Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[meleebrawler]

This game as a whole encourages heart play. Name me one character that isn't at least somewhat read-dependent. Even Sheik has to 50-50 her kill setups.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin players are contractually obligated to be brain players just by virtue of their temporary equipment. We're gonna be without a special or powerful aerials for a bit so we've got to adapt on the fly. We also have to think when our equipment is going to break so we can be right on it for the discard catch.

That said, Robin embodies all three styles. The aforementioned brain, heart for B-reverse spell mixups and tome/sword discard mixups, and Body for our Fair strings, Arcthunder/Arcfire followups, Dthrow combos including Checkmate, and sourspot Levin Bair and Uair shenanigans. It's a lot to encompass.

 

[meleebrawler]

When your playing a character with weaknesses like Mewtwo, beating the player rather than the (probably) top tier character is the main objective. He also is pretty technical too.

Pretty much all the fatties rely almost solely on heart (but only DK has, fittingly, muscle to back it up).

Still, for a character who generally gets his best results from reads, Mewtwo sure is good at getting into positions to make them.

 

[C0rvus]

Well, I can say I am not one to go into the lab or grind out optimal footstool combos or anything, so I probably am more of a heart player. Huh. Maybe I should play Ganon lol.

I'm a big fan of these theory videos. Love me some critical thinking about competition.

 

[meleebrawler]

Actually, all of the Smash games seem to have their own focus in this regard...

Smash 64 is pretty much mostly muscle, with the game largely based on extending combos as long as possible.
Melee is a balance between muscle and brain.
Brawl is mostly about heart, with a bit of brain for glitch abuse.

Smash 4 seems to have a healthy mix of all three, even if heart is still a bit more prominent than the others.

 

[LancerStaff]

Really disagree with the bolded notion. It's not to say that the majority who almost exclusive plays FFAs doesn't care about balance, but that those people simply do not care about it nearly on the same level as those who play this competitively and whose lives depend on it, who want to one day get to that point, or who just spend a lot of their time on this game because it's their #1 hobby.

I know a thing or two about FFAs, it's a chaotic environment where items and multiple players work as a variable that ties the overall balance closer together because it makes everything else matter so much less. Movement speed, hitboxes and power are the things that matter in FFAs, and reducing Ganondorf's landing lag numbers or making his jab faster has virtually no effect on that game mode, yet it would greatly improve his viability to those players who truly care about it.

Ganondorf has always clearly been one of if not the best in FFAs especially with items, yet he keeps getting buffs in every patch. I don't think it's sustainable to argue the development team doesn't care about 1vs1 balance, I think it's actually a lot more sensible to argue that it's the only thing they do care about post-release. If they cared about FFA balance at all, they would've modified the items at this point rather than making fine adjustments to frame data and damage numbers.

I'll also argue FFA is better the more hilariously broken it is, and it's something Brawl unfortunately did a lot better.

No. That's not true at all. People weren't playing 1v1s in Melee day one, they were playing FFAs like the rest of us. And let me tell you, the super devoted didn't just spring up once 1v1s were really a thing, they were there because of FFAs too. Not every serious player left FFAs, and they still exist today. While having things unbalanced can be fun for awhile, once the reality that getting a few KOs and then spamming IDC for the rest of the match is optimal it destroys the fun of the game. If you want hilariously broken, that's what items are for. They're not really supposed to be balanced... If you want balanced FFAs you play for Glory rules.

No, Little Mac got nerfs and Diddy got buffs specifically for FFAs. How else do you explain them? Dorf isn't the best character either, he wouldn't be getting continual buffs if he were. His poor mobility for getting to items is only barely offset by having powerful aerials for grabbing Smash Balls and how he comparatively gets more from melee items. Ike was hilariously pathetic in all modes on 1.0, for instance. Barely anybody used him... And this was after being considered one of the best FFA characters in Brawl.

 

[Ffamran]

That was interesting to read dude, awesome job.
Um....can you do the same for his Usmash compared to other flip kicks(orsimilar ones) like Fox or Pika or...whoever else that ISNT Mario?
I wanna see how you think his flipkick is compared to the others.

