does m2 have any? He seems like the type.

DK has weak Nair to Dair at the edge (utilizing the backwards falling animation when they slide off). I've only seen it done successfully off a shield break, but it's guarenteed and can kill as early as 10% depending on the opponent's fallspeed and recovery distance. It's gimmicky.

The most reliable one I know of is that Diddy has Dtilt to RAR Bair on characters that dtilt to usmash doesn't work on. At the ledge, I've killed with this as early as 100%

 

[Djent]

In a little over 90 minutes, the stream for the Umebura Niconico qualifier event will begin. The majority of Kanto's top talent, as well as some great players from elsewhere, are all in attendance. It will last into the wee hours of the morning for us Americans, but the potential game knowledge, hype, and impressive top-level competition may well make it worth staying awake for.

Spoiler: Umebura Pools

A1: G3 | Ranai
A2: G3 | Komorikiri, ♪
A3: G3 | Rain, Nga, G3 eSR | Rom
A4: G3 DNG | Nietono, G3 | Haruki
A5: G3 | Earth, G3 | El
A6: G3 | Umeki, Tsu~
A7: Nyanko, G3 SHIG | Shimitake
A8: Hayato.
A9: Songun, Yui, T
A10: Sakasaka, Pasutaa
A11: G3 | FILIP, Shiki, G3 | Dol
A12: Salena, Coral
A13: Paseriman, Motsunabe, Moori, Z~Tan
A14: Ice, G3 | Dainosuke
A15: Ruriruri, Yusan, shky
A16: kept

B1: Choco, Fujita
B2: G3 #THE | Abadango, SH
B3: Shu, Gurumia, Menma
B4: taranito
B5: G3 SHIG | 9B, Mr. II, Takoman
B6: Daiki, Kuchitsupa
B7: Some, Brood, Kappamaki, Eim, Lightning Igarashi, Taiga
B8: Pichi
B9: KEN, Reo
B10: G3 | Nasubi, RYO, Hare, Tamanyaso
B11: Yuzu, Kisha, Shoot, mow, SHIG | Ninomiya
B12: Kamemushi, Yoc, Fuwa, Hacyappy, Qoo
B13: Octo
B14: Tsu-, Shogun
B15: SHIG | Aiba, SHIG | Shadow, Nojinko, Lean
B16: Nariyasu

All that being said, this is the only advertisement I will post in this thread (though I may drop in with specific MU commentary related to the event).

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK has weak Nair to Dair at the edge (utilizing the backwards falling animation when they slide off). I've only seen it done successfully off a shield break, but it's guarenteed and can kill as early as 10% depending on the opponent's fallspeed and recovery distance. It's gimmicky.

The most reliable one I know of is that Diddy has Dtilt to RAR Bair on characters that dtilt to usmash doesn't work on. At the ledge, I've killed with this as early as 100%

DK has a ton of weak hit aerial to kill. Around 50%-90% (dependent on fall speed and rage), I've landed soft bairs to jump dair. It requires precision, but it has happened mainly when I play floaties.

 

[Megamang]

Thinkaman can they punish the tech? If not, thats the pits. If so, then it makes sense to go for them at kill percents frequently.


Greninja can up angled counter into uair kill, those are pretty amazing. Charged shurikan to fair will kill if they are DIing away, which isnt uncommon as they try to escape the projectile.

Can anyone besides shiek and sometimes greninja get kill confirms from projectile hits? Edit: megaman has some too, duh.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

On the subject of Zelda, here are 2 matches of Zelda play by hyrule hero in the recent shockwave tournament.

I bring it up not only because he uses some of those dair followups that Thinkaman mentioned, but because it's probably some of the best Zelda play I've seen in recent memory.

It's always good to see more footage to evaluate your opinion especially on a character several consider to be the worst in the game. We know her problems, but not everyone has seen what she can do. I think those sets show a little of that (I'm also wondering if the dthrow uair combo to end the first match was true or not)

Megamang in the second match of the link I posted above (vs Ike) Zelda punishes the dair tech to take Ike's second stock with a down smash

 

[bc1910]

Thinkaman can they punish the tech? If not, thats the pits. If so, then it makes sense to go for them at kill percents frequently.


Greninja can up angled counter into uair kill, those are pretty amazing. Charged shurikan to fair will kill if they are DIing away, which isnt uncommon as they try to escape the projectile.

Can anyone besides shiek and sometimes greninja get kill confirms from projectile hits? Edit: megaman has some too, duh.

Pikachu can get Thunder Jolt into Usmash if you B-reverse the jolt in the air and run behind it.

