Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[TTTTTsd]

Being top 10 isn't a big achievement in 64 lol

Ratio-wise, they're about the same. And fox was the best character in a much larger cast. You could argue for either though which is why I only said "probably."

Nah he's not just Top 10 in 64. He's outright the best. Pika has never been bad in Smash ever and I don't know how. Rats = key to success? Though to note, nobody is bad in 64 and even the worst (Luigi) can 0 to death you fairly easily. It's a....game (one of my favs).

Also while I think Smash 4's balance is OKAY (not great) I think 64 is easily the most balanced but only due to small roster size and mechanics. The order basically goes 64 > Smash 4 > Melee > Brawl IMO, debatable but it's how I feel.

 

[DunnoBro]

Not a world-ending threat the same as the top-tiers, but definitely not somebody you can ever sleep on.

I mean this is exactly what I said lol

They're good characters but lack the fundamental ability to go "Okay, I need to play this way right now"

Nah he's not just Top 10 in 64. He's outright the best. Pika has never been bad in Smash ever and I don't know how.

I'm aware, but it still came across as just trying to word his history in a more positive light. Top 10 in 64 means almost nothing, means pretty little in melee too.

 

[Sinister Slush]

To add a small bit to the previous Yoshi discussion on the last page before Ryu vs Yoshi.
Yoshi's always been about smoke and mirrors since a good portion of his moves contorted with his hurtboxes in brawl and still does in Smash 4 too. Hell even when people complain about Fair being big (when realistically it's the same size as brawl's) he also extends his hurtbox too, so it's possible to trade smashes with this move that's most likely just gonna stage bounce you.

Also Yoshi's jump is terrible, short hop at least. Just doing that is a huge commitment and puts you in disadvantaged state most of the time, kuyashi...
I'd honestly trade being able to have fall speed like D3 or Falcon than the momentum and floatiness of jigglypuff.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I mean this is exactly what I said lol

They're good characters but lack the fundamental ability to go "Okay, I need to play this way right now"



I'm aware, but it still came across as just trying to word his history in a more positive light. Top 10 in 64 means almost nothing, means pretty little in melee too.

I suppose, but I think Pika's consistency is definitely worth noting anyways as he's one of the few Smash characters to boast that. It's quite impressive! It's also kind of weird that it took this long for Nintendo's poster boy (Mario) to be as good as he is in this game. I guess they finally deliberately powered him up.

 

[Sonicninja115]

How much did the recent patch help Yoshi? It seems like Dair got a huge buff from the shieldstun.

 

[Wintropy]

I mean this is exactly what I said lol

They're good characters but lack the fundamental ability to go "Okay, I need to play this way right now".

Oh, I know, and I didn't mean to diminish what you said.

I'm just saying that I think Wario has an undeniable edge over them, which is why I question if he can be considered at the lower end of viable.

I guess Pac and Villager have so many good tricks that it about evens out, since Wario's a bit naff except for the ability to confirm into a kill at 80% every two minutes, but maybe I'm just exaggerating how potent a threat the Waft is.

 

[wedl!!]

Yoshi is a character who like hitting shields a lot so being able to do it more freely is a bonus for him (although he was already fairly safe). Doesn't solve his grab/reward issues, though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

How much did the recent patch help Yoshi? It seems like Dair got a huge buff from the shieldstun.

It's noticeably better on shield but you can block it until your shield diminishes too low and shield drop (I THINK) and just take the additional damage in favor of not having shield broken.

But with exactly how effective it is + Yoshi's airspeed it's kind of hard to conventionally land because now people don't shield around Yoshi as much. When an option is as strong as that it can sometimes have a reverse effect. (At least I don't shield a jumping Yoshi as much as I used to...)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Nah he's not just Top 10 in 64. He's outright the best. Pika has never been bad in Smash ever and I don't know how. Rats = key to success? Though to note, nobody is bad in 64 and even the worst (Luigi) can 0 to death you fairly easily. It's a....game (one of my favs).

Also while I think Smash 4's balance is OKAY (not great) I think 64 is easily the most balanced but only due to small roster size and mechanics. The order basically goes 64 > Smash 4 > Melee > Brawl IMO, debatable but it's how I feel.

Pikachu's core design seems to be "small + fast", both of which are good things to be in Smash. Add in projectiles and amazing recovery, and he ticks most of the boxes.

 

[Sinister Slush]

How much did the recent patch help Yoshi? It seems like Dair got a huge buff from the shieldstun.

