Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[KenMeister]

Man, when a walk is good though, you can really feel it in how a character plays neutral. Which doesn't say much really cause the only top tier with a really good walk is mk lol. For real tho love mks walk.

Marth also has a good walk because of dtilt/jab and walking speed in general, but he's not considered relevant, so....

 

[meleebrawler]

Man, when a walk is good though, you can really feel it in how a character plays neutral. Which doesn't say much really cause the only top tier with a really good walk is mk lol. For real tho love mks walk.

You also feel it when the walk really sucks, like with Bowser. And walking is how good Little Macs approach most of the time.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Marth also has a good walk because of dtilt/jab and walking speed in general, but he's not considered relevant, so....

Marth is better now, spacing is much better in general now in the latest patch. It's just that his combo game is almost nonexistent. Solid mid tier imo

 

[UberMadman]

Pretty sure Zards recovery is good. No one is going to challenge his side b with a non projectile move, they would get obliterated. And even if they're at low percents zard still has two more jumps and an up b with super armour.

Charizard's recovery is decent because of his armored recovery options, but he's held back by the fact that he has some of the worst aerial mobility, his midair jumps gain him very little height at all, and his Up-B itself doesn't travel dramatically far. You can't challenge his Side-B or Up-B, but get him far enough below the stage and he simply won't be able to make it back to the ledge at all.

Goddamn it Sakurai, he's a dragon, cut him some slack.

 

[Routa]

Goddamn it Sakurai, he's a dragon, cut him some slack.

You mean Fire/Flying?

I'm sorry, but I just had to.

What about Zard's edgeguarding options? What els he can do other than Fair, Dair and Flamethrower?

 

[Trifroze]

Ryu's walk is good too, it's not just speed but the acceleration which allows him to move small distances pretty much instantaneously and why utilt lock works on anyone at all.

I don't see how yoshi's double jump isn't an exceptional vertical distance tool.
Yoshi's one of the few characters that can actually cover high recoveries from someone like diddy cos he can get up there quickly and almost match Diddy's side-b momentum.

It's a good second jump in terms of distance but it's also a much bigger commitment than normal ones due to how long you have to wait till you can FF out of it. Mewtwo was a pain to use in many situations because of this property in addition to the fact that his second jump also practically has startup.

 

[UberMadman]

You mean Fire/Flying?

I'm sorry, but I just had to.

What about Zard's edgeguarding options? What els he can do other than Fair, Dair and Flamethrower?

Bair and sweetspot Nair work too, but Charizard's real strength lies in punishing get ups. At the ledge, Rock Smash, Down Smash, and Reversed Up-Smash cover all 4 getup options, all can kill, and each one covers two at a time, (Rock Smash beats neutral and attack, Down Smash beats neutral and roll, and Up-Smash beats neutral and jump.)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Man, when a walk is good though, you can really feel it in how a character plays neutral. Which doesn't say much really cause the only top tier with a really good walk is mk lol. For real tho love mks walk.

Does Fox count?

 

[wedl!!]

Can someone please explain to me how Yoshi beats Ryu? I don't see it.

Is it because of high mobility+frame data? Is it his weight (which doesn't matter since everyone dies to trsk at like 90%, although I guess Yoshi could get out of the locks easier)? Is it like, egg harrassment?

 

[Y2Kay]

Charizard's recovery is decent because of his armored recovery options, but he's held back by the fact that he has some of the worst aerial mobility, his midair jumps gain him very little height at all, and his Up-B itself doesn't travel dramatically far. You can't challenge his Side-B or Up-B, but get him far enough below the stage and he simply won't be able to make it back to the ledge at all.

Goddamn it Sakurai, he's a dragon, cut him some slack.

For some reason Sakurai thinks Zard can't fly well(assuming b/c of Palutena's guidance) which is strange if you ask me.

 

[warionumbah2]

Joking aside, MK mains everywhere seems to have Yoshi's number. Dunno bout Raptor against Tyrant, Zudenka in his state etc. but showcased yesterday and in my state at least, MK seems to solidly beat Yoshi due to him being floaty easy to catch in the air/combo food while not as fast as MK on the ground. If attempting to recover MK can easily knock him out of his DJ too, actually wait just noticed while typing this Ghost himself stated that so nvm.

