Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Luigi player]

While talking about Luigi not being top 15, I just won one of the biggest smash4 tourneys in germany (which is considered the strongest region of europe by quite a few) with basically solo Luigi (used Diddy one match early bracket cuz I felt like it would be easier, only lost 1 match total the whole tourney, against cyves Sheik).

Spoiler: Top 8

1. Luigi player
2. cyve
3. Sodrek
4. Eddy
5. vyQ
5. LoNg0uw
7. Cyfersquad
7. Light

Not really sure what to think of Luigi myself right now, but it seems like it's definitely possible for him to still do really well. Mr. Concon also beat K9 again yesterday so Sheik doesn't seem like such a terrible MU after all, as long as you can mash for his jumpless cyclone of course, and know the MU well enough.

His supposedly bad MUs also don't seem that bad to me. I had more trouble with Diddy Kong against a Megaman than with Luigi, although those matches were 'just' friendlies, but still. I also don't feel like Samus beats Luigi, but I'm not sure if the Samuses I played are at a high enough level. At least one definitely knows what he's doing, though (KayJay living in the same city as me). It's an annoying MU for Luigi for sure (just like many others..), but I'd actually call it +1 or even. Who knows, though. It hasn't really happened enough, imo, and I'd guess the MU isn't really known by the players too well, Samus is pretty rare, and Luigi now as well after the nerfs.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Spoiler: Genesis 3 Pools Notable Players

Bold = projected to advance in winners
Italics = projected to advance in losers

Spoiler: Wave A

A41: Umeki (Umebura rank 18), Dan (Chicago rank 6), kwan (CA), Kinda (Central California rank 10), Kirinblaze (Tristate), Kuraudo (Alberta rank 4)
A42: Trevonte (Norcal rank 1), Gloomy (NV), Keitaro (NJ rank 6), DjRelly (NorCal rank 19)
A43: SS (AZ rank 0), Kingkool (CA), Fliphop (TX), Hitaku (NorCal rank 15)
A44: Dabuz (NY rank 1), AceStarThe3rd (KY), SM (SoCal rank 18), Azen Zagenite (Melee player), Platypus (Austin, TC rank 3), Rom (Japan), S@nt (Puerto Rico rank 2), Sean (NorCal rank 9)
A45: Zinoto (MI rank 1), Remzi (MDVA rank 6), Laudandus (Melee player), Kei (Japan), Max Ketchum (NJ)
A46: VoiD (SoCal rank 2), Top Ramen (CA), Ryuji (Japan hidden boss), Manzano (On Mexico crew)
A47: Hyuga (Mexico rank 2), Bladewise (WA rank 7, Melee player), Shimitake (Japan), Not Last (I think this is Parasite, NorCal rank 13)
A48: FOW (NV rank 1), Angbad (SoCal rank 13), Zedy (Sweden), Espy (TX), t0mMii (OR rank 6)
A49: Denti (DFW TX rank 2), Mister Eric (MDVA rank 4), Hungrybox (Melee player), Jamnt0ast (WA rank 4), NCJacobT (SoCal)
A50: Vinnie (NY rank 2), Triple R (MN rank 2), Legit (NorCal rank 10), KentoBento (Japan)

Spoiler: Wave B

B41: ZeRo (SoCal rank 0), SK92 (NV rank 5), The Moon (Melee player), Arikie (NorCal rank 11), TSS (AZ rank 8)
B42: Mr. R (Netherlands rank 1), Stark (NorCal rank 17), Acid (DE rank 1)
B43: Tweek (NJ rank 3), CUDR (CA), DSS (NorCal rank 6)
B44: Zex (NorCal rank 3), jEDi (CA), Z (NV rank 3)
B45: Abadango (Umebura rank 6), Hino (NV rank 4), Probeans (NorCal rank 8)
B46: K9 (SoCal rank 5), Wizzrobe (Melee player, but good at Smash 4), BatShark (NorCal rank 14), C.R.Z (UK rank 4), Choknater (CA Central Valley 209 rank 1), Jaaahsh (MN rank 9), Mocha (Former NorCal PR), VeXx (Venezuela)
B47: Nairo (NJ rank 1), GimR (You know), Sky Williams (You know), DGL (ID rank 9), Player 7 (Brazil rank 1)
B48: Seagull Joe (MDVA rank 2), Hashbrown (CA), Firefly (BC, Canada rank 5), Braixen (OR rank 4), Dank (ID rank 6)
B49: Mr. ConCon (SoCal rank 8), Ribs (NY rank 4), Akito555 (CA), Marathon (ID rank 5), SkaterJayy (IN rank 6), Weegee (Houston TX, rank 8)
B50: Salena (Japan), Logic (MDVA rank 9), brokr (CT), The_SuperiorTaste (OR rank 8)
B51: Karna (DFW, TX rank 1), Aggronize (CA), Haruki (Japan, former Austin TX PR), 15(ichigo) (IA rank 7), Wii Twerk Trainer (CA)

