Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[meleebrawler]

I've been saying Yoshi is "meh" for a while now...

Honestly, what does Yoshi have that keeps him in high tier in minds of the general public?

You just can't write off someone that has what arguably amounts to the best aerial mobility in the game, where such a thing is generally a godsend.

 

[Nu~]

You just can't write off someone that has what arguably amounts to the best aerial mobility in the game, where such a thing is generally a godsend.

Best aerial mobility, but still has some problems with being juggled due to his physics.

That can't be the primary reason. There has to be more.

I'm just curious as to why Yoshi is revered.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well you have a point there...
But can't that just prove the skill of the player rather than the character?

Actually, I had sort of the opposite take, in a sense.

From where I was sitting, Nikes made non-trivially more mistakes than anyone else in the top 8. Obviously, he made up for this in other areas--his play was often creative and his reads were remarkable. (He was really great for spectators!)

I don't mean this at all as a discredit to his performance; it's just that the entire time, I was sitting there thinking "Man, if this guy tightens up his game a bit, he'd be a monster."

 

[Radical Larry]

Actually, I believe frame data correlates to:

1) Weight of the Character
2) Mobility of the Character
3) Power of the Attack

Now you might think Shulk is the exception, but remember that Buster Monado gives him a damage buff, thus making his frame data more reasonable. Plus, other than his N-Air and some other attacks, his Frame Data isn't atrocious for a character like him.

But no matter how you look at frame data, you forget the factors that go to play on characters despite frame data. People could pull out an attack frames before an attack with faster frame data would come out. And on another note, people may perceive attacks as slower or faster from player to player, so it's completely objective when you actually play the game.

 

[Ffamran]

One way to think about good/bad frame data is look at how good a character is and their frame data. The high tiers always have fast, safe options. In general the faster a character's frame data is the more likely they'll be a good character.

That or they have really broken as hell options like Triple D in Brawl which you could blame more on the game itself. There are some outliers like Captain Falcon and Ike; Captain Falcon being fairly average outside of jab, but has phenomenal movement and power and Ike is below-average to slow, but hits hard and has good coverage with his moves that sort of do complement his below-average hit speed not to mention how well their moves work together. Then you have the trend defiers like Dr. Mario, Falco, Kirby, and Wii Fit Trainer having good frame data in speed and/or power, but something or somethings severely hold them back from breaking out of mid-tier. Dr. Mario's would be something like poor recovery moves not poor recovery unless I want to incur the wrath of someone and perhaps even because he is another Mario, he suffers from similar problems, Falco's would be a poor mid-range and sometimes long-range game along with random shenanigans like jab being stupid(ly weaker than in Brawl), straight-up worse recovery moves than Fox's, and having the most unreliable kill throws, Kirby's would be poor mobility, and as dead of a (muscular) horse it is, WFT's would be melee range and not a dead horse, but a lively pony, some of WFT's moves are weirdly tuned. For example, WFT's Bair could compete with Falco's except it only has 1 active frame for the clean hit and the hitboxes are split up where if I remember correctly from what Indigo Jean? said, the sweet-spot is on her butt... OF ALL PLACES TO PUT A SWEET-SPOT! Sure, let's make her range look even worse... Considering she does extend her hitbox out for Bair unlike lazy Falco, some slightly tweaks can make her Bair not be overwhelming, but good without having this weird, literal *** hitbox. Another move is Down Smash which is questionably slow and questionably weak even after the buff in patch 1.1.0?

There are also other trend defiers, but in the opposite way. Meta Knight, Rosalina, and Sheik come to mind. Meta Knight and Sheik because on paper, they are really weak, but how their moves synergize with them is what makes them so damn good. Rosalina's also kind of like that where, alone, she's not really that special; Rosalina's frame data even resembles a special princess, Zelda. What changes everything is that she is an archetype not seen in Smash, a puppeteer, summoner, Blue Mage, beastmaster, or what have you. That is what gives her an edge.

Edit: WFT's Bair sweet-spot is her feet.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think Yoshi has options, and not many good players putting time into him.

He could be great, but he needs a year to develop more.

 

[meleebrawler]

Best aerial mobility, but still has some problems with being juggled due to his physics.

That can't be the primary reason. There has to be more.

I'm just curious as to why Yoshi is revered.

Well, the thing is Yoshi has a lot of things that seem amazing on the surface; good weight, high damage per hit, excellent air mobility, decent projectile...

His issues just aren't very apparent unless you actually play him.

So, I sort of screwed up Sheik's Needle Storm recovery frames - no, I didn't screw up simple math while using a calculator. What I screwed up was that unlike other projectiles, Sheik throws out multiple projectiles simultaneously. You might be asking, "But can't Diddy, Link, and Villager do that too?" Here's the difference: she does it with one button press in "one action" in contrast to Link having to pull out a Bomb, throw his Gale Boomerang, and then throw his Bomb. Why does this matter? Well, take a look at her recovery frame for Needle Storm.