That aside in terms of High level Yoshi's, the hyped up The Wall vs Jband is so far 2-0 or 3-0 in set counts right now with Yoshi not taking a single game off Jbandrew. I need to ask later if Raptor plays against Tyrant over in NJ, see if he has a record against him that's negative or positive.

There's also Sect beating Esam's Yoshi - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkgAh2jAfHo

 

[FoxBrawler269]

Does Fox count?

Are you serious? Fox has been awful ever since melee. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Fox needs to return to his former glory.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Can someone please explain to me how Yoshi beats Ryu? I don't see it.

Is it because of high mobility+frame data? Is it his weight (which doesn't matter since everyone dies to trsk at like 90%, although I guess Yoshi could get out of the locks easier)? Is it like, egg harrassment?

I'd say the MU is more of even, but at the same time Ryu's damage output and being able to kill the entire cast at like 70% or lower depending on weight is spooky so like -1, to make it simpler kinda.
Yoshi has a lot of multihit moves that just says screw you to Ryu Focus and he can DJ out of his some Utilt attempts,but not his Dtilt to true shoryuken sadly. Eggs also screw with Ryu pretty hard too as mentioned earlier since two hitboxes to it and all.

I highly doubt any Ryu's in NJ go up against Raptor much, 9B against DIO Aiba Nino, Firefly Regrahlt Nikes etc. going against Ryu or even have Ryu mains in their state.
So the only high level games people would be able to find is Trela vs Wall. Think since Trela picked up Ryu they're 2-1 in Wall's favor, for set counts in general since MSF Robin Mewtwo Charizard days I don't have the real numbers but don't think he beat him before till now so that says a thing or two about the MU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WX_bI2utY
Their most recent game against each other I believe. From the random time I tuned into Trela/Wall's sponsored stream Smash United he was analyzing his match against Wall at Battlegrounds and it kinda boiled down to he wasn't too sure what to do in the MU/against Yoshi along with the SDs he kept doing against him wasn't helping. Think his solution to trying to take a different approach in the MU was camp against the aggression with Shakunetsu even if most of Yoshi's aerials eats through Hadoken rather than be impatient by going in and losing his stock or just eating more % for no reason.


That aside they need to upload more of Trela/friends analysis on whatever they're talking about, even I find em interesting so that's saying something, go follow them and SA's stream too :^)

 

[IkeTyson]

Does Fox count?

Are you serious? Fox has been awful ever since melee. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Fox needs to return to his former glory.

WHAT

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Can someone please explain to me how Yoshi beats Ryu? I don't see it.

Is it because of high mobility+frame data? Is it his weight (which doesn't matter since everyone dies to trsk at like 90%, although I guess Yoshi could get out of the locks easier)? Is it like, egg harrassment?

I tend to look at it this way.

Yoshi has an easier time escaping confirms into TRSK than others, and eggs are really hard for Ryu to deal with due to subpar mobility. Additionally, his Dair makes it so that FA is not spammed as often as in, say, the Falcon MU (God, that MU is abysmal). On top of that, he has a command grab to completely bypass it. These are just the main advantages that come to mind.

Also, Yoshi has a better air game. He just has a fundamental design that does well against Ryu.

 

[FoxBrawler269]

WHAT

What? All I'm saying is Fox sucks. He is nowhere near as good as he was.

 

[DunnoBro]

I dunno about overall but Yoshi v MK/Fox is dumb because of their dash attacks.

Not really sure how to explain it, but egg toss has just enough endlag/coverage/mobility that trying to dash grab him will almost always result in a foot to the face. But dash attacks beat this, so yoshi is really susceptible to them while just trying to play neutral.

He also has no good counter to them dash attacking his landing. Even if he fast falled properly and shields it, he'll never punish it unless they misstimed it super hard and let him b-reverse yoshi bomb. So they can just throw these out all day.

Considering these characters kill off dash attack... They're probably pretty bad MUs.

Yoshi is in the same vein as Pacman, Villager, and Wario are.

