Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Mario766]

I think he means when the opponent is on the ground. If you're in the air when you get hit by it then I'm pretty sure you can tech it.

I've still seen it teched, though I guess I could be mistaken.

I don't have a Wii U to test it either.

 

[McDizzle!]

I've still seen it teched, though I guess I could be mistaken.

I don't have a Wii U to test it either.

On Smashwiki it says that Ganondorf's d-air cannot be teched by an opponent on the ground.

Here is the link: http://www.ssbwiki.com/meteor_smash

 

[meleebrawler]

On the subject of Zelda, here are 2 matches of Zelda play by hyrule hero in the recent shockwave tournament.

I bring it up not only because he uses some of those dair followups that Thinkaman mentioned, but because it's probably some of the best Zelda play I've seen in recent memory.

It's always good to see more footage to evaluate your opinion especially on a character several consider to be the worst in the game. We know her problems, but not everyone has seen what she can do. I think those sets show a little of that (I'm also wondering if the dthrow uair combo to end the first match was true or not)

@Megamang in the second match of the link I posted above (vs Ike) Zelda punishes the dair tech to take Ike's second stock with a down smash

Lots of low-tiers have their capabilities overshadowed by people parroting their most well-known issues, like Mewtwo's weight, Shulk's poor frame data etc. Or there are decent characters that are still marred by poor first impressions at release, like Meta Knight (initially), Greninja after his nerfs and Marth.

 

[Mario766]

I've seen so much **** on ssbwiki that I really don't trust it.

 

[Lavani]

Falco's dair shares this property

Falco's dair only spikes aerial opponents. The strong hit is an 80° launch for grounded opponents, it can't be teched because it doesn't hit them into the floor in the first place.

 

[meleebrawler]

I've seen so much **** on ssbwiki that I really don't trust it.

Yes, like saying Mewtwo is nerfed from Melee because he can't do some Melee stuff anymore.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

I've seen so much **** on ssbwiki that I really don't trust it.

Do you trust the Beefy Smash Doods? Their video's are often quite informative and well researched. Falco received his down air change to launch grounded enemies in his 1.0.8 patch changes.

 

[Blobface]

If you were crouching when you got hit it would lower the hitlag, so you might be able to tech it then.

Could also be techable if its stale, but believe me, fresh D-air is definitely not techable.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What options does GnW have in neutral, if any at all?

Dtilt, Ftilt, Jab, Bair, Fair, dash attack, situational-based Fsmash/Usmash/Dsmash, he has options, they're just not super reliable.

 

[Mario766]

Options...you can say that about basically every character.

Are they good options? Are they safe on shield? The issue here is that G&W doesn't have a solid plan in neutral to play out the game. He gets solid reward for winning neutral but doesn't have the neutral strength to win it consistently.

 

[Ffamran]

It already is untechable, if they're grounded (Which is what Thinkaman was talking about). Falco's dair shares this property, I'm not sure about Ryu's dair but I think it does as well.

Quick note, Ganon's D-air actually is untechable due to the amount of hitlag it causes when it hits.

Really? I'm pretty sure you can tech all spikes or Meteor Smashes as they're officially called. Kind of long-winded in my opinion when you can just call them spikes. It's only in Melee where there was a spike, Falco's Dair, you couldn't tech and that was revealed to be a programming error. The rest had all spikes be techable and in Brawl, there were some spikes you couldn't meteor cancel.

As for Falco, like Lavani mentioned already, it's because of a special interaction that I think only Falco has involving his, initially, Falco Phantasm, and now, Dair. Other spikes in Smash just strictly spike unless they have a late hit like Luigi's or have different hitboxes that are called at different frames like Mario and Marth's or on different parts on whatever is hitting like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Ike, and Roy's. Falco's special where he has hitboxes dependent on whether or not the opponent is grounded. If they're airborne, his Dair and Falco Phantasm are treated as spikes, but if they're grounded, they're treated as non-spikes or even "anti-spikes" since both launch people up instead of down.