Did something similar recently: http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-337#post-20340481, but mostly focused on why Falco and Pikachu don't have partial invincibility unlike Fox, Kirby, Mii Gunner, and Yoshi. The rundown is this, in terms of speed, Falco, Fox, and Mii Brawler tie for first at 8 frames of startup, Pikachu second at 10, Yoshi third at 11, and Kirby last at 14; in terms of raw power, it's Fox first, Kirby, Pikachu, Yoshi, and Mii Brawler maybe in that order, with Falco last since it's a multi-hit with the last hit doing 12% to everyone's 15% to 14% sweet-spotted and/or clean and Fox's sweet-spotted and clean 16%. In terms of safety, it's Yoshi, Kirby, and Pikachu on one side and Falco, Fox, and Mii Brawler on the other. Falco's just straight-up doesn't have I-frames, so he needs to make sure to hit first or else and while he does have low recovery, high active frames, and fast startup, the lack of I-frames takes it down a notch. Fox and Mii Brawler despite having I-frames on their Up Smash only has them for the clean hit and suffers from 44 (Fox) and 47 (medium Mii) frames of recovery to everyone's ~27 frames and assuming Pikachu's tail is disjointed, it would make sense for him to be part of the safe side. Kirby's Up Smash is the slowest, but offers the most I-frames. Still, his feet don't have that much range like Fox or Yoshi who could probably clip people more easily than Kirby. If were were talking about this like the invincible headbutt Up Smashers, Yoshi and Mii Brawler would be like Mario and Luigi while Kirby is like Mr. Game & Watch where Mario and Luigi hit faster while Mr. Game & Watch hits slower, but otherwise, their Up Smashes are similar. There's even a similar height thing. Fox would be like Wario funny enough due to the high recovery, but otherwise would have an Up Smash that's similar to Dr. Mario and sort of Luigi where it's fast, powerful, and difficult to challenge because of the I-frames. Rosalina would have fit Falco as part of the analogy as being the weaker Up Smash except Falco doesn't have any I-frames, so it doesn't work and there aren't any other headbutt Up Smashers.

Out of all characters, I think is the poster child for the brain category. Her mains are extraordinary dedicated. They take so much time and effort to learn the inside and out of their character to make her function.

Mainly due to her unfortunate design flaws (and series loyalty)



As for myself, I lean heavily towards the description of a heart player. Trickery, mixups, and traps make up the bulk of my playstyle.

Part of me feels like this undermines other characters and their players. Sure, a character like say, Mario doesn't have a lot of tricks, but that doesn't mean Mario players didn't have to do anything unlike say, Peach players, to succeed and/or use their characters at a competent level.

Edit: Apparently, I can't tell the difference between Brawler and Gunner.

 

[Nu~]

Did something similar recently: http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-337#post-20340481, but mostly focused on why Falco and Pikachu don't have partial invincibility unlike Fox, Kirby, Mii Gunner, and Yoshi. The rundown is this, in terms of speed, Falco, Fox, and Mii Gunner tie for first at 8 frames of startup, Pikachu second at 10, Yoshi third at 11, and Kirby last at 14; in terms of raw power, it's Fox first, Kirby, Pikachu, Yoshi, and Mii Gunner maybe in that order, with Falco last since it's a multi-hit with the last hit doing 12% to everyone's 15% to 14% sweet-spotted and/or clean and Fox's sweet-spotted and clean 16%. In terms of safety, it's Yoshi, Kirby, and Pikachu on one side and Falco, Fox, and Mii Gunner on the other. Falco's just straight-up doesn't have I-frames, so he needs to make sure to hit first or else and while he does have low recovery, high active frames, and fast startup, the lack of I-frames takes it down a notch. Fox and Mii Gunner despite having I-frames on their Up Smash only has them for the clean hit and suffers from 44 (Fox) and 47 (medium Mii) frames of recovery to everyone's ~27 frames and assuming Pikachu's tail is disjointed, it would make sense for him to be part of the safe side. Kirby's Up Smash is the slowest, but offers the most I-frames. Still, his feet don't have that much range like Fox or Yoshi who could probably clip people more easily than Kirby. If were were talking about this like the invincible headbutt Up Smashers, Yoshi and Mii Gunner would be like Mario and Luigi while Kirby is like Mr. Game & Watch where Mario and Luigi hit faster while Mr. Game & Watch hits slower, but otherwise, their Up Smashes are similar. There's even a similar height thing. Fox would be like Wario funny enough due to the high recovery, but otherwise would have an Up Smash that's similar to Dr. Mario and sort of Luigi where it's fast, powerful, and difficult to challenge because of the I-frames. Rosalina would have fit Falco as part of the analogy as being the weaker Up Smash except Falco doesn't have any I-frames, so it doesn't work and there aren't any other headbutt Up Smashers.