Yea, they got some great tools but thrive mostly on being good at keep-away and can't kill you/generate advantage reliably when they need to. Because of this they're on the lower end of of the "viable" characters.

What? All I'm saying is Fox sucks. He is nowhere near as good as he was.

Well, he is broken as hell in melee ntsc so I'm not too upset.

Really far from sucking in any smash installment though, probably best overall character in the series. I'm assuming you're either a troll or just casual af

 

[FoxBrawler269]

Look all I am saying is he needs his uthrow uair combo back. It's his staple and it's been neutered. His uair is so much weaker in this game that it would give him his staple and it wouldn't be OPd
But really what is wrong with it being OPd? People need to fear Fox's grab again.

 

[wedl!!]

The former is true, this guy's shown up one or twice in this thread making baseless statements about how bad Fox is and how he's deserving a buff dump. Ignore him.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I dunno about overall but Yoshi v MK/Fox is dumb because of their dash attacks.

Not really sure how to explain it, but egg toss has just enough endlag/coverage/mobility that trying to dash grab him will almost always result in a foot to the face. But dash attacks beat this, so yoshi is really susceptible to them while just trying to play neutral.

He also has no good counter to them dash attacking his landing. Even if he fast falled properly and shields it, he'll never punish it unless they misstimed it super hard and let him b-reverse yoshi bomb. So they can just throw these out all day.

Considering these characters kill off dash attack... They're probably pretty bad MUs.

Yoshi is in the same vein as Pacman, Villager, and Wario are.

Yea, they got some great tools but thrive mostly on being good at keep-away and can't kill you/generate advantage reliably when they need to. Because of this they're on the lower end of of the "viable" characters.



Well, he is broken as hell in melee ntsc so I'm not too upset.

Really far from sucking in any smash installment though, probably best overall character in the series. I'm assuming you're either a troll or just casual af

I would agree in the case of MK, but not really with Fox. Even then, landing mixups exist.

 

[FoxBrawler269]

Well, he is broken as hell in melee ntsc so I'm not too upset.

Really far from sucking in any smash installment though, probably best overall character in the series. I'm assuming you're either a troll or just casual af

He is not the best character overall in the series because of how awful he is in brawl and 4. The honor of best character in the series overall would probably go to Marth.
And coming from a Ryu main that means a LOT. You don't want Fox buffed because of his reflector. It keeps Ryu from just running around shooting fireballs and then killing at 40% with TSRK.

 

[Zelder]

I can't wait for the two page back and forth where someone clearly lists out all the reasons that Fox is amazing in Smash 4, which will be responded to with "nuh uh".

Double Edit: I actually don't even want to encourage this dumb line of thought.

 

[Sonicninja115]

He is not the best character overall in the series because of how awful he is in brawl and 4. The honor of best character in the series overall would probably go to Marth.
And coming from a Ryu main that means a LOT. You don't want Fox buffed because of his reflector. It keeps Ryu from just running around shooting fireballs and then killing at 40% with TSRK.

........really?!? this isn't an arguement.

On the topic of true things. ZELDA is OP/BROKEN BAN ZELDA

 

[wedl!!]

Stop it. We don't need to have this thread to become more of a circlejerk than it usually is.

 

[IkeTyson]

Are you serious? Fox has been awful ever since melee. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Fox needs to return to his former glory.

Fox is literally probably top five. What are you talking about?

He has an amazing projectile that forces approaches, but the main draw is his speed, combo ability, and kill ability.

Fox is so fast. He can run around and zone break everything you try to do and start his amazing damage racking. Utilt combos for forever. Uair? What are you smoking. Uair is absolutely amazing. Fair sets up jab locks and crap, and bair is one of the better aerials in the game. No lag and amazing auto cancel frames. He escapes bad situations with ease through fall speed and nair, and many of his staple moves in past games are STILL amazing, like nair and dash attack.

His kill ability? Top tier. Falling nair to usmash? And just plain running usmash? You can't mess up vs Fox or he will kill you ridiculously early. Dair combos, uair is super reliable. His edge guarding is great.

Only weakness is recovery if you ask me, and that's been bad in every game anyway.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Fox is literally probably top five. What are you talking about?