I don't know how this is programmed, but assuming his Falco Phantasm was like this in Melee, then I don't know why all spikes don't have this property. Yes, teching can be considered an advanced skill, especially to newbies, but that being said, it's not like a spike that can't be teched on the ground becomes broken. Smash 4 Falco's Dair spike/clean hit kills around 200% earlier now at 188% to his late hit's 256%. Sure, it doubled, but it's still pretty weak for a 13%, frame 16 hit - Utilt kills earlier by 17%. The ability to just launch people up lets Falco use it to setup in a weird, but guaranteed way instead of inconsistent since the hit lag along with it being not as strong as Ganondorf's meant you could tech it more easily.

Outside of Zelda and whoever else Thinkaman mentioned, I can't really think of any other characters who'd greatly benefit from this. Luigi and Ryu come to mind, but that's because they have frame 10 and frame 8 Dairs, respectively, but you just gave them a vertical launcher now which they could instead use something safer like Nair or Fair.

 

[Mario766]

Ryu would love the change. Down Air sends people at the perfect KB for a true shoryu.

 

[Ffamran]

Ryu would love the change. Down Air sends people at the perfect KB for a true shoryu.

Everyone would love and benefit from the change, but nobody would gain anything insane from it. Nobody has a frame 5 spike like Falco's in Melee - closest is Ryu's frame 8, but his doesn't last over 15 frames which would make it a Ryu Nair with the ability to spike - which granted, as good and broken of a move it was, without Reflector or without chain-grabs - you could set it up from D-throw in Brawl, right? -, not being able to set it up is like using any other moves he and everyone else has. I mean, how good would Fox's Up Smash be if he had no way to guarantee it? It'd be like Mario's now; a really good move, but nothing to guarantee it. This is why I'm wondering why this change/property hasn't been universal by now. I say now because Brawl was kind of wacky. *looks at Brawl Falco*

 

[Radical Larry]

@MARTH_IS_BAE The last name of your full user means "poop" in Danish. So you're saying Marth is poop with your misnomer, which is ironic considering he's a pretty solid character with a great standing ovation with aerials and frame data, while having some decent combo ability (not counting his throws) and good kill moves (F-Smash killing at 40% damage).

Aside from that hilarious notion, Link's Spin Attack is apparently a stage-spiking move if it's used. I don't know how, but I was playing a random Smash Match in my time in Florida, and suddenly my opponent just tries to recover, but loses all because he got stage spiked by Link's GROUNDED Spin Attack. It might have been a random thing, but the opponent was recovering low, didn't snap the ledge in time, but...it doesn't explain how the attack would stage spike them when it has a hitbox higher than what I should have hit them with.

It's something valuable that may need testing and could potentially be a game changer for Link overall in terms of MUs.

 

[Apeirohaon]

I'd assume you can't tech Ganon's dair for the same reason you can't tech some aerials if you're touching a wall - hitlag and tech frames overlap or whatever

 

[wedl!!]

Grounded dair sets up for true srk already since you can't tech it on ground IIRC.

 

[Mario766]

Ryu would definitely be one of if not the most benefited from it. He already has very strong true combos that lead into down air out of N-Air strings. Coupled with D-Air no longer being techable, it leads into a very stupid string of

N-Air -> N-Air -> N-Air -> Down Air Ground Spike -> True Shoryu dealing over 35 damage and killing at obscene percents.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Ffamran Mario766 If you dont trust the videos or what Blobface and I have been saying, then there's really no way to prove it to you (we could try a handcam on a controller, but you could argue they're just missing the tech timing) you'll just have to try it yourself.

Or wait for our resident video evidence guy, @Trifroze

 

[Lavani]

it's because of a special interaction that I think only Falco has involving his, initially, Falco Phantasm, and now, Dair

It's not unique to Falco. Off the top of my head, Megaman's dair, Dedede's dair, Palutena's dair, and Mewtwo's dair function the same way.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

My opinion of worst recoveries, from worst to less awful:










This might seem out of place, but I haven't missed the two frame punish in a long time. Plus, at this point, there aren't that many bad recoveries that stand out as bottom ten, the closest were Mega Man, Falco, and Luigi. Oh, and DK. But that up b has such a weird hitbox, it's harder than it looks to gimp him.