Spoiler: Wave C

C41: Earth (Umebura rank 9), IC (Mexico), Clario (NV rank 8)
C42: Tyrant (SoCal rank 4), Captain L (BC rank 2), PewPewU (Melee Player), Mav (PA rank 1), Monster_ (ID rank 3)
C43: Nietono (Umebura rank 14), Big D (BC rank 1), FMAX (OR), spiNR (MN rank 5), Virus (Former NorCal PR)
C44: 9B (Umebura rank 8), Kdash (CA), Fatality (GE rank 3), Pugwest (New England rank 4)
C45: MJG (Lives in Kansas but somehow unranked), Shiny (WA rank 5), DJ Jack (SFL rank 6), EKING (Puerto Rico rank 5), Savage (Austin, TX rank 5)
C46: Rain (Umebura rank 10), ven (NV rank 7), TheLlamaGod (CA), Player-1 (GE)
C47: ESAM (SFL rank 0), Chibo (NJ), Rice (NorCal rank 18), Joaco (Argentina rank 3)
C48: Ryuga (Former MI PR), SFAT (Melee player), Sol (FL), Biddy (Tristate), Calculus (UT rank 3)
C49: MVD (SFL rank 1), Scourge (CA), K0rean (HI rank 1), Brobear (OR rank 7)
C50: Ally (Montreal rank 0), Mr. Doom (Kansas rank 1), KOSSismoss (NorCal rank 5), C4 (NorCal rank 12)
C51: Tearbear (SoCal rank 7), slash (CA), ZOMBE (Reno NV rank 1), Ikez (CenCal rank 5), iRJi (Tristate), WiiGi (CA)

Spoiler: Wave D

D41: Ryo (NFL rank 1), ImHip (SoCal rank 16), 5000candlesinthewind (CA), Atomsk (NJ rank 7), IxisNaugus (UK rank 1), Staz (UT rank 5)
D42: Nickriddle (SFL rank 2), StylesX2 (ON, Canada), Charliedaking (SoCal rank 20), Nitro (On NorCal crew), Goomba (DE rank 7)
D43: komorikiri (Umebura rank 3), GDX (CFL rank 5), Scarizard (Riot pls, why?), Demna (Kuwait), Lada (UT rank 2)
D44: Seibrik (SFL rank 4), Ryuk (Mexico rank 5), TC (MD), SSGuy (DFW TX rank 10)
D45: Ito (SoCal rank 3), Waymas (Merxico rank 4), panhandlerspudd (CA), Jonny Westside (Former SoCal PR)
D46: Jtails (NY rank 6), StarWarriorChris (CA), Lycan (NV rank 2), Nalga (On Mexico crew), Phenom (TX), shofu (DE rank 2)
D47: 8bitman (SFL rank 3), nitromannitol (CA), Crow (CenCal rank 2)
D48: J! (Umebura rank 27), Avalon (NJ rank 9), Aperture (NY)
D49: Ranai (Umebura rank 1), 3xA (NorCal rank 7), Day (OH), DJaraxxus (CA)
D50: Rich Brown (Former SoCal PR), Xiivi (IN rank 12), Villain (On Southwest crew), Alphicans (AB, Canada rank 1)
D51: Shaky (NorCal rank 2), Kelso (CA), TLTC (Former SoCal PR), Horse (AZ rank 9), Jodi Bleek (Former NorCal PR)

Spoiler: Wave E

E41: Raptor (NY rank 7), Akiro (IL rank 1), Valkore (CA), Kantrip (BC, Canada rank 9)
E42: Day (FL, but somehow not ranked), FILIP (Umebura rank 25), R.O.M. (CA)

