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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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LancerStaff

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Means you should use something that ledge snaps to grab the ledge out of an aerial or double jump.

*shrugs* Known about it for a while now myself. When arrow planking as either Pit you can use an Arm to regrab the ledge as fast as possible.
 

Fatmanonice

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Uh...Sonic and WFT have projectiles they can just drop into the path of PKT2 and chop the distance off.

Ness isn't easy to gimp unless you can reliably overpower his aerials and floatiness. If you can tackle his airdodge, ANYONE can easily gimp the Up B.

People look at Up B/Side B options in a vacuum and declare a recovery bad, but its not all about distance or ledge snaps. Having a good Uair/Fair/Bair and a good airspeed helps your recovery alot more than a good up B.
For :4wiifit:, if they recover low, trying to intercept PKT2 with the soccer ball or sun salutation is difficult and risky. If they recover high (which is usually a terrible option for Ness anyways) or mid way, it's an option but there's still the chance of Ness baiting the sun salutation to use PSI Magnet. As for the Soccer ball drop, the timing is extremely precise to actually use this as a gimping tool from above. First you have to be the right distance from the ledge so you don't accidentally SD when you cancel the headbutt, then you have to predict when Ness is actually going to use PKT2 so you have to be just the right height to let the ball drop right in his path, and then you have to worry about a potential ledge trump if your timing was off because he's likely going straight for the edge. For Sonic, it's significantly safer because he launches himself so high but you still have to have the timing down pat for the spring to hit him to cut the distance of his recovery or even just to stun him a little bit so he has to reset it.
 

S_B

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I was thinking about the metagame on the whole and how the meta of a new SSB title (or any fighting game, I suppose) is a lot like growing up...

It starts out and we're basically kids, being all "I'm gonna main Duck Hunt!" or "I'm gonna main Robin!" and everything seems fine because the harsh reality of "the game" hasn't really sunk in yet.

Then some time passes and we come to realize just how unlikely those "dreams" really are, looking back and wondering at how naive we were.

The key reason I want to see the top tiers toned down is because I die a little inside every time I find out that a previously devout _______ main has switched to Sheik or ZSS. It's in the same vein of finding out that an old friend who had a great voice and always dreamed of a singing career quit and went to law school instead.

The worst part of it is when these people give up on these characters, that basically dramatically reduces the chances of that character's meta being fully developed for YEARS...

So sure, we see complaints about balance patches, but the truth is that a powerful character being toned down and a weaker character being toned up can help to redistribute the people working on the metas for these characters, and that's definitely a good thing.

Here's hoping that we see a few more balance patches that tone down the top tier before balancing ends forever...
 

PK Gaming

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I was thinking about the metagame on the whole and how the meta of a new SSB title (or any fighting game, I suppose) is a lot like growing up...

It starts out and we're basically kids, being all "I'm gonna main Duck Hunt!" or "I'm gonna main Robin!" and everything seems fine because the harsh reality of "the game" hasn't really sunk in yet.

Then some time passes and we come to realize just how unlikely those "dreams" really are, looking back and wondering at how naive we were.

The key reason I want to see the top tiers toned down is because I die a little inside every time I find out that a previously devout _______ main has switched to Sheik or ZSS. It's in the same vein of finding out that an old friend who had a great voice and always dreamed of a singing career quit and went to law school instead.

The worst part of it is when these people give up on these characters, that basically dramatically reduces the chances of that character's meta being fully developed for YEARS...

So sure, we see complaints about balance patches, but the truth is that a powerful character being toned down and a weaker character being toned up can help to redistribute the people working on the metas for these characters, and that's definitely a good thing.

Here's hoping that we see a few more balance patches that tone down the top tier before balancing ends forever...
just do it
 

Ropalme1914

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I just saw this video, and I think it would be useful to share it here, since he has interesting things about Ryu. (I may have written something wrong, because I am using the google translator)
 

Peppermint1201

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A stacked California weekly is going live soon (around 10:00 to 10:30 PM EST), featuring Ranai, Komorikiri, 9B, Ally, MJG, Shaky, and more talent from Japan, Australia and a Venezuelan player as well. I see an australian player named Ghost in the bracket, is that our very own @Ghostbone?

Bracket: http://www.scusmash.challonge.com/WW21S4

Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/smashatscu

I've heard this is Ranai and Komorikiri's first American tournament so make sure to watch.
 
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Das Koopa

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"Jigglypuff has a good matchup against Cloud"

commentary off to a great start i see
 

PK Gaming

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I was thinking about the metagame on the whole and how the meta of a new SSB title (or any fighting game, I suppose) is a lot like growing up...

It starts out and we're basically kids, being all "I'm gonna main Duck Hunt!" or "I'm gonna main Robin!" and everything seems fine because the harsh reality of "the game" hasn't really sunk in yet.

Then some time passes and we come to realize just how unlikely those "dreams" really are, looking back and wondering at how naive we were.

The key reason I want to see the top tiers toned down is because I die a little inside every time I find out that a previously devout _______ main has switched to Sheik or ZSS. It's in the same vein of finding out that an old friend who had a great voice and always dreamed of a singing career quit and went to law school instead.