With 1 Needle charged or uncharged, she takes 42 frames. Totally normal. "Uncharged", if she throws out 2 Needles, she takes 40, 3 Needles take 38, 4 Needles take 36, and 5 Needles take 35. "Charged", if she throws out 2 Needles, she takes 39, 3 Needles takes 36, 4 Needles take 33, 5 Needles take 30, and 6 Needles take 27. It decrements by a factor of 2 frames for uncharged and 3 for charged. This assumes it's done as close as possible. Add in hit stun, add in more range making recovery matter less since a character has to make their way to Sheik, and add in that Sheik's going to start throwing Needle Storm at frame 5 uncharged and frame 11 charged. Y'know, I can't think of any projectile outside of items? that come out at around frame 5 and while I can think of two projectiles that come out at frame 11, one of them doesn't cause any hit stun, Fox's, and the other does, but involves 40 frames on the ground and 33 frames in the air for consecutive shots, Falco's.

Y'know, it becomes a little silly that a frame 5, 1.9% max to 1.2% min, single Needle can cause hit stun. Now it's even more silly that the more Needles she stacks up, the less recovery she incurs. Other multi-hitting projectiles can "lower" recovery for the user since an opponent is locked into hit stun, but no character can alter how many projectiles they throw at a given time like this. Ryu and Robin can change it so their projectile hits once to a multi-hit, but they can fire off 3 Hadoukens or 4 Thunders at once and while Fox and Falco can fire rapidly, they will always have the same recovery.

The reason projectiles are treated as having 1 active frame is because it would be really annoying to figure out exactly where and when they'll hit. In most cases, projectiles aren't going to or aren't "intended" to hit. When Mario or Ryu use their projectiles, are they really trying to hit? Not really; they're looking to control their zone and challenge you to try and approach them. When Lucario, Luigi, Mewtwo, Robin, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, and ZSS try to hit with their projectiles, they know the risk if they miss, but they know the reward they can get out of hitting with those projectiles. Recovery frames be damned when Lucario, Mewtwo, Samus, or WFT hit you with their projectiles and you die. Recovery doesn't matter when Luigi, Robin, and ZSS can cause enough hit stun they can use it to setup or at least put you in an uncomfortable situation. Item users like Diddy, the Links, and Peach? Recovery matters for them to know when it's safe to pull one out. After that, it's just throw and go. And all of these characters only throw out one projectile in one button press. Recovery is treated as if that's the only hitbox they throw out, but Sheik? Sheik throws out 1 to 6 projectiles and the more she throws out, the less time she takes to recover. It's kind of weird logic since yes, whether or not if misses, she does take 42 frames to recover from that entire action, but if you treat the last projectile as the projectile being thrown in that move, then it's like she's throwing out a high startup and low recovery projectile. Doesn't matter if the first 4 Needles miss if the 5th one is still there and that's the projectile, the hit, the last active frame that matters. Probably poor wording, but I hope people understand what I'm trying to say.

They probably justify the increased frame advantage Sheik gets from multiple Needles simply by virtue of "they have to charge".

Also Mewtwo's Shadow Ball has rather low recovery, which opens up myriad potential uses for both charged and uncharged projectiles.

 

[Big-Cat]

Actually, I believe frame data correlates to:

1) Weight of the Character
2) Mobility of the Character
3) Power of the Attack

Now you might think Shulk is the exception, but remember that Buster Monado gives him a damage buff, thus making his frame data more reasonable. Plus, other than his N-Air and some other attacks, his Frame Data isn't atrocious for a character like him.

But no matter how you look at frame data, you forget the factors that go to play on characters despite frame data. People could pull out an attack frames before an attack with faster frame data would come out. And on another note, people may perceive attacks as slower or faster from player to player, so it's completely objective when you actually play the game.

You're forgetting range. Hence why sword characters, more often than not, have slower frame data than their unarmed counterparts.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You're forgetting range. Hence why sword characters, more often than not, have slower frame data than their unarmed counterparts.

range is more of a sub-category as it doesn't always apply.

 

[L9999]

WFT's would be melee range and not a dead horse, but a lively pony, some of WFT's moves are weirdly tuned. For example, WFT's Bair could compete with Falco's except it only has 1 active frame for the clean hit and the hitboxes are split up where if I remember correctly from what Indigo Jean? said, the sweet-spot is on her butt... OF ALL PLACES TO PUT A SWEET-SPOT! Sure, let's make her range look even worse...

Are you serious? What the devil where the developers thinking?

 

[Locke 06]

Here's another thing: People will talk about how Marth's frame data is so bad because all of the speed of his moves' frame data is loaded at the startup, with high end lag to compensate. However, people will talk about moves with poor initial frame data but excellent cooldown frames with much higher praise. Why do people value recovery time so much more than startup time?

Recovery time is so important because of how strong shields are and the mindset of most smashers. Challenging moves before they come out (or even to trade) is dangerous because if you aren't precise, you will get hit. Factor in WiFi, and it's so much easier to just shield>punish. A lot of moves are unsafe on shield (shield to win the game is the slogan for a lot of smashers).