He has an amazing projectile that forces approaches, but the main draw is his speed, combo ability, and kill ability.

Fox is so fast. He can run around and zone break everything you try to do and start his amazing damage racking. Utilt combos for forever. Uair? What are you smoking. Uair is absolutely amazing. Fair sets up jab locks and crap, and bair is one of the better aerials in the game. No lag and amazing auto cancel frames. He escapes bad situations with ease through fall speed and nair, and many of his staple moves in past games are STILL amazing, like nair and dash attack.

His kill ability? Top tier. Falling nair to usmash? And just plain running usmash? You can't mess up vs Fox or he will kill you ridiculously early. Dair combos, uair is super reliable. His edge guarding is great.

Only weakness is recovery if you ask me, and that's been bad in every game anyway.

It is generally agreed that at best, Fox is top 5. Worst, top 10. end of discussion.

 

[FoxBrawler269]

Fox is literally probably top five. What are you talking about?

He has an amazing projectile that forces approaches, but the main draw is his speed, combo ability, and kill ability.

Fox is so fast. He can run around and zone break everything you try to do and start his amazing damage racking. Utilt combos for forever. Uair? What are you smoking. Uair is absolutely amazing. Fair sets up jab locks and crap, and bair is one of the better aerials in the game. No lag and amazing auto cancel frames. He escapes bad situations with ease through fall speed and nair, and many of his staple moves in past games are STILL amazing, like nair and dash attack.

His kill ability? Top tier. Falling nair to usmash? And just plain running usmash? You can't mess up vs Fox or he will kill you ridiculously early. Dair combos, uair is super reliable. His edge guarding is great.

Only weakness is recovery if you ask me, and that's been bad in every game anyway.

Are you for real? What about down b? What about up throw up a air? Do a bit of research before you say a bunch of stupid crap.

 

[hypersonicJD]

>Fox.
>Not good in Smash 4.

Also, I don't want to return to Shine: The character.

 

[Y2Kay]

Are you for real? What about down b? What about up throw up a air? Do a bit of research before you say a bunch of stupid crap.

This ain't melee dawg

 

[Wintropy]

Yoshi is in the same vein as Pacman, Villager, and Wario are.

Yea, they got some great tools but thrive mostly on being good at keep-away and can't kill you/generate advantage reliably when they need to. Because of this they're on the lower end of of the "viable" characters.

To what extent does Wario Waft mitigate Wario's weaknesses, though? Wario may have difficulty getting the kill when it counts, but he's an expert at the keepaway game, and when he's got the Waft on-deck he just needs to win neutral once and boom - you're dying at 80%.

I don't think you can ever count out a character with that potent a nuclear option, and it's something that neither Pac-Man nor Villager can boast. Pac's got his hydrant-fruit setups and Villager will just keep you out until you make a mistake and eat a tree or bowling ball, but Wario doesn't really need to set things up to the same extent. He just has to exist until there's a good opening.

Without Waft yeah he's a bit underwhelming. Pitiful range, weak damage output, poor reward per hit and no good kill setups. With Waft he's all of that with a nuke under one arm. Not a world-ending threat the same as the top-tiers, but definitely not somebody you can ever sleep on.

 

[G. Stache]

For some reason Sakurai thinks Zard can't fly well(assuming b/c of Palutena's guidance) which is strange if you ask me.

To be fair seismic toss, his u throw, only does 11 damage. Therefore, we can conclude that Charizard is only level 11. Plus, only weak Charizard's show off/taunt according to the anime, so maybe we're just using a really weak zard. I can only imagine what level M2 is on. That being said, I'd expect a flying type to have more airspeed than the likes of jiggly and Pika

What? All I'm saying is Fox sucks. He is nowhere near as good as he was.

This isn't as much a reply to you as much as a reply to these types of posts in general. If you don't like fox in this installation of smash, yet you love fox in melee/pm, then what's the point of playing this game instead of melee? Honestly, complaining about it on an online forum isn't going to be of much use (I learned this the hard way). Fox is an extremely good character that's easily top ten. If you learned how to use this fox instead of trying to pull off tricks from melee, it'd be more worth your time.

