Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Rikkhan]

Honeslty I think Genesis 3 brackets could have been waaaaay better, I mean wtf 9B and fatality on the same bracket? B47 the Nairo bracket has GIMR, Sky and Player 7(which is like a brazilian Leo), A44, B46 like @SSBU | Jams said also I'll add C45 and D45, in contrast some brackets look really easy.

 

[TurboLink]

It's interesting how Abadango has such a low opinion of Ness.

I can see why he would have a low opinion of Ness.

He has a lot of weaknesses.

Poor range on ground attacks.
Situational projectiles. (Situational specials actually.)
Bad recovery.
Below average dash speed and air speed. (Having bad ground mobility can make getting grabs harder. Especially when playing against someone who plays very carefully.)
Neutral game doesn't seem to be too good. (I've only now just picked up Ness so I could be wrong about this.)

His strengths lie in his aerials and throws. Maybe Abandago thinks that Ness's strengths just aren't enough to compensate for his weaknesses to be higher on the tier list.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Where's Link at? (I can't manage to open up the status)

Link's down in C tier with Ike for some reason, even though in reality Link is quite good and actually probably high-mid. If he gets buffed again you might well be vindicated with him as a high tier.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dunno, I see Cloud as a very likely contender for Top 10 (likely 9th or 10th IMO). I have my reservations. Yes the character has weaknesses but his strengths are very incredible. I don't view him as high as Abadango does but look at his results in Japan. He's done a LOT there already and it's pretty easy to see why. I don't know why we're in this habit of calling it "stupid" or "laughable". It's just an opinion. I was guilty of this too (sometimes I still am, but I'd like to think I'm working on it) but like, diverting thought processes on characters should be viewed as conventional challenges to traditional or moderate thinknig, not an excuse to post "HA THAT'S STUPID." SMH. But I do firmly believe Cloud is Top 10. I have trouble listing matchups that I think he especially struggles with (I can't think of any terrible top matchups either, worst is probably 6:4 in my mind), and it becomes especially hard to say he loses in any significant quantity to other characters commonly ranked below him. I don't see a parallel with Cloud and Ness at all outside of "they have weaknesses", but I think Ness's weaknesses are much more of a detriment to him than Cloud's are (at this point in time.)

On the topic of deadzones and Cloud, the only one I can think of is Fair. Nair's VERY VERY tip doesn't hit which isn't really a problem considering the rest of it does, and he doesn't throw out any hurtboxes outside of his body during this move, he's very tucked in (THIS right here is why Nair is ridiculous. Not the range or autocancel exclusively.) His only notable deadzone that really doesn't match up with trails is his Fair which does not hit above him. There is a very good reason for this.

As far as DLC goes I believe Ryu is better than Cloud but that's it (so far). Lucas and Mewtwo are definitely actual contenders now IMO (moreso Mewtwo especially, woohoo!) and Roy is kind of weird and underdeveloped (consensus is bad, so far. I'm reserving my opinion on him, I might lab stuff out with him again mayhap.)

Also note of the day, if you want to have a lot of real fun with Cloud's Nair, set C-Stick to Attack and start doing retreating Nairs. You're welcome, you will never be punished 80% of the time (the 20% exists though, be aware!)

 

[Z1GMA]

I've tried doing something like this using size and weight as factors but I was never happy with it for one reason or another. Charizard, Wario, Villager, Mega Man and Pikachu had very favorable values, Mewtwo, Rosalina, ZSS, Marcina and a few others had pretty bad ones.

I feel Bowser Jr might have the highest BMI.
WHat method did u use?
Feel free to share that list, also

 

[Yikarur]

I'd say Sword-Mario isn't higher than Top15. Top15 is perfectly fine. There are super large contenders for that spot and you always see that Sword-Mario is getting pretty good results because their opponents are messing up at the crucial moments. (see Kagemushi vs. Rain..)
The characters weaknesses are not well exploited yet.