E43: falln (SoCal rank 6), Phoenixzero (CA), Dath (SFL rank 8), Focus (BC rank 3), Gamegenie222 (NE rank 3), Exo (Former NV PR)
E44: Heero (SWFL rank 1), DannyDanko (CA), Pink Fresh (MDVA rank 7), Izaw (Austria)
E45: Mew2King (FL, but somehow not ranked), Zan (SoCal rank 17), Bun (CA), Ghost (South Australia rank 1)
E46: 6WX (PA, but somehow not ranked), Toronto Joe (ON, Canada), Hakai (FL), Churro (OR rank 10), Dainosuke (Japan), iiGGY (TX)
E47: The Wall (Houston TX rank 2), Pheno (CA), Aphro (SoCal rank 11), Ayuha (Japan)
E48: False (NJ rank 2), Steven (CA), RIN (Japan), MrRyanNess (ME rank 4)
E49: Marss (New England rank 1), True Blue (SFL rank 10), Eval (Puerto Rico)
E50: SlayerZ (Former SoCal PR), Regi Shikimi (Mexico rank 13), ApologyMan (FGC Player), Asa (Houston, TX HM), BestNess (UT rank 1)
E51: NAKAT (NJ, but somehow not ranked), Aguro (CA), Chrim Foish (ON, Canada rank 5)

Spoiler: Wave F

F41: Cacogen (WA rank 1), Marvel (CA), Slither2Hunter (SoCal rank 14), Jezmo (Queensland Australia rank 1)
F42: DKWill (NY rank 3), Nasubi (Japan), Primeus (CA), Shamsy (UT rank 4), Soulimar (NorCal rank 16), T1mmy (OR rank 9), ThatOneOtherDude (CenCal rank 1)
F43: Zenyou (SoCal rank 9), SaSSy (Austin TX, rank 1), DEP (CA), Exodia (AB, Canada rank 3), YoshiBro1 (IN rank 4)
F44: Angel Cortes (NJ rank 5), Kevster (WA), Greenbeast (IL rank 3), dolson (Japan)
F45: Trela (Houston, TX rank 1), Xhyrri (CA), el (Japan), FroZn (UT rank 7), NitN (NorCal rank 20), Saiki (AZ rank 10)
F46: JJROCKETS (IL rank 2), Jeepy Sol (Former NorCal PR), thehomie (This player doesn't exist in this pool. Genesis pls), Justice (OR rank 2)
F47: Kamicario (Former OK hidden boss), Teb (NorCal rank 4), Saladin (CA), Neki (AB, Canada rank 7), Techei (MDVA)
F48: Larry Lurr (SoCal rank 1), AHHHHHHh (CA), Erow (Reno NV rank 3), 2ManyCooks (AB, Canada rank 2), Dr. Wa (WA rank 9)
F49: Xzax (SoCal rank 10), Fire (NY), Lucia (Japan), Glitch (ID rank 2), Jaice (Queensland Australia rank 2)
F50: Xaltis (SFL rank 5), BoScotty (IL rank 9), Lynx (CA), Defiant (ID rank 8), Raziek (NS, Canada rank 1), SolidMid (AZ rank 3)

I think the one thing that confuses me and many other Yoshi players to this day is why people say Sky is the best Yoshi player in the world still.
He went to apex and that's it, yet he's praised. Is it cause he's Sky? There's now legitimate Yoshi players to point at and say they might be the best after a year into the game, c'mon... and I don't mean just 2 or 3 I'm talking 6 or so too.


I'm not talking about solely this post in particular though before I get ravaged by the mad dogs, just mean everybody in general. (most recent example, Nairo's tweet apparently from what somebody linked last night)

It's tossed around so much I almost feel like it's a meme that a lot of people have just latched onto similar to better nerf greninja. Just the easiest thing to say instead of having to do any research on anyone, the default basically.
"He plays Zero a lot so he must be good, he uploaded a friendly he beat him in!" Just like the meme that Dunkey is better than Sky after uploadin' matches only the donkster won.
Or similar to Shulk commentators, THE WIND MONADO.

Misinformation.

 

[LightLV]

Yes I'm jealous of them. After all, I just try and try with my characters and end up nowhere, while they get to have all of the tournaments to their discretion. Do you think I like being stuck in some deadbeat state that has so little representatives, that I try at least making a name for myself by trying to play a character like Link? Do you think I like staying at home watching tournaments instead of participating in them? Or that I like playing online mode, very little amounts of others and have laggy Anther matches?

