Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Apeirohaon]

Hitting a 2 frame ledge vulnerability with an attack, and intentionally getting a 5-frame perfect shield window (when your shield sensor comes up immediately) are not even remotely the same thing.

By this logic, getting that ledge window off should be more or less as easy as Pshielding attacks. Which we all know isn't even slightly true. Powershielding is so easy on this game it's commonly even done by mistake.

Of course, the argument was never that hitting a 2-frame window was impossible, just that people claiming they've mastered it (especially on recoveries that are super fast with hitboxes and can snap the ledge nearly instantly) are exaggerating.

powershielding is a 3-frame window (source), which is the same as hitting the ledgesnap window with a move that lasts 2 frames (most down smashes that hit below the ledge [fox, mac] seem to last around 2 frames)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Why do we talk so much about a character that has almost no rep?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Why do we talk so much about a character that has almost no rep?

We did it with Doc too for a bit, let's not get too much like this now!

It is character competitive impressions and theory after all, it should apply to the whole cast, rep or not. I think it simulates intriguing discussion that goes from the norm of talking about solely the best characters. Understanding WHY a character has less rep and fully being aware of it is super helpful to understanding the good characters too!

 

[Darktundra]

Attributes of a character are usually set in stone, balancing usually occur through character frame data, damage, or if the overall game mechanic changes

 

[Mario766]

Hitting the 2 frame isn't as hard as it seems. It just takes proper timing and good reactions.

A year of Eruption timing set this in stone for me. Marios also get the dash attack hit a lot, because it lingers.

Now getting a 1-2 frame attack on the 2 frame isn't as easy, but I can get down tilts on ledge grabs semi-consistently which lasts 2 frames.

 

[Rizen]

Of course, the argument was never that hitting a 2-frame window was impossible, just that people claiming they've mastered it (especially on recoveries that are super fast with hitboxes and can snap the ledge nearly instantly) are exaggerating.

Hitting the ledge snap vulnerability isn't that hard, especially since several moves last several frames. Link's Nair and dair are great for that. Low recoveries are also limited in where they can go. Just make a simple read and attack the ledge-snap area.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hitting a 2 frame ledge vulnerability with an attack, and intentionally getting a 5-frame perfect shield window (when your shield sensor comes up immediately) are not even remotely the same thing.

Powershielding, in terms of reflecting projectiles in Melee, is a 2 frame window. Perfect Shielding is 4 frames in Melee/Brawl and 3 in Smash 4.

Why do we talk so much about a character that has almost no rep?

Because where else is theory most valuable but in the absence of data?

 

[LightLV]

Powershielding, in terms of reflecting projectiles in Melee, is a 2 frame window. Perfect Shielding is 4 frames in Melee/Brawl and 3 in Smash 4.

Shielding is pretty much a 1:1 player interaction. There are no startup frames to worry about. Melee also has the distinction of Analog vs. Digital button press. You also have sensor size to worry about. It's way easier to do now.

Ledge vulnerability has variable ledgesnap distances between moves, you have to worry about hitboxes, startup frames, enemy timing, your timing, ect ect ect. It is not the same as Powershielding, and like i said, if it was then it would be far more consistent of a practice. As such, i don't really see the point of comparing powershielding to ledge snap vulnerability. Simply playing the game shows the difference between the two

 

[Radical Larry]

NachoOfCheese Because there might be some representatives, mains, secondaries, tertiaries, who may come along and set up some arguments for or against said character. Characters like Mewtwo and Zelda, since they have much less representation than the likes of someone like Bowser or Donkey Kong, would need some people to talk or speak about them, to theorycraft, to think of ways to make them better, to point out their flaws, to argue for or against them.

It's like Thinkaman said:

Because where else is theory most valuable but in the absence of data?

Sometimes we need to theorycraft those characters who hold less representation than others. Yet there is the drawback of underrepresentation in the fact that some characters, like Doc was at one time, are considered far worse than they actually are in reality. I'm not saying that the likes of Zelda is better than she is; she's not a solid character and is horribly flawed against thin and small framed characters, but there are characters people need to think outside the box on at times and maybe they can go to tourneys, find some valuable matches on Smash Ladder or try finding new techniques and arguments for the characters.

Characters like Link, Wii Fit Trainer and Robin can be considered so much better if it were not for the lack (or somewhat lack thereof) of representatives to the characters. That's why I'm here to try thinking of the positives of Link while keeping in mind the negatives, trying to give counterarguments and theories on Link himself. Not only him, but Little Mac, Ganondorf, and any character I can play to a great level of decency and viability.