Part of me feels like this undermines other characters and their players. Sure, a character like say, Mario doesn't have a lot of tricks, but that doesn't mean Mario players didn't have to do anything unlike say, Peach players, to succeed and/or use their characters at a competent level.

I can see how it may have came off that way, but it was more of a way to stress that Samus mains have to work incredibly hard because of how screwed their character is by poor design choices.
They pretty much have to overcome their own character before defeating the opponent.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Did something similar recently: http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-337#post-20340481, but mostly focused on why Falco and Pikachu don't have partial invincibility unlike Fox, Kirby, Mii Gunner, and Yoshi. The rundown is this, in terms of speed, Falco, Fox, and Mii Gunner tie for first at 8 frames of startup, Pikachu second at 10, Yoshi third at 11, and Kirby last at 14; in terms of raw power, it's Fox first, Kirby, Pikachu, Yoshi, and Mii Gunner maybe in that order, with Falco last since it's a multi-hit with the last hit doing 12% to everyone's 15% to 14% sweet-spotted and/or clean and Fox's sweet-spotted and clean 16%. In terms of safety, it's Yoshi, Kirby, and Pikachu on one side and Falco, Fox, and Mii Gunner on the other. Falco's just straight-up doesn't have I-frames, so he needs to make sure to hit first or else and while he does have low recovery, high active frames, and fast startup, the lack of I-frames takes it down a notch. Fox and Mii Gunner despite having I-frames on their Up Smash only has them for the clean hit and suffers from 44 (Fox) and 47 (medium Mii) frames of recovery to everyone's ~27 frames and assuming Pikachu's tail is disjointed, it would make sense for him to be part of the safe side. Kirby's Up Smash is the slowest, but offers the most I-frames. Still, his feet don't have that much range like Fox or Yoshi who could probably clip people more easily than Kirby. If were were talking about this like the invincible headbutt Up Smashers, Yoshi and Mii Gunner would be like Mario and Luigi while Kirby is like Mr. Game & Watch where Mario and Luigi hit faster while Mr. Game & Watch hits slower, but otherwise, their Up Smashes are similar. There's even a similar height thing. Fox would be like Wario funny enough due to the high recovery, but otherwise would have an Up Smash that's similar to Dr. Mario and sort of Luigi where it's fast, powerful, and difficult to challenge because of the I-frames. Rosalina would have fit Falco as part of the analogy as being the weaker Up Smash except Falco doesn't have any I-frames, so it doesn't work and there aren't any other headbutt Up Smashers.

Part of me feels like this undermines other characters and their players. Sure, a character like say, Mario doesn't have a lot of tricks, but that doesn't mean Mario players didn't have to do anything unlike say, Peach players, to succeed and/or use their characters at a competent level.

It seems that you accidentally put mii gunner's up smash in this post instead of mii brawler 's up smash. Mii Gunner's up smash comes out on frame 11, and it does not have any invincibility.

 

[Radical Larry]

It's used like Ike's Nair. Both combo, both are safe on shield and both are very viable approach and sefense options.



Btw about what you said earlier about challenges? When I get a new wii u

Bo5. On a stream. Put up or shut up.

The thing about me is, is that I never actually try or give 100%. But I'll accept your challenge, as long as you got a stream working sometime. Make sure to PM me when that happens.

But ROB's N-Air is nothing like Ike's. Ike's comes out much faster than ROB's and is much safer on shield due to Ike's size in comparison to ROB's. ROB is a free grab if the opponent shields or power shields, but Ike is different in that he'll be able to retreat better than ROB.

 

[C0rvus]

The thing about me is, is that I never actually try or give 100%. But I'll accept your challenge, as long as you got a stream working sometime. Make sure to PM me when that happens.

But ROB's N-Air is nothing like Ike's. Ike's comes out much faster than ROB's and is much safer on shield due to Ike's size in comparison to ROB's. ROB is a free grab if the opponent shields or power shields, but Ike is different in that he'll be able to retreat better than ROB.

R.OB.'s nair can be used pretty safely. I'll find some footage, hold up.

https://youtu.be/PI07ss71yjY?t=1m49s (Trela vs. 8BitMan at STR this year)

I find in general, most R.O.B. players use it as a "stay away from me" move, since it seems to autocancel or have very minimal landing lag, while having a big arcing range.

Earlier in the match, he does land with a nair and gets shield grabbed, but then he gets away with no punish here. Perhaps it can be read and reacted to, but the window seems very small. Regardless, it's a good tool; bit different from Ike's nair, but can be applied similarly. The two characters use it to different ends, of course.