On the subject of Greninja kill confirms he also gets weak Nair to Usmash. It's more reliable than Dtilt Usmash yet harder to land, but still kills really early and is safe to whiff.

 

[Mario766]

Ike has a slew of kill confirms they just don't last very long. As we saw, even in a MU like Pikachu a back hit N-Air can and will lead to death.

Back hit N-Air into Back/F-Air at the ledge, or even up air.
Up Throw -> F-Air/U-Air MU/Rage dependent, very reliable on the upper echelon of the cast.
Front hit N-Air combos into F-Air on fast fallers for kills at high percents, with little to no rage.
Down Tilt also links into F-Air on fast fallers at the same percents that N-Air works, but if you can get someone in the 2 frame by the ledge it's downright deadly, the lower position puts them in perfect position for a F-Air that will send them flying easily killing them.

Then he has his 50/50s in up-air which always are there out of up throw. This is cast global and easily catches any air dodges but most people can just jump out. Some are true combos and require a back hit *which is the first hitbox* and a buffered dash barely forward. This works primarily on Falcon/Fox/Sheik and I think ZSS.

 

[ARGHETH]

Can anyone besides shiek and sometimes greninja get kill confirms from projectile hits?

Robin gets Fair/Uair from Arcfire and Arcthunders that land close enough

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy's side special is better at high %s cos it links better but worse at low %s because it does less damage than Marth's.

I've just fallen out of Marth's at like 5% plenty of times... I'm assuming it links better on faster fallers since Vipermoon dropped a like.

If teching grounded spikes were removed (which they should), Zelda and DHD would benefit the most since they have SHAC dair kill confirm options at various percents, particularly on fast-fallers.

Even without their removal, teching these moves is not something we should auto-assume even at high-level. I think they are the most overlooked and underrated aspects of these two (bad) characters.

I'll vouch for ground bounce kill confirms. Especially if it's from a decently fast move your opponent won't be teching them very often. If Pit ground bounces a grounded opponent with Dair it's a free smash or Bair depending on the opponent, and if Usmash works on them it'll always kill on FD at least. Doesn't ground bounce until like 110% though...

Pit's got other kill confirms too, but they're difficult to use and the word's still out on how confirm-y they actually are...

 

[Ffamran]

Well, if we want to rank something so badly, id say ranking kill confirms is the most relevant to high level MUs.


Soft nair to BF is the kind of discovery keeping shiek growing/terrifying. Ryu blatantly has good kill confirms, yet their high hitlag and multiple hitting nature hurts them.


Apparently marios are learning a new kill confirm from landing dair, requiring a perfect pivot to execute. Greninjas dtilt to usmash requires a jump canceled smash, depending on DI, but kills really early.


Anyone with a less known main have a kill confirm we might not know about? Does m2 have any? He seems like the type.

Now that you mention it, I remember seeing a Mario, I don't remember where, maybe a Mario player in a video on terminalkai's channel, use late Nair to Up Smash. I don't know if this is ever guaranteed or a known and tossed setup. Granted, it makes sense considering Mario's good run speed and Up Smash being a move Mario players like killing with because it's just that damn safe. The issue is probably needing to pivot it since Mario's Up Smash's front hitbox doesn't cover as much as Dr. Mario and Luigi's.

A recent terminalkai video of Falco had players make use of pivot Uair to confirm Bair. Considering that Bair kills easily and Falco could potentially launch you off stage and followup with a pivot Uair... That being said, Bair would definitely be staled at that point since it's that good and used a crapton if Keitaro, Ally, Larry, and other Falco players haven't showed everyone already.

If teching grounded spikes were removed (which they should), Zelda and DHD would benefit the most since they have SHAC dair kill confirm options at various percents, particularly on fast-fallers.

Even without their removal, teching these moves is not something we should auto-assume even at high-level. I think they are the most overlooked and underrated aspects of these two (bad) characters.

Untechable Ganondorf stomping would be terrifyingly hilarious.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner has the least linear neutral due to the ability for Gunner to b-reverse grenades in the air, and control their aerial momentum while using bomb drop or fair (Flame pillar also does this, but I am talking about 3312 gunner). In addition, mii gunner's grenade and missile last long enough to allow gunner to move around and attack while an opponent is pressured by the projectile. Mii Gunner also has a strong shorthop game with fair and bair to wall out opponents, and gundashing with fair to move around the stage quickly. The neutral game is a huge factor in the viability of mii gunner since mii gunner has one of the best neutral games in all of Smash 4.

