Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Eugene Wang]

Generally speaking, how do I tell the difference between mediocre play, good play, and great play? Above the point where players stop making obvious mistakes like spamming exploitable moves, it's hard for me to tell between skill levels.

 

[Z1GMA]

I don't have any list to share. All I did was taking a character's height and divide it by his weight and use that value as BMI. But it's really not a good method tbh. Bowser Jr doesn't have a particularly high value because he's a quite tall character.

B Jr might be taller than I'd like to imagine, I guess.
However, the whole hitbox of a character should be measured rather than just their height.
I might not mean that much of a difference in 1on1,
but certainly in 2on2 where you get hit in the back more often. Ganon is not as much of a combo-doll as Bowser is in 2on2, for example.

 

[Yonder]

This was before he was released

Worst I heard was like, mid tier. Cloud is the best swordie by a reasonably large margin, with Ike next trailing behind...unless Corrin upsets this balance and dethrones Cloud.

 

[Latias]

Worst I heard was like, mid tier. Cloud is the best swordie by a reasonably large margin, with Ike next trailing behind...unless Corrin upsets this balance and dethrones Cloud.

I doubt that will happen, Corrin looks mediocre from what I've seen in the analysis videos that have been posted.

 

[Nu~]

I doubt that will happen, Corrin looks mediocre from what I've seen in the analysis videos that have been posted.

Same things were said about cloud.

I would love if people stopped trying to gather frame data and run speeds from 30fps trailers

 

[Nobie]

Abadango thinks Cloud is on the same level as Sheik and ZSS.

No.

He MIGHT be top tier. But equal to the queens?

No.

I think it's more telling that he put other characters in A+ tier as well. I think the idea is that even if Sheik and ZSS have advantages, they're not so high up that they can be separated from the other top characters by an entire tier.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It all depends on if Corrin was designed to be a 1v1 character. Bayonetta looks like that, but Corrin might be more FFA oriented.

 

[DanGR]

Alright so no complaints/comments about MK being 3rd on Abadango's tier list. I'm glad we're all in agreement he's top 5 material.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly with the way the meta is evolving, abusing overtuned neutral options and converting that into a confirm or a mix-up scenario that can kill/lead to easily abusable advantage situation where you can easily cover multiple options, MK is looking stronger and stronger.

Neutral is average but when one hit can clench a stock, he forces his opponent to be perfect or they die. Combine that with a top tier disadvantage state and recovery...yeah you are looking at a top 5 contender imo.

 

[Y2Kay]

In regards to edge guarding Ness:

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly with the way the meta is evolving, abusing overtuned neutral options and converting that into a confirm or a mix-up scenario that can kill/lead to easily abusable advantage situation where you can easily cover multiple options, MK is looking stronger and stronger.

Neutral is average but when one hit can clench a stock, he forces his opponent to be perfect or they die. Combine that with a top tier disadvantage state and recovery...yeah you are looking at a top 5 contender imo.

Yeah like, I'm not so sure about Meta Knight anymore. I feel like 3rd wouldn't surprise me about him. While I doubt anything is gonna change about him, it's kinda weird.

I think he's like the only character in the game that can reliably kill at like, 20% or something. Guess we'll see in time if it's as absurd as it could potentially be, heh.

His neutral is his only "weakness" and by that it's like, just average. Not actually bad, just...below average.

 

[ARISTOS]

Countered (explains itself): (I think)

Peach's Toad vs Ness's recovery is weird in that sometimes Ness will hit the toad and still fly past Peach while sometimes he'll be countered (and die)

Peach can usually edgeguard Ness pretty well though, turnips can cover the DJ back to ledge after which he can either be countered (safe, but doesn't always work) or fair'd (living life on the edge, but will likely lead to a stock).

His neutral is his only "weakness" and by that it's like, just average. Not actually bad, just...below average.

Wouldn't really even call neutral below average. It is pretty decent.

 

[Nu~]

Yeah like, I'm not so sure about Meta Knight anymore. I feel like 3rd wouldn't surprise me about him. While I doubt anything is gonna change about him, it's kinda weird.

I think he's like the only character in the game that can reliably kill at like, 20% or something. Guess we'll see in time if it's as absurd as it could potentially be, heh.

His neutral is his only "weakness" and by that it's like, just average. Not actually bad, just...below average.

Seeing abadango practice kill confirms from 0% out of down throw on villager reminds me of why I dislike this character's design

 

[19_]

Honestly with the way the meta is evolving, abusing overtuned neutral options and converting that into a confirm or a mix-up scenario that can kill/lead to easily abusable advantage situation where you can easily cover multiple options, MK is looking stronger and stronger.

Neutral is average but when one hit can clench a stock, he forces his opponent to be perfect or they die. Combine that with a top tier disadvantage state and recovery...yeah you are looking at a top 5 contender imo.

I mean he is called METAkinght for a reason

 

[TTTTTsd]

Seeing abadango practice kill confirms from 0% out of down throw on villager reminds me of why I dislike this character's design

Sighhhhh.