Also wow at those pre-match johns. Very classy.

 

[Trifroze]

No. That's not true at all. People weren't playing 1v1s in Melee day one, they were playing FFAs like the rest of us. And let me tell you, the super devoted didn't just spring up once 1v1s were really a thing, they were there because of FFAs too. Not every serious player left FFAs, and they still exist today. While having things unbalanced can be fun for awhile, once the reality that getting a few KOs and then spamming IDC for the rest of the match is optimal it destroys the fun of the game. If you want hilariously broken, that's what items are for. They're not really supposed to be balanced... If you want balanced FFAs you play for Glory rules.

People weren't playing 1on1s in Melee day one? I played 1on1s in Smash 64 with my friends when I was 7, and I certainly did the same in Melee two years later. I don't follow your train of thought that FFA is the natural mode to go to, let alone the idea that people weren't playing 1on1s without some revolution happening that started it all.

If you want balanced FFAs you're going to keep wanting forever, it's the very definition of imbalance because there's a third party element; it's a mode where your goals are solo-oriented, yet you can team up with several players against one at will. Mario Kart for instance is a game like this, and while I played the series as competitively as it was possible to between 2008-2014, I wouldn't call FFAs balanced. It was balanced in a custom-made team setting, in which case it wasn't an FFA anymore, and the same goes for Smash.

There is no point in determining balance changes based on FFAs when it's a fundamentally unbalanced setting, although undoubtedly it's still a part of their weighing process, unfortunately so, and it's what's going to keep Sheik and ZSS on the top most likely.

No, Little Mac got nerfs and Diddy got buffs specifically for FFAs. How else do you explain them? Dorf isn't the best character either, he wouldn't be getting continual buffs if he were. His poor mobility for getting to items is only barely offset by having powerful aerials for grabbing Smash Balls and how he comparatively gets more from melee items. Ike was hilariously pathetic in all modes on 1.0, for instance. Barely anybody used him... And this was after being considered one of the best FFA characters in Brawl.

Little Mac got nerfs because he was too abusive in FG for being so hard to deal with early on for most players, Diddy got buffs (fixes, to be fair) because he had two dysfunctional moves which didn't need FFA to showcase their dysfunctionality. Surely if balance patches target FFAs you can give better examples and more than two?

Ganondorf is getting buffs is because of his shortcomings in 1on1, and the only reason he's not getting more of them is to keep him from becoming overpowered in FFAs. There's a lot more to suggest it's this way, yet you're claiming the opposite and justifying Ganondorf's "FFA viability" with the assumption that the balance changes target FFA mode.

 

[FallofBrawl]

"But the development team doesn't care about 1V1, they only care about FFAs"
Ike, lol

 

[TriTails]

I see ROB's N-air as 'get the hell away from CQC' move. It's a great keep away tool to set up for zonings that ROB excels at (GYROOOOOOO). Why anyone would use ROB's N-air as a damage racking or killing tool I have no clue. That's like using Luigi's F-air to kill.

 

[Radical Larry]

R.OB.'s nair can be used pretty safely. I'll find some footage, hold up.

https://youtu.be/PI07ss71yjY?t=1m49s (Trela vs. 8BitMan at STR this year)

I find in general, most R.O.B. players use it as a "stay away from me" move, since it seems to autocancel or have very minimal landing lag, while having a big arcing range.

Earlier in the match, he does land with a nair and gets shield grabbed, but then he gets away with no punish here. Perhaps it can be read and reacted to, but the window seems very small. Regardless, it's a good tool; bit different from Ike's nair, but can be applied similarly. The two characters use it to different ends, of course.

Also wow at those pre-match johns. Very classy.

I see ROB's N-air as 'get the hell away from CQC' move. It's a great keep away tool to set up for zonings that ROB excels at (GYROOOOOOO). Why anyone would use ROB's N-air as a damage racking or killing tool I have no clue. That's like using Luigi's F-air to kill.

Yes, yes, that's what it's meant to be. I know it's not meant to be a rush in move, yet you have to know that I only call it an abysmal move in various categories. Its damage and knockback are abysmal for its poor start-up, obviously, and you'd have to wait until the attack ends for the autocancel to happen.

It's a good get off me move if you're high enough, it's got a good disjoint and it's got some combo capabilities, but that's what I was trying to get at. I know you're not meant to use it in the stance of a kill move, that's what his other aerials are for; now it's a good option for a kill move if you're high enough against the opponent, but why use it over the faster U-Air?

