Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Baby_Sneak]

Options...you can say that about basically every character.

Are they good options? Are they safe on shield? The issue here is that G&W doesn't have a solid plan in neutral to play out the game. He gets solid reward for winning neutral but doesn't have the neutral strength to win it consistently.

He HAS the tools to win it. Dtilt is good poking tool. Ftilt is a lingering wall. Dash attack is a sudden burst option. His aerials have their own uses for mixing it up. He's given the tools to do it absolutely. It's just his neutral options can be outclassed by range, startup, and shield. Shield is GnW's biggest enemy I think.

 

[FlynnCL]

I like meteor talks. When a patch was released I wanted to test if teching grounded meteors still existed. I used Ganondorf as a lab partner since his down-aerial's increased hitlag made it easier to test on my own. I could never get it to work. I was eager to spread around this information until I doubled checked with another fighter (Ike), but I hit that tech every single time.

It must be due to the hitlag but Ganondorf's down-aerial definitely follows different rules than other grounded meteors. I believe Falco also shared this property with his down-aerial (as it had a hitlag modifier of 2.0) but they changed it.

Falco Pre 1.0.8 - a frame 16-18 hitbox with a trajectory of 285 (0x11d).

Post 1.0.8 - it's now frame 16-19, but a duplicate was added with a trajectory of 80 (0x50) for grounded interactions only.

Since many users said that Falco's down aerial was untechable even before it changed, it makes me wonder why they changed it.

There are a lot of down-aerials in this game that have different interactions depending on whether or not you're grounded. In fact, out of every DLC fighter we've had only 1 of them can meteor grounded opponents: Lucas with his down-aerial (his back-aerial cannot, though). In most cases this is a good thing; Ryu's down-aerial meteor working on grounded opponents doesn't sound very helpful to him, as it's a lot stronger than his non meteor down-aerial (in damage, base knockback and growth) with an undesirable trajectory compared to 84.

That's kinda all I have to really say. Looking around for more examples I stumbled upon Mewtwo's data for his down-aerial.

I had no idea they shoved a frame speed multiplier on this attack. I'm glad they did, because this meant Mewtwo's down-aerial hit on frame 19 at one point in development and auto-cancelled the same frame as his neutral-aerial (aka, goodbye short hop auto cancel).

The data also shows that Roy had a frame 13 forward aerial during development too, which probably would've prevented you from double jumping out of it in a short hop.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Just like the post above me says, both Ganon and Falco have untechable GROUNDED dairs. If ur hit from the air to the stage tho, u can tech it. There is even a Ganon thread based on this.

 

[Aaron1997]

Just saw Choco vs Abadango... Abadango made Zss vs mk look like 80-20 match-up

 

[Djent]

Like, I know MK mains think ZSS is a bad MU and all. But...I don't believe them. Both characters are playing an awkward neutral game (the usual for MK, but ZSS hates his stature), though the edge still goes to ZSS. But then MK wins out in punishes big time. I think Cassio may have been right when he called it in the bat's favor, though it could also be even.

 

[Thinkaman]

If hitting a frame 2 window was impossible, powershielding intentionally would not be possible.

 

[Ulevo]

ZSS has certain luxuries in that match up other characters do not, but I have suspected for a long time that it is more or less close to even. A lot of match up rumors have circulated regarding Meta Knight for a long time that have little legitmacy, and one of those is this match up being 3:7. ZSS is afforded a slightly stronger neutral and safer recovery in the match up while Meta Knight is afforded a stronger punish game with more kill opportunities. As long as you are not going to certain stages it should be fine.

 

[Thinkaman]

Congrats to our very own Ghostbone for conquering the rest of aussieland this weekend, with a mix of MK, Diddy, and Sheik. Thanks to his victory, we'll be seeing him at Genesis 3!

 

[MachoCheeze]

Congrats to our very own Ghostbone for conquering the rest of aussieland this weekend, with a mix of MK, Diddy, and Sheik. Thanks to his victory, we'll be seeing him at Genesis 3!

Is Yoshi v MK as bad as Nikes made it seem or does he just have a mental block against the character?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Is Yoshi v MK as bad as Nikes made it seem or does he just have a mental block against the character?

I felt like Nikes was super flustered in that set. MK does have the slight advantage, 55:45, but Nikes just was opening himself up too much and it looked unwinnable.