Well, what can be done? Just gotta deal. Play super patient and lame-o heh.

 

[Ffamran]

Sighhhhh.

Well, what can be done? Just gotta deal. Play super patient and lame-o heh.

Wait... I thought playing patient was the optimal play style for Meta Knight. >_>

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wait... I thought playing patient was the optimal play style for Meta Knight. >_>

Well you just do the same thing and....wait. It's boring but I imagine it's the most effective way. Weighing the risk and reward in my head, this ends up being the best possible way of going about it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Generally speaking, how do I tell the difference between mediocre play, good play, and great play? Above the point where players stop making obvious mistakes like spamming exploitable moves, it's hard for me to tell between skill levels.

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

Feast your eyes on the bible of fighting games

EDIT: just got done reading all of your guys' posts. Wouldn't it be funny if Metaknight became #1 in the game once again lol *anxiety instantly intensifies*?

 

[TTTTTsd]

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

Feast your eyes on the bible of fighting games

EDIT: just got done reading all of your guys' posts. Wouldn't it be funny if Metaknight became #1 in the game once again lol *anxiety instantly intensifies*?

Could you imagine? After all of the attempts to balance him, he proves to be impossible!

But nah to do that they'd have to make Sheik's neutral worse, haha. Still a funny thought lol.

 

[ARISTOS]

EDIT: just got done reading all of your guys' posts. Wouldn't it be funny if Metaknight became #1 in the game once again lol *anxiety instantly intensifies*?

pls no thank you. don't even joke like that

 

[L9999]

Peach's Toad vs Ness's recovery is weird in that sometimes Ness will hit the toad and still fly past Peach while sometimes he'll be countered (and die)

Peach can usually edgeguard Ness pretty well though, turnips can cover the DJ back to ledge after which he can either be countered (safe, but doesn't always work) or fair'd (living life on the edge, but will likely lead to a stock.

That's why I also placed Peach in Raw and Item/Projectile. She can counter, but her counter is pure disrespect. Peach can snipe him with turnips or just go raw and Fair him. But she still has the option to counter anyways.

 

[Planty]

Honestly though, if MK really can CONSISTENTLY kill you at 0% and has the means to put you in that situation, he really could be #1 in the game. It'd be sort of like but with fewer exploitable weaknesses.

 

[wedl!!]

As long as Sheik has oppressive neutral against the large majority of the cast (including Meta Knight) I really highly doubt that he'll be #1 unless there's some changes.

 

[Nobie]

Smash 4 Sheik has an oppressive neutral. Smash 4 Meta Knight has a ridiculous advantaged state.

Brawl Meta Knight had an oppressive...everything...

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

It'd be sort of like .

*Sniff*
You reminded me of my favorite characters who are gone

......Idk why, but you made me actually want to try and play MK.......ima go to their boards, but is he in any way simple to learn? Complex characters aren't my type

 

[Planty]

*Sniff*
You reminded me of my favorite characters who are gone

......Idk why, but you made me actually want to try and play MK.......ima go to their boards, but is he in any way simple to learn? Complex characters aren't my type

He's really straightforward, but the combos that kill early are super tough to do and very % specific (like against Rosalina, for example, if she's at 5%, you need 6 Uairs into shuttle loop but if she's at 10% you need 5 Uairs into shuttle loop. That changes with rage.)

Why did you play Ice Climbers if you dislike complexity?

 

[Y2Kay]

*Sniff*
You reminded me of my favorite characters who are gone

......Idk why, but you made me actually want to try and play MK.......ima go to their boards, but is he in any way simple to learn? Complex characters aren't my type

Don't let the boards lie to you dawg. MK is a pain to learn. His gameplay may appear simplistic but he's definitely not brain dead.

Edit: Huh, the greninja main got greninja'd. The irony.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I'm not sure how MetaKnight exactly works this game when it comes to his kill% ranges but...

This is going to sound stupid but I think a viable option vs MetaKnight is for you in hit yourself out of his kill % ranges. Characters like can Flare Blitz/Throw bomb on self to hold onto a stock a little more longer. This option of course isn't too important now, but when it comes to the point in the meta where MK mains can consistently perform Aba like combos.... Slap yourself.

 

[S_B]

MK presents a weird situation...

As his meta gets better (and it will only get better over time), my guess is that MK players will be able to more reliably land these Uair strings into kill confirm, meaning he may wind up being "oppressively good" in this game as well.

But neutering that combo would basically leave him in a terrible state...

I kinda hope Sakurai does something like change Uair's BKB and KBG so that it doesn't start comboing into itself until most characters are at least at 70-80%.

That way, MK actually has to do some work to get people to kill %, but he still has that confirm waiting at those %s.

I'm not sure how MetaKnight exactly works this game when it comes to his kill% ranges but...