Edit: also the fact that quick startup moves/things you use to challenge your opponent for pressing buttons aren't usually safe on block means if you ended up challenging a commitment that never happened, you're going to get punished.

Because of this mindset, you have people throwing out low recovery moves in neutral that are safe on block (Mk/villager fsmash) even if they have a lot of startup. The opponent will block and they'll be safe/at an advantage. At high level, in theory, players don't let other players get away with that (see falling aerial vs rising aerial discussion).

Segue into Yoshi: How good is his grounded game? Everyone talks about his aerials combined with his mobility, and the yoshis I know all love to be in the air, but he has a good foxtrot, jab, dtilt, Dash attack (punishable like everyone else's though), and NAir OoS. Why don't you see more Yoshis stay grounded in neutral more? Or am I not watching the right Yoshis (I don't watch many)?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Recovery time is so important because of how strong shields are and the mindset of most smashers. Challenging moves before they come out (or even to trade) is dangerous because if you aren't precise, you will get hit. Factor in WiFi, and it's so much easier to just shield>punish. A lot of moves are unsafe on shield (shield to win the game is the slogan for a lot of smashers).

Edit: also the fact that quick startup moves/things you use to challenge your opponent for pressing buttons aren't usually safe on block means if you ended up challenging a commitment that never happened, you're going to get punished.

Because of this mindset, you have people throwing out low recovery moves in neutral that are safe on block (Mk/villager fsmash) even if they have a lot of startup. The opponent will block and they'll be safe/at an advantage. At high level, in theory, players don't let other players get away with that (see falling aerial vs rising aerial discussion).

Segue into Yoshi: How good is his grounded game? Everyone talks about his aerials combined with his mobility, and the yoshis I know all love to be in the air, but he has a good foxtrot, jab, dtilt, Dash attack (punishable like everyone else's though), and NAir OoS. Why don't you see more Yoshis stay grounded in neutral more? Or am I not watching the right Yoshis (I don't watch many)?

I don't think it is that bad. He also has Eggs and his grab.

 

[Nu~]

Yoshi's grab isn't an option I would brag about though...

 

[Y2Kay]

For example, WFT's Bair could compete with Falco's except it only has 1 active frame for the clean hit and the hitboxes are split up where if I remember correctly from what Indigo Jean? said, the sweet-spot is on her butt... OF ALL PLACES TO PUT A SWEET-SPOT! Sure, let's make her range look even worse... Considering she does extend her hitbox out for Bair unlike lazy Falco, some slightly tweaks can make her Bair not be overwhelming, but good without having this weird, literal *** hitbox.

I believe the comedy factor well makes up for how bad that bair is. Literally the funniest thing I've read all week.

It's unfortunate too, but still.......

 

[Ffamran]

They probably justify the increased frame advantage Sheik gets from multiple Needles simply by virtue of "they have to charge".

Also Mewtwo's Shadow Ball has rather low recovery, which opens up myriad potential uses for both charged and uncharged projectiles.

Fantastic, so other chargeable projectiles like Lucario, the Links, Mega Man, Mii Gunner, the Pits, ROB, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Zelda, and even ZSS's should be left out, but Sheik gets this luxury. Outside of DK's melee-only Giant Punch, Ike's also melee-only Eruption by 1 frame from 46, and Wario's passively charged 110 second Wario Waft, charged hits, Smashes included, either don't change recovery or actually makes them worse like Diddy's Peanut Popgun if you screw up, Samus's Charge Shot which gains 7 recovery frames from 37, Triple D's Jet Hammer going up 10 frames from 48, and Robin's Thunder Tome changing. The problem isn't because "they have to charge", but more of how Needle Storm functions. A way this could be fixed is a set recovery frame like on Fox and Falco's Blaster, but it would be called based on the last Needle thrown rather than when the player stops firing since Sheik automatically throws all her Needles unlike Fox and Falco. Another fix would be an overhaul on her Needle Storm so that she throws them like Fox and Falco, but in that case, you might as well have her use kunai or throwing knives like what's on her Hyrule Warrior's outfit.

Are you serious? What the devil where the developers thinking?

Well, Falco has a body hitbox for his Side Smash and it's never going to freaking land because his hitboxes for his arms are much larger than his body. Doesn't help that his wings sort of grow in size or that his Side Smash is transcendent while Ike and Triple D's aren't despite Ike using an enchanted hand-and-half sword and Triple D using a massive hammer with a jet engine inside of it. There's also the issue of Falco's Dtilt killing despite y'know, it's a freaking pheasant's tail feathers. They could have at least gave him a reasonable animation like hell, give him Captain Falcon's Dtilt animation. At least it looks possible and would fit the range instead of him having a disjoint that's like 1/3 more than his tail's length. There's also the fact he takes forever to put a simple pistol into his holster while Fox can pull a RoboCop faster than Falco realizes he stopped shooting - dumb bird brain. At a certain point, you just accept it or go mad wondering what the hell is going on. Kind of like how the Zelda boards embraced the idea that Din's Fire is such a demonic move that if she were allowed to use it off-stage, Zelda would be SSS-tier.