 

[Jamurai]

Yoshi:MK is pretty even I believe. There's plenty of videos of this matchup available and it doesn't seem like there's much of a swing either way at all.

Also I definitely wouldn't say MK wins out significantly in punishes vs ZSS. Our fall speed makes us fairly easy to combo and we are susceptible to deadly shenaigans which only work on certain characters such as Bthrow > Flip Kick near the edge. The matchup is about +1 to ZSS imo; taking what Trifroze said earlier, she doesn't win the matchup hugely or anything but it's also the fact that it's hard to play out and you have to be very careful, concentrated and patient. Somewhat similar to Yoshi actually in that regard.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

erm

Not sure where your claims are coming from, Palutena's recovery is quite good and her Warp is a lot quicker on both start and end than Farore's Wind. Players like IceNinja put in the work to learn recovery angles that eliminate the 2 frame too, making it completely safe.

Are you sure that explosion is constant for every frame it's active, and not a rehit?
The claim is coming from myself, a Palutena main, and I also know about something as simple as snapping the ledge from above. That makes the ledge snap itself invincible, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes the rest of the warp invincible.

I've been hit mid-flight many times, whether it be someone charging a smash on stage (when I try to warp past them), or for example falcons throwing dairs and bairs off stage mid-flight. That is, I disappear visually, but am still hit before my destination (the ledge, and I am not hit right where you grab the ledge either, nor the point where you initiate the warp, but *between*, where the opponent's hitbox is placed). If you check KuroganeHammer, it even lists Warp as "invisible", not "invincible" (let alone "intangible"), while characters like Mewtwo and Zelda have "intagibility" frames instead, and I never experienced being hit mid-flight with theirs.

I'd like you to explain how I'm still getting hit if it is invincibility, or why the data says it's invisibility only. Whether you snap the ledge from above or not to get rid of the 2 frame vulnerability when snapping the ledge doesn't matter when I'm not being hit at the ledge, unless if Warp has similar properties to Quick Attack, which would be most surprising.

 

[UberMadman]

Are you sure that explosion is constant for every frame it's active, and not a rehit?
The claim is coming from myself, a Palutena main, and I also know about something as simple as snapping the ledge from above. That makes the ledge snap itself invincible, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes the rest of the warp invincible.

I've been hit mid-flight many times, whether it be someone charging a smash on stage (when I try to warp past them), or for example falcons throwing dairs and bairs off stage mid-flight. That is, I disappear visually, but am still hit before my destination (the ledge, and I am not hit right where you grab the ledge either, nor the point where you initiate the warp, but *between*, where the opponent's hitbox is placed). If you check KuroganeHammer, it even lists Warp as "invisible", not "invincible" (let alone "intangible"), while characters like Mewtwo and Zelda have "intagibility" frames instead, and I never experienced being hit mid-flight with theirs.

I'd like you to explain how I'm still getting hit if it is invincibility, or why the data says it's invisibility only. Whether you snap the ledge from above or not to get rid of the 2 frame vulnerability when snapping the ledge doesn't matter when I'm not being hit at the ledge, unless if Warp has similar properties to Quick Attack, which would be most surprising.

So I got curious and decided to test your claim just now. I attempted to warp into a Smart Bomb ONSTAGE instead of at the ledge, and Palutena didn't get hit until she reappeared. I attempted this multiple times, each with the same result, and then for curiosity's sake I attempted it with an X-Bomb, warping through one of the pillars. Palutena managed to make it to the other side of the X-Bomb completely unscathed. I don't know what to tell you, she is straight up invincible once she disappears until she reappears.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

So I got curious and decided to test your claim just now. I attempted to warp into a Smart Bomb ONSTAGE instead of at the ledge, and Palutena didn't get hit until she reappeared. I attempted this multiple times, each with the same result, and then for curiosity's sake I attempted it with an X-Bomb, warping through one of the pillars. Palutena managed to make it to the other side of the X-Bomb completely unscathed. I don't know what to tell you, she is straight up invincible once she disappears until she reappears.

I appreciate the testing. I guess KuroganeHammer might just be wrong, but I also know I've been hit mid-flight somehow, so there's something up, and until I find out why I'm going to continue to play and advise others to be weary of it.

Edit: I guess it might be that the invinc is shorter than the invis, so it looks like I'm being hit mid-flight (being hit before I become visible, but after the invinc). Still don't quite think it's accurate to say I'm being hit at the destination though, closer to the destination perhaps than midway but before the destination nonetheless.