Pretty much only Dair and this

Yoshi is a character who ends up hitting shields a lot so being able to do it more freely is a bonus for him (although he was already fairly safe). Doesn't solve his grab/reward issues, though.

If people wanted to know the block advantages now, Zapp was kind enough to do Yoshi's.
http://smashboards.com/threads/colo...scussion-and-tips.395715/page-6#post-20514428

 

[Sonicninja115]

It's noticeably better on shield but you can block it until your shield diminishes too low and shield drop (I THINK) and just take the additional damage in favor of not having shield broken.

But with exactly how effective it is + Yoshi's airspeed it's kind of hard to conventionally land because now people don't shield around Yoshi as much. When an option is as strong as that it can sometimes have a reverse effect. (At least I don't shield a jumping Yoshi as much as I used to...)

If people don't shield as much around Yoshi, can't you take advantage of it? We Shulk Mains adapt to the opponents shielding habits to get either an aerial, grab or smash depending on No Shield, Shield and spotdodge.

You might be able to take advantage of the opponents fear and punish them for it. (Not quoting Batman)

 

[DunnoBro]

How much did the recent patch help Yoshi? It seems like Dair got a huge buff from the shieldstun.

Enough to make him actually viable and not just "secretly top 5 but actually barely, maybe viable"

The main things are:

Fair can't be punished OoS by stuff like sheik/diddy fair or mario usmash.
Dair can't be shield dropped. (allows for breaks on 85~% shields)
Egg Roll can't be punished oos by as many characters. Making it a good landing coverage option vs the majority of the cast. (Avoid absurd dash attackers or high travel speed projectiles)

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also I see Wario discussion and talking about how he has an edge, I think there's something very important to consider.

Of all the characters that two stock could benefit, I think Wario's really high up there. Just with regards to what kind of a move Wario Waft is, it's just incredibly good in a two stock metagame, it'd still be good in 3 stocks but it's much more prevalent and powerful in a metagame where one use of it cuts your opponent's lifespan in half, effectively.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Wait does Yoshi's egg count as 2 hits? I never really play him but I can see this being a bit of an obstacle for Ryu.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Wait does Yoshi's egg count as 2 hits? I never really play him but I can see this being a bit of an obstacle for Ryu.

I depends, is the Egg and the explosion a hitbox? i think it is just the egg.

 

[DunnoBro]

It's two hitboxes. One for the egg, one for the explosion. (1%)

A few projectiles do this, DH's can has 3 hitboxes for some reason. (And a windbox why)

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Bair and sweetspot Nair work too, but Charizard's real strength lies in punishing get ups. At the ledge, Rock Smash, Down Smash, and Reversed Up-Smash cover all 4 getup options, all can kill, and each one covers two at a time, (Rock Smash beats neutral and attack, Down Smash beats neutral and roll, and Up-Smash beats neutral and jump.)

I'm not too aware of Zard's edge-guarding options, but would a b-reversed Rock Smash be able to cover 3 options? I know reversing it causes the rocks to hit in front of and behind Charizard, though it probably still has the same effective range...if spaced well, would it beat roll in addition to attack and neutral?

 

[LightLV]

..it isn't overrated, in any fighting game, and those with slow startups tend to have slow cooldowns as well, so...?

Little Mac fits the "pressure opponent until they crack" notion of a glass cannon for sure. But he can't really do much if the opponent can stay away.

What Mewtwo goes for is the ability to cover options, there's hardly a thing that Mewtwo can't answer with in neutral. Try to stay away with projectiles? They either get reflected or blown away by a big shadow ball. Space him out in the air? Bair is gigantic, and uair has wide range too. Rush him down on the ground? Dsmash and dtilt are relatively low-commitment and good-ranged options to stop that.

There is a clear goal behind Mewtwo's design, and that is to stop any offence your opponent tries while getting your damage in. He is not meant to close in and pressure with combos, even if he IS capable of that too.

A glass half-empty person may bemoan that each of Mewtwo's individual options aren't as good as some others, but you know the same is true of Mario.

Lol, well...a very strong case could be made opposite that for Mario. He's supposed to be the "middle" character but he's stronger in his weak areas than many characters are supposed to be built around...

Mewtwo can cover options, but his problem is that he doesn't cover them efficiently enough to warrant his poor survivability. He's just another common case of being too cautious when trying to create an extreme character.

don't get me wrong, Little Mac has the same problem in a different flavor. But it's not quite as bad as Mewtwo's imo.