 

[Ffamran]

We went through this already... If someone posts basically nonsense or clickbait, do not respond in any way. This goes for everyone new and old. We already dealt with the Captain Falcon jab incident. We don't need to deal with the Smash 4/Brawl < Melee Fox ruckus.

>Fox.
>Not good in Smash 4.

Also, I don't want to return to Shine: The character.

Not picking on you, but any posts like this and if I had the power, you'd have at least an infraction by now.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

To be fair seismic toss, his u throw, only does 11 damage. Therefore, we can conclude that Charizard is only level 11. Plus, only weak Charizard's show off/taunt according to the anime, so maybe we're just using a really weak zard. I can only imagine what level M2 is on. That being said, I'd expect a flying type to have more airspeed than the likes of jiggly and Pika

Then why the hell is he not a Charmander?! Charizard evolves from Charmeleon at level 36, and Charmeleon evolves from Charmander at 16.

Goddamnit Sakurai, you can't even evolve your Pokemon right!

 

[meleebrawler]

So I guess Lucas sucks compared to Brawl because he cannot go ham with aerials on shield. And Mewtwo is worse than in Melee since he can't wavedash or do most DJ cancel combos.

When a character is supremely dominating in one game, the inevitability of the nerf hammer in the next installment can lead some people to believe that character is now trash no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented. It almost happened with this game's Meta Knight.

 

[Y2Kay]

Then why the hell is he not a Charmander?! Charizard evolves from Charmeleon at level 36, and Charmeleon evolves from Charmander at 16.

Goddamnit Sakurai, you can't even evolve your Pokemon right!

He's clearly using a game shark

 

[wedl!!]

I'd rather have the Falcon jab guy than this kid. At least he had (awful) reasons as to why he thought Falcon jab wasn't good instead of babbling about nothing.

On this subject, I suspect that MARTH_IS_BAE, this Fox guy, and IkeTyson are all puppet accounts made by one person.

 

[Routa]

Without Waft yeah he's a bit underwhelming. Pitiful range, weak damage output, poor reward per hit and no good kill setups. With Waft he's all of that with a nuke under one arm. Not a world-ending threat the same as the top-tiers, but definitely not somebody you can ever sleep on.

Basically Jiggly the Harley Davidson Edition.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So I guess Lucas sucks compared to Brawl because he cannot go ham with aerials on shield. And Mewtwo is worse than in Melee since he can't wavedash or do most DJ cancel combos.

When a character is supremely dominating in one game, the inevitability of the nerf hammer in the next installment can lead some people to believe that character is now trash no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented. It almost happened with this game's Meta Knight.

Same could be said for Marth in this game (just ask someone like QGuy_Brian) and Diddy (though this was all pre-patch).

Also, DunnoBro , in response to your last paragraph, that distinction would be held by Pikachu. Never has he ranked below the Top 10 of any game by this point (and he's very likely to rise in the next Melee tier list).

I'd rather have the Falcon jab guy than this kid. At least he had (awful) reasons as to why he thought Falcon jab wasn't good instead of babbling about nothing.

On this subject, I suspect that MARTH_IS_BAE, this Fox guy, and IkeTyson are all puppet accounts made by one person.

What about Radical Larry?

 

[hypersonicJD]

We went through this already... If someone posts basically nonsense or clickbait, do not respond in any way. This goes for everyone new and old. We already dealt with the Captain Falcon jab incident. We don't need to deal with the Smash 4/Brawl < Melee Fox ruckus.


Not picking on you, but any posts like this and if I had the power, you'd have at least an infraction by now.

Alright then. I won't post this kind of comments anymore. Because you are right. I just noticed that this doesn't help the thread to advance.

 

[DunnoBro]

Also, DunnoBro , in response to your last paragraph, that distinction would be held by Pikachu. Never has he ranked below the Top 10 of any game by this point (and he's very likely to rise in the next Melee tier list).

Being top 10 isn't a big achievement in 64 lol

Ratio-wise, they're about the same. And fox was the best character in a much larger cast. You could argue for either though which is why I only said "probably."