Well I don't, okay? Do you know why day after day I attempt to try giving out arguments that I want to make valid, but always fall short? It's because I can't find ways to actually express them into a legitimate argument, I always fall short. I have trouble in everything in Smash, then when it comes to when I finally find something interesting that could make a character better, I always manage to screw THAT up! ZeRo makes it seem so easy to play this game, so easy to make arguments, well look at me, I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum here. Even if I've had over a year's experience in this game, I just can't get better with Anthers. I want to go to tournaments with people, actual ones, but I never have the funding nor the transportation needed.

I'm jealous that they can manage to do that, I'm jealous they can make arguments and gameplay seem valid and easy, but look where I'm at, I can't make anything happen.

And even when I try fixing the mistakes, they already happened.

This seems like a very angsty post. Unfortunately everyone can't travel to tournaments all the time, without a job, money and transportation. Some people have all of those things and still cant waste time going to tournaments, since you still need to practice beforehand, and things like having a job, significant other, children, ect ect make it much harder as you get older. But there ARE people who consistently go despite all this, because they are determined enough to make the effort. Find friends who are willing to go and participate, and possibly even pool money together to get everyone into the brackets.

As for ZeRo...people really need to understand. He is a player. He will never have to make his character good, because she's already the best in the game. By playing a character with such powerful tools, it's very easy to look at these others on the roster and make observations. As for my bad advice...If you're already having trouble getting to tournaments? You might as well switch to a character you don't have to "make better". If you are jealous of players like ZeRo, then with that mentality you will never get anywhere close to their level of success.

While talking about Luigi not being top 15, I just won one of the biggest smash4 tourneys in germany (which is considered the strongest region of europe by quite a few) with basically solo Luigi (used Diddy one match early bracket cuz I felt like it would be easier, only lost 1 match total the whole tourney, against cyves Sheik).

Spoiler: Top 8

1. Luigi player
2. cyve
3. Sodrek
4. Eddy
5. vyQ
5. LoNg0uw
7. Cyfersquad
7. Light

Not really sure what to think of Luigi myself right now, but it seems like it's definitely possible for him to still do really well. Mr. Concon also beat K9 again yesterday so Sheik doesn't seem like such a terrible MU after all, as long as you can mash for his jumpless cyclone of course, and know the MU well enough.

His supposedly bad MUs also don't seem that bad to me. I had more trouble with Diddy Kong against a Megaman than with Luigi, although those matches were 'just' friendlies, but still. I also don't feel like Samus beats Luigi, but I'm not sure if the Samuses I played are at a high enough level. At least one definitely knows what he's doing, though (KayJay living in the same city as me). It's an annoying MU for Luigi for sure (just like many others..), but I'd actually call it +1 or even. Who knows, though. It hasn't really happened enough, imo, and I'd guess the MU isn't really known by the players too well, Samus is pretty rare, and Luigi now as well after the nerfs.

Luigi is still a great character, he just lost his highly abusable kill options. I think he's still better than majority of the cast, but he's fallen from that tier of characters who can murder you off an honest mistake.



As for , hes pretty great. His aerials and frame data are superb, when used correctly he has practically no lag on his aerials, but I think the thing he really has going for him is his insane mobility, especially with his aura active. Dtilt also adds to make for a great spacing tool. Nair shuts down allooooott of attacks. Uair is godlike, Bair also pretty godlike. Limit Charge is an amazing stall deterrent, since nobody ever wants him to have it active.

Unfortunately his grab game is whack, there's nothing much to fear from him grabbing you even at VERY high %s, at least not compared to any of his other attacks...and that's a trait that usually leads to a character struggling when trying to kill you. Without landing one of his limits, Cloud usually has to rely on pretty unsafe moves to kill. I think that alone stops him from being top 5, but i'd easily stick him in top 8 at least ATM.

His recovery is also highly abusable without LB. Some characters can littlemac him pretty easily, even though like Little Mac, he tends to feel very in control while on the stage.

I feel like if cloud had throws that went into kill setups (or that could actually kill before 190%) then he'd be extremely dangerous, especially with his cross slash gimmicks and mobility.

 

[Luigi player]

Luigi is still a great character, he just lost his highly abusable kill options. I think he's still better than majority of the cast, but he's fallen from that tier of characters who can murder you off an honest mistake.