Might as well do best recoveries while I'm at it.












Sorry .

Not out of place at all. The reason why you're not missing the 2 frame probably is because it's not just a 2 frame. Unlike other teleports, Palutena's Warp is just that, a warp. She has invisbility forthe middle of it, but no invincibility like Zelda or Mewtwo (the "teleport"). If you throw out any hitbox mid-path, she will get hit by it, not just the 2-frame at the ledge.

 

[Mario766]

The issue here is, if the concept of teching and hitlag are the same thing for both wall and ground techs, then the following things must be true.

1) If you are close enough to a solid surface, and you are hit towards the surface, you can not tech because your hitlag is overlapped with the frames you are against the wall. This leads to a no-tech attack and instantly causes a stage spike.

If we assume the time to tech on the ground is exactly the same as on a wall, which I haven't seen any data to prove otherwise, then any attack that would have you hit the ground should cause a no-tech option. However you CAN tech spikes on the ground. As even seen in the video, Ike's Down Air and Mario's F-Air spikes are both teched. Ike's was teched at 130+, which means percent doesn't mean a whole lot here. What does this mean then?

For Ganon's down air to be not-techable there would need to be a damage window where the move can't be teched on the ground. Ganon's Down Air does 19. Ryu's doesn't actually spike, it sends you at a semi-spike angle of 300. It does 15.

Ike's Down Air with the spike hitbox does 15. This either means that Ryu's semi-spike angle bypasses the rule, because it doesn't actually spike, or it CAN be teched.


This means either 2 things can be said.

1) Ganon's Down Air has just enough hitlag to be no-teched because of the extra 4 damage.
2) There's something in the coding for Ganon's Down Air for it to have extra hitlag. I don't believe it uses the electric property which would increase the hitlag.

or

3) It is techable, and the video is in fact wrong.

The closest damage meteor would be Bowser's Down Air at 16 damage, unless I'm missing a spike off the top of my head. I'm 99 percent sure that is in fact techable. This means that it has to do ~19 damage to be non-techable. This leads the question, what if I boost my character with Atk points in equipment and make the spikes do 19+? Do they become non-techable? I really doubt it.

 

[Apeirohaon]

I'm pretty sure that Ganon's dair has extra hitlag. I haven't tested it, but just from memory it definitely seems that way
Ryu's dair has an 84 degree angle too, and it's colored on KuroganeHammer the same way Falco's dair's 80 degree angle is (in red)
edit: also ryu has a bunch of hitlag on like all his moves so that's probably it


I doubt this could happen with any other meteor

 

[Mario766]

The 300 degree angle is the sweet spot we're talking about here. When Ryu does the combo into Shoryu, he wants the spike into the ground to pop them up just slightly.

 

[Lavani]

Not out of place at all. The reason why you're not missing the 2 frame probably is because it's not just a 2 frame. Unlike other teleports, Palutena's Warp is just that, a warp. She has invisbility forthe middle of it, but no invincibility like Zelda or Mewtwo (the "teleport"). If you throw out any hitbox mid-path, she will get hit by it, not just the 2-frame at the ledge.

erm

Not sure where your claims are coming from, Palutena's recovery is quite good and her Warp is a lot quicker on both start and end than Farore's Wind. Players like IceNinja put in the work to learn recovery angles that eliminate the 2 frame too, making it completely safe.

 

[Mario766]

All teleport recoveries have invincibility for the entire ledge snap animation when recovering at or above the ledge height. It's only below the stage that they are subject to the 2 frame.


We Ikes have studied this...

Heavily.