 

[Ghostbone]

For real like, what point does Yoshi even have for existing, then? Does this mean he loses to all of the top ten fighters?

He beats Fox!
Mario's about even, though there are opinions ranging from like +2 Mario to +2 Yoshi lol.
No idea what Pikachu's like but I can't imagine it's very far in Pika's favour.

 

[C0rvus]

ESAM still thinks very highly of Yoshi for some reason. Though of all top players, his opinions of characters tends to be the most... skewed.

Yoshi's got amazing parameters; heavy but fast on the ground and with the highest air speed in the game for lord knows what reason. His jab and nair are bonkers, and some other moves are pretty okay. He just doesn't flow very well. His moves have few links, and he has no real kill setups that I know of. His grab and throws are awful. Those last two are very damning. He's not bad at all, bit of a scrub-stomping character, so that may warp general views on the poor dino.

 

[Nobie]

Take this with a grain of salt, as I'm not a Shulk main, but I believe one use with Monado Arts is to change how spacing works as Shulk and against Shulk.

The reason I started thinking about this is because I've grown fond of good pivot f-tilts. It's actually a fundamental part of Mewtwo's spacing game, as his massive tail allows him to sweep at incoming opponents. Similarly, Falco's f-tilt is fantastic for pivoting, because it combines range, speed, and decent power.

With Shulk, when you're in normal mode (or most other modes), pivot f-tilts will cause you to slide pretty far. If your opponent is standing still, it's hard to hit with (though if they're moving towards you then they'll probably get hit). Speedo Monado causes him to run and slide crazy far when he pivot f-tilts, so it's better for catching rapid forward movement. Shield Monado causes Shulk to slide the least while doing a pivot f-tilt, but this also means that he's able to better hit a stationary opponent out of it.

All three ranges seem to have their uses, and Smash f-tilt is pretty strong already (can KO at higher percents). With Shield especially, which is generally seen as useless, I could see that plodding pace of it having its uses in this way.

 

[Luco]

For what it's worth, Yoshi and Ness go pretty much dead even (and it wasn't heavily in Yoshi's favour in Brawl, either).

And whilst it may be true that MK beats Yoshi, Nikes showcased that he's still a generally relevant character, and able to overcome a lot of what may be negative MUs. If he only slightly loses to most of the top ten, he may still well be relevant enough for top fifteen, say.

I'm really proud of that kid! Don't tell him that, though. Nikes

Also @Pazx it was a pleasure playing stream monster with you and V.

EDIT: One other thing I noticed, and I think I saw it in doubles but Yoshi's command grab got him out of a few nasty-looking situations when he was trying to get back on-stage. Most people can just shield someone DJ-ing back on and punish the landing but Nikes would respond by chucking them into an egg.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Take this with a grain of salt, as I'm not a Shulk main, but I believe one use with Monado Arts is to change how spacing works as Shulk and against Shulk.

The reason I started thinking about this is because I've grown fond of good pivot f-tilts. It's actually a fundamental part of Mewtwo's spacing game, as his massive tail allows him to sweep at incoming opponents. Similarly, Falco's f-tilt is fantastic for pivoting, because it combines range, speed, and decent power.

With Shulk, when you're in normal mode (or most other modes), pivot f-tilts will cause you to slide pretty far. If your opponent is standing still, it's hard to hit with (though if they're moving towards you then they'll probably get hit). Speedo Monado causes him to run and slide crazy far when he pivot f-tilts, so it's better for catching rapid forward movement. Shield Monado causes Shulk to slide the least while doing a pivot f-tilt, but this also means that he's able to better hit a stationary opponent out of it.

All three ranges seem to have their uses, and Smash f-tilt is pretty strong already (can KO at higher percents). With Shield especially, which is generally seen as useless, I could see that plodding pace of it having its uses in this way.

It mixes up spacing, and changes slide distance. There are methods that can change the slide distance rather dramatically. It seems to be most useful with Usmash tho.

 

[Ffamran]

I believe the comedy factor well makes up for how bad that bair is. Literally the funniest thing I've read all week.

It's unfortunate too, but still.......

Thing is that I don't really know where the hitbox is - I could check, but... SSBwiki says the sweet-spot is on her feet, but considering she scrunches up, I wouldn't be surprised if it really was her butt since she'd be kicking out while scrunched up which contrasts with Falco's clean, straight Bair or Ryu's whip-like Bair where both of them extend fairly quickly and not in a super close position. There's also the fact it's only got 1 active frame for the clean hit... And this is why I think she's weirdly tuned.