Enough about that, but I have to say this now, when I started playing ROB, it's clear that I'm a decent player with him, even though I know very little about him as a character. Then there came the crafting of new things I had to do on my own. B-Air's quite safe on shield and is very great to use as a mind game finisher if you just jump toward the edge of the stage, go on the opposite side of your opponent, do a second jump and then use B-Air if the opponent doesn't shield. It works wonders.

 

[LancerStaff]

A Dsmash that lasts two frames would mean a three frame window correct? Then a three frame attack would be four frames, and so on...

Having an attack that lasts three frames on the ledge and launches at a 30 degree angle is pretty awesome, hehehe.

 

[LightLV]

A Dsmash that lasts two frames would mean a three frame window correct? Then a three frame attack would be four frames, and so on...

Having an attack that lasts three frames on the ledge and launches at a 30 degree angle is pretty awesome, hehehe.

It means the hitbox is active for 2 frames. These 2 frames would need to collide with the hurtbox of the recovering player's 2-frame ledge vulnerability for it to work.

Consider Mario's Downsmash. It's active from frames 5-6, giving it 2 frames of actives. This also means the animation startup is 4 frames long. If you started the animation 3-5 frames before the ledge snap, the player would be hit. Any faster or slower and they recover. This is considering the hitbox collides with the hurtbox.

Ike's Eruption has a 20-frame startup before you can release it, of course this is irrelevant because you can hold it. And i'm not sure how long the release takes, but regardless it just has properties which make it perfect for edgeguarding because its hitbox is massive and also has super armor (for dealing with ledge attacks). It's good for ledge vulnerability but is also excellent at hitting the player before the snap even happens.

A move like Link's Nair is active from frames 7-31, which is 24 frames of active with a 6 frame startup. Of course this is much easier to use because you can undershoot the timing by more than 1/3rd of a second, but here you're worrying about your enemies hitboxes too.


It's not only about frames, which is all i was saying, there are other practical things to take into consideration too. It's very possible to practice doing, but there are tons of variables and a very large window of error, even when with highly telegraphed recoveries, because we haven't even started to discuss the range at which the ledge snap occurs.

 

[meleebrawler]

He would just be better off as a real heavyweight, honestly.

Well congrats. Now almost all of the fatties are obsolete.

You know what happens when you give Mewtwo weight higher than light (and totally not-fanbase pandering powers)?

There are many reasons Mewtwo shouldn't have high weight, but the main reason is that his recovery is just too good. Not even D3's or Charizard's can compare.

I can understand thinking that Mewtwo in his current state is TOO light, but try to see what Mewtwo has compared to others before making knee-jerk requests.

 

[Luco]

Congrats to our very own Ghostbone for conquering the rest of aussieland this weekend, with a mix of MK, Diddy, and Sheik. Thanks to his victory, we'll be seeing him at Genesis 3!

I only got to see like winners and maybe a bit of loser's finals in the stream yesterday but it looked amazing. Hyped for Ghostbone to start rocking things up in smash motherland.

 

[Mario766]

Eruption starts charge on 20, and without charge it'll hit frame 30 according to Kurogane. So what I think is it'll hit as early as frame 30, and will hit frame 10 after the button is released. The move lasts 6 frames unless fully charged, where it lasts 4 frames, and has super armor at 75 percent charge during the sword release. *Super Armor lasts 4 frames before the hitbox comes out.* Having a 6 frame hitbox that hits super under the stage is why it's such a good edgeguard option that works on almost all the cast.

 

[Y2Kay]

So where and when are the replays for the Australian tourney going up?

Nice one Ghost bone!

 

[Ghostbone]

So where and when are the replays for the Australian tourney going up?

Nice one Ghost bone!

https://www.youtube.com/user/SASmashTV
https://www.youtube.com/user/SAFGCLive

Either one of these for top 8, most likely the former

https://www.youtube.com/user/Magnemation

Will probably have some top 32 on it.
Dunno how long they will take, you can already watch the twitch recordings though.

 

[Nobie]

So I decided to attend another tournament, this time Nebulous Prime in NYC. Did better than my last showing, winning 2 and losing 2.