This is going to sound stupid but I think a viable option vs MetaKnight is for you in hit yourself out of his kill % ranges. Characters like can Flare Blitz/Throw bomb on self to hold onto a stock a little more longer. This option of course isn't too important now, but when it comes to the point in the meta where MK mains can consistently perform Aba like combos.... Slap yourself.

Ha! I was actually just thinking about how Zard might make for a MK counter...

 

[David Viran]

MK presents a weird situation...

As his meta gets better (and it will only get better over time), my guess is that MK players will be able to more reliably land these Uair strings into kill confirm, meaning he may wind up being "oppressively good" in this game as well.

But neutering that combo would basically leave him in a terrible state...

I kinda hope Sakurai does something like change Uair's BKB and KBG so that it doesn't start comboing into itself until most characters are at least at 70-80%.

That way, MK actually has to do some work to get people to kill %, but he still has that confirm waiting at those %s.



Ha! I was actually just thinking about how Zard might make for a MK counter...

We should definitely wait for counter play to develop further before plotting nerfs.

 

[Ulevo]

Killing at 0% against competent opponents will not consistently happen over time. Meta Knight also has specific weaknesses to his design that keep him from being a genuine top tier. His reward game mostly relies on the requirement that the oppnent fails to DI the hit confirm. One of the reasons why Captain Falcon is bad is because he gets very little off of his down throw if DI away is used. Meta Knight suffers a similar problem. He also is very vulnerable on the ledge. While he can always return to the stage, get on the stage can be challenging against characters like Zero Suit, Sheik, Villager, R.O.B. and any character with good ledge coverage. His neutral, while not bad when playing against reasonable characters, is very restricting against characters who have exceptional neutral options. His reward game does not mean anything if you can never win neutral, or if your opponent can DI your confirms upon losing neutral.

He's great, but once players properly optimize his punishes, players are going to be forced to learn how to avoid dying to his lethal combos and that is when he will likely settle into his 'proper' tier placement.

 

[Blobface]

Cloud might be top tier on paper, but I think he'll always be hampered competitively by how his stocks can pop like bubble wrap due to his recovery. That may not matter in a single set, but in a tournament context consistency is a big deal.

 

[S_B]

We should definitely wait for counter play to develop further before plotting nerfs.

Has "plotting" nerfs ever hurt anything?

But here's another question on that same subject...

In a world where ZSS and Sheik (and maybe Rosa) are nerfed down to reasonable levels, would MK really need a kill confirm?

It's pretty clear from his design that he's a character with a decent while not amazing neutral but an absolutely STELLAR edgeguarding game. Naturally, this edgeguarding game doesn't help him against ZSS and Sheik because they're both extremely difficult (and dangerous) to edgeguard.

But if they could both also be edgeguarded in a manner similar to most of the cast, how badly would MK need that confirm?

The current issue is that we're weighing every single character on their ability to handle (or be handled by) the top 2-3 characters in the game. If Sheik and ZSS weren't as overwhelming as they are now, I think MK could be viable even without the confirm (and maybe a few small buffs here and there to aid him in getting opponents off the stage).

 

[LancerStaff]

Same things were said about cloud.

I would love if people stopped trying to gather frame data and run speeds from 30fps trailers

I remember saying that Cloud's viability was going to hinge on wether or not he had a manual charge to camp with... Which he does.

 

[TDK]

Outside of the non-limit recovery, Cloud looks decent. As a thought, why are people not just saving limit for Cloud's recovery, instead using it for a kill confirm, which is cool and all, but it opens up your extremely gimpable recovery?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...because you don't actually waste Limit on **** like that? Because it's easily obtainable? It's not a "one-and-done" thing like other resources in this game, so you can't really "waste" it in the conventional sense.

Smooth Criminal

 

[JesterJaded]

IMO most people can't just not use a move that kills super early. Like KO punch, you just have to be careful not to whiff your limit breaks. Saving to combo into it is ideal.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Cloud players have found ways to make their recovery safer. It isn't a hopless cause.

 

[Teshie U]

A Kill confirm is hardly a waste in singles. If you KO someone with something other than Limit Up B, you have plenty of time to charge 50-60% of your limit while they respawn. You should never really get gimped because you just killed your opponent.

Limit Up B is actually gimpable too. His airspeed alone already keeps his recovery out of the gutter in general.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Cloud players have found ways to make their recovery safer. It isn't a hopless cause.

Mainly stalls when coming in from on high, like using Cross Slash and Blade Beam, that are bolstered by his innate airspeed, and ways of carefully navigating Climhazzard to where Cloud does indeed grab the ledge with some consistency (I've actually been labbing this one out especially because it's absolutely crucial imo). Having the ability to walljump is also super helpful. Then you add on Limit's changes to his gravity and whatnot, and you end up with some decent options.

And yeah, what Teshie said is also 100% true: Limit Climhazzard is very gimpable. Anticipate his route and throw out a quick and/or meaty aerial, and you'll tag Cloud out of it straightaway.

Smooth Criminal