The weird thing now that I look at it is that in terms of hitboxes, damage, and knockback, Wii Fit Trainer actually has Wolf's Bair; she doesn't have his recovery, unfortunately though. Falco has Wolf's Bair purely in terms of the kick's animation, but not the entire animation - if PM didn't change anything, then Falco spins after the kick while Wolf spins before the kick not to mention Falco lazily kicking while Wolf extends his leg out - and hit frame and active frame resembling his Melee and Brawl Bair instead of Wolf's which would be insane if Falco's Bair was frame 4, lasted 8 frames, did 13%, and had that much knockback. So, PM Wolf's Bair, assuming nothing's been changed for the animation is this.

Spoiler: PM Wolf Bair gif

The closer you are to him, the weaker the hit is with since I don't remember and I'm too lazy to turn on my Wii and check, according to SSBwiki, Brawl Wolf's Bair does 13% with his left foot, 11% closer to his left thigh, 10% with his right foot which looks like it almost overlaps his left thigh, and 9% with his right knee. In Brawl, it was frame 6-9, 4 active frames, 21 recovery, 29 total frames, 9 landing frames, launched at 361 degrees, did 20 base or 0 for the 9% hitbox, 96 growth or 100 for the 9% hit, and auto-canceled before 6 and after 19. For Falco, his is frame 4-5 clean, 6-11 late, 8 total active, 26 recovery, 37 total, 15 landing, does 13% clean, 6% late, launches at 361 degrees, does 0 base clean or 30 (late), 130 growth clean or 100 late, and auto-cancels before 4 and after 15. Wii Fit Trainer's Bair is frame 5 clean, 6-11 late, 7 total active, 37 recovery, 48 total, 20 landing, launches at 47 with the sweet-spot or 361 elsewhere clean and late, does 13.5% with her feet, but I have no idea exactly when, like is it when her legs are fully extended or when she's chambered? Anyway, 11% with her legs, and 9% with her body clean, 6% late with her legs and body, does 40 base with her feet, 20 with her legs, and 10 with her body clean or 30 with her legs and 20 with her body late, 100 growth for her feet clean and 102 elsewhere clean and late, and auto-cancels before 3 and after 43. Hitbox-wise and damage-wise, WFT's resembles Wolf's more, except it's weirdly tuned where the sweet-spot lasts so little. I mean, I can understand why Zelda's Fair and Bair would have 1 active frame for the clean hit because they're that strong and why certain spikes like Luigi, Mario, Marth, and the Pits because of hitbox placement on specific frames like Mario and Marth's or because they're fairly quick spikes like Luigi and the Pits, but WFT's Bair? There's nothing abusive about it, especially if its hitbox is that close up. If you want abusive, then look no further than at DK, Dr. Mario, and Falco (and Wolf, but he's not in Smash 4... yet). These dirtbags abuse the hell out of their Bairs.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yea but if Wolf gets in smash 4 you know they'll butcher his active frames on bair as well as its range and give it more landing lag.

WFT's bair is pretty good tbh, it's very fast, and any fast kill move that can be used OoS is automatically a viable tool.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yea but if Wolf gets in smash 4 you know they'll butcher his active frames on bair as well as its range and give it more landing lag.

WFT's bair is pretty good tbh, it's very fast, and any fast kill move that can be used OoS is automatically a viable tool.

Imagine how bad wolfs recovery would be in sm4sh.

 

[Ffamran]

Yea but if Wolf gets in smash 4 you know they'll butcher his active frames on bair as well as its range and give it more landing lag.

WFT's bair is pretty good tbh, it's very fast, and any fast kill move that can be used OoS is automatically a viable tool.

No kidding considering what happened to almost everyone having less active frames from Brawl to Smash 4. I could see it end up doing like 11% max if it keeps everything else or if it does 13%, then the knockback is going to be reduced by a lot or given a DK treatment where it has a ton of base, but almost no growth. Landing lag would depend since if say, it has 15 now, but Wolf keeps his auto-cancel or has a good auto-cancel like Fox and Falco's Bair, then it wouldn't really matter. Its recovery isn't all that bad (in terms of brokenness) considering DK's recovers 6 frames earlier, granted, DK's only has 2 active frames to Wolf's 4. In that case, it could be split up or made just frames 6-7.

As for WFT's Bair... Kind of wished it lasted just 1 more frame for the clean hit since it's not the almighty lightning kicks of Zelda or a freaking spike. Otherwise, it's a good move.

Imagine how bad wolfs recovery would be in sm4sh.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually better than Falco's in terms of recovery moves. One, if Wolf Flash, which actually has a full hitbox unlike Falco's, is the same as Smash 4's version, then it's just a 45 degree Fox Illusion with a spike that Wolf could probably abuse stalling like Falco to punish people with a spike and Fire Wolf remains a better Fire Bird which let's say the developers give it Twisting Fox's data... Welp, RIP Falco's Fire Bird... like there was any merit to Fire Bird... Assuming Wolf's attributes are the same, then he'd basically be Roy, but with more ways to recover than just Wolf Flash/Blazer. He'd still suffer from having a low jump, but he also has a wall jump. The only reason his recovery was bad was because of his ledge sweet-spot issues. Otherwise, his recovery in general is pretty decent.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yea but if Wolf gets in smash 4 you know they'll butcher his active frames on bair as well as its range and give it more landing lag.