 

[bc1910]

Marth missed an entire game. Best character in the series, spanning all 4 games, is either Fox or Pikachu.

Anyway, Zard's edge game. It's actually very good, as others have pointed out. A legitimate consideration when fighting him. Bear in mind that with good timing, anything that beats neutral getup can also beat jump.

 

[KenMeister]

Same could be said for Marth in this game (just ask someone like QGuy_Brian) and Diddy (though this was all pre-patch).

Also, DunnoBro , in response to your last paragraph, that distinction would be held by Pikachu. Never has he ranked below the Top 10 of any game by this point (and he's very likely to rise in the next Melee tier list).



What about Radical Larry?

Radical Larry is a special snowflake. Don't even compare him to those frauds.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Are you for real? What about down b? What about up throw up a air? Do a bit of research before you say a bunch of stupid crap.

Just because Fox isn't as good as he was in Melee doesn't mean he's not a good character. He was mid tier in Brawl and he's high tier with a possibly of eventually becoming top tier in this game; how is that bad?

 

[LancerStaff]

This doesn't come up often for obvious reasons, but I'm curious as to who has the overall best walk. Marth's is kinda meh because his acceleration is tied for worst in the game (0, with Robin) and unless you're Melee Falco you're not just walking across the entire stage. Meanwhile Samus of all characters has the highest walking acceleration at 3 (Or was it 0.3? Kinda irrelevant anyway...) and average walking speed. For comparison the next best acceleration is 2, a 25-way tie with most of the perceived fast characters, and for the lower half it slowly scales down from 1.9 to 0. Presumably there's other factors like traction at play because Samus doesn't seem to accelerate incredibly fast, whereas Pit is really twitchy even though he's a 2.

 

[FoxBrawler269]

Look. Everyone in the whole game needs buffs except for one character. Zuper stupid spandex.

ZSS is setting the bar right now for where everyone needs to be. Every other character is less viable than ZSS, some more so than others, but that fact remains.

Fox being "pretty good" in this game doesn't warrant, "no buffs for Fox lawlz." But at the end of the day Fox deserves buffs just as much as Samus (she sucks). Try to understand me here.

If ZSS is the most viable, everyone else is less viable. Therefore everyone deserves buffs, and I don't think Sheik deserves these buffs any less than Samus just because she is better.

She isn't on ZSS's level. I don't base my opinion of Fox needing buffs on, "He was bad in Brawl (better than he is now though...) or, "He needs to be a Melee God again." I'm basing it on, Fox isn't the same character he once was, and he can't compete with ZSS.

Fox needs his staples returned to glory. Maybe not Melee glory, but if they balanced him to where he was equally viable as ZSS, they should balance him by returning staples to him, even if they nerf them slightly.

You all are saying Fox doesn't need buffs and everyone else does. If everyone else gets buffed and not Fox it will literally be like -20XX. Fox will be bottom tier if we don't do something.

 

[Antonykun]

Look. Everyone in the whole game needs buffs except for one character. Zuper stupid spandex.

ZSS is setting the bar right now for where everyone needs to be. Every other character is less viable than ZSS, some more so than others, but that fact remains.

Fox being "pretty good" in this game doesn't warrant, "no buffs for Fox lawlz." But at the end of the day Fox deserves buffs just as much as Samus (she sucks). Try to understand me here.

If ZSS is the most viable, everyone else is less viable. Therefore everyone deserves buffs, and I don't think Sheik deserves these buffs any less than Samus just because she is better.

She isn't on ZSS's level. I don't base my opinion of Fox needing buffs on, "He was bad in Brawl (better than he is now though...) or, "He needs to be a Melee God again." I'm basing it on, Fox isn't the same character he once was, and he can't compete with ZSS.

Fox needs his staples returned to glory. Maybe not Melee glory, but if they balanced him to where he was equally viable as ZSS, they should balance him by returning staples to him, even if they nerf them slightly.

You all are saying Fox doesn't need buffs and everyone else does. If everyone else gets buffed and not Fox it will literally be like -20XX. Fox will be bottom tier if we don't do something.

that is some of the the most trollish logic i have ever seen
Fox isn't that much worse than ZSS

 

[LancerStaff]

Wouldn't nerfing the entire top 25 or so be a better solution then buffing all but one character?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wait, since when was ZSS better than Sheik?

 

[Zannabluke]

why, WHY you guys keep giving him attention
hold your zingers for once, goddamn

 

[Drarky]

On the subject of walks, Mega Man's a pretty odd one (how unexpected) since FTilt transitions to NAir/Jab can be pretty good and rising NAir is safe on shield, and the fact that it's a projectile safe to throw out helps a lot. But then we got his other moves...