The worst part of it is when these people give up on these characters, that basically dramatically reduces the chances of that character's meta being fully developed for YEARS...

So sure, we see complaints about balance patches, but the truth is that a powerful character being toned down and a weaker character being toned up can help to redistribute the people working on the metas for these characters, and that's definitely a good thing.

Here's hoping that we see a few more balance patches that tone down the top tier before balancing ends forever...
Serious answer time. I get where you're coming from but that sort of mentality only ends up limiting yourself as a player. Barring a few outliers, you can do well with characters who aren't strictly top tier, and we've seen it happen from time to time. It's a shame when "X" player drops "Y" character, but it's not something you should dwell on. I'm not sure I dig your analogy either... if your old friend went to law school and found success, is that necessarily a bad thing?

Pursuing dreams with reasonable expectations is absolutely possible.
 
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JesterJaded

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I was thinking about the metagame on the whole and how the meta of a new SSB title (or any fighting game, I suppose) is a lot like growing up...

It starts out and we're basically kids, being all "I'm gonna main Duck Hunt!" or "I'm gonna main Robin!" and everything seems fine because the harsh reality of "the game" hasn't really sunk in yet.

Then some time passes and we come to realize just how unlikely those "dreams" really are, looking back and wondering at how naive we were.

The key reason I want to see the top tiers toned down is because I die a little inside every time I find out that a previously devout _______ main has switched to Sheik or ZSS. It's in the same vein of finding out that an old friend who had a great voice and always dreamed of a singing career quit and went to law school instead.

The worst part of it is when these people give up on these characters, that basically dramatically reduces the chances of that character's meta being fully developed for YEARS...

So sure, we see complaints about balance patches, but the truth is that a powerful character being toned down and a weaker character being toned up can help to redistribute the people working on the metas for these characters, and that's definitely a good thing.

Here's hoping that we see a few more balance patches that tone down the top tier before balancing ends forever...
Considering the significantly large size of Smash 4's cast compared to other Smash titles, balancing the tier lists to where the gaps between upper-mid and top are reasonably small is the ideal approach for a healthy competitive scene, in my opinion; if within a cast of 58 characters the same matchup occurs in grand finals at a startling rate compared to other high tier characters (Sheik vs ZSS), there's an issue with balance, even if those two characters are #1 and #2 on the list.
 

AnEventHorizon

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"Jigglypuff has a good matchup against Cloud"

commentary off to a great start i see
I mean, there's no reason to write it off completely unless you've experienced and explored the matchup yourself. Just because Cloud is a better character doesn't mean he might not have bad interactions with worse characters (insert Dr. Mario reference here).

The commentator said that it was something you wouldn't expect unless you played the matchup yourself, so while at the same time I'm like 'how could Cloud lose to her?' I can also see how Jiggly floating just out of range of SH nair (which has a minimum of 16 frames of dead air for cloud if he doesnt want to incur landing lag) and floating back in to fair or bair punish could mess him up, how a shielded Cloud dtilt would open him up to easy rests, how Jiggly is finally glad everyone dies just about as quickly as her to finishing touch, and how Jiggly finally has someone new to properly go out there WOP style and gimp (just nair at the ledge would probably catch climhazard, limit or no).

Thinking on it more, Jiggly's probably fast enough in the air to float away from Cloud's uair juggles.

I just looked at Jiggly's frame data - why in the world does she have the awful airdodge and spotdodge starting frame (frame 4) usually reserved for super heavy characters? Like Bowser/Donkey Kong/Ganondorf/Dedede ... even Charizard has better startup on his dodges.

Looking into airdodges more, Ryu might have the worst in the game. Fewest I frames of anyone, frame 4 startup, almost the same endlag as the superheavies/Jiggly.
 
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HeavyLobster

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"Jigglypuff has a good matchup against Cloud"

commentary off to a great start i see
Well "good matchup" for Jigglypuff doesn't actually mean it's favorable for Puff, just that it's awkward for the opponent. Puff doesn't actually have good MUs so much as MUs that force the opponent to play differently than they normally would due to Puff's weird physics. It's probably one of Puff's best high tier MUs though.
 

TDK

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Well "good matchup" for Jigglypuff doesn't actually mean it's favorable for Puff, just that it's awkward for the opponent. Puff doesn't actually have good MUs so much as MUs that force the opponent to play differently than they normally would due to Puff's weird physics. It's probably one of Puff's best high tier MUs though.
Think of this like Young Link in Melee. He was often a counterpick character against Peach and Jigglypuff for a while, but still had a losing MU against them. It was just an MU that forced the Peach/Puff player to think more or was better than their alternatives.
 

C0rvus

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Well "good matchup" for Jigglypuff doesn't actually mean it's favorable for Puff, just that it's awkward for the opponent. Puff doesn't actually have good MUs so much as MUs that force the opponent to play differently than they normally would due to Puff's weird physics. It's probably one of Puff's best high tier MUs though.
Pretty much this. I used to play Jigglypuff, and she doesn't really beat anyone. But I could do well against most players simply due to them not being comfortable with Puff. You cannot combo her very much, and she moves about in an unorthodox manner that makes her hard to hit. I beat/took games off of local players who were better than me or played better characters with Puff, through their inexperience making them flounder enough for me to exploit.
 