On the topic of kill confirms. Mii Gunner can guarantee a kill at 70% with grenade to footstool dair near the edge of the stage. There are also a variety of kill setups with Gunner in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Untechable Ganondorf stomping would be terrifyingly hilarious.

It already is untechable, if they're grounded (Which is what Thinkaman was talking about). Falco's dair shares this property, I'm not sure about Ryu's dair but I think it does as well.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon's D-throw combos into F-air at kill percents if you DI in. It only really works if you're right at the ledge where people don't want to get flung too far by F-throw, and the timing requires you to buffer it.

He can also Tipman --> Footstool --> Wizkick people at low %'s near the edge, but it only works on big characters.

Untechable Ganondorf stomping would be terrifyingly hilarious.

Quick note, Ganon's D-air actually is untechable due to the amount of hitlag it causes when it hits.

 

[Cheezin]

Thinkaman can they punish the tech? If not, thats the pits. If so, then it makes sense to go for them at kill percents frequently.


Greninja can up angled counter into uair kill, those are pretty amazing. Charged shurikan to fair will kill if they are DIing away, which isnt uncommon as they try to escape the projectile.

Can anyone besides shiek and sometimes greninja get kill confirms from projectile hits? Edit: megaman has some too, duh.

Toon link gets JCIT Bomb > Fair around 110% and can even link Boomerang > Bomb > Fair.

And then Diddy has Banana > Dtilt > Usmash/ Bair Depending on the character.

And then Pac Man can do a lot of crazy shenanigans...

 

[Vyrnx]

To branch off into a new topic...

Which characters do you all think have either the most or least linear nuetral in sm4sh? And how much does it help/hinder their viability.

I would put and as contenders for most linear. I know it hurts G&W since the few options he does have in nuetral are only okay at best. Although, Usmash is pretty good due to its intense shield safety and invincibility, but it is still easy to see coming.

As for meta knight, it keeps him from taking over imo. DA, ftilt, and dash grab are all powerful options but considering the fact that they are pretty much all he has in nuetral, it keeps him honest in that game state. Imagine if he had a safe sh game...


Edit: As for least linear, and due to their sheer amount of options.

has such a poor neutral that I doubt he will be viable. Maybe ever, sad to say. He has fantastic combos, a fantastic recovery, and pretty good kill options, but his neutral combined with his weight. Ugh.

I say this because he's one of those characters that people consider to have, "hidden potential." I think all of his "potential" has been found but is being held back by his incredibly poor neutral and weight. But maybe there's some hope for him.

 

[Mario766]

Ganon Down Air not techable? I've teched it at super high percents. It doesn't seem right.

 

[Y2Kay]

What options does GnW have in neutral, if any at all?

 

[Vyrnx]

What options does GnW have in neutral, if any at all?

Well, he does have options. They just aren't that good or reliable.
His dash attack is surprisingly good, but only so good as dash attacks go. That mixed up with a mediocre dash/standing grab means he can at least do basic dash attack/dash grab mixups, coupled with decent mobility.

For some reason people like to talk about his aerials being used in neutral. I don't honestly know what they mean, because they're all highly punishable, except maybe like, an extremely well spaced retreating bair. Yes, they are disjointed, but I am probably just going to shield, and that's that. He is also the one who has to do a lot of the approaching, since he can't force approaches himself, which means he plays neutral sort of like MK, running around and camping.

He has a good crouch too... But it doesn't mean he beats Sheik. Might be useful in the future though.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, he does have options. They just aren't that good or reliable.
His dash attack is surprisingly good, but only so good as dash attacks go. That mixed up with a mediocre dash/standing grab means he can at least do basic dash attack/dash grab mixups, coupled with decent mobility.

For some reason people like to talk about his aerials being used in neutral. I don't honestly know what they mean, because they're all highly punishable, except maybe like, an extremely well spaced retreating bair. Yes, they are disjointed, but I am probably just going to shield, and that's that. He is also the one who has to do a lot of the approaching, since he can't force approaches himself, which means he plays neutral sort of like MK, running around and camping.

He has a good crouch too... But it doesn't mean he beats Sheik. Might be useful in the future though.

Chef is an OK mid-range poke and anti-air. And people who are accustomed to shielding his aerials may fall prey to a tomahawk grab (ditto Shulk, especially with Jump).

Also has a good boxing game with that jab and ftilt.

 

[McDizzle!]

Ganon Down Air not techable? I've teched it at super high percents. It doesn't seem right.

I think he means when the opponent is on the ground. If you're in the air when you get hit by it then I'm pretty sure you can tech it.