DTilt is okay. It covers a good area, beats rolls and his legs are intangible, sadly it still is too slow and the end lag is pretty bad for a "tilt". The fun part is compared with UTilt, this move is fast af.

UTilt it's terrible as a move to throw out randomly. The sourspot gets you punished on low % and the endlag is the one of a fatty Smash.

So you have a pretty good FTilt, okay DTilt, terrible UTilt when it comes down to walking options in the neutral, but his FTilt can be very versatile so that kinda compesates for the other moves... I guess?

Mega Man main mechanic makes him so weird to compare to other characters sometimes

 

[FoxBrawler269]

that is some of the the most trollish logic i have ever seen
Fox isn't that much worse than ZSS

But he is still worse (and I think by quite a bit). If ZSS can have that kill combo, Foz can at least have uthrow uair.

Wouldn't nerfing the entire top 25 or so be a better solution then buffing all but one character?

I am not a fan of nerfs. Is anyone? People put time into their characters and shouldn't be punished. Worse characters would gladly take buffs to compensate for he gap instead.

 

[Smog Frog]

i know i'm biting bait but is far more consistent at getting grabs than , so having a early % kill confirm out of a grab means more for him than it does for her

honestly if he got an early % kill combo out of a grab we'd be back to pre 4/15/15 days

 

[LightLV]

why, WHY you guys keep giving him attention
hold your zingers for once, goddamn

Sad thing is, he's telling the truth. Nobody is going to put up a compelling argument to prove him wrong.

You can argue that Shiek can be more or less equal to ZSS, but there is no denying that they are OBJECTIVELY better characters than the rest of the cast. Mobility, damage, confirms, kill potential, neutral, recovery, hell shiek even zones better than characters who are built on projectiles.

 

[LancerStaff]

I am not a fan of nerfs. Is anyone? People put time into their characters and shouldn't be punished. Worse characters would gladly take buffs to compensate for he gap instead.

I think most of us playing good characters would gladly take a hit to them for having everybody else good being worse. It'd be hard to say such a balance change outright hurt anybody but the absolute best characters... Meanwhile buffing everybody means that matchups are more extreme, and also meaning that characters that inherently lose to a certain design such as Fox's lose harder now because he's getting much more reward.

 

[ARGHETH]

Sad thing is, he's telling the truth. Nobody is going to put up a compelling argument to prove him wrong.

You can argue that Shiek can be more or less equal to ZSS, but there is no denying that they are OBJECTIVELY better characters than the rest of the cast. Mobility, damage, confirms, kill potential, neutral, recovery, hell shiek even zones better than characters who are built on projectiles.

Wait, so are you agreeing that everyone needs to be buffed to ~ZSS level or not? Because from what I could tell, that was the main point of his post (well, that and "why isn't Fox Melee Fox").

 

[DunnoBro]

why, WHY you guys keep giving him attention
hold your zingers for once, goddamn

I have the sass of a giant black woman you can't contain me

 

[meleebrawler]

Lol, well...a very strong case could be made opposite that for Mario. He's supposed to be the "middle" character but he's stronger in his weak areas than many characters are supposed to be built around...

Mewtwo can cover options, but his problem is that he doesn't cover them efficiently enough to warrant his poor survivability. He's just another common case of being too cautious when trying to create an extreme character.

don't get me wrong, Little Mac has the same problem in a different flavor. But it's not quite as bad as Mewtwo's imo.

Well, at least Mewtwo doesn't get screwed (not more than most anyway) if he picks the wrong stage.

 

[Nobie]

I think Fox is exactly in the place he should be in Smash 4 in terms of viability, function, and strengths relative to other characters.

He's either high tier or top tier. His inherent qualities (speedy combo character with extreme ground mobility and high fall speed) carry both advantages and disadvantages. While he doesn't have the all-purpose Shine anymore, it can still be used in certain situations. Most importantly, his up smash is a quick kill move, but it kills at a reasonable percent, relative to Fox's speed.

The only issue with Fox was that dumb one-two jab repeat, and thankfully they patched that out.

 

[Jams.]

I'd rather have the Falcon jab guy than this kid. At least he had (awful) reasons as to why he thought Falcon jab wasn't good instead of babbling about nothing.

On this subject, I suspect that MARTH_IS_BAE, this Fox guy, and IkeTyson are all puppet accounts made by one person.