Anyways, I know it can be thrown out, I know it's a decent move in some categories, I was just trying to tell people that it has some abysmal data on it. The practical uses are a whole other story. Maybe I need to make stuff more clear to understand.

 

[Big-Cat]

Pretty much all the fatties rely almost solely on heart (but only DK has, fittingly, muscle to back it up).

Still, for a character who generally gets his best results from reads, Mewtwo sure is good at getting into positions to make them.

I'd say is a mix of brain and heart. He's not particularly technical, but he needs to make his actions deliberate with knowledge in mind.

I think is 40% brain, 55% heart, and 5% body for when he needs to treat his projectiles as stands. Like so:

 

[C0rvus]

Let's also remember that the brains/heart/body rankings were more for players. Of course characters may mesh better with certain scores, but characters are pretty flexible. A high brains Sheik player may have the most simple punishes down, and rely on a hard-walling or keepaway, needles-heavy neutral to win. Meanwhile, the heart Sheik main will mix things up and rely on Sheik's strongest tools to apply pressure, play the player and mess with expectations from such a common character. The body-centric Sheik main can put all the tech in motion, rely on crisp movement and really optimize his punish game to blow stocks away.

All 3 are valid, all 3 have merits and weaknesses, and we are all combinations of the 3. In the video, they rated top SF players on their brains, heart, and body from 1 to 5. I myself am likely a 2 in brains (hate labbing, impatient towards optimization and tech, but read up outside the game), 3 in heart (try my best to pay attention to players' habits, go for mixups, look for reads), and 3 in body (I can perfect pivot with some consistency and can play every character in the game on a basic level or better). This is fun.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So watching Keitaro at Xanadu, I realized I can't remember the last time we talked about Falco in here.

So guys, how is Falco doing these days?

 

[Pazx]

I don't really think that characters themselves lend themselves to this mind/body/heart thing, following on from C0rvus 's thoughts MVD's Diddy would be mostly heart whilst mine would be mostly brain.

The thing about me is, is that I never actually try or give 100%.

Okay this is actually pretty funny. Someone finally accepts your bs challenge and you're already writing up pre-johns? You should probably stop talking about characters you don't understand. I know frame data isn't your strong point (remember when you got banned from the old version of this thread because you didn't understand IASA frames?) so I feel bad for those who are trying to explain how safety on shield works. Good luck with your future shieldgrabbing endeavours. Did you know that if you shield a Sheik fair you get a free grab? Thinkaman I'll take "Antagonising Radical Larry" for 2 infraction points please, Alex.

 

[Mario766]

The thing about me is, is that I never actually try or give 100%. But I'll accept your challenge, as long as you got a stream working sometime. Make sure to PM me when that happens.

But ROB's N-Air is nothing like Ike's. Ike's comes out much faster than ROB's and is much safer on shield due to Ike's size in comparison to ROB's. ROB is a free grab if the opponent shields or power shields, but Ike is different in that he'll be able to retreat better than ROB.

It's 6 frames difference. They are both very close safety on shield because unlike ROB's, Ike has to deal with the 14 frames of landing lag every time he uses it because he literally can't auto cancel it due to the 64 frame auto cancel window. ROB's N-Air auto cancels the frame after the animation ends, giving him the 2 frame landing lag which makes his N-Air a lot better to use. Ike's N-Air is only safer when spaced because it got a much needed +5 shield stun buff on it.


/johns

My play in Brawl was entirely heart. I decided when looking at Ike to ignore labbing and went straight for pattern reading and outplaying my opponent. 'twas my error.

In Smash 4 I'm a mixture of all 3. Without a Wii U I'm a massive theorycrafter and I spend a lot of my time on Smashboards thinking of MU knowledge and proper ways to handle situations, which I'm making a tally of on my person when I get back into tournaments. In tournaments I'm looking at how my opponent plays so I'm a solid Heart, and I work on my execution so I can perfect my options in game.

 

[thehard]

Keitaro was going ham at Xanadu before the internet dropped out, beat Seagull Joe and Mister Eric and while he lost to False's Ryu it was pretty tight if we ignore the SDs. Hope he continues to push the character, commentators be powerin' up.