I've seen him as ~13th after the nerfs (now not really sure anymore like I said, but probably still something like that), and ~8th before the patch. He still racks up % super fast from mistakes and still has great combos, he just doesn't get free kills anymore from grabs, which is probably what you're referring to. He still gets super early KOs from mistakes / reads with his buffed (range + power) upB, though, and of course cyclone gimps.

His free kills from the grab also weren't really true on some characters (or at a really tight % window and you'd have to fulljump rising cyclone really early or something), like Sheik for example (that's one of the reasons why I thought the Sheik MU didn't really get worse at first). Some others were pretty free, though.

 

[C0rvus]

One thing that helps Cloud's disadvantaged state is his ability to stall with Cross Slash and Blade Beam. His disadvantaged state seems to be one of his bigger weaknesses, but he isn't DK or anything.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'm bored so have some character counts from Jams. list.

Spoiler: Long List

x27
x20
x11
x10
x10
x10
x9
x9
x9
x8
x7
x7
x7
x7
x6
x5
x5
x5
x5
x4
x4
x4
x3
x3
x3
x3
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1
x1

x0

Interesting observations:
230 total.
The top 9 represented characters combined () represent exactly 50% of the total. (Weird...)
Sheik and Diddy combined represent 20.4% of the total.

I'm surprised at the number of Yoshi players. Also Robin and Bowser Jr. for that matter, Peach to a lesser extent. ZSS has lower representation than I expected? Only 9 unrepresented characters, which is surprising in a good way. (Although no Shulk makes me sad.) I expect that lone Bowser player is hoping to capitalize on his buffs. And there's a Gunner player?

(EDIT: Turns out that perfectly even representation would be ~4 players per character. So by that measure Robin is exactly where he should be. Also Ryu, weirdly enough. Talk about two different ends of the spectrum there...)

Caveats that this was just for fun, is not intended to be a statistically rigorous analysis, and the post I cribbed the data from only lists one character per player and doesn't include characters for all players to begin with. Take with appropriate amounts of salt.

In the spoiler tag is just a bunch of character thumbnails, 1 thumbnail = 1 person. It's also not sorted. I'm leaving it here because the different, more visual representation may appeal to somebody. If you don't care about that sort of thing, there's no need to bother looking inside.

Edits for formatting and stuff.

Spoiler: Lots of character thumbnails.

Are these all characters that have made it into top 8 at a large tourney?

Sinister Slush I believe it is because ZeRo and others have said multiple times that he is the best. However, with the Wall having a breakthrough and Esam picking him up, he probably isn't anymore.

 

[LightLV]

I've seen him as ~13th after the nerfs (now not really sure anymore like I said, but probably still like something like that), and ~8th before the patch. He still racks up % super fast from mistakes and still has great combos, he just doesn't get free kills anymore from grabs, which is probably what you're referring to. He still gets super early KOs from mistakes / reads with his buffed (range + power) upB, though, and of course cyclone gimps.

His free kills from the grab also weren't really true on some characters (or at a really tight % window and you'd have to fulljump rising cyclone really early or something), like Sheik for example (that's one of the reasons why I thought the Sheik MU didn't really get worse at first). Some others were pretty free, though.

Yeah, also he lost alot of representation after the nerf happened simply off kneejerk alone, which will undoubtedly skew results a
bit. Grab-to-kill or simply Grab > Kill setups are pretty much a staple of top-tiers in this game. Bowser has been seeing some pretty nice results increase off his new Upthrow > Uair buff alone.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sinister Slush I believe it is because ZeRo and others have said multiple times that he is the best. However, with the Wall having a breakthrough and Esam picking him up, he probably isn't anymore.

Like I said lazy people or sheep.
As for ESAM his best accomplishment is taking a game off zero I guess? That's it really.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Like I said lazy people or sheep.
As for ESAM his best accomplishment is taking a game off zero I guess? That's it really.

He has been using his Yoshi quite a bit. It almost beat MVD in a video he made the other day. They were training or something and Yoshi took off a game or two.

I expect that we will be seeing more of Yoshi at G3. It is definetly one of the better ones, and I have watched, Sky, The Wall and Raptor multiple times.