 

[Zelder]

Gonna take your advice, and add some content: Putting Cloud, a character who has been out for about a month at this point, on the same level as confirmed killers like Meta Knight, Sonic, and Rosa, is silly. It's too early to say that this character, who has not seen any real counterplay developed against him, is top tier. It seems short sighted. In addition, I question the validity of putting Sheik and ZSS, who I consider to be just a cut above the rest in his top tier, in the same tier as the others, and I really question the logic of saying Cloud is as good as Sheik and ZSS.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I wasn't saying the idea of Cloud being top 10 is stupid, I'm saying the idea of Cloud being on the same level as Sheik and ZSS, the two best characters in the game, is laughable. He's been out for a month. Also, you have seriously gotta' chill out on Cloud dude. I feel like you take attacks on Cloud (or calls to nerf him, or what have you) as personal attacks because he's your main. I understand the impulse, but it doesn't really benefit the thread when people get too wrapped up in their main.

EDIT: I'm just gonna tl;dr it.

You missed the point of my post entirely and I encourage you to read it again thoroughly.

 

[Ffamran]

I think the one thing that confuses me and many other Yoshi players to this day is why people say Sky is the best Yoshi player in the world still.
He went to apex and that's it, yet he's praised. Is it cause he's Sky? There's now legitimate Yoshi players to point at and say they might be the best after a year into the game, c'mon... and I don't mean just 2 or 3 I'm talking 6 or so too.


I'm not talking about solely this post in particular though before I get ravaged by the mad dogs, just mean everybody in general. (most recent example, Nairo's tweet apparently from what somebody linked last night)

It's tossed around so much I almost feel like it's a meme that a lot of people have just latched onto similar to better nerf greninja. Just the easiest thing to say instead of having to do any research on anyone, the default basically.
"He plays Zero a lot so he must be good, he uploaded a friendly he beat him in!" Just like the meme that Dunkey is better than Sky after uploadin' matches only the donkster won.
Or similar to Shulk commentators, THE WIND MONADO.

Misinformation.

Who are the Yoshi players we should be looking out for? Asking because if we keep stomping their names into everyone's brains, maybe people would finally get those Yoshi players are ones to watch along with Sky, because, Sky.

It's interesting how Abadango has such a low opinion of Ness.

Doesn't Abadango also play Rosalina? Yeah, probably why. He's probably feeling Ness is nothing to him and maybe gatekept by Rosalina. Question: is Ness really gatekept by her?

Also, Roy's pathetically low placing is kind of funny. I feel like he and Marth should be up a tier.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Gonna take your advice, and add some content: Putting Cloud, a character who has been out for about a month at this point, on the same level as confirmed killers like Meta Knight, Sonic, and Rosa, is silly. It's too early to say that this character, who has not seen any real counterplay developed against him, is top tier, seems short sighted. In addition, I question the validity of putting Sheik and ZSS, who I consider to be just a cut above the rest in his top tier, in the same tier as the others, and I really question the logic of saying Cloud is as good as Sheik and ZSS.

I think we're off on a much better page here, haha. I agree with this. I don't think he's nearly as good as Sheik or ZSS in that regard. I'm definitely curious as to why Abadango thinks this way, although a part of me believes that it might be because we have Cloud beating a lot of really good Sheiks in Japan out of nowhere. Japan seems to have optimized the character a good deal but I think this list definitely screams "based on recent results" more than anything. Yeah, we also haven't seen super solid counterplay (which I'm interested in seeing as Cloud's dominant presence is really in Japan). I can give a little advice on the end of Sheik though. Crouching in the neutral will be very helpful against Cloud.

However the Doc placement is really peculiar. I want to know why he thinks that highly of him. I think their legal stagelist is different, maybe that's a contributor for it?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Who are the Yoshi players we should be looking out for? Asking because if we keep stomping their names into everyone's brains, maybe people would finally get those Yoshi players are ones to watch along with Sky, because, Sky.


Doesn't Abadango also play Rosalina? Yeah, probably why. He's probably feeling Ness is nothing to him and maybe gatekept by Rosalina. Question: is Ness really gatekept by her?

Also, Roy's pathetically low placing is kind of funny. I feel like he and Marth should be up a tier.

Well, Dabuz seems to destroy every Ness he encounters. Not sure about other Rosalina players.