WFT's bair is pretty good tbh, it's very fast, and any fast kill move that can be used OoS is automatically a viable tool.

WFT also has Deep Breathing to make it stronger, although I don't think it lasts too long. (~10 seconds or something like that?)

Speaking of which, does Deep Breathing give her any extra kill options that don't normally exist? Setting aside the issue with actually landing whatever hit in time. (This not necessarily aimed at you, but anyone who knows WFT in some depth.)

Imagine how bad wolfs recovery would be in sm4sh.

If he inherits Fox and Falco's newfound ability to act out of aerial side special, I don't think it can really be that bad, especially with the threat of a spike on Wolf Flash to give opponents a reason to think twice about intercepting it.

 

[Dre89]

Well congrats. Now almost all of the fatties are obsolete.

You know what happens when you give Mewtwo weight higher than light (and totally not-fanbase pandering powers)?

There are many reasons Mewtwo shouldn't have high weight, but the main reason is that his recovery is just too good. Not even D3's or Charizard's can compare.

I can understand thinking that Mewtwo in his current state is TOO light, but try to see what Mewtwo has compared to others before making knee-jerk requests.

Do Zard and D3 even have better recoveries than DK?

D3 I don't know much about, but I assume it's good because of multi jumps and upb. Zard's doesn't seem better than DK's. DK's recovery is actually really good past low percents, and gets even better at higher percents.

I feel like the only good recovery option Zard would have is sideb above stage if they see the opponent come off-stage.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Do Zard and D3 even have better recoveries than DK?

D3 I don't know much about, but I assume it's good because of multi jumps and upb. Zard's doesn't seem better than DK's. DK's recovery is actually really good past low percents, and gets even better at higher percents.

I feel like the only good recovery option Zard would have is sideb above stage if they see the opponent come off-stage.

Zards isn't that good, but D3's is pretty amazing with super armor.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Pretty sure Zards recovery is good. No one is going to challenge his side b with a non projectile move, they would get obliterated. And even if they're at low percents zard still has two more jumps and an up b with super armour.

 

[Routa]

Pretty sure Zards recovery is good. No one is going to challenge his side b with a non projectile move, they would get obliterated. And even if they're at low percents zard still has two more jumps and an up b with super armour.

Counters, Shulk's Fair, Ryu's Focus Attack etc... But yeah I got your point. I agree with Zard's recovery being hard to challenge.

 

[LightLV]

Well congrats. Now almost all of the fatties are obsolete.

You know what happens when you give Mewtwo weight higher than light (and totally not-fanbase pandering powers)?

There are many reasons Mewtwo shouldn't have high weight, but the main reason is that his recovery is just too good. Not even D3's or Charizard's can compare.

I can understand thinking that Mewtwo in his current state is TOO light, but try to see what Mewtwo has compared to others before making knee-jerk requests.

Well, his current design schema sucks pretty bad. It's one of those situations where he could be tweaked in many different areas, but it's not very clear what kind of character he's even supposed to be.

He can teleport but he isn't particularly mobile, he's got strength but there are far harder hitters, he's extremely light so he's less likely to benefit from Rage, his hurtbox is huge which does nobody any favors, doesn't have the safest moves, ect ect.

He's got alot of strength but not enough to make up for his pitiful weakness, being that the only character that dies faster is Jigglypuff, and THAT probably aint even true because her hurtbox is smaller and she's harder to hit.

He's supposed to be a "glass cannon" type of character, but i'd say Little Mac indirectly fills that niche far better than Mewtwo can. Mewtwo's got some serious damage potential but in a match that's nearly directly offset by his survivability. Little Mac is easy to invalidate but on a flat stage he just outclasses everyone in every way. Being able to gimp him on some BS feels validated because of that.

Which is why i say, either nerf his damage output and make him heavier, or even further buff his kill potential and just make him lighter than Jigglypuff. I don't really know what should happen to him honestly.

I've been saying Yoshi is "meh" for a while now...

Honestly, what does Yoshi have that keeps him in high tier in minds of the general public?

He's got ******** hitboxes and priority. That's about it, really. I don't think he's "meh" in the sense that he's sleeper bad, but he's the type of character to get overrated very easily. He's the type of character who gets off an Uair or kills you with that free ass Fair of his, and you look at the screen and wonder how you died so fast. But it doesn't particularly make him top-tier.

 

[RonNewcomb]

So I decided to attend another tournament, this time Nebulous Prime in NYC. Did better than my last showing, winning 2 and losing 2.

The curious thing was that whenever I went Mewtwo, who I thought was my worse main, I would either win or have close matches, but when I went Mega Man, who I always thought was my stronger character, I got bodied. Part of it might have to do with match unfamiliarity (many more Mega Men than Mewtwos out there), but I have to wonder if there's something that's clicked recently that has allowed me to do better.