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This Luigi rolled too much. Basically rolled into Komo a bunch of times.

Seems like spaced aerials would be better than rollrollroll
 

S_B

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if your old friend went to law school and found success, is that necessarily a bad thing?
He quit on the dream of doing what he loved in favor of doing something he knew would work (ie maining Sheik/ZSS).

What's sadder than that?

Pursuing dreams with reasonable expectations is absolutely possible.
Well, yeah. That's what most people maining characters below A tier are doing.
 

Das Koopa

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I feel like Duck Hunt could be a lot better if he could act out of his Up B and had a good kill throw

Mii Gunner Hype? :O

Edit: Rom looked solid with that Mii Gunner gameplay.
 
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Das Koopa

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Wtf Ranai that man had a family

That Villager pocket skill was absolutely insane.

Edit: Daigo beats a Cloud player rip
 
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Yonder

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Could anyone send me the stream link for Genesis I assume you are all commentating on?

My money is on a breakout Cloud myself...like the new Ike.
 
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Das Koopa

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Japan has walked in, kicked NorCal in the shin, and taken the trophy lol. No mercy. Even the Jigglypuff player put up a decent fight.
 
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Teshie U

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Duck Hunt is fine. Its not like his grab game is Fox level where you just never kill.
 

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What I get from the commentaries is that American players are truly unprepared for item play. Commentators got all jumpy because a character that can't spawn items is using them well.
:196:
 

Das Koopa

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There's some new tech. G&W Diver helmet repels Wario's Waft. +1 realism.
 

UberMadman

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There's some new tech. G&W Diver helmet repels Wario's Waft. +1 realism.
Clearly, his helmet is airtight.

Also, this commentary reminds me we need better Mii rulesets because HOLY HELL, if you can't even recognize Mii Gunner's fair, then clearly we need more people repping the character.
 

DunnoBro

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Duck Hunt is fine. Its not like his grab game is Fox level where you just never kill.
It's almost exactly fox's level.

Their fthrows kill at 185 and 190 right on the tip of the ledge (essentially the same), and DHD's uthrow kills at 215~. It's not as abysmal as fox's 250+ but this is nowhere near actually usable or "fine" regardless.
 

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Clearly, his helmet is airtight.

Also, this commentary reminds me we need better Mii rulesets because HOLY HELL, if you can't even recognize Mii Gunner's fair, then clearly we need more people repping the character.
Pretty sure this one tournament is not using G3's ruleset.
G3 banned any sort of modification, including appearance, and the Fighter had to be created out of a Guest Mii.
:196:
 

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Pretty sure this one tournament is not using G3's ruleset.
G3 banned any sort of modification, including appearance, and the Fighter had to be created out of a Guest Mii.
:196:
Yeah, but the problem was they literally spent the entire match saying "I think that's a fair... Nah, might be a neutral B. ...Oh, that jab looks bad", and stuff like that.
 

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9B's ranked 13th in Japan!?

America, Land of the Free.
 
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LRodC

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Why does the majority of America think that Duck Hunt is bad, but Japan thinks he's pretty good? Is there someone over there pushing his meta and winning enough for people to think that?

I know the meta is different there. But people wouldn't come to that conclusion without results regardless of how the meta is.
 
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Teshie U

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It's almost exactly fox's level.

Their fthrows kill at 185 and 190 right on the tip of the ledge (essentially the same), and DHD's uthrow kills at 215~. It's not as abysmal as fox's 250+ but this is nowhere near actually usable or "fine" regardless.
Also can throw people into the can.
 

Routa

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Yeah, but the problem was they literally spent the entire match saying "I think that's a fair... Nah, might be a neutral B. ...Oh, that jab looks bad", and stuff like that.
I think commentators could use some fixing. Their hitboxes don't match the visual effects.

There's some new tech. G&W Diver helmet repels Wario's Waft. +1 realism.
Hmm... That is rather interesting... G&W new Wario counter confirmed.
/s

Anyways Gunner's Fair is Villager's Fair on steroids. Very few moves are as good as his Fair in neutral.
 
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UberMadman

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Anyways Gunner's Fair is Villager's Fair on steroids. Very few moves are as good as his Fair in neutral.
This isn't really an apt comparison because while Gunner's Fair autospaces and the projectile is faster, Villager's Fair kills on startup.
 

Teshie U

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He was just talking about a neutral spacing game. Thats obviously the most similar fair (as its new for characters to shoot stuff for normals).

Gunner Fair trades all the power for the oppression of a transcendent, retreating shot that is also pretty safe close up.

Villager fair/bair is more versatile, with usable autocancels for neutral and combos and much better endlag in the air.

Ofcourse if Gunner fair actually set up for anything, it would be kind of broken. Its pretty much a toon link bomb.
 

UberMadman

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After losing fist game while Ranai's Villager was at 150+% on his final stock, Komorikiri's Cloud just double 2-stocked Ranai's Villager.

But I mean, clearly people just don't know the matchup, right? :p
 
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