I'll reiterate my usual stance that while it's true Rosalina can gimp PK Thunder with minimal effort, the onstage matchup is much more interesting and not automatically in her favor. They can both make each other's life quite annoying. And gimping PK Thunder by itself isn't really news, it's just part of the Ness package at this point. Rosalina's only notable for how easily she can do it. (Villager is in this camp too.)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Who are the Yoshi players we should be looking out for? Asking because if we keep stomping their names into everyone's brains, maybe people would finally get those Yoshi players are ones to watch along with Sky, because, Sky.

Of the ones in there, raptor wall firefly iRJi.
I'd say Mr.Doom but I only remember somebody posting like 4 or so months ago in Shaya's notable players thread that he beat one or two good people in his scene then I never heard anything from him again so dunno.

The others I'm not aware of, I thought Dr.Wa was Dr. Robotnik a Washington Yoshi I believe but I got the names mixed up. It's a shame DIO didn't go but apparently he's been inactive lately so no japan Yoshi rep, along with another one Aiba being married so doubt him and his wife nino will ever travel out of japan.

 

[Yikarur]

Well, Dabuz seems to destroy every non-top player he encounters.
/QUOTE]

fix'd.

Dabuz is Rosalina is a monster, I don't think you can make Match-up conclusions by rating his games :/

 

[Locke 06]

Of the ones in there, raptor wall firefly iRJi.
I'd say Mr.Doom but I only remember somebody posting like 4 or so months ago in Shaya's notable players thread that he beat one or two good people in his scene then I never heard anything from him again so dunno.

The others I'm not aware of, I thought Dr.Wa was Dr. Robotnik a Washington Yoshi I believe but I got the names mixed up. It's a shame DIO didn't go but apparently he's been inactive lately so no japan Yoshi rep, along with another one Aiba being married so doubt him and his wife nino will ever travel out of japan.

Dr. Wa is the Yoshi formerly known as Robotnik. Has been going through some health/personal issues and hasn't been able to travel nearly as much as he has wanted to.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dr. Wa is the Yoshi formerly known as Robotnik.

Cash money, I was right lol
Sucks about the health issues though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Abadango thinks Cloud is on the same level as Sheik and ZSS.

No.

He MIGHT be top tier. But equal to the queens?

No.

 

[Pazzo.]

I hear a lot about Cloud's weaknesses... but for the sake of educating a competitive abecedarian, what are they and why do they matter?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

On the other hand, his weaknesses are still obvious.

Even though they got rid of his killing problem prett much, something like his severe lack of approach I don't think should be fixed,
They should only slightly improve his neutral so people can't throw out safe attacks in his face ya know?
That's where Final Cutter needs to get slightly less startup and/or endlag, I know the move could be useful if it had that small adjustment, and to compensate for that, they could significantly reduce the, sadly, near useless meteor smash it has(despite its immense base knock back)
I think that's the most plausible thing that could happen(or a tiny air speed buff)

But yea they shouldn't try to remove his weaknesses, but I think they could make them slightly less.....abusable? I guess

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd say Sword-Mario isn't higher than Top15. Top15 is perfectly fine. There are super large contenders for that spot and you always see that Sword-Mario is getting pretty good results because their opponents are messing up at the crucial moments. (see Kagemushi vs. Rain..)
The characters weaknesses are not well exploited yet.

...You talking about Cloud or Pit? I'm assuming Cloud, but being sword Mario is more Pit's thing.

 

[Radical Larry]

I hear a lot about Cloud's weaknesses... but for the sake of educating a competitive abecedarian, what are they and why do they matter?

Recovery is his biggest weakness by far, and his second biggest is his bad throw combo game. Those are pretty much givens.

Link's down in C tier with Ike for some reason, even though in reality Link is quite good and actually probably high-mid. If he gets buffed again you might well be vindicated with him as a high tier.

If Link gets another buff, it'd most likely be a damage or throw buff, maybe even a faster projectile or his Brawl F-Smash?
Those are the only ones I can think of for him.