I have this strange problem too. I want to assume it's cause my main is a worse character, but... yeah... If you figure it out please share.

"Bad frame data" is something that's a real pet peeve of mine. What makes it bad? To me, it's mostly a case by case thing with no real objective answer because the frame data really depends on the playstyle of the character. Like, Sheik with Bowser's frame data makes her terrible, but the same goes the other way around because Bowser is a giant cotton ball with all that weak damage.

Is it a pet peeve because it's not precise enough, or because you think frame data is overrated? I'm unclear on your meaning.

..it isn't overrated, in any fighting game, and those with slow startups tend to have slow cooldowns as well, so...?

 

[Nikes]

Actually, I had sort of the opposite take, in a sense.

From where I was sitting, Nikes made non-trivially more mistakes than anyone else in the top 8. Obviously, he made up for this in other areas--his play was often creative and his reads were remarkable. (He was really great for spectators!)

I don't mean this at all as a discredit to his performance; it's just that the entire time, I was sitting there thinking "Man, if this guy tightens up his game a bit, he'd be a monster."

Oh man, of all the times for the world to see my Yoshi it had to be that one set. >__> That's going to leave a dent...anyway.

I feel really out of place saying anything in this thread, but i'll just put out my two cents on this odd occasion since I was tagged in here.

The MK MU isn't as bad as what was seen there, but I do firmly believe it to be 60:40 in MK's favor at least. Due to Yoshi's heavy floaty nature he's the ideal weight for MK to easily combo off of, and the floatiness and bigger model hurts his ability to escape the Uair chain with DI, particularly if the MK is mixing up his directions on the Uairs or if he has forward momentum-he can chase Yoshi no matter his DI. This is something Ghostbone and I have discussed before after playing the matchup in countless friendlies, Winners and Grand Final sets.
Yoshi has to be creative and get hard reads because he doesn't have the same options top tiers have like reliable kill setups or combos, he has to work for and create them himself to be successful and keep up with them. Not having a good grab or throw like most of the cast does really severely hurt him, but fortunately his amazing mobility and command grab balances this out somewhat.

He's got ******** hitboxes and priority.

Genuinely curious, on what exactly? He has short limbs and not a whole lot of range, he has to use his mobility and close combat to compensate for this factor.

 

[LightLV]

Actually, I believe frame data correlates to:

1) Weight of the Character
2) Mobility of the Character
3) Power of the Attack

Now you might think Shulk is the exception, but remember that Buster Monado gives him a damage buff, thus making his frame data more reasonable. Plus, other than his N-Air and some other attacks, his Frame Data isn't atrocious for a character like him.

But no matter how you look at frame data, you forget the factors that go to play on characters despite frame data. People could pull out an attack frames before an attack with faster frame data would come out. And on another note, people may perceive attacks as slower or faster from player to player, so it's completely objective when you actually play the game.

Some clarification

Frame data traditionally refers to the speed, actives and saftey (either by blockstun or cancel frames) of moves in fighting games, since all of this is determined primarily by values in the hitboxes themselves. It has nothing to do with weight or mobility, in Smash 4 this is on a by-character basis and has more to do with the physics engine.

Since the defensive values in Smash 4 have been basically destroyed, frame advantage is more or less moot in this game. The most important aspects in this sense are cancel frames and range, which is why low landing lag characters are generally always top-tier in Smash and are DEFINITELY dominating the meta in this game because there are no special autocancel gimmicks anymore.

Thus, someone having "bad frame data" in the context of smash brothers almost always refers to 1) the speed of the attack coming out and 2) its autocancel frames, which also directly determine how safe said move is. Of course this is omitting things like range and hitbox size. That usually goes under the discussion of "Priority" in fighting games, but in smash it tends to mean whatever people want it to mean for some reason.

Frame data isn't always a damning thing, for instance someone could have terrible startup frames but very high range to compensate. However in Smash 4 this is even less the case because Shieldpush is a value that has, for all intents and purposes, been deleted from the game, making autocancel and active speed even more important than it was before. This is also why this game has more Shieldstun than Melee, but you'd be hardpressed to tell unless someone explicitly told you.


It's no mystery then that every character that's objectively considered "top tier" in smash has extremely fast aerials, low landing lag, lenient autocancel frames, and have things like aerials that come out in 2-3 frames and end fast enough to throw out 2 or even 3 before landing in a single jump arc....and then land and throw out a 2-3 frame startup jab or some dumb ****.

Genuinely curious, on what exactly? He has short limbs and not a whole lot of range, he has to use his mobility and close combat to compensate for this factor.

Fair has a maaaaasssssssive hitbox for a spike, his Fsmash shifts his hurtbox in pretty wild ways and extends pretty far. In fact alot of his attacks have pretty odd animations and shift his body in exaggerated ways.