The curious thing was that whenever I went Mewtwo, who I thought was my worse main, I would either win or have close matches, but when I went Mega Man, who I always thought was my stronger character, I got bodied. Part of it might have to do with match unfamiliarity (many more Mega Men than Mewtwos out there), but I have to wonder if there's something that's clicked recently that has allowed me to do better.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

So I decided to attend another tournament, this time Nebulous Prime in NYC. Did better than my last showing, winning 2 and losing 2.

The curious thing was that whenever I went Mewtwo, who I thought was my worse main, I would either win or have close matches, but when I went Mega Man, who I always thought was my stronger character, I got bodied. Part of it might have to do with match unfamiliarity (many more Mega Men than Mewtwos out there), but I have to wonder if there's something that's clicked recently that has allowed me to do better.

If that ever happens to me with my mains. I typically do a few matches with my main that I did worse with and spend more time on him/her. I don't want any of my characters to fall behind.

 

[Big-Cat]

I know this isn't the current topic, but I wanted to chime in on this.

"Bad frame data" is something that's a real pet peeve of mine. What makes it bad? To me, it's mostly a case by case thing with no real objective answer because the frame data really depends on the playstyle of the character. Like, Sheik with Bowser's frame data makes her terrible, but the same goes the other way around because Bowser is a giant cotton ball with all that weak damage.

 

[Radical Larry]

I know this isn't the current topic, but I wanted to chime in on this.

"Bad frame data" is something that's a real pet peeve of mine. What makes it bad? To me, it's mostly a case by case thing with no real objective answer because the frame data really depends on the playstyle of the character. Like, Sheik with Bowser's frame data makes her terrible, but the same goes the other way around because Bowser is a giant cotton ball with all that weak damage.

What I see frame data as is something that is compiled for the character's weight. Often the more weight a character has the slower their attacks are going to be at some times, or the longer lasting their attacks will be and vice versa. It, to me, is a weight dependent thing for a character.

It's like Hugo from USFIV, he's the largest character with the biggest lag of his attacks and yet the longest active frames of his attacks (as far as I know). Then take someone like Bowser in this game; he's got second the biggest lag of his class for any of his attacks overall (beaten by Dedede) and is yet a huge, heavy fighter. Heck, he even accelerates extremely slowly with his walk to add insult to injury.

But then again, the counterargument to this would be Ganondorf, who has some pretty good frame data on his attacks, especially his aerials, jab, tilts and U-Smash. So I'm just thinking now it could be a weight dependent thing or a thing that affects a single character to round out what flaws they might have. Probably the latter because Ganondorf needs speed on his attacks due to his poor mobility. Same goes for Luigi.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I know this isn't the current topic, but I wanted to chime in on this.

"Bad frame data" is something that's a real pet peeve of mine. What makes it bad? To me, it's mostly a case by case thing with no real objective answer because the frame data really depends on the playstyle of the character. Like, Sheik with Bowser's frame data makes her terrible, but the same goes the other way around because Bowser is a giant cotton ball with all that weak damage.

This bothers me too. When people talk about "frame data" they usually just mean the startup, end lag, or landing lag. Nothing else really.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I know this isn't the current topic, but I wanted to chime in on this.

"Bad frame data" is something that's a real pet peeve of mine. What makes it bad? To me, it's mostly a case by case thing with no real objective answer because the frame data really depends on the playstyle of the character. Like, Sheik with Bowser's frame data makes her terrible, but the same goes the other way around because Bowser is a giant cotton ball with all that weak damage.

What makes it bad?
Poor startup / endlag / landing lag / active frames. It's objective.
Example: Shulk's frame data is objectively bad. Doesn't really matter how you spin it. Same goes for Ness's frame data being objectively good. So... yeah. Not sure what "Sheik with Bowser's frame data" has to do with it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I know this isn't the current topic, but I wanted to chime in on this.

"Bad frame data" is something that's a real pet peeve of mine. What makes it bad? To me, it's mostly a case by case thing with no real objective answer because the frame data really depends on the playstyle of the character. Like, Sheik with Bowser's frame data makes her terrible, but the same goes the other way around because Bowser is a giant cotton ball with all that weak damage.

Isn't it bad because of High landing lag, bad autocancels, horrid IASA frames and slow start-up? Then there is also the general speed of moves and rolls/spotdodges/jumps.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Ghostbone is an absolute savage, knows full well he's destroying Nikes soul with every 20% to death yet continues picking apart his entire being.

Joking aside, MK mains everywhere seems to have Yoshi's number. Dunno bout Raptor against Tyrant, Zudenka in his state etc. but showcased yesterday and in my state at least, MK seems to solidly beat Yoshi due to him being floaty easy to catch in the air/combo food while not as fast as MK on the ground. If attempting to recover MK can easily knock him out of his DJ too, actually wait just noticed while typing this Ghost himself stated that so nvm.