Thoughts on any of those matchups? I don't know the character well enough. I suppose the obvious is that ROB and Ryu can be comboed for a pretty long time (Falco can pursue in the air easily due to both character's weights and his own long jumps), and Falco can break through FA with his multi-hit aerials, up-tilt, and up-smash. He can also negate gyro and laser spam with his reflector pretty handily, and ROB can't air-stall as effectively due to Falco's threatening long jumps. B-air seems fantastic both on land and in the air due to both characters' heights. F-air, whether crossed up or not, positions Falco pancake-low to the ground and both characters don't seem to have good/reliable options to punish it hard. His boxing game is pretty immaculate in general, not sure why people insist he has a bad neutral.

No idea about Falco/Sonic though

 

[Luco]

Hmmm, in Brawl, PF and Mekos tended towards heavy heart playstyles with Lucas (PF might have done some more labbing that I don't know of, though?) whilst FAE took a very body-based route and mastered Lucas' ATs to the point where it looked like he was playing a totally different character.

Lucas' ability to do body-based stuff was kinda reduced in the way of ATs but buffed in terms of combos. I'm not sure who fulfills these archetypes now. It's true that it's more about players and less about characters but you do have "more technical" or "read-based" characters.

As a player, I have actually done some extensive labbing on a few different occasions - it's surprising how much of a brain player I am with someone like Ness, where most of the Bthrow kill percents for each character on a given stage feel semi-burned into my memory. It's funny how often I say "that will kill" or "that won't kill" when I throw, and I'm rarely wrong. I've also tested other things, in fact I used a Dsmash to kill someone recently that I knew I could get specifically in that position when they were recovering. Perhaps I'm at a 4 on this one.

I think heart is one of the core aspects of gameplay most peeps start out with having experience on. What the other player is doing, adaptability and versatility, reading the opponent. At times I feel totally inside someone else's mindset, but occasionally it totally flips on me in a game. I'd say I'm somewhere around the middle here at a 3.

As for body, I used to be really into ATs, but I've noticed myself dropping combos and missing ATs that I want to be doing occasionally. This might be a 2 but I think my consistently is still high enough to warrant a 3? Perhaps I give myself far too much credit.

 

[Radical Larry]

Pazx I'm not pre-Johning, I just never have cared about actually trying. I've fought people on Smash Ladder and creamed a few different people online from there, and I wasn't even trying, probably giving 20% to 30% of skill is all. You just will never see me try in a game of Smash 4, so that's why I accepted the guy's challenge. I don't care how much someone tries, I won't try and it will be very bluntly obvious when you see it.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Keitaro was going ham at Xanadu before the internet dropped out, beat Seagull Joe and Mister Eric and while he lost to False's Ryu it was pretty tight if we ignore the SDs. Hope he continues to push the character, commentators be powerin' up.

Thoughts on any of those matchups? I don't know the character well enough. I suppose the obvious is that ROB and Ryu can be comboed for a pretty long time (Falco can pursue in the air easily due to both character's weights and his own long jumps), and Falco can break through FA with his multi-hit aerials, up-tilt, and up-smash. He can also negate gyro and laser spam with his reflector pretty handily, and ROB can't air-stall as effectively due to Falco's threatening long jumps. B-air seems fantastic both on land and in the air due to both characters' heights. F-air, whether crossed up or not, positions Falco pancake-low to the ground and both characters don't seem to have good/reliable options to punish it hard. His boxing game is pretty immaculate in general, not sure why people insist he has a bad neutral.

No idea about Falco/Sonic though

I'm a Falco main but I'm not really good at the game nor am I knowledgable when it comes to theorycrafting and stuff like that, but anyways, IMO, what makes Falco's neutral bad is the fact that he really has no attacks to use to space around. Other than a retreating nair or a well-spaced bair, Falco really has no aerial that's safe on shield. Retreating nair also has the downside of giving up stage position and bair has very little shield stun so you have to be very precise with your spacing.

On the ground, Falco only has like 2 attacks that are safe on shield, f-tilt and d-tilt. F-tilt isn't bad as a footsies attack, it's fast and can be angled, however it has pretty has no followups. D-tilt is definitely one of Falco's best moves because it's fast, disjointed, and can kill. It's a good way to poke at shields too like pretty much most d-tilts. I'm not sure if dash attack is safe on shield as well though. Lasers aren't really a zoning tool, so they don't mean much in neutral. Reflector has too much end lag for it to be a consistent option in neutral. Lastly, Falco's grab is pretty bad too in terms of speed and range.