 

[Ffamran]

Ryu would definitely be one of if not the most benefited from it. He already has very strong true combos that lead into down air out of N-Air strings. Coupled with D-Air no longer being techable, it leads into a very stupid string of

N-Air -> N-Air -> N-Air -> Down Air Ground Spike -> True Shoryu dealing over 35 damage and killing at obscene percents.

Except you're now launching people up meaning you could end up doing late, aerial input Shoryukens which won't kill as early, but still early by everyone's standards. The lowest angle out of the characters Lavani mentioned is Triple D's 361 angle, but at higher percents, it starts going higher up. Otherwise, you're looking at Mega Man's 45 degree angle.

It's not unique to Falco. Off the top of my head, Megaman's dair, Dedede's dair, Palutena's dair, and Mewtwo's dair function the same way.

Would Little Mac count too since his Dair's a really weak spike, so he's not going to spike anyone until really high percents? Also, would Kirby's technically count because of the landing hit; the landing hit would just override that last hit meaning they wouldn't be able to tech right after the last aerial hit?

 

[AnEventHorizon]

2) There's something in the coding for Ganon's Down Air for it to have extra hitlag. I don't believe it uses the electric property which would increase the hitlag.

Ganondorf down air IS electric. It has visible electric hitlag (and sounds).

 

[Lavani]

All teleport recoveries have invincibility for the entire ledge snap animation when recovering at or above the ledge height. It's only below the stage that they are subject to the 2 frame.


We Ikes have studied this...

Heavily.

And I've posted this multiple times across the CCI threads, but it's not just teleport recoveries, it's any above-the-ledge snap.

It's obviously more prevalent for teleports since they can be invincible all the way to the ledge, but it's a good thing to be mindful of with literally everyone.

 

[Mario766]

Except you're now launching people up meaning you could end up doing late, aerial input Shoryukens which won't kill as early, but still early by everyone's standards. The lowest angle out of the characters Lavani mentioned is Triple D's 361 angle, but at higher percents, it starts going higher up. Otherwise, you're looking at Mega Man's 45 degree angle.

It sends people at the 300 degree angle, not at the 270. This makes it very strong for putting people in the range of Ryu's fist. It has very little BKB and 80 KBG, so it sends people very shallowly after hitting the stage, so even at 70-80 it'll put people into sweet spot Shoryu range.

 

[LancerStaff]

Would Little Mac count too since his Dair's a really weak spike, so he's not going to spike anyone until really high percents?

With Pit if you hit with a Dair spike before it causes a ground bounce it's insanely unsafe due to how weak it is... The opponent kinda just stumbles a little and then can act. Thankfully it's fairly hard to accidentally hit with the spike hitbox once you understand how it works.

Mac I imagine is the same when it comes to combo potential with the spike, so nothing at all really.

 

[Ffamran]

It sends people at the 300 degree angle, not at the 270. This makes it very strong for putting people in the range of Ryu's fist. It has very little BKB and 80 KBG, so it sends people very shallowly after hitting the stage, so even at 70-80 it'll put people into sweet spot Shoryu range.

I meant if it had the grounded/airborne check where if grounded, let's say it launches at 80, but airborne, it does its usual 300 degrees. If Ryu launches you up, then he won't be able to get the ground-only and/or early Shoryuken. Doesn't matter for him considering light Utilt to Shoryuken works and kills well, but that's just Ryu.

 

[Radical Larry]

@MARTH_IS_BAE I find Olimar's recovery to be on par with Duck Hunt's, since Olimar is more of a sitting duck too, but Olimar at least can hit out of his recovery unlike Duck Hunt. So on-par, if not better than. Palutena's I have a hard time believing in, though.

And Doc vs Mac in terms of recovery is heavily debatable since I've pointed out things that both Mac and Doc have with their flaws and advantages with their recoveries. Both of them have the worst recoveries in the entire game, but the one who has a slightly better one is still Little Mac all because of the two having different Down B and Side B attacks that function better for Little Mac, the fact that Little Mac has a better wall jump and the fact that Mac has better aerial speed than Doc.

Then again, it's debatable.