Let's not vilify MARTH_IS_BAE for a few poorly reasoned posts. He provided reasoning, and conceded that his initial reasoning was incorrect after some well-reasoned posts by some of the better posters here. I find this pretty rare and respectable in online forums, where many users will stubbornly hold onto their opinion regardless of what anyone else says. Also, judging posters by their username is shallow and really only used for ad hominem arguments. I'd like to think my handle is not reflective of the quality of my posts. Let's just forgive and forget.

Marth missed an entire game. Best character in the series, spanning all 4 games, is either Fox or Pikachu.

Anyway, Zard's edge game. It's actually very good, as others have pointed out. A legitimate consideration when fighting him. Bear in mind that with good timing, anything that beats neutral getup can also beat jump.

I don't think Charizard's ledge coverage game is that great. Consider the risk/reward for his options. Flamethrower has almost no risk (it's basically guaranteed) but very low reward; the opponent can just regrab and now Charizard can't use flamethrower anymore. On the other hand, Charizard's high reward coverage options are also very risky: they don't coverage all the options and he will be punished hard if he guesses wrong or doesn't execute. Compare this to characters like Wario, (high aura) Lucario, and ROB who all have low risk high reward options that cover almost all ledge options while not leaving them hugely vulnerable if they fail to execute or the opponent reacts properly. Pac Man (and other characters) may have low risk/high reward ledge set-ups as well, but I'm not informed enough to say for certain. I believe characters such as Mario and Sheik also have better ledge coverage options than Charizard. They can throw out a lingering hitbox to cover ledge jump and regular getup, then run back and dash grab if the opponent chooses to roll, for low risk and medium reward. Someone like Mario can also opt to charge a smash as a high reward low coverage option, and have less risk than Charizard because the low cooldown of his smashes decrease the severity of a potential punish. In the grand scheme of things, Charizard's ledge coverage is good but not great.

Also, I disagree with the last statement you made. Using ROB as a reference, ledge jump is vulnerable from frames 11 to 16; taking airdodge startup frames into consideration, it will be vulnerable until 18+ (no buffering after a ledge jump except item drop IIRC, so players will probably be vulnerable for longer than the optimal scenario). On the other hand, neutral getup is 35 frames and vulnerable on frame 35. This leaves 10+ frames between the time ledge jump is last vulnerable and neutral getup is vulnerable. To my knowledge this data is pretty standardized among the cast with the exception of Miis, which have a noticeably longer neutral getup. Only long lingering hitboxes can reliably cover such a large window. In most cases you will usually be covering either ledge jump or regular getup, not both.

 

[Locke 06]

On the subject of walks, Mega Man's a pretty odd one (how unexpected) since FTilt transitions to NAir/Jab can be pretty good and rising NAir is safe on shield, and the fact that it's a projectile safe to throw out helps a lot. But then we got his other moves...

Rising NAir (cannon hitbox) is not safe on shield. No.


Sidenote: I can't believe I just read that walking is not important. Top players walk ALL the time. Esam walks so that he can always shield needles vs Sheik. Rosa players walk so they have access to dtilt/jab at any moment. Sheik players walk backwards a lot (because her walk speed is 5th fastest and comparable to slower runs).

It's not just good for neutral, Zero does jct banana forward > walk> dsmash a lot. Walking is so important... Especially when jumping is such a commitment.

 

[LightLV]

Wait, so are you agreeing that everyone needs to be buffed to ~ZSS level or not? Because from what I could tell, that was the main point of his post (well, that and "why isn't Fox Melee Fox").

Why not? Would the game not be more balanced?

Or to put the question another way, by disagreeing with him, are you saying it's okay for 2 characters to just be superior to 53 others?

Or are we arguing that Zero Suit and Sheik are actually not the best characters in the game, dominating the top 3 spots of every major?

Yeah, i would rather play a game where nobody has to be worried about an invisible progression ceiling appearing over their heads upon choosing their character because the roster is woefully unbalanced despite multiple balance patches. It's only fair.

Nerfing the top, buffing the bottom, it doesn't really matter either way. Just make it fair. Smash 4 is only marginally more fair than Brawl at this point. The only difference is that ZSS and Sheik aren't Brawl Metaknight level, where they're dominating so badly that it's just painfully obvious others dont stand a chance.

 

[Zelder]

Is this your first fighting game ever? Someone is always going to be at the top, the trick is making the top not too far from the bottom.

edit: and buffing everyone to abusive levels is not the answer to fixing that.