 

[Y2Kay]

Now in regards to posts with how do I say it........"unpopular opinions"

Someone may post something you think is stupid/wrong, but do we always have to respond by flaming with no mercy? I mean criticism is right, but you need to give the horse the carrot and the stick. You guys need to follow up with something at least constructive, but if all it is is an insult, then are we really doing anything to help the situation?

For example, if Larry posts something controversial of some sorts, and your response is pretty much: "LOL Larry your opinion is stupid, please git gud at smash" what have you contributed? What have you accomplished? Nothing but probably make Larry upset or definitively make the mood of the thread more hostile. A response along the lines of "I understand what you're trying to say, but I disagree because blah blah blah" is actually useful and cohesive to this continuous discussion we're having.

I'm not saying you can't criticize or people for an incorrect assumption or idea, but you guys need to be a little more mindful of how you do it. Some of these responses to Larry really aren't better than the posts you criticize him of.

The carrot and the stick is a really basic concept of diplomacy you should know for an argument. It's so easy to do guys, so just......do it ok? Everything I've put in this post should be common sense, but common sense ain't that common.

Something I've wanted to say for a while, so go on with conversation and stuff.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Or put silly people on ignore.

Ignore button been making the world a better place longer then mankind remembers.

 

[Y2Kay]

Or put silly people on ignore.

Ignore button been making the world a better place longer then mankind remembers.

Ignoring them is definitely the next best option, but what's the fun in that?

A trashy, insulting response that does nothing to actually say what the problem with post is in the first place is the worst option of all.

 

[Yikarur]

How is being Sword Mario a Pit thing? Pit isn't a pick and perform amazing type of character and that is what I'm refering to.
And the Mario award clearly goes to Cloud.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I feel Bowser Jr might have the highest BMI.
WHat method did u use?
Feel free to share that list, also

I don't have any list to share. All I did was taking a character's height and divide it by his weight and use that value as BMI. But it's really not a good method tbh. Bowser Jr doesn't have a particularly high value because he's a quite tall character.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I don't have any list to share. All I did was taking a character's height and divide it by his weight and use that value as BMI. But it's really not a good method tbh. Bowser Jr doesn't have a particularly high value because he's a quite tall character.

Mewtwo's the highest then

 

[Y2Kay]

How is being Sword Mario a Pit thing? Pit isn't a pick and perform amazing type of character and that is what I'm refering to.
And the Mario award clearly goes to Cloud.

You gotta understand tho pit being "Mario but worse" is an old nickname of his.

It's no true but still......

 

[ARGHETH]

How is being Sword Mario a Pit thing? Pit isn't a pick and perform amazing type of character and that is what I'm refering to.
And the Mario award clearly goes to Cloud.

I think it's because Mario has traditionally been the "balanced" character, but in this game that's Pit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mewtwo's the highest then

How did you figure that out so fast?!?

 

[LancerStaff]

How is being Sword Mario a Pit thing? Pit isn't a pick and perform amazing type of character and that is what I'm refering to.
And the Mario award clearly goes to Cloud.

I struggle to call Cloud an all-arounder, and Pit doesn't have any really exploitable weaknesses like Mario. If your opponent knows the Cloud matchup better then you know your opponent's, things aren't looking good for you. Meanwhile Pit and Mario are more fundamentals characters and can survive off of that instead or raw matchup experience.

Cloud's generally easier to use then Pit, but that's about it. It's kind of a confusing thing to say because Pit's been compared to Mario for much longer.

Whelp, 'd.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I struggle to call Cloud an all-arounder, and Pit doesn't have any really exploitable weaknesses like Mario. If your opponent knows the Cloud matchup better then you know your opponent's, things aren't looking good for you. Meanwhile Pit and Mario are more fundamentals characters and can survive off of that instead or raw matchup experience.

Cloud's generally easier to use then Pit, but that's about it. It's kind of a confusing thing to say because Pit's been compared to Mario for much longer.

Cloud is called Sword Mario because like Mario he's easy to pick up and play for a Sword character (like how Mario is easy to pick up and play as a...well, up-close combo character/mobile character), and also very easily viable (kinda like how Mario is). At least, that's the comparison.