 

[bc1910]

Pazx I'm not pre-Johning, I just never have cared about actually trying. I've fought people on Smash Ladder and creamed a few different people online from there, and I wasn't even trying, probably giving 20% to 30% of skill is all. You just will never see me try in a game of Smash 4, so that's why I accepted the guy's challenge. I don't care how much someone tries, I won't try and it will be very bluntly obvious when you see it.

You are literally admitting that you are going to sandbag. That is one of the biggest pre-johns going. You win, you can say "lol, wasn't even trying". You lose, you can say "lol, wasn't even trying". It's pretty pathetic.

------

OT, let's shake the idea that the Dev team don't care about 1v1s. We have interview proof from Sakurai explaining how they balance the game. He mentions that they monitor Japanese tournaments, online win rates and run several in-house FFA, 2v2 and 1v1 matches to balance the game. They care about all three game modes.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pazx I'm not pre-Johning, I just never have cared about actually trying. I've fought people on Smash Ladder and creamed a few different people online from there, and I wasn't even trying, probably giving 20% to 30% of skill is all. You just will never see me try in a game of Smash 4, so that's why I accepted the guy's challenge. I don't care how much someone tries, I won't try and it will be very bluntly obvious when you see it.

Don't waste people's time with this drivel.

Keitaro was going ham at Xanadu before the internet dropped out, beat Seagull Joe and Mister Eric and while he lost to False's Ryu it was pretty tight if we ignore the SDs. Hope he continues to push the character, commentators be powerin' up.

No idea about Falco/Sonic though

Same. No clue. Need to learn it more.

 

[|RK|]

Be sure to post the video in here. Wanna see what this Larry fellow is about.

 

[Zannabluke]

falco is a good character, he's more reminiscent of his previous incarnation but with the removal of chaingrabbing and auto-cancelling lasers, he lost what made him amazing in brawl
his cqc is still excellent (except maybe for his jab)

 

[Ffamran]

His boxing game is pretty immaculate in general, not sure why people insist he has a bad neutral.

You pretty much answered the question yourself. Falco excels at close-range combat, but does poorly at mid- and sometimes long-range because of not only low overall horizontal mobility, but a lack of something to cover that up safely e.g. good zoning even if strictly stage control tools like Ryu's Hadouken, Greninja's Water Shuriken, Fox's Blaster, safe burst and/or zone-breaking movement options like Wario's Bike, Luigi Cyclone, Quick Draw which at least has a hitbox on front even if it whiffs, Ganondorf's dash attack, or even Wizard's Foot which like Falcon Kick, can get you out of a corner without dealing with the fact someone could move back a couple of steps, not get hit because of a lack of a hitbox, and punish, or, this is a moot point since Falco's not designed around this, a lack of disjoints which despite Roy, Meta Knight, Marth, and Toon Link being the faster swordsmen, the others, the Pits, Shulk, Ike, Link, and maybe Cloud are average-speed or slower, but having disjoints really help.

In a way, Falco is like a video game shotgun - real life shotguns actually have decent range unlike in games which don't for balancing reasons. Close up, Falco does a lot of damage and can cover a lot of options like how a pointblank shotgun blast will kill and the spread can cover a wide area, but further out, a shotgun using buck shot won't really do much damage as the spread literally spreads the damage out. Likewise, the further you move away from him, the less threatening he is. If you can avoid his high recovery Blaster, you can lame Falco out hard. If you can't, you can still tank the hits and even punish him during its recovery. It's dealing with the stun, the stall, that might throw people off. Now, if the Falco player just refuses to use Blaster and even Reflector, then whoopie, you don't really have to do anything, but wait for him to commit and that's when he falls apart.

Falco's neutral is dependent on at what range Falco is at with close being like average, mid-range ends up as poor, and long-range can be anywhere from decent like everyone else - there's a point where projectiles don't really do much at max range - to poor or good - really depends on the MU. Without a decent mid-range option, Falco's neutral nosedives. It'd be similar if Snake's Grenades weren't as potent. Sure, he'd excel at close-range, but how would he get in with his speed and large frame? I fear this question will be asked if Snake returns since they're definitely not going to let him have Grenades as strong as Brawl's.

 

[bc1910]

I don't think Falco's long range is bad and haven't done for a long time. I think your above post is quite level-headed though in the past you've lamented Falco's long range game unnecessarily.

Blaster is still a transcendent projectile with rapid fire capabilities, fast startup and excellent range. The ending lag makes it unsuitable for use at mid range, but at long range it's still a fantastic zoning tool.