And to top it off he's pretty fast. He can just be really confusing to someone who isn't aware of the MU.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

For real like, what point does Yoshi even have for existing, then? Does this mean he loses to all of the top ten fighters?

Using the oft-used criteria for Top 10 (Sheik, ZSS, Rosa, Pika, Ryu, Mario, Sonic, Fox, Ness, MK, Diddy), I'll give exactly my opinions on these MUs.

Loses to Sheik (duh, who doesn't?)
ZSS is thrown around the bush, though I think this could be slightly in ZSS's favor
Beats Rosa probably (though with Raptor vs Dabuz at SSC, maybe we were wrong)
Goes even with Pika (initially I believed this to be Yoshi's second worst MU, but in recent days, I may have been thinking too pessimistically).
Beats Ryu (hold no regrets)
Goes even with Mario
Seagull thinks Yoshi beats Sonic, though I don't know what to say for myself
Beats Fox
Goes even with Ness
Ghostbone is such a soul-crusher
Loses to Diddy

I mean, with a spread like this, I see no reason why he would fall into obscurity results not withstanding. All I would like to see is more rep and better play.

 

[Amadeus9]

Oh man I forgot about rosa lol. Yeah that matchup seems not fun for rosa. Any thoughts on Yoshi vs Fox in general? I've heard fox loses but I've never had it explained.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, his current design schema sucks pretty bad. It's one of those situations where he could be tweaked in many different areas, but it's not very clear what kind of character he's even supposed to be.

He can teleport but he isn't particularly mobile, he's got strength but there are far harder hitters, he's extremely light so he's less likely to benefit from Rage, his hurtbox is huge which does nobody any favors, doesn't have the safest moves, ect ect.

He's got alot of strength but not enough to make up for his pitiful weakness, being that the only character that dies faster is Jigglypuff, and THAT probably aint even true because her hurtbox is smaller and she's harder to hit.

He's supposed to be a "glass cannon" type of character, but i'd say Little Mac indirectly fills that niche far better than Mewtwo can. Mewtwo's got some serious damage potential but in a match that's nearly directly offset by his survivability. Little Mac is easy to invalidate but on a flat stage he just outclasses everyone in every way. Being able to gimp him on some BS feels validated because of that.

Which is why i say, either nerf his damage output and make him heavier, or even further buff his kill potential and just make him lighter than Jigglypuff. I don't really know what should happen to him honestly.

Little Mac fits the "pressure opponent until they crack" notion of a glass cannon for sure. But he can't really do much if the opponent can stay away.

What Mewtwo goes for is the ability to cover options, there's hardly a thing that Mewtwo can't answer with in neutral. Try to stay away with projectiles? They either get reflected or blown away by a big shadow ball. Space him out in the air? Bair is gigantic, and uair has wide range too. Rush him down on the ground? Dsmash and dtilt are relatively low-commitment and good-ranged options to stop that.

There is a clear goal behind Mewtwo's design, and that is to stop any offence your opponent tries while getting your damage in. He is not meant to close in and pressure with combos, even if he IS capable of that too.

A glass half-empty person may bemoan that each of Mewtwo's individual options aren't as good as some others, but you know the same is true of Mario.

 

[Y2Kay]

Umm, guys all of zard's recovery moves are armored. It's not bad by any means. The only thing holding him back is his bad air mobility.

 

[Trifroze]

Regarding Yoshi having the best aerial mobility, I'd argue Wario beats him and quite a few characters can match it. The term is thrown a bit loosely with fall speed completely left out of the picture. Yoshi's horizontal aerial pressure is pretty ridiculous but he doesn't cover vertical space/distance all that rapidly, neither with his jumps or his fall speed. I think at least ZSS and Greninja can contest him because what they lack in aerial speed or accel/decel, they gain in jump height and fall speed.

Related, walking definitely has to be the least relevant mobility area. Your walk needs to be really good or your moveset really specific for walking to even matter.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yoshi's horizontal aerial pressure is pretty ridiculous but he doesn't cover vertical space/distance all that rapidly, neither with his jumps or his fall speed.

I don't see how yoshi's double jump isn't an exceptional vertical distance tool.
Yoshi's one of the few characters that can actually cover high recoveries from someone like diddy cos he can get up there quickly and almost match Diddy's side-b momentum.

 

[Amadeus9]

Regarding Yoshi having the best aerial mobility, I'd argue Wario beats him and quite a few characters can match it. The term is thrown a bit loosely with fall speed completely left out of the picture. Yoshi's horizontal aerial pressure is pretty ridiculous but he doesn't cover vertical space/distance all that rapidly, neither with his jumps or his fall speed. I think at least ZSS and Greninja can contest him because what they lack in aerial speed or accel/decel, they gain in jump height and fall speed.

Related, walking definitely has to be the least relevant mobility area. Your walk needs to be really good or your moveset really specific for walking to even matter.

Man, when a walk is good though, you can really feel it in how a character plays neutral. Which doesn't say much really cause the only top tier with a really good walk is mk lol. For real tho love mks walk.