Also, guys, it might just be me but whenever I get hit with a jab reset attack, I often just use the attack function on forced getup, and what happens? I actually attack. If I roll back, I roll back, too. So why is it that people are misleading others in the whole Jab Reset thing? I can certainly do anything OTHER than a forced getup, but why is there this stigma to where people think you can't?

 

[Lavani]

Also, guys, it might just be me but whenever I get hit with a jab reset attack, I often just use the attack function on forced getup, and what happens? I actually attack. If I roll back, I roll back, too. So why is it that people are misleading others in the whole Jab Reset thing? I can certainly do anything OTHER than a forced getup, but why is there this stigma to where people think you can't?

They have to hit with the attack within a certain window of you hitting the ground (30 frames?) to force the neutral getup. If they're late, you're still able to do whatever getup option you want.

 

[LightLV]

People really think that 2-frame window is good enough to be exploited on reaction, huh?

I don't know who you are, but please share how to make Marth/Lucina or Palu's warp somehow as dangerous to use as Falcon's. I'm sure the other human players would love to know.

 

[Mario766]

...Yes?

Very much so.

 

[LightLV]

...Yes?

Very much so.

Yeah, no.

Someone could change their usual timing by a few frames more or less and completely throw you off. It's not even a matter of player skill.

With the exception of a few very high-active hitboxes, of course.

People saying they can "PUNISH PALU'S TELEPORT ON REACTION" are either mistaken or flat-out lying.

 

[Jehtt]

People really think that 2-frame window is good enough to be exploited on reaction, huh?

You don't have to react to 2 frames. You have to react to the timing of the move you are looking to exploit. For example, Sheik might be invincible for most of her up b's startup but it is a pretty long startup nonetheless. You can react to the animation and punish Sheik's ledge snap.
Now, she has to be below the stage for that to happen and good Sheiks have started recovering just above the ledge to circumvent getting hit. But it is a feasible option if you hit Sheik low...
It's very hard to time on characters with recoveries that have a quick startup such as Sonic. But on characters with higher startups, getting a 2 frame punish is totally possible.

 

[Mario766]

A lot of recoveries start up rather decently slow, or takes time for it to get to the ledge. You react to the start of the recovery move.


It's a reaction, not a read. Even with Eruption being 5 frames, it's rather simple to just react to the start of a move and attack.

 

[Radical Larry]

They have to hit with the attack within a certain window of you hitting the ground (30 frames?) to force the neutral getup. If they're late, you're still able to do whatever getup option you want.

It's 25 frames, I believe, love.

But hey, do you have an explanation for my other bizarre event? I might catch it on video if I can again, but when I used Link's Spin Attack on a recovering opponent, it hit them directly under the stage and sent them into stage spike. Now mind you this was a grounded one, not an aerial one, and the opponent wasn't well within reach of the attack to actually get hit normally. I really would love to experiment more on this, but do you have a preliminary explanation?

 

[LightLV]

You don't have to react to 2 frames. You have to react to the timing of the move you are looking to exploit. For example, Sheik might be invincible for most of her up b's startup but it is a pretty long startup nonetheless. You can react to the animation and punish Sheik's ledge snap.
Now, she has to be below the stage for that to happen and good Sheiks have started recovering just above the ledge to circumvent getting hit. But it is a feasible option if you hit Sheik low...
It's very hard to time on characters with recoveries that have a quick startup such as Sonic. But on characters with higher startups, getting a 2 frame punish is totally possible.

Yeah, it's easier in those situations. But i was more responding to people claiming recoveries like Marth's or Palu's was bad because they've, uh, "mastered" that window. Which is silly.

Eruption is one of those attacks that are designed for that function, its actives help but it's mostly its lenient release window and hitbox that make it so good. But your typical 2-active-frame attack? Even reacting to the animation itself...it's 1/30th of a second.

Not to say it doesn't happen, granted there are situations where circumstances practically line up the window for you, especially with characters who have particularly bad recoveries. But still, it's 2 frames. Error margin is massive.