Falco's mid range is worse because blaster isn't suitable for use, but reflector is still a very powerful mid range tool that you will usually get away with using.

It's very rare that I see Falco not able to force an approach in a MU, and it makes sense. He has a long range transcendent projectile and one of the best reflectors in the game. I can't think of many MUs, if any, where Falco can't force the opponent at least to mid range.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Guys, let's please not keep fueling a topic that doesn't deserve it by calling out individuals and their yet-to-happen performances.

 

[Nobie]

This is just theorycraft with a bit of stream observation, but Falco vs. Ryu looks...unpleasant. Not that Falco has no chance of winning, but his issue is that his favorite place to be, up and in your face, is exactly where Ryu wants you to be as he delivers the start of some nasty combo. Falco being a fastfaller is further susceptible to this.

 

[outfoxd]

Mostly a heart player, just not a particularly good one. I play a DH, who lives and dies by confusing an opponent and using odd, unique options to fight outside the conventional neutral.

I've never been a great technical player so in any fighting game I've played characters either with high reward with lower technical barriers or gimmicky, unconventional options.

Examples:

Tekken: Dragunov and Jack

MVC3: Ghost Rider, Frank West, Spencer.

Virtua Fighter: El Blaze

Blazblue: Iron Tager

Basically, I'm dumb and lazy and i gravitate toward characters that facilitate that, regardless of tiers. As I'm getting older and have less time im sure this will be exacerbated.

I guess I'm more a proponent of the player driving the character.

 

[Mario766]

I feel like things can change between games. I'm actually a huge fan of technical characters in games

I'm a Vayne main in League, and in MVC3 I main Dante/Vergil who is super technica.

Guess I'm a big fan of a high skill cap, which I guess goes well with Ike. There's a lot of small things that pushes the skill cap of Ike because you have to execute to do well when you get out of the online scene and start playing in tournament scenes, as his weaknesses are more profound.

 

[G. Stache]

I know this isn't exactly the place, but I fell asleep during Xanadu and I have to know: Who won Xanadu? And, more importantly: how did Boss do?

Regarding the heart/brain/muscle characters and players (since I might as well add something to the conversation): I feel as if the Mario Bros. in general allow for a mixture of all three. They're very flexible in that sense and that would explain why they're easier to pick up than most. Player wise, I prefer heart with a little bit of brain. I like to be more of an analyst while battling. Observing what worked and didn't work for me. Observing my opponents patterns and being able to adapt to the situation and (hopefully) punish. That way, I feel that any MU is winnable.

 

[Zannabluke]

1st false with ryu
2nd boss
3rd keitaro with falco
4th mistereric with rob
5th vabengal with zss

 

[DungeonMaster]

Out of all characters, I think is the poster child for the brain category. Her mains are extraordinary dedicated. They take so much time and effort to learn the inside and out of their character to make her function.
Mainly due to her unfortunate design flaws (and series loyalty)

I agree! And when all the meta has been pushed to its limit, our technical understanding will win in the end.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Someone brought up Falco vs Sonic and I can tell you that MU is not fun for Falco cause of his slow self. I need to play this MU more for a long period so i can give a solid what do/ dont do and ratio in the MU.

Falco vs Ryu is also not fun but mostly cause of Ryu light up tilt combos and other conversions into true SRK with Falco being light as well as a fastfaller. Yeah falco has alot of moves to beat FA but falco gets out damage more quickly especially in air to air scenarios where falco wants to nair, fair or bair and Ryu does his bair and Falco gets that giant bonecrushing foot in his beak alot of times in trades. Also edge guarding and landing traps are dirty on both parties but better on ryu's part and true SRK trying to gimp that when he's recovering from below is not fun so falco can try to clip in the with a bair or fall off and rar nair for a stage spike.

 

[Mili]

I used to think that the vs. matchup was heavily in Ryu's favour but I think it's more even than that. I still believe that Ryu has an advantage because Falco gets absolutely savaged by the young elbow and Ryu can keep up with Falco's combo game through heavy damage from most of his aerials (F-Air, B-Air etc.). Furthermore, because of Falco's nature as a fast-faller, Ryu can link a lot of moves (mostly N-Air) to do even more damage.

Now, I didn't watch the stream for Xanadu but it will be interesting for me to see how False approached the matchup, especially when they know each other so well. I think a good example of the vs. matchup are Hooded's sets against LoF_Keitaro.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well all you who care about Mewtwo here is another expert opinion article! Go learn what they think on the character and totally discuss here too.