But yeah Cloud is called Sword Mario because he's not difficult and he's also incredibly effective and a good character, basically. Pit is his own thing in this game, I don't consider Mario an all-around character either, but Mario IS easy to play.

 

[L9999]

Doesn't Abadango also play Rosalina? Yeah, probably why. He's probably feeling Ness is nothing to him and maybe gatekept by Rosalina. Question: is Ness really gatekept by her?

Also, Roy's pathetically low placing is kind of funny. I feel like he and Marth should be up a tier.

As far as I know, he picked up Rosalina to defeat Ness players easily when he played Pacman.

Well, Dabuz seems to destroy every Ness he encounters. Not sure about other Rosalina players.

I'll reiterate my usual stance that while it's true Rosalina can gimp PK Thunder with minimal effort, the onstage matchup is much more interesting and not automatically in her favor. They can both make each other's life quite annoying. And gimping PK Thunder by itself isn't really news, it's just part of the Ness package at this point. Rosalina's only notable for how easily she can do it. (Villager is in this camp too.)

I have seen Shaky and Taranito beat some Rosalinas, but they weren't major ones and the matchup still looked as bad as any match with Dabuz in it. The bolded part:

How to gimp Ness 101:
Gravitational Gimp (a 1 button press that absorbs PKT then Ness dies): (custom)
Reflected/Windboxed (can go out, use a reflector/windbox, Ness dies): (I think, so far nobody has gimped me like this) (Gale Boomerang shenanigans) Every custom move in existence, they are to many to mention.

Countered (explains itself): (I think)

Item/Projectile ( they throw things offstage until he dies): (I think) (Star Bits snipe bad jumps) (tight but it can work) .

Raw (They go out, throw out aerials, he dies): (Doesn't need GP, just Dair) (Just like she does to everyone else) .

 

[LancerStaff]

Cloud is called Sword Mario because like Mario he's easy to pick up and play for a Sword character (like how Mario is easy to pick up and play as a...well, up-close combo character/mobile character), and also very easily viable (kinda like how Mario is). At least, that's the comparison.

But yeah Cloud is called Sword Mario because he's not difficult and he's also incredibly effective and a good character, basically. Pit is his own thing in this game, I don't consider Mario an all-around character either, but Mario IS easy to play.

Cloud I'd say is easier to play then Mario... Pit I don't think is that hard to play, but you need to come in with some knowledge to really function. You're probably good to go if you've been listening to even half of what I've been saying, heh.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How did you figure that out so fast?!?

Tall as crap and light as jigglypuff. Height divided by weight.

 

[Y2Kay]

As far as I know, he picked up Rosalina to defeat Ness players easily when he played Pacman.


I have seen Shaky and Taranito beat some Rosalinas, but they weren't major ones and the matchup still looked as bad as any match with Dabuz in it. The bolded part:

How to gimp Ness 101:
Gravitational Gimp (a 1 button press that absorbs PKT then Ness dies): (custom)
Reflected/Windboxed (can go out, use a reflector/windbox, Ness dies): (I think, so far nobody has gimped me like this) (Gale Boomerang shenanigans) Every custom move in existence, they are to many to mention.

Countered (explains itself): (I think)

Item/Projectile ( they throw things offstage until he dies): (I think) (Star Bits snipe bad jumps) (tight but it can work) .

Raw (They go out, throw out aerials, he dies): (Doesn't need GP, just Dair) (Just like she does to everyone else) .

I can confirm that counter with greninja does NOT work whatsoever

 

[meleebrawler]

I can confirm that counter with greninja does NOT work whatsoever

Not to mention that Corrin's has vertical knockback which would actually help recoveries...

 

[L9999]

Not to mention that Corrin's has vertical knockback which would actually help recoveries...

It won't matter if it is at high percents. And he might as well throw out an aerial or snipe him with Side Smash. Only time will tell.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Me:Cloud is probably going to be high tier

Everyone Else:lol no cloud is meh he's gonna be low tier.

I LOL when people say Cloud needs nerfs.

 

[Nu~]

...where are these select few that say cloud is a low tier character?

 

[Wintermelon43]

...where are these select few that say cloud is a low tier character?

This was before he was released