 

[Sinister Slush]

New year, New National.
Genesis 3 is basically the end all moment for Yoshi kind of, if nobody does well here despite the decent representation this time around compared to MLG EVO etc. then he most likely won't get that much play at top level as people used to say he should've gotten back then in Diddy era when he was thrown around in top 3 and he'll just kinda be there under 15+ other characters based on peoples opinions.

We all prayin'

Spoiler

Unless the patch gives a little nudge to Yoshi's throw game like DK Bowser Robin etc. lol

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Are these all characters that have made it into top 8 at a large tourney?

It's simply a tally of the characters that will be used in pools at Genesis, as counted from the post I quoted, followed by words of observation and largely-baseless speculation. Nothing more or less. Also note my disclaimer near the end.

 

[Radical Larry]

There is a tournament coming up that's remotely close to me, in Ruston. I'm going to at least train and try there, see what I can do.
I'm bound to place well in the tournament for Smash 4 there, but as for Melee and Project M, even though I'll enter those, I have no hope of winning. But my main focus is Smash 4 there.

I just want to better my Link to points better than he is now, is all I'm trying to do. The tournament is a good way to start.

 

[Nobie]

Abadango has a new tier list out: https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/686912695019253760

Pits are top 15, Bowser above DK, and other shenanigans.

 

[Radical Larry]

Abadango has a new tier list out: https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/686912695019253760

Pits are top 15, Bowser above DK, and other shenanigans.

Where's Link at? (I can't manage to open up the status)

 

[Interrobang!?]

This is a very good question. Japan's results definitely do get recognition over here in the west, but it ultimately doesn't impact too much on us because we're playing to a different meta than them: their relevant characters may differ from ours, because they favour a different kind of game than we do. It's important to note that Pit is very highly regarded in Japan, for sure, but it's worth remembering that the context isn't quite the same and western results will have a greater impact on western tier lists.

It just takes a few good results in the right place to get people to pay attention (see: Dr Mario after MLG, potentially Samus right now), and even if the immediate hype dies down shortly after the fact, it may encourage people to try the characters out for themselves and see what they can do. If Genesis goes well for the Pits, the results and awareness generated will be a great help for their meta.

One of the top players in the UK at the moment is Plastic Poptart, who predominantly uses Pit. His results are on an upward curve recently too, he's clearly been working hard with them and it's always fun to watch him play.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] decent representation this time around compared to MLG [...]

Depends on what kind of results you're expecting. ESAM can make it into the top 8 with a Yoshi secondary and The Wall ... idk how highly I'd rate him. Depending on how many people make it into the final bracket he might not make it that far after all. So realistically Yoshi shouldn't be expected to do that well. His representation ... is OK this time around, I'm carefully optimistic but I think it's gonna be Cloud or MK that will take the spotlight, maybe Ryu.

 

[Jamurai]

Abadango has a new tier list out: https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/686912695019253760

Pits are top 15, Bowser above DK, and other shenanigans.

Not seeing how Cloud or MK are better characters than Ryu. Also G&W's placement is interesting. Other than that I like it.

REMEMBER: UNORDERED WITHIN TIERS.
(I say this cause sometimes people don't read it properly and then complain that their main is 3 spots too low.)

 

[Z1GMA]

Smash BMI

It'd be interesting if someone could make a BMI List of all characters.
But rather than measuring the weight through height, measuring the weight through size/frame.

Bowser would probably not be at the top when it comes to Smash BMI, and Jigglypuff would probably not be at the bottom.

Anyone up for it?

 

[Jams.]

I think the one thing that confuses me and many other Yoshi players to this day is why people say Sky is the best Yoshi player in the world still.
He went to apex and that's it, yet he's praised. Is it cause he's Sky? There's now legitimate Yoshi players to point at and say they might be the best after a year into the game, c'mon... and I don't mean just 2 or 3 I'm talking 6 or so too.


I'm not talking about solely this post in particular though before I get ravaged by the mad dogs, just mean everybody in general. (most recent example, Nairo's tweet apparently from what somebody linked last night)

It's tossed around so much I almost feel like it's a meme that a lot of people have just latched onto similar to better nerf greninja. Just the easiest thing to say instead of having to do any research on anyone, the default basically.
"He plays Zero a lot so he must be good, he uploaded a friendly he beat him in!" Just like the meme that Dunkey is better than Sky after uploadin' matches only the donkster won.
Or similar to Shulk commentators, THE WIND MONADO.