That aside in terms of High level Yoshi's, the hyped up The Wall vs Jband is so far 2-0 or 3-0 in set counts right now with Yoshi not taking a single game off Jbandrew. I need to ask later if Raptor plays against Tyrant over in NJ, see if he has a record against him that's negative or positive.

 

[Pazx]

Raptor was in the chat saying the matchup wasn't as lopsided as Ghost made it look, but it doesn't matter how close a matchup is when the MK is hitting the uair upb string with such consistency.

Ghostbone congrats dude, it's good to see your hard work paying off. I was also glad to see the Diddy in GF.

Twitch vods are here, I'm probably missing at least one though. Top 8: http://www.twitch.tv/safgc/v/27888768?t=04m09s

Pools and Top 32: http://www.twitch.tv/kaizmo/v/27877604 https://www.youtube.com/user/Magnemation/videos

 

[Nobie]

What makes it bad?
Poor startup / endlag / landing lag / active frames. It's objective.
Example: Shulk's frame data is objectively bad. Doesn't really matter how you spin it. Same goes for Ness's frame data being objectively good. So... yeah. Not sure what "Sheik with Bowser's frame data" has to do with it.

One thing that doesn't get factored in is range, and though not perfect it's clearly how Smash 4 has been balanced. Case in point, many of Mewtwo's attacks have 1 additional startup frame compared to Melee. Why? Because he is gigantic now, his tail is massive, and it means he has more range. Of course, I believe that a lot of the good/bad frame data talk is a legacy of Melee, where you literally had characters like Fox and Sheik with AMAZING startup, recovery, speed, and power, and in those cases just being able to outbutton your opponents clearly took a huge dump on a lot of the cast.

Here's another thing: People will talk about how Marth's frame data is so bad because all of the speed of his moves' frame data is loaded at the startup, with high end lag to compensate. However, people will talk about moves with poor initial frame data but excellent cooldown frames with much higher praise. Why do people value recovery time so much more than startup time?

 

[Big-Cat]

What makes it bad?
Poor startup / endlag / landing lag / active frames. It's objective.
Example: Shulk's frame data is objectively bad. Doesn't really matter how you spin it. Same goes for Ness's frame data being objectively good. So... yeah. Not sure what "Sheik with Bowser's frame data" has to do with it.

Yet what about Shulk's massive range?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yet what about Shulk's massive range?

The range is compensation. Plus, the range isn't OP. Powershield.

 

[Mario766]

More than just that. His range has to compensate for

1) Landing lag on every aerial and not being able to auto cancel
2) High start-up on basically everything. Fastest move is frame 5 and after that it's 10+
3) High endlag on attacks.
4) Inadequate mobility except with 2 Monados that last 16 seconds then you're out for 11.

 

[Big-Cat]

The range is compensation. Plus, the range isn't OP. Powershield.

You're looking at this from the wrong viewpoint. You're implying that they deliberately gave him bad frame data. The frame data is BECAUSE of the range.

Then there's all the Monado Arts shenanigans.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You're looking at this from the wrong viewpoint. You're implying that they deliberately gave him bad frame data. The frame data is BECAUSE of the range.

Then there's all the Monado Arts shenanigans.

They deliberatly gave him bad frame data compared to the rest of the cast, and tried to compensate with range and Monado cancels. However, the compensation isn't quite good enough.

 

[meleebrawler]

Literrally all typical swordsmen have lower than average frame data as compensation for their range. Fail to do so and these guys happen: .

It's also why Dedede has the worst frame data of all fatties.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Yet what about Shulk's massive range?

I'm... talking about frame data. Pretty sure I said frame data.
And yeah what everyone else is saying is true: his crap frame data is just his balancing factor since he's got that range.

Literrally all typical swordsmen have lower than average frame data as compensation for their range. Fail to do so and these guys happen: .

It's also why Dedede has the worst frame data of all fatties.

^ This

 

[Ffamran]

So, I sort of screwed up Sheik's Needle Storm recovery frames - no, I didn't screw up simple math while using a calculator. What I screwed up was that unlike other projectiles, Sheik throws out multiple projectiles simultaneously. You might be asking, "But can't Diddy, Link, and Villager do that too?" Here's the difference: she does it with one button press in "one action" in contrast to Link having to pull out a Bomb, throw his Gale Boomerang, and then throw his Bomb. Why does this matter? Well, take a look at her recovery frame for Needle Storm.