 

[Routa]

I remember someone asking characters that have followups from projectiles. Well both Doc and Mario can follow up their Big Pill/Fireball with a Shocking Sheet/Cape that deals 29% damage (if you get every hit of the projectile) and kill at about 85%. But this you can only follow up with the Shocking Sheet/Cape if you get all the hits of the projectile. This is useful at covering some get up options.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So I hear that MK Leo actually pulled out Mewtwo for some important matches, might be a new secondary. Very interesting for him to think he needs a secondary and to pick Mewtwo at that. Anyone think they can sort the logic behind that pick?

 

[TTTTTsd]

So I got curious and decided to test your claim just now. I attempted to warp into a Smart Bomb ONSTAGE instead of at the ledge, and Palutena didn't get hit until she reappeared. I attempted this multiple times, each with the same result, and then for curiosity's sake I attempted it with an X-Bomb, warping through one of the pillars. Palutena managed to make it to the other side of the X-Bomb completely unscathed. I don't know what to tell you, she is straight up invincible once she disappears until she reappears.

As someone who regularly punishes teleports in friendlies I can safely say this is accurate. The only time you'll be hit out is during startup or cooldown, more the former than the latter personally. But you can NOT intercept teleports during their travel velocity making them very good for clutch mixups if you do it right.

The phenomenon you may be experiencing is getting hit during late startup frames which is pretty dejecting, but it's something people are gonna figure out. It's also why Mewtwo does indeed have the best teleport in the game, he gains invincibility the fastest, after all! By this logic I imagine people are gonna start punishing Zelda's teleport too. It's only intangible at Frame 22 at earliest, good lord!

 

[warionumbah2]

He pulled out a Roy and Ike(a commentator asked him to use Ike) against Hyuga too, the moment he drops a game or 2 he goes MK and wins. Mewtwo is just really fun to use.

He doesn't have a serious secondary.

Edit: He 3-0'd Javi then 3-0'd Hyuga convincingly with MK, he was in GFs WS so he had nothing to lose.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Since many users said that Falco's down aerial was untechable even before it changed, it makes me wonder why they changed it.
There are a lot of down-aerials in this game that have different interactions depending on whether or not you're grounded. In fact, out of every DLC fighter we've had only 1 of them can meteor grounded opponents: Lucas with his down-aerial (his back-aerial cannot, though). In most cases this is a good thing; Ryu's down-aerial meteor working on grounded opponents doesn't sound very helpful to him, as it's a lot stronger than his non meteor down-aerial (in damage, base knockback and growth) with an undesirable trajectory compared to 84.

Falco's grounded d-air definitely WAS techable before the change. Un-patched base version on my 3DS.
Have a non-techable d-air is a very big deal, Sakurai is using it as a balance feature since it makes the difference between guaranteed combos and no guarantee. It was a full-stop buff to Falco, coinciding with his n-air combo buff.
Falco was considered weak, they buffed him, this is one of the buffs.
The "king of combos", Ryu, could not be "king" if his d-air was techable and ryu gets a huge amount of follow ups from his d-air, with piles of kill confirms, not just SRK (take neutral fierce for instance).
Sakurai is explicitely using the not-guaranteed nature of the spike as a balance mechanism.
Samus would benefit enormously from non-techable grounded spikes.
It's frankly a very stupid and frustrating balance mechanism. It's my belief as well that pre-production versions had MUCH more hitstun coming out of large hits like the grounded spikes, you can see this in training mode where the counter will call a combo at high percents but in reality the opponent has plenty of time to air-dodge. This has led to the current situation which is that spiking an opponent on stage is not only no-guarantee, but the follow ups are also not guaranteed, it's way too many opportunities for the defender, and they're trivial "mash shield button" get-out-of-jail that any 2 year old with a turbo controller could avoid while the setup and follow ups require skill. The balance is not right. He really screwed up there.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Falco's grounded d-air definitely WAS techable before the change. Un-patched base version on my 3DS.
Have a non-techable d-air is a very big deal, Sakurai is using it as a balance feature since it makes the difference between guaranteed combos and no guarantee. It was a full-stop buff to Falco, coinciding with his n-air combo buff.
Falco was considered weak, they buffed him, this one one of the buffs.
The "king of combos", Ryu, could not be "king" if his d-air was techable and ryu gets a huge amount of follow ups from his d-air, with piles of kill confirms, not just SRK (take neutral fierce for instance).
Sakurai is explicitely using the not-guaranteed nature of the spike as a balance mechanism.
Samus would benefit enormously from non-techable grounded spikes.
It's frankly a very stupid and frustrating balance mechanism. It's my belief as well that pre-pro-duction versions had MUCH more hitstun coming out of large hits like the grounded spikes, you can see this in training mode where the counter will call a combo at high percents but in reality the opponent has plenty of time to air-dodge. This has led to the current situation which is that spiking an opponent on stage is not only not guaranteed, but the follow ups are also not guaranteed, it's way too many opportunities for the defender, and they're trivial "mash shield button" get-out-of-jail that any 2 year old with a turbo controller could avoid while the setup and follow ups require skill. The balance is not right. He really screwed up there.