Misinformation.

I just included him because he was projected to advance from this pool in losers bracket, so he is likely the second or third seed for this pool. My friend eliminated him at EVO, so I have no illusions about his skill level. I feel that The Wall and Raptor are the two best Yoshis in NA.

Some of the bracket projections are very strange. For instance, Stark (NorCal rank 17) got a seed while Sean (NorCal rank 9) didn't and got put into one of the most stacked round 1 pools (Sean seems to have slipped through the cracks as far as NorCal seeded players go). A player called FMAX from Oregon is projected to advance, whereas Oregon's second ranked player Justice wasn't given a seed. League of Legends live balance team member Scarizard also got a seed, which I found both amusing and bemusing.

 

[Radical Larry]

Smash BMI

It'd be interesting if someone could make a BMI List of all characters.
But rather than measuring the weight through height, measuring the weight through size/frame.

Bowser would probably not be at the top when it comes to Smash BMI, and Jigglypuff would probably not be at the bottom.

Anyone up for it?

Seems like a unique idea. I'd go for it.

 

[Zelder]

Abadongo's tier list - Cloud on the same level as Shiek & ZSS is a bold claim. So bold that I might even say it's laughable.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Smash BMI

It'd be interesting if someone could make a BMI List of all characters.
But rather than measuring the weight through height, measuring the weight through size/frame.

Bowser would probably not be at the top when it comes to Smash BMI, and Jigglypuff would probably not be at the bottom.

Anyone up for it?

I've tried doing something like this using size and weight as factors but I was never happy with it for one reason or another. Charizard, Wario, Villager, Mega Man and Pikachu had very favorable values, Mewtwo, Rosalina, ZSS, Marcina and a few others had pretty bad ones.

 

[HoSmash4]

One of the top players in the UK at the moment is Plastic Poptart, who predominantly uses Pit. His results are on an upward curve recently too, he's clearly been working hard with them and it's always fun to watch him play.

He's using ZSS vs sheik/sonic/zss now so Very good new player though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why does it sound like you guys are crying that cloud isn't broken enough?

 

[Radical Larry]

Abadongo's tier list - Cloud on the same level as Shiek & ZSS is a bold claim. So bold that I might even say it's laughable.

Cloud's placements in things are questionable right now, so we don't really have any certainty where he is. But I know he's not going to be Shiek and ZSS level. I believe he's going to be the middle man between Ike and Link in the upper middle/lower high tier. He's got a lot of hindrances holding him back from top tier positions.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I was gonna hold off on saying something like that Zelder , but yeah, that is pretty damn ridiculous. There is no way in hell Cloud is in top 5. Not even in the top 10 imo; he's skirting somewhere around it.

Emblem Lord

Because Cloud isn't broken?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Radical Larry]

I was gonna hold off on saying something like that Zelder , but yeah, that is pretty damn ridiculous. There is no way in hell Cloud is in top 5. Not even in the top 10 imo; he's skirting somewhere around it.

Emblem Lord

Because Cloud isn't broken?

Smooth Criminal

He's probably in the position 20 to 21, which is above Link, below Ike and Meta Knight. I don't see him getting past 18th, however. He does have a lot going for him, I admit, but that recovery and some poor frame data, a terrible throw combo game, as well as two attacks that can literally be escaped from (Cross Slash and D-Smash with the right DI) will hold him back in the long run.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's my point. Feels like several of you wish he was.

 

[Radical Larry]

That's my point. Feels like several of you wish he was.

I don't. I feel like he kind of needs a Limit Charge nerf by doubling the required time to charge and decreasing the amount you receive when damaged. He's got great Limits, but when he gets the opponent far enough away, he can just safely use that without any hesitation, and unless you're Sonic or Captain Falcon or a projectile character, you won't be a problem to Cloud doing that.

 

[Interrobang!?]

He's using ZSS vs sheik/sonic/zss now so Very good new player though.

Saw him repping ZSS at Meltdown last night - he looked pretty dominant, but there were a few... questionable plays.

 

[C0rvus]

If you increase the time it takes for Cloud to charge, you will only really increase the amount of time he's going to camp.

 

[Zelder]

That's my point. Feels like several of you wish he was.

Nah, I get salty enough every time a shoryuken takes me to my maker at 70% or I spend ten seconds chasing down a Sonic for a second of interaction. We don't need anymore third party gods imo.