With 1 Needle charged or uncharged, she takes 42 frames. Totally normal. "Uncharged", if she throws out 2 Needles, she takes 40, 3 Needles take 38, 4 Needles take 36, and 5 Needles take 35. "Charged", if she throws out 2 Needles, she takes 39, 3 Needles takes 36, 4 Needles take 33, 5 Needles take 30, and 6 Needles take 27. It decrements by a factor of 2 frames for uncharged and 3 for charged. This assumes it's done as close as possible. Add in hit stun, add in more range making recovery matter less since a character has to make their way to Sheik, and add in that Sheik's going to start throwing Needle Storm at frame 5 uncharged and frame 11 charged. Y'know, I can't think of any projectile outside of items? that come out at around frame 5 and while I can think of two projectiles that come out at frame 11, one of them doesn't cause any hit stun, Fox's, and the other does, but involves 40 frames on the ground and 33 frames in the air for consecutive shots, Falco's.

Y'know, it becomes a little silly that a frame 5, 1.9% max to 1.2% min, single Needle can cause hit stun. Now it's even more silly that the more Needles she stacks up, the less recovery she incurs. Other multi-hitting projectiles can "lower" recovery for the user since an opponent is locked into hit stun, but no character can alter how many projectiles they throw at a given time like this. Ryu and Robin can change it so their projectile hits once to a multi-hit, but they can fire off 3 Hadoukens or 4 Thunders at once and while Fox and Falco can fire rapidly, they will always have the same recovery.

The reason projectiles are treated as having 1 active frame is because it would be really annoying to figure out exactly where and when they'll hit. In most cases, projectiles aren't going to or aren't "intended" to hit. When Mario or Ryu use their projectiles, are they really trying to hit? Not really; they're looking to control their zone and challenge you to try and approach them. When Lucario, Luigi, Mewtwo, Robin, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, and ZSS try to hit with their projectiles, they know the risk if they miss, but they know the reward they can get out of hitting with those projectiles. Recovery frames be damned when Lucario, Mewtwo, Samus, or WFT hit you with their projectiles and you die. Recovery doesn't matter when Luigi, Robin, and ZSS can cause enough hit stun they can use it to setup or at least put you in an uncomfortable situation. Item users like Diddy, the Links, and Peach? Recovery matters for them to know when it's safe to pull one out. After that, it's just throw and go. And all of these characters only throw out one projectile in one button press. Recovery is treated as if that's the only hitbox they throw out, but Sheik? Sheik throws out 1 to 6 projectiles and the more she throws out, the less time she takes to recover. It's kind of weird logic since yes, whether or not if misses, she does take 42 frames to recover from that entire action, but if you treat the last projectile as the projectile being thrown in that move, then it's like she's throwing out a high startup and low recovery projectile. Doesn't matter if the first 4 Needles miss if the 5th one is still there and that's the projectile, the hit, the last active frame that matters. Probably poor wording, but I hope people understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[Rizen]

One way to think about good/bad frame data is look at how good a character is and their frame data. The high tiers always have fast, safe options. In general the faster a character's frame data is the more likely they'll be a good character.

 

[Amadeus9]

OK I've been adamant that MK loses to Yoshi for a long time but god damn ghost you decimated that boy. First of all, wtf you actually have a good mk I'm impressed, second of all... hmm I don't have a second point

For real like, what point does Yoshi even have for existing, then? Does this mean he loses to all of the top ten fighters?

 

[Nu~]

I've been saying Yoshi is "meh" for a while now...

Honestly, what does Yoshi have that keeps him in high tier in minds of the general public?

 

[Thinkaman]

The CCI Thread: Where a player can place 3rd at a national event (over internationally known players like Waveguider) with Yoshi, and we talk about how bad Yoshi must be.

 

[Nu~]

The CCI Thread: Where a player can place 3rd at a national event (over internationally known players like Waveguider) with Yoshi, and we talk about how bad Yoshi must be.

Well you have a point there...
But can't that just prove the skill of the player rather than the character's individual strength?

Like in Waveguider's case. I don't understand how wii fit trainer is still thought of to be a mid tier through all of Waveguider's success, while Yoshi is commonly regarded as a high/top tier with little results outside of this.

 

[Y2Kay]

Even with the Internet, we forget that people play smash outside of our respective countries lol.