Yes, unfortunately on-stage meteors are indeed quite bad. Samus Dair would be a million times better if you couldn't tech and on-stage meteors combo'd properly. The most noticeable benefactors would be, in no order, Samus, Zelda....I can't think of any others, really, those are two characters who I think would stand to gain the most from this. IIRC Diddy can AC his Dair from a shorthop if he doesn't fastfall, maybe it'd give him stuff too. No clue.

Oh, and while I'm a bit late, congrats Ghostbone for doing well in tournament! I didn't get to see any of it unfortunately, but I wish you luck at Genesis 3!

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Falco's grounded d-air definitely WAS techable before the change. Un-patched base version on my 3DS.
Have a non-techable d-air is a very big deal, Sakurai is using it as a balance feature since it makes the difference between guaranteed combos and no guarantee. It was a full-stop buff to Falco, coinciding with his n-air combo buff.
Falco was considered weak, they buffed him, this is one of the buffs.
The "king of combos", Ryu, could not be "king" if his d-air was techable and ryu gets a huge amount of follow ups from his d-air, with piles of kill confirms, not just SRK (take neutral fierce for instance).
Sakurai is explicitely using the not-guaranteed nature of the spike as a balance mechanism.
Samus would benefit enormously from non-techable grounded spikes.
It's frankly a very stupid and frustrating balance mechanism. It's my belief as well that pre-production versions had MUCH more hitstun coming out of large hits like the grounded spikes, you can see this in training mode where the counter will call a combo at high percents but in reality the opponent has plenty of time to air-dodge. This has led to the current situation which is that spiking an opponent on stage is not only no-guarantee, but the follow ups are also not guaranteed, it's way too many opportunities for the defender, and they're trivial "mash shield button" get-out-of-jail that any 2 year old with a turbo controller could avoid while the setup and follow ups require skill. The balance is not right. He really screwed up there.

I mean, I'm fine with being able to tech aerial meteors, but the fact that you can tech grounded ones is a design decision I never fully fathomed.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Falcon would get guaranteed knee setups and a few others, mostly low-tiers that need buffs, but really the game would be better.
It's smash, I want to see things bounce around the screen. That's a big part of the fun!?!

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well you see, we've removed meteor cancelling, a mechanic I thought was kinda silly. So now that we're one step up...GROUNDED METEOR TECHING. Right back down! Although I guess it's a bit less absurd, I'm still confused as to why it's a mechanic, and why even if it wasn't, on-stage meteors having like no stun is weird (the AD window is ridiculous, dunno why). I imagine it's a side effect of design around certain stages that have hazards you could bounce into a lot, I dunno.

I guess the reason the grounded meteors thing doesn't bother me nearly as much is because compared to characters with offstage meteor setups/reads, on-stage meteors that are safe in this game are incredibly minimal in comparison.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yoshi:MK is pretty even I believe. There's plenty of videos of this matchup available and it doesn't seem like there's much of a swing either way at all.