 

[Radical Larry]

If you increase the time it takes for Cloud to charge, you will only really increase the amount of time he's going to camp.

Well, give him more incentive to try attacking by swapping his "being attacked" and "attack" charge states? Besides that point, he can't camp forever against all the characters. Even Ganondorf himself, as slow as he is, can find a way to get to Cloud.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah, I get salty enough every time a shoryuken takes me to my maker at 70% or I spend ten seconds chasing down a Sonic for a second of interaction. We don't need anymore third party gods imo.

 

[Luigi player]

Abadongo's tier list - Cloud on the same level as Shiek & ZSS is a bold claim. So bold that I might even say it's laughable.

Abadango also retweeted Shus Tierlist, which has Cloud even as top 4.
Clouds amazing results can't just be a fluke and it's pretty obvious already that he's a really good character. Easily seeable to be in top 10, from results only one could arguably see him as top 5..

 

[Sinister Slush]

Depends on what kind of results you're expecting.

Top 16 could be ok.

 

[LancerStaff]

Cloud, with the likes of Sonic and MK? Cloud, a tier above Ryu and Fox? Heck, being a tier above Mario and Pit seems like a stretch.

I still think Cloud's in a spot like Ness is, where he's very definitely not hard to use but has several flaws which hold him back, and you absolutely need to understand these flaws to win.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yes I'm jealous of them. After all, I just try and try with my characters and end up nowhere, while they get to have all of the tournaments to their discretion. Do you think I like being stuck in some deadbeat state that has so little representatives, that I try at least making a name for myself by trying to play a character like Link? Do you think I like staying at home watching tournaments instead of participating in them? Or that I like playing online mode, very little amounts of others and have laggy Anther matches?

Well I don't, okay? Do you know why day after day I attempt to try giving out arguments that I want to make valid, but always fall short? It's because I can't find ways to actually express them into a legitimate argument, I always fall short. I have trouble in everything in Smash, then when it comes to when I finally find something interesting that could make a character better, I always manage to screw THAT up! ZeRo makes it seem so easy to play this game, so easy to make arguments, well look at me, I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum here. Even if I've had over a year's experience in this game, I just can't get better with Anthers. I want to go to tournaments with people, actual ones, but I never have the funding nor the transportation needed.

I'm jealous that they can manage to do that, I'm jealous they can make arguments and gameplay seem valid and easy, but look where I'm at, I can't make anything happen.

And even when I try fixing the mistakes, they already happened.

Don't give up dawg. Your priorities for competitive smash needs to be this:

1.) play for fun
2.) play to learn
3.) play to win

And only in that order. Take a break from smash if you have to, take a break from games if you have to. But don't let these problems get the best of you.

Abadango has a new tier list out: https://twitter.com/Abadangowario/status/686912695019253760

Pits are top 15, Bowser above DK, and other shenanigans.

The Japanese don't love greninja either guys.

 

[Asdioh]

or I spend ten seconds chasing down a Sonic for a second of interaction.

Right? Ugh.


Since we were talking about Cloud's neutral a bit ago, how bad is Fair as a spacing option? The range+high damage made it seem like it was pretty safe on shield to me, but I don't know for sure. I haven't gotten to play a Cloud offline yet, unfortunately.

There's now legitimate Yoshi players

I know Smashladder obviously isn't the best source of info, but I've started playing there again, and at one point, about 7 of my previous 15 matches were Yoshi players, and most of them were pretty good. I didn't even know there were that many Yoshi players in the world. I hated it at first, but I definitely got better at the matchup eventually. Wifi Yoshi Bomb is still destroyer of worlds, regardless of how prepared I am for it.


Speaking of Smashladder, I exclusively play Kirby on there, and in the past, I've just gotten frustrated with how bad he is (and wifi stuff) and would always stop playing. This time, however, I feel his Upthrow buff has made a major impact. It helps me win sets, and if you were to look at previous patch matches of basically any Kirby, there are plenty instances where a lost game could have been won if he had this stronger Upthrow. The change made a real difference. On the other hand, his weaknesses are still obvious (to those that know how to exploit him) so I'm not surprised to see Kirby so low on Abadango's tier list. I'm not even sure where he fits anymore.

 

[FullMoon]

It's interesting how Abadango has such a low opinion of Ness.