I don't see how it's at all even.
I've played vs the other top Yoshi in Aus and beat him most of the time as well. Nikes plays bad against me but even a Yoshi putting up a fortress with fairs, eggs, d-tilts and jabs can't stop MK from hitting him.
The problem that Yoshi has is that his shield sucks, so MK gets easy dash attacks. And since Yoshi is so floaty, he also gets d-throw > uair chain > death'd (plus floaty characters are super easy to do the combo on and it works earlier, so you're not likely to mess up if you don't react to their DI properly). And characters that get reliably killed off grabs by MK typically do very bad vs him because grabs are easier to land and always send them the same distance (well DI obviously changes it but it's not like you hit them out of the air or on the ground or while they're crouching like with dash attack)

And this is just talking about the kill combo, past that, MK can cover Yoshi's double jump recovery really well with nair or bair, stutter stepped f-smash (going backwards) destroys a spaced fair from yoshi (where in neutral or him trying to double jump on stage), and because Yoshi's so floaty he's pretty susceptible to just getting u-smashed as he tries to land.

 

[Vipermoon]

Remember that some combos wouldn't work if meteors weren't meteors on grounded opponents. There would be less hitstun because of less knockback.

Why less knockback? Meteors don't send grounded opponents as high as the same move with vertical knockback would. This is because it sends them down first. So meteoring a grounded opponent provides a lot of knockback but not much distance. Hence the closer to Melee levels of hitstun you see in these situations.

 

[Smog Frog]

yknow, if smash is capable of physics such as the floor absorbing some of the force from a meteor smash, you'd think there'd be a little extra damage from faceplanting into the ground...

but oh well.

speaking of which, how crippling a flaw is low weight? most of the top tiers are on the light side, so weight being cited as a large reason for his low perceived placement is perplexing. is there more?

 

[meleebrawler]

yknow, if smash is capable of physics such as the floor absorbing some of the force from a meteor smash, you'd think there'd be a little extra damage from faceplanting into the ground...

but oh well.

speaking of which, how crippling a flaw is low weight? most of the top tiers are on the light side, so weight being cited as a large reason for his low perceived placement is perplexing. is there more?

A large hurtbox and not being as floaty as most contributes to him getting hit by more true combos than other of his weight class (but also means he does not die off the top as soon as you may think), plus being somewhat weak against strong rushdown in a meta currently dominated by such characters conspire to make winning tourneys with him consistently tough. He does possess the means to beat them for the most part, he just suffers more than most from mistakes.

People just focus on the weight because you don't need to play him to state that as being bad.

 

[David Viran]

Like, I know MK mains think ZSS is a bad MU and all. But...I don't believe them. Both characters are playing an awkward neutral game (the usual for MK, but ZSS hates his stature), though the edge still goes to ZSS. But then MK wins out in punishes big time. I think Cassio may have been right when he called it in the bat's favor, though it could also be even.

Was this match in pools? Also another question, are Japanese tournament pools always bo1?

 

[Mario766]

Yes.

Japanese still like Bo1s even in bracket too. It took a LONG time for them to change.

 

[bc1910]

There's low weight and then there's being nearly as light as Jigglypuff.

I happen to agree that low weight isn't much of a weakness, and certainly not as big of one as Sakurai seems to think considering the top tiers have always tended toward being light. Low weight doesn't matter if you don't get hit and the fast, light characters tend to have speedy moves, good movement specs and strong neutral games that make them difficult to hit. This massively offsets the weight disadvantage. On top of this, light characters tend to be small anyway and thus are naturally harder to hit.

Enter Mewtwo, who is not only EXCESSIVELY light, but also a big target without particularly good movement specs or frame data. Mewtwo is not hard enough to hit to offset the weight disadvantage in the same way as other light characters. This is why his weight is such a big weakness; it's actually exploitable, unlike the typical fast 'n' light top tier who you can't hit very easily.

 

[teddystalin]

Was this match in pools? Also another question, are Japanese tournament pools always bo1?

It was very early in bracket, so it was a Bo3.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's low weight and then there's being nearly as light as Jigglypuff.

I happen to agree that low weight isn't much of a weakness, and certainly not as big of one as Sakurai seems to think considering the top tiers have always tended toward being light. Low weight doesn't matter if you don't get hit and the fast, light characters tend to have speedy moves, good movement specs and strong neutral games that make them difficult to hit. This massively offsets the weight disadvantage. On top of this, light characters tend to be small anyway and thus are naturally harder to hit.

Enter Mewtwo, who is not only EXCESSIVELY light, but also a big target without particularly good movement specs or frame data. Mewtwo is not hard enough to hit to offset the weight disadvantage in the same way as other light characters. This is why his weight is such a big weakness; it's actually exploitable, unlike the typical fast 'n' light top tier who you can't hit very easily.

Important to note, though, that even if his weight is something that holds him back, it still doesn't prevent Mewtwo from being able to play his game. It's one thing to say that light weight makes Mewtwo a poor character; it's another to act as if he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

His frame data isn't great because he has range and disjoints, a key factor in balancing the Swordfighter archetype. He is not meant to close in and mix it up in close quarters, despite his capable combo game and mobility, rather said mobility is used to keep him out of harm's way while he dishes out safe, higher than average damage. This style of play is encouraged even more by his Shadow Ball and Confusion, two moves that discourage the usual exploitation of the Swordfighter's weakness vs. gunners.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm going to flip the argument and state that Mewtwo can play his game, sure, but it's a lot less sustainable than those who do it better or those who do it slightly worse but afford less size or risk. I'd argue his low weight makes playing his game take more effort and yields considerably less reward.

His mobility is also only average. Air speed is nice but his air accel (the most important part about air mobility) is actually terrible and only small points away from being on par with Ryu's. He has very high top air speed but he can't weave at all unlike other characters who can throw out even better disjoints for more damage and less risk. To demonstrate the importance of air accel, Doc has a higher max air speed than Toon Link but TL weaves a lot more. His accel is NOTICEABLY higher.

Basically I think the character would be able to complete his game and actually do more stuff if the risk/reward wasn't so heavily skewed against him, it's unarguable at this point that it is.

 

[bc1910]

Important to note, though, that even if his weight is something that holds him back, it still doesn't prevent Mewtwo from being able to play his game. It's one thing to say that light weight makes Mewtwo a poor character; it's another to act as if he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

His frame data isn't great because he has range and disjoints, a key factor in balancing the Swordfighter archetype. He is not meant to close in and mix it up in close quarters, despite his capable combo game and mobility, rather said mobility is used to keep him out of harm's way while he dishes out safe, higher than average damage. This style of play is encouraged even more by his Shadow Ball and Confusion, two moves that discourage the usual exploitation of the Swordfighter's weakness vs. gunners.

Your points are all true, however you're missing the main point. The original discussion was around why Mewtwo's weight is such a big issue when weight isn't typically a major weakness.

Mewtwo does have redeeming qualities to make up for his weight, however they are not as effective as the redeeming qualities of other characters with low weight. That's pretty much fact, since he'd be top tier or at least high tier otherwise. His frame data isn't great - fine, he has range, power and disjoints. But his particular strengths don't save hi from getting hit as much as they would need to for him to be a high tier threat.

Note that I don't think Mewtwo is bad. I think he's quite good. Just clearly worse than most of the other featherweights.

 

[Rizen]

Weight isn't the only factor but it can be very important. Like with Link, I've tanked a Ryu upB at 90-something % and lived. If Link was a middle weight he'd be a significantly worse character. There are a lot of benefits to more weight.
One way to improve characters like G&W (and Mewtwo) would be to boost their weight. Light weight means you can't afford to take many hits or trade. You have to deal proportionally more damage and unless you have a stupidly good punish game like ZSS, that's a big factor. In my experience playing G&W, he would be a solid mid tier if not for his weight. IMO he's "underwhelming" currently. The problem is he dies at 80% and the opponent's alive past 140%. He also has trouble killing

 

[ILOVESMASH]

M2's weight in it of it self isn't a large issue, but the problem is exacerbated by some Mewtwo's other issues (poor hitboxes on most of his non tail attacks, a mediocre grab that can't even hit some characters like Kirby, a horrendous tumble animation, Teleport being unable to snap the ledge unless precisely spaced, poor traction, etc.). These issues mean that the amount of times your going to hit m2 is significantly higher than characters like Sheik or Pikachu.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm going to flip the argument and state that Mewtwo can play his game, sure, but it's a lot less sustainable than those who do it better or those who do it slightly worse but afford less size or risk. I'd argue his low weight makes playing his game take more effort and yields considerably less reward.

His mobility is also only average. Air speed is nice but his air accel (the most important part about air mobility) is actually terrible and only small points away from being on par with Ryu's. He has very high top air speed but he can't weave at all unlike other characters who can throw out even better disjoints for more damage and less risk. To demonstrate the importance of air accel, Doc has a higher max air speed than Toon Link but TL weaves a lot more. His accel is NOTICEABLY higher.

Basically I think the character would be able to complete his game and actually do more stuff if the risk/reward wasn't so heavily skewed against him, it's unarguable at this point that it is.

Well it's a good thing he has confusion and teleport to alter his aerial trajectory, then.

Your points are all true, however you're missing the main point. The original discussion was around why Mewtwo's weight is such a big issue when weight isn't typically a major weakness.

Mewtwo does have redeeming qualities to make up for his weight, however they are not as effective as the redeeming qualities of other characters with low weight. That's pretty much fact, since he'd be top tier or at least high tier otherwise. His frame data isn't great - fine, he has range, power and disjoints. But his particular strengths don't save hi from getting hit as much as they would need to for him to be a high tier threat.

Note that I don't think Mewtwo is bad. I think he's quite good. Just clearly worse than most of the other featherweights.

I just feel it's necessary to look at the whole picture when discussing how good or bad Mewtwo is. Because as you've said, light weight alone does not a bad character make. Yet many are content to just determine how easily Mewtwo can die in any given scenario and leave it at that, as if there's nothing else he can do. Clearly there is a general lack of understanding around Mewtwo, otherwise LiteralGrill wouldn't have written that article about him.

 

[LightLV]

If hitting a frame 2 window was impossible, powershielding intentionally would not be possible.

Hitting a 2 frame ledge vulnerability with an attack, and intentionally getting a 5-frame perfect shield window (when your shield sensor comes up immediately) are not even remotely the same thing.

By this logic, getting that ledge window off should be more or less as easy as Pshielding attacks. Which we all know isn't even slightly true. Powershielding is so easy on this game it's commonly even done by mistake.

Of course, the argument was never that hitting a 2-frame window was impossible, just that people claiming they've mastered it (especially on recoveries that are super fast with hitboxes and can snap the ledge nearly instantly) are exaggerating.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well it's a good thing he has confusion and teleport to alter his aerial trajectory, then.

I mean, I won't deny either of those, but both of those are still relatively not as good as being able to drift and throw out a disjoint with variable timing. I think Marth is the poster boy for this, he has VERY GOOD air accel which lets him do awesome things with retreating sword attacks. He has other problems but, I'm just going to put it out there.

I don't think Mewtwo's mobility is bad but I don't think it's incredibly good either, for his weight and size respectively. It's all in relatives, but a lot of characters around his level of weight tend to have more impressive mobility specs either on the ground, in the air, or both, and their frames and hitboxes are either the same, less wide, or in most cases a lot smaller.

It's why I feel so strongly about his weight, it feels like the one mis-matched attribute on the character and it really stands out. I won't speak of his overall viability or strength (I don't think incredibly highly of the character but I've fought him on a regular basis and have done more research than most) but certain attributes just don't...line up to me.

L LightLV Powershielding is 3 frames in this game, newest patch bumped it down from 4. So they're relatively the same. We've also seen people hit 1-2 frame Powershields in earlier entries in the series so really, the ledgesnap is probably going to get exploited for blatantly low recoveries considering it's not strictly on reaction, a lot of it involves pre-emptive anticipation. It's just a matter of throwing out the right hitboxes now.

 

[LightLV]

Your points are all true, however you're missing the main point. The original discussion was around why Mewtwo's weight is such a big issue when weight isn't typically a major weakness.

Mewtwo does have redeeming qualities to make up for his weight, however they are not as effective as the redeeming qualities of other characters with low weight. That's pretty much fact, since he'd be top tier or at least high tier otherwise. His frame data isn't great - fine, he has range, power and disjoints. But his particular strengths don't save hi from getting hit as much as they would need to for him to be a high tier threat.

Note that I don't think Mewtwo is bad. I think he's quite good. Just clearly worse than most of the other featherweights.

Yeah, Mewtwo's weight specifically does a very bad balancing act with his strengths. He's far too big and immobile to fly the way he does when hit, and he doesn't really have the stopping power and certainly not the speed to match it.

I think what he's really lacking is good mobility, and it really could have been put in his Teleport ability. He should be a character with mobility rivaling that of Pikachu, perhaps even superior because his hurtbox is so massive in comparison.

He would just be better off as a real heavyweight, honestly. Significantly better off. Rage would be a decent tipping point for his moveset to make him really scary.

But as it stands, he flies farther due to his weight, and reaches the blast zone even faster because of his hurtbox. I'